From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Mar 31 19:28:55 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j310SsS4010035 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:28:55 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j310RhLV001217 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:27:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j310Rckj066935; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:27:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web31505.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web31505.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.198.134]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j310RZwT066823 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:27:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bella_lucia_da_verona@yahoo.com.au) Received: (qmail 75013 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Apr 2005 00:27:30 -0000 Message-ID: <20050401002730.75011.qmail@web31505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [203.23.152.26] by web31505.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 01 Apr 2005 10:27:30 EST Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 10:27:30 +1000 (EST) From: Bella Subject: Re: [h-cost] Mind Your Manners! To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi all, could someone please re-post the link to the 'Mind Your Manners' game? I thought I'd bookmarked it, but I find I was wrong. :-) I didn't get a chance to try it out and now I've even forgotten what museum it was located at. I only remember that it was a Canadian museum. Thanks! Bella Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Mar 31 20:05:57 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j3115vxV010274 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:05:57 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3114oLV004928 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:04:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j3114jiV096012; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:04:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from omta16.mta.everyone.net (sitemail2.everyone.net [216.200.145.36]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j3114hPI095934 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:04:43 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from lalahcatlady@netscape.com) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (bigiplb-dsnat [172.16.0.19]) by omta16.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28D763FE34 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:04:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id C47223976; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:04:38 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 17:04:38 -0800 (PST) From: Lalah To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fw: [Authentic_SCA] a litlle OT: Lessons from Sewing (humor) X-Originating-Ip: [64.12.116.136] X-Eon-Sig: AQI79nRCTJ4mAAlACwEAAAAB,4782e96be9a6f35d64389bf32f189994 Message-Id: <20050401010438.C47223976@sitemail.everyone.net> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Oh YES!!! Those are absolutely true. Thanks! Lalah, Never give up, Never surrender --- "Elizabeth Walpole" wrote: From: "Elizabeth Walpole" Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:04:39 +1000 To: "historic costume" , "Garb list" Subject: [h-cost] Fw: [Authentic_SCA] a litlle OT: Lessons from Sewing (humor) _____________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/emreg Netscape. Just the Net You Need. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Mar 31 20:21:00 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j311L0kc010330 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:21:00 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j311JtLV006141 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:19:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j311JdDG007283; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:19:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j311JbS5007205 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:19:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m215.in-tch.com [216.166.191.215]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j311Fco19432 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:15:38 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <424CA2ED.5020307@in-tch.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:25:01 -0700 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Use of "Reenactor"--slightly OT References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hey! I resemble that description, except for the snobbish part! Even if I never thought of myself as a reenactor in any sense, given the whole structural looseness of my experiences in the SCA (and lack of opportunity to do other historical time periods, etc.). I got to learn to spin flax last summer, and it's lots of fun. Bummer that I don't have any way to grow my own as well! --sue, actually spinning her own thread and making her own fabric for an early-period SCA outfit...say, 10th c. or so (well, slowly, but it *is* being done on a drop spindle) Chris Laning wrote: > That's the trouble, of course -- so many people use it to mean > completely different things. > > If, for instance, your concept of a "re-enactor" is "a snobbish and > overly picky person who obsesses about the spin direction and fiber > length of the linen thread used to stitch seams no one will ever see", > then obviously you're probably going to consider it unflattering . _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Mar 31 20:30:58 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j311UwFq010351 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:30:58 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j311TtLV006816 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:29:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j311Todg014368; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:29:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j311Tmpk014349 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:29:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m215.in-tch.com [216.166.191.215]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j311Pqo21511 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:25:52 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <424CA553.1010507@in-tch.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:35:15 -0700 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Bleach experiment, Elizabethan smock References: <200503311627.j2VGQURY007858@net.indra.com> <8C70456CB02B4AB-B40-5C46@mblk-r12.sysops.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <8C70456CB02B4AB-B40-5C46@mblk-r12.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I can agree with that, with some certainty. ;-) My hips/tummy weren't an issue, but my bust sure was! I needed so much extra room for the girls that my mockup ended with the "shoulder" seam at my elbows! What I ended up doing to fix it was look at all the extant shifts I could find from the St. Louis shirt forward into the 18th c. I found a couple of examples (mostly later) that showed a distinct, but subtle narrowing of the fabric just at the shoulders, so that's what I did. I marked the shoulder line on my body-rectangle, marked where my bust was (the point where I needed the full width available), and removed narrow wedges of fabric so that I essentially had two trapezoids, joined at the narrow ends (my shoulders). Other than that, I followed instructions as requested, and the shift turned out just fine. The fabric missing in the shoulder area isn't even visually noticeable when I'm wearing it. I don't recall for certain, but I may have had to readjust the sleeve length a bit to make them a little longer, but that was about it. --sue tearoses@aol.com wrote: > Judy -- I believe there is a note somewhere on Drea's site that the > smock generator can produce some weird results for those of us with > more ::ahem:: womanly proportions. I made one myself last year for > Halloween, and as I recall I had to alter the pattern a bit to make > it approach the proper proportions. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Mar 31 20:33:24 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j311XNQ3010354 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:33:23 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j311WNLV007001 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:32:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j311WMIn016294; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:32:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail7.mdx.safepages.com (mail7.mdx.safepages.com [216.127.133.22]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j311WK63016133 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:32:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from formfunc@formfunction.org) Received: by mail7.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix, from userid 1012) id C77FB1BCA93; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 01:32:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from compaqub (1Cust104.tnt2.ofallon.mo.da.uu.net [65.239.178.104]) by mail7.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B1EEC1BCA74 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 01:32:01 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <09fd01c5365a$c0f538a0$0400a8c0@compaqub> From: "E House" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Bleach experiment, Elizabethan smock Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:33:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO If we're talking about my experiment, it was sealed pretty tightly, but probably not completely air-tight. With a cat in the house, there's no way I'm going to leave anything uncovered that I don't want her to A) drink or B) knock over or C) knock over and then drink. The evaporation thing is interesting, though, since over-the-counter bleach is pretty dilute--maybe the actual bleachy part sort of evaporated within the closed system and condensed at the top of the container. -E (long time since I took them thar science classes...) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Mar 31 21:46:16 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j312kG1T010616 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:46:16 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j312j1LV013378 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:45:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j312imVj066866; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:44:48 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net (maynard.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.243]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j312ikbp066838 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:44:46 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from claning@igc.org) Received: from 209-165-47-073.jps.net ([209.165.47.73] helo=[209.165.34.26]) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1DHC9J-0001iK-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:44:41 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: claning@pop.igc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <424C1A03.8080509@earthlink.net> References: <424C1A03.8080509@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:17:14 -0800 To: Historical Costume From: Chris Laning Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Wool denim X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 8:40 AM -0700 3/31/05, Wicked Frau wrote: >Fashion fabrics club has some interesting wool denim blends. I know >they are not considered "period" (1400-1650). But what exactly is >denim weave? Just curious if it was something that was achievable >during the time and they didn't have it, or??? As others have said, most denim is a simple 2/2 twill. I _think_ (though I'm not sure) that one of the things that makes it specifically "denim" is that the warp and weft are usually different colors, such as green and white, blue and white, or black and white. (I once found some denim that I didn't realize was actually black and orange till I got it home and saw the edges raveling. From a distance it was just a nice brown!) My copy of Fairchild's dictionary of textiles seems to support this interpretation, too. -- ____________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning - Davis, California + http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Mar 31 22:49:05 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j313n53P010913 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:49:05 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j313lbLV020878 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:47:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j313lS79009977; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:47:28 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.inreach.com (209-142-2-36.stk.inreach.net [209.142.2.36]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j313lPwM009921 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:47:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from dch@inreach.com) Received: (qmail 6586 invoked from network); 1 Apr 2005 04:01:52 -0000 Received: from [209.142.2.163] (HELO www.inreach.com) (209.142.2.163) by smtp.inreach.com (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:01:52 -0800 Received: from 24.4.69.40 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dch@inreach.com) by www.inreach.com with HTTP; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:47:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1575.24.4.69.40.1112327244.squirrel@www.inreach.com> In-Reply-To: <1c4.254f1f3f.2f7dc6e0@aol.com> References: <1c4.254f1f3f.2f7dc6e0@aol.com> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:47:24 -0800 (PST) From: "Diana Habra" To: "Historical Costume" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Sizing up Uniquely You X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hello everyone! I bought a Uniquely You dress form and cover when I was several sizes smaller. Now I am a real size 18 (eek!) but the covers only go up to size 14. Has anybody tried to size one up from the 14? Any suggestions? Diana www.RenaissanceFabrics.net "Everything for the Costumer" _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Apr 1 00:06:51 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j3156os9011218 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 00:06:51 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3155XLV026235 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:05:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j3155OTp061052; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:05:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail12.mdx.safepages.com (mail12.mdx.safepages.com [216.127.154.242]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j3154u1G060791 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:05:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from formfunc@formfunction.org) Received: by mail12.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix, from userid 1012) id 64093B8D5; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 05:04:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from compaqub (1Cust56.tnt1.ofallon.mo.da.uu.net [65.239.148.56]) by mail12.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6F25EB8D7 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 05:04:48 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <0a0b01c53678$78f0f580$0400a8c0@compaqub> From: "E House" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20050401002730.75011.qmail@web31505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Mind Your Manners! Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:05:47 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bella" > could someone please re-post the link to the 'Mind Your Manners' game? > I thought I'd bookmarked it, but I find I was wrong. :-) www.mccord-museum.qc.ca/en/keys/games/game_0/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Apr 1 00:10:56 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j315AtYj011229 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 00:10:56 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j315A2LV026684 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:10:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j315A27R064044; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:10:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d21.mx.aol.com (imo-d21.mx.aol.com [205.188.144.207]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j315A0TT063921 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:10:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from Theresathreadgi@aol.com) Received: from Theresathreadgi@aol.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r5.33.) id 6.ce.659a1b33 (4222) for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 00:09:46 -0500 (EST) From: Theresathreadgi@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 00:09:45 EST Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Bleach experiment, Elizabethan smock To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5117 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I am a chemistry teacher in real life and chlorine vaporizes fairly quickly, so if the bleach is old this type of stuff doesn't go nearly as well. It's good for laundry but not for tests or experiments. So when doing experiments on fabric use new bleach. theresa _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Apr 1 00:12:41 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j315CfNj011234 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 00:12:41 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j315BkLV026869 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:11:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j315Bfdd064988; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:11:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m21.mx.aol.com (imo-m21.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.2]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j315BPK3064715 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:11:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from SNSpies@aol.com) Received: from SNSpies@aol.com by imo-m21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r5.33.) id k.12a.5a4afddb (24895); Fri, 1 Apr 2005 00:11:01 -0500 (EST) From: SNSpies@aol.com Message-ID: <12a.5a4afddb.2f7e31e5@aol.com> Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 00:11:01 EST To: tabletweaving@crafter.org, SCA-Card-Weaving@yahoogroups.com, atlantia@atlantia.sca.org, brighthills@yahoogroups.com, sca-laurels@ansteorra.org, h-needlework@ansteorra.org, h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 SE for Windows sub 5012 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] updated errata for "Ecclesiastical Pomp" X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Vastly extended pages of errata for "Ecclesiastical Pomp and Aristocratic Circumstance", mainly containing new information that has come to light since its publication in 2000, are available on my web page. Click on the book cover, then go to the link at the bottom of the page. Nancy <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Nancy Spies Arelate Studio _www.weavershand.com/ArelateStudio.html_ (http://www.weavershand.com/ArelateStudio.html) Ingvild Josefsdatter, OL Bright Hills, Atlantia "But if by a 'Liberal' they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a 'Liberal,' then I'm proud to say I'm a 'Liberal'." John F. Kennedy, 14 Sept 1960 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Apr 1 00:37:10 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j315bApU011273 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 00:37:10 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j315aALV028665 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:36:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j315a5SV080230; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:36:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pop-a065d10.pas.sa.earthlink.net (pop-a065d10.pas.sa.earthlink.net [207.217.121.251]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j315a0qV080198 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:36:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from costumrs@radiks.net) Received: from user-12l20nh.cable.mindspring.com ([69.81.2.241] helo=pierre-ynmjysj2.radiks.net) by pop-a065d10.pas.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DHEp6-0006RT-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:36:00 -0800 Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20050331225834.02788ec0@pop.radiks.net> X-Sender: costumrs@radiks.net@pop.radiks.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.1.2.0 Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:01:55 -0600 To: h-costume@indra.com From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger In-Reply-To: <200503311626.j2VGQURX007858@net.indra.com> References: <200503311626.j2VGQURX007858@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Welcome! X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 10:26 AM 3/31/2005, you wrote: Jodi, What Kate said!! FYI, more info about the Costume Con in Ogden, UT is at: www.crossroadsutah.org Info about Costume Cons in general is available at: www.Costume-Con.org Welcome!! Sandy Pettinger >Just wanted to introduce myself to the group. My name is Jodi Nelson and >I have been costuming for 4 years now. I live in St.George, UT. >------------------------------------- >Welcome to the asylum! ;) > >As you are in Utah, will you be attending the fast approaching Costume >Con? I'm not able to attend this year, darn it, but am looking forward >to stories and pictures. > >Kate McClure "Those Who Fail To Learn History Are Doomed to Repeat It; Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly -- Why They Are Simply Doomed. Achemdro'hm "The Illusion of Historical Fact" -- C.Y. 4971 Andromeda _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Apr 1 00:41:41 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j315fewf011290 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 00:41:41 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j315eXLV028993 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:40:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j315eXKL083009; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:40:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.198.135]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j315eVGE082928 for ; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:40:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from bella_lucia_da_verona@yahoo.com.au) Received: (qmail 28473 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Apr 2005 05:40:26 -0000 Message-ID: <20050401054026.28471.qmail@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [203.23.152.173] by web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 01 Apr 2005 15:40:25 EST Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 15:40:25 +1000 (EST) From: Bella Subject: Re: [h-cost] Mind Your Manners! To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thank you! :-) Bella --- E House wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bella" > > could someone please re-post the link to the 'Mind Your Manners' > game? > > I thought I'd bookmarked it, but I find I was wrong. :-) > > > www.mccord-museum.qc.ca/en/keys/games/game_0/ > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. http://au.movies.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Apr 1 08:26:29 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j31DQSBf014601 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:26:29 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31DPHLV007484 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 1 Apr 2005 06:25:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j31DOYJa055021; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 06:24:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav2.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.74]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j31DOVmc054922 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 06:24:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from audreybmorin2@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 31 Mar 2005 16:33:19 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.161.203 by BAY106-DAV2.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 01 Apr 2005 00:33:18 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [65.54.161.203] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] X-Sender: audreybmorin2@hotmail.com From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20050401002730.75011.qmail@web31505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Mind Your Manners! Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:33:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Apr 2005 00:33:19.0223 (UTC) FILETIME=[66F13870:01C53652] X-DCC-servers-Metrics: net.indra.com 1049; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I didn't get a chance to try it out and now I've even forgotten what > museum it was located at. I only remember that it was a Canadian > museum. I don't have the link anymore, but it was at McCord Museum, should be pretty easy to find with Google. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Apr 1 08:37:33 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j31DbXh4014683 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:37:33 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31DZbLV010442 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 1 Apr 2005 06:35:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j31DZW58062352; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 06:35:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk ([193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j31DZTGL061842 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 06:35:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id j31DYqd24206.; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:34:53 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 01 Apr 2005 14:34:52 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.2 Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 14:34:47 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Mariner's Cuffs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm not an expert on this period, but as no-one else seems to have answered... I don't think there is an actual pocket there, if that's what you are suggesting, but yes, I think the flap is stitched to one side of the outer arm seam and the buttons to the other. Kate Bunting Librarian and 17th century reenactor >>> dgandh@t-online.de 31/03/2005 14:39:36 >>> I am trying to figure out how mariner's cuffs work circa 1690-1720. To me it looks like its just a pocket flap that 3-buttons the sleeve closed. Does this go over the seam of the arm though? Like the pocket is on one side and the buttons are on the other? This one is a little later but will give you the idea http://www.nmm.ac.uk/mag/pages/mnuExplore/PaintingDetail.cfm?letter=c&ID=BHC 3017 and http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/CollectionsDetail.cfm?ID=UNI0006&picture=0 The coat I am trying to make is more of a short jacket than a fancy justaucorps in the pictures above... Any suggestions? Thanks Greg www.gentlemenoffortune.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Apr 1 09:15:39 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j31EFcbR014902 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:15:39 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31EEcLV020456 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 1 Apr 2005 07:14:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j31EEVAG089357; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 07:14:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ultra7.eskimo.com (IDENT:root@ultra7.eskimo.com [204.122.16.70]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j31EETE6089312 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 07:14:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from judymitch@oldwaylane.net) Received: from [4.249.36.68] (dialup-4.249.36.68.Dial1.Washington2.Level3.net [4.249.36.68]) by ultra7.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31E5w0J008348 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 06:05:59 -0800 Message-ID: <424D57AB.8060802@oldwaylane.net> Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 09:16:11 -0500 From: Judy Mitchell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20041217 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sizing up Uniquely You References: <1c4.254f1f3f.2f7dc6e0@aol.com> <1575.24.4.69.40.1112327244.squirrel@www.inreach.com> In-Reply-To: <1575.24.4.69.40.1112327244.squirrel@www.inreach.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Diana Habra wrote: > Hello everyone! > > I bought a Uniquely You dress form and cover when I was several sizes > smaller. Now I am a real size 18 (eek!) but the covers only go up to size > 14. Has anybody tried to size one up from the 14? Any suggestions? Oh yeah, I have. I has a size 18 UY, but I'm bigger than that. If you are really industrious, you could take the cover apart and add in pieces and re-tailor it to fit you the way you are now. You'll still have to pad up the form. What I did, was take upholstery batting (nice big sheets of padding, easy to cut and shape) and wrap it around the form, and add bits of polyfill where it need a touch more. I did this over the cover (rather than re-tailor the cover), and then wrapped around the padding with some old, wide ace bandages to kepp everything in place. It's not perfect, but it's a lot closer. -Judy Mitchell _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Apr 1 10:48:46 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j31Fmk6b015356 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 10:48:46 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31FlVLV000495 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:47:31 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j31FlIQJ062208; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:47:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from OMC1-S27.phx.gbl (omc1-s27.bay6.hotmail.com [65.54.248.229]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j31Fl8GI061897 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:47:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from caithlinn@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.54.174.34]) by OMC1-S27.phx.gbl with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 1 Apr 2005 07:47:03 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 07:47:02 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.174.201 by by103fd.bay103.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 01 Apr 2005 15:47:02 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.54.174.201] X-Originating-Email: [caithlinn@hotmail.com] X-Sender: caithlinn@hotmail.com From: "C M" To: h-costume@net.indra.com Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 01:47:02 +1000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Apr 2005 15:47:02.0971 (UTC) FILETIME=[0C7148B0:01C536D2] X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] What is the history of denim weave? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, There are a variety of theories about Denim. The most popular seems to be the "Serge de Nimes" theory, which relates to a wool/silk fabric produced in Nimes from the 16th century on and imported into the UK. Since serge is also a twill weave, maybe the name was transferred with the weave, rather than with the material.... "Jeans" comes from the type of fustian (linen warp, cotton weft) woven in Genoa during the 16th century. It was called "jean" or "jeans" (while cloth from Ulm in Germany was called "holmes"). The first jeans were made from this type of cloth, which by the 18th century was made completely out of cotton, but kept the name. Denim Jeans could therefore maybe be translated into "Twill-woven Fustian"...... or today "Cotton twill".... Wool/Cotton blends are actually not modern. There are a variety of fabrics from the 14th century onwards that use cotton and wool in different amounts. The problem today is rather that the fibres are a mix in each thread (warp and weft) and not (like it was then) warp made of one material and weft made of the other. An example would be farsitia, which was made in Florence. So if they can let you know what the go is with those denims, maybe you can use them still, as long as you stay away from the polyester and lyrca ones..... Hope this helps, Caithlinn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Apr 1 11:39:42 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j31GdgA9015711 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 11:39:42 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31GcBLV009306 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:38:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j31Gc54a009599; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:38:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m-smtp-1.cdc.gov (smtpgw.cdc.gov [198.246.97.18]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j31GbxF6009366 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:38:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from NBD2@CDC.GOV) Received: from mcdc-us-bis.cdc.gov ([158.111.6.114]) by m-smtp-1.cdc.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2657.72) id H989SPGD; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 11:22:38 -0500 Received: from m-ncid-1.NCID.CDC.GOV ([158.111.223.50]) by mcdc-us-bis.cdc.gov with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 1 Apr 2005 11:21:31 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 11:22:16 -0500 Message-ID: <51A3B7155A485548A47D068A9793C4FF05945699@m-ncid-1.ncid.cdc.gov> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: bleaching ecru lace Thread-Index: AcU21vfHEBoOfuXzTZ+YF81d0vGGGA== From: "Ferguson, Natalie" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Apr 2005 16:21:31.0999 (UTC) FILETIME=[DDADE6F0:01C536D6] X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] bleaching ecru lace X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0600328617==" Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0600328617== content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 QSBxdWVzdGlvbiBmcm9tIGx1cmtlciBsYW5kOg0KIA0KSSBoYXZlIGEgbGFyZ2Ugcm9sbCBvZiB3 aWRlIGVjcnUgQ2hhbnRpbGx5ICg/KSBsYWNlOyBJIGFtIGZhaXJseSBzdXJlIGl0J3Mgbm90IG1h ZGUgb2YgYSBuYXR1cmFsIGZpYmVyLiBBbSB3YW50aW5nIHRvIGJsZWFjaCBpdCBpbiBvcmRlciB0 byBtYWtlIGEgdHVybi1vZi10aGUtMjB0aCBjZW50dXJ5IHBlaWdub2lyIGFuZCBuaWdodGRyZXNz LiBCb3RoIGdhcm1lbnRzIHJlcXVpcmUgeWFyZHMgYW5kIHlhcmRzIGFuZCB5YXJkcyBvZiB3aWRl IGxhY2UuDQogDQpJcyBpdCBwb3NzaWJsZSB0byBzYWZlbHkgYmxlYWNoIG1hbm1hZGUgZmliZXJz LCBvciBzaG91bGQgSSB0ZWFzdGFpbiB0aGUgYmF0aXN0ZSB0byBzb3J0LW9mIG1hdGNoIHRoZSBs YWNlPw0KIA0KV2l0aCB0aGFua3MsIGFuZCBJIHN1cmUgZG8gZW5qb3lpbmcgcmVhZGluZyBldmVy eW9uZSdzIHBvc3RzLA0KIA0KTmF0YWxpZSBpbiBLWQ0K --===============0600328617== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --===============0600328617==-- From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Apr 1 11:45:35 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j31GjYTv015742 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 11:45:34 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31GicLV010007 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:44:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j31GiZNk015677; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:44:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from isis.ntw.net (isis.ntw.net [199.165.233.10]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j31GiWQH015624 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:44:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from sylvia@ntw.net) Received: from [206.124.3.187] (p27.3c04.pm.dimcom.net [206.124.3.187]) by isis.ntw.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j31Gfq019583 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:41:53 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <51A3B7155A485548A47D068A9793C4FF05945699@m-ncid-1.ncid.cdc.gov> References: <51A3B7155A485548A47D068A9793C4FF05945699@m-ncid-1.ncid.cdc.gov> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <5306b8d47eaeebc7a8a64c60e861cf7d@ntw.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sylvia Rognstad Subject: Re: [h-cost] bleaching ecru lace Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:52:19 -0700 To: Historical Costume X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO If it's poly, bleach won't do any good. If its cotton or rayon, it will take bleach, but all the color may not bleach out. Try a bit and see. Sylrog On Apr 1, 2005, at 9:22 AM, Ferguson, Natalie wrote: > A question from lurker land: > > I have a large roll of wide ecru Chantilly (?) lace; I am fairly sure > it's not made of a natural fiber. Am wanting to bleach it in order to > make a turn-of-the-20th century peignoir and nightdress. Both garments > require yards and yards and yards of wide lace. > > Is it possible to safely bleach manmade fibers, or should I teastain > the batiste to sort-of match the lace? > > With thanks, and I sure do enjoying reading everyone's posts, > > Natalie in KY > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Apr 1 14:14:50 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j31JEnYF016524 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:14:50 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31JDGLV027034 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:13:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j31JCrqU050560; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:12:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm12.prodigy.net (ylpvm12-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.43]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j31JCWMc050347 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:12:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from pimout7-ext.prodigy.net (pimout7-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.63.58]) by ylpvm12.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31JCSck013334 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:12:28 -0500 X-ORBL: [69.107.32.97] Received: from thelema.frys.com (adsl-69-107-32-97.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.32.97]) by pimout7-ext.prodigy.net (8.12.10 milter /8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31JCU5u137468 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:12:31 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20050401110433.02617570@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 11:06:42 -0800 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] bleaching ecru lace In-Reply-To: <51A3B7155A485548A47D068A9793C4FF05945699@m-ncid-1.ncid.cdc .gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >I have a large roll of wide ecru Chantilly (?) lace; I am fairly sure it's >not made of a natural fiber. Am wanting to bleach it in order to make a >turn-of-the-20th century peignoir and nightdress. Both garments require >yards and yards and yards of wide lace. > >Is it possible to safely bleach manmade fibers, or should I teastain the >batiste to sort-of match the lace? Dye the batiste. Either the bleaching will not work, and you can't tell how well beforehand, or it will damage the lace, and you can't tell how much till it falls apart later, so make the fabric match the lace instead of the other way around. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Apr 1 14:34:26 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j31JYQf7016615 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:34:26 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31JVjLV029718 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:31:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j31JVZmU067876; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:31:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from courageux.concentric.com (courageux.concentric.com [207.155.248.177]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j31JVSaL067765 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:31:30 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from jtknits@jtknits.cts.com) Received: (root@localhost) by courageux.concentric.com id OAA00496; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:31:28 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.17] Message-ID: <200504011931.OAA00496@courageux.concentric.com> From: Julie To: Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 11:31:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <200504011547.j31FlJhL062212@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id j31JVSaL067765 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] cotton X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I've heard bits here and there that cotton may not be as scarce in Western Europe as we've been led to believe. Any of you learned folks have any knowledge of this? Where were these wool/cotton fabrics found? Thanks Julie ---- wrote: >> Wool/Cotton blends are actually not modern. There are a variety of fabrics > from the 14th century onwards that use cotton and wool in different amounts. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Apr 1 15:15:37 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j31KFasD016919 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 15:15:37 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j31KDwLV004645 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:13:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j31KDiRD005441; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:13:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rproxy.gmail.com (rproxy.gmail.com [64.233.170.203]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j31KDc5N005348 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:13:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from cinbarnes@gmail.com) Received: by rproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i8so842784rne for ; Fri, 01 Apr 2005 12:13:37 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=bVfBiHvMkPcmshCK9scbZg8gxVS3WuAU+oMzNRLl1NMrOHtDq0XqHFnAMhe+IvLKVL07LzIxtNa02crt59SogWZhrRu1lgVAcn2C4KjVl59AuOAnEqnaAsYc4VNhQj/p4/Zcd2jqsVgNJ1Xy1FI6YJW82wFUJ0dKQcmuWDZZu2c= Received: by 10.39.2.79 with SMTP id e79mr2837874rni; Fri, 01 Apr 2005 12:13:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.38.82.44 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:13:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:13:37 -0800 From: Cin To: dgandh@t-online.de, h-cost Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] re: Mariner's Cuffs X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Greg, I too was rather loathe to reply as I have never done Naval uniforms, nor any men's tailoring in your target period & country. I did a French court suit from 1740 (rather far afield) but it has the turned back cuffs and some of the details shown in the portrait. This link: http://photos.yahoo.com/hysteria95126 will get you to my freshly posted in-process construction pictures. If a picture is worth 1K words, here's a novella. Ask questions, if you like. I dont know what your tailoring ability is. My primary pattern sources were contemporary paintings, Norah Waugh's "Cut of Men's Clothes" with lots and lots of mockups. In the photos you'll see some horrible fabric... that was the last mockup w/ complete construction & interfacing detail. I have the suit, fitting mock, final mock & can take more pictures. Also, check w/ Fred Sthuthers at RL Shep for Men's tailoring guides in/near your period. Pattern books with often show ossified styles like uniforms, court clothes that date to much earlier than the book's original publication date. Finally, the other person who replied is correct. There is no pocket in the sleeve vent. It's an inset flap that goes betw the cuff & cuff lining. I would guess the flap looks like many pocket flaps you have seen thus the confusion. --cin Cynthia Barnes CinBarnes@gmail.com Message: 3 Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 15:39:36 +0200 From: "dgandh" <> Subject: [h-cost] Mariner's Cuffs To: "'Historical Costume'" Message-ID: <1DGzta-1rY7BQ0@fwd16.sul.t-online.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am trying to figure out how mariner's cuffs work circa 1690-1720. To me it looks like its just a pocket flap that 3-buttons the sleeve closed. Does this go over the seam of the arm though? Like the pocket is on one side and the buttons are on the other? This one is a little later but will give you the idea http://www.nmm.ac.uk/mag/pages/mnuExplore/PaintingDetail.cfm?letter=c&ID=BHC3017 and http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/CollectionsDetail.cfm?ID=UNI0006&picture=0 The coat I am trying to make is more of a short jacket than a fancy justaucorps in the pictures above... Any suggestions? Thanks Greg www.gentlemenoffortune.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Fri Apr 1 22:41:53 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j323fq1d019442 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 22:41:53 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j323dfLV026547 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 1 Apr 2005 20:39:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j323dPBA047591; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 20:39:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net (maynard.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.243]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j323dMZe047556 for ; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 20:39:22 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from claning@igc.org) Received: from 209-165-40-008.jps.net ([209.165.40.8]) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1DHZTj-00078p-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Fri, 01 Apr 2005 22:39:19 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: claning@pop.igc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200504011931.OAA00496@courageux.concentric.com> References: <200504011931.OAA00496@courageux.concentric.com> Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 19:38:59 -0800 To: Historical Costume From: Chris Laning Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: cotton X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 11:31 AM -0800 4/1/05, Julie wrote: >I've heard bits here and there that cotton may not be as scarce in >Western Europe as we've been led to believe. Any of you learned >folks have any knowledge of this? Where were these wool/cotton >fabrics found? Yes, we've had these discussions quite a few times -- though not in the last year or two, IIRC. You might want to check our out list archives: start by going to http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume . There was something of a discussion on "fustian" about a year ago, for instance. More ancient archives are at http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/~fashion/archives , which has an excellent search engine. (The 1995 archive is the one I happened to hit, and there are several interesting messages if you search for "cotton.") There are also good discussions at: http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/Fashion/index.cgi?l=hcos97&FirstItem=30&s=Cotton&Cmd=Match+34 http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/Fashion/index.cgi?l=hcos97&FirstItem=30&s=Cotton&Cmd=Match+35 The classic book on the subject is _The Italian Cotton Industry of the Later Middle Ages, 1100-1600_ by M.F. Mazzaoui (Cambridge, 1991) ISBN 0 521 23095 0 -- I think it's probably out of print by now, but might be available in a college library or on the used-book market. -- ____________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning - Davis, California + http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Apr 2 03:49:14 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j328n69M001928 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 03:49:14 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j328luLV013337 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 2 Apr 2005 01:47:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j328ljP0033690; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 01:47:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ms-smtp-04.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-04.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.116]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j328lhTQ033664 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 01:47:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from dannw@mn.rr.com) Received: from oemcomputer.mn.rr.com (CPE-24-26-191-39.mn.res.rr.com [24.26.191.39]) by ms-smtp-04.rdc-kc.rr.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j328YlCl007435 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 02:34:50 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20050402024434.023304c0@pop-server.mn.rr.com> X-Sender: dannw@pop-server.mn.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 02:45:27 -0600 To: Historical Costume From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg Subject: Re: [h-cost] cotton In-Reply-To: <200504011931.OAA00496@courageux.concentric.com> References: <200504011547.j31FlJhL062212@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I don't know about blended fabrics for sure but I have definite references to cotton fabric used in England during the 16th century. Cheers, Danielle At 11:31 AM 4/1/2005 -0800, you wrote: >I've heard bits here and there that cotton may not be as scarce in Western >Europe as we've been led to believe. Any of you learned folks have any >knowledge of this? Where were these wool/cotton fabrics found? >Thanks >Julie >---- wrote: > >> Wool/Cotton blends are actually not modern. There are a variety of > fabrics > > from the 14th century onwards that use cotton and wool in different > amounts. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Apr 2 06:48:55 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j32BmsE8006605 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 06:48:54 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j32BloLV006938 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 2 Apr 2005 04:47:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j32BleF9042736; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 04:47:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp811.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (smtp811.mail.ukl.yahoo.com [217.12.12.201]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j32BlUdL042587 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 04:47:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from suzi@suziclarke.co.uk) Received: from unknown (HELO solena.suziclarke.co.uk) (h-costume@indra.com@217.44.108.139 with poptime) by smtp811.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2005 11:47:24 -0000 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050402124406.014c4608@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: mail.suziclarke.co.uk:suziclarkeuk-mail@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 12:47:34 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Suzi Clarke In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050331225834.02788ec0@pop.radiks.net> References: <200503311626.j2VGQURX007858@net.indra.com> <200503311626.j2VGQURX007858@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Mariner's Cuffs X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Greg If you get hold of a copy of Costume Close-up by Linda Baumgarten and others, you will find, at item No. 19 a late 18th century French coat with "mariner's cuffs". There are clear patterns, and a wonderful photograph, showing the exact construction. The Museum of London has a similar striped coat on display of the same date, but it has plain cuffs, and very fancy buttons. Hope this helps. Suzi _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Apr 2 09:04:32 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j32E4W00022199 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 09:04:32 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j32E3FLV014353 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 2 Apr 2005 07:03:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j32E31ia026293; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 07:03:01 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rastaban.dandy.net (rastaban.dandy.net [209.128.224.29]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j32E2wtA026198 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 07:02:59 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from mikes@dandy.net) Received: from [209.128.242.195] (acty1195.dialup.dandy.net [209.128.242.195]) by rastaban.dandy.net (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j32E2o1Y025632 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 09:02:51 -0500 Message-ID: <424EA603.70601@dandy.net> Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 09:02:43 -0500 From: michael tartaglio User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume References: <200504011547.j31FlJhL062212@net.indra.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20050402024434.023304c0@pop-server.mn.rr.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20050402024434.023304c0@pop-server.mn.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] perhaps to put a final note to an old debate (was cotton) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi, All. I think the consensus of most of the fabric/costume historians on the subject of cotton (the plant) usage can be summed up as follows: The plant has been grown for use as a cloth fiber in the Middle East, North Africa and India for quite a long time. Therefore, it was most probably available readily to those cultures. It may have been available, albeit at a higher cost, to Southern European cultures with trade in the Middle East (most notably Italy). It was a rather costly item to Northern European countries up until the 3rd quarter of the 17th Cent., but was occasionally seen, especially when woven as a weft in the manufacturing process with linen warp. The term "cotton" or "cottoning" was used as a phrase in English speaking references to describe a process done to woolen fabrics to make them fluffy or napped. Perhaps this came to be because of their access to raw cotton, which was definitely available as a stuffing or padding (this may be because the cotton plant's fibers were small and difficult to spin, or the market was there for the non-processed product) which begat the name of a fluffing, napping process due to it's resemblance to the plant material. Round about the middle of the 17th Cent. seems to be the most confusion as to the usage of the word "cotton" and what it means. By about the 1670s, due perhaps to English interests in India, true cotton (the plant) fabrics were much cheaper and more readily available in Northern Europe, especially in England. Hopefully this covers the salient points. Now on to the nitty-gritty...What do you want to do with this info? If it is for research, there is a lot of work to do searching out the references. For example, you could see a reference to "cottons" being produced in England for use by Cromwell's army in Ireland, but the likelyhood that it is the plant material and not a woolen, for which England was famous for centuries, is rather slim (i.e cottons as an export out of England as opposed to an import). If it is for clothing/costume, consider the source of your concern. Does the group/person that you are clothing care about such fine details? Perhaps, perhaps not. Just my observations on an ancient topic, Mike T. > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Apr 2 10:45:05 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j32Fj46U022736 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:45:05 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j32FhBLV020926 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 2 Apr 2005 08:43:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j32Fh4Qk092027; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 08:43:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from zenobia.reddawn.net (rrcs-67-52-227-61.west.biz.rr.com [67.52.227.61]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j32Fh0No091925 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 08:43:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from dawn@reddawn.net) Received: from [10.0.0.3] (unknown [10.0.0.3]) by zenobia.reddawn.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1A7E3C74B for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 09:41:50 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <424EBD94.5070508@reddawn.net> Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 09:43:16 -0600 From: Dawn User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Simplicity Halloween Costume Contest Winners X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO http://simplicity.com/index.cfm?page=section/contests/hallowinners05/hallo_winners05.htm Some of these are very nicely made and/or cute. Dawn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Apr 2 10:58:31 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j32FwUjV022798 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:58:30 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j32FvaLV021803 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 2 Apr 2005 08:57:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j32FvXmG001400; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 08:57:33 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail12.mdx.safepages.com (mail12.mdx.safepages.com [216.127.154.242]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j32FvVpa001260 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 08:57:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from formfunc@formfunction.org) Received: by mail12.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix, from userid 1012) id DAEC7B7BE; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 15:57:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from compaqub (1Cust12.tnt3.ofallon.mo.da.uu.net [65.239.197.12]) by mail12.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 36FB5B6FF for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 15:57:11 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <00a201c5379c$ca905690$0400a8c0@compaqub> From: "E House" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200504011931.OAA00496@courageux.concentric.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: cotton Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 09:58:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I've collected some notes on cotton, mostly from posts with useful references and translations. They're not exactly well organized, but if anyone would like a text file copy email me off-list and I'll pass it around. You'd be far better off actually reading the Mizzoui book, etc, but my notes can help if you need something quick to go on. -E House (Mmmm.... Flemish trade routes.) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Apr 2 12:07:52 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j32H7qJg023235 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 12:07:52 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j32H6TLV026351 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:06:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j32H6IEq046906; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:06:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j32H6FWf046859 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:06:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from claning@igc.org) Received: from user-38lc276.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.8.230]) by hall.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1DHm4d-000781-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Sat, 02 Apr 2005 12:06:15 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: claning@pop.igc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00a201c5379c$ca905690$0400a8c0@compaqub> References: <200504011931.OAA00496@courageux.concentric.com> <00a201c5379c$ca905690$0400a8c0@compaqub> Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 09:03:10 -0800 To: Historical Costume From: Chris Laning Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: cotton Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There are a couple of other compilations of old posts on the subject at: http://www.florilegium.org/files/TEXTILES/cotton-art.text http://www.florilegium.org/files/TEXTILES/cotton-msg.text BTW, if anyone mentins a scrap of cotton knitting "found in a Viking grave", it's been debunked. The cotton turns out to have been modern mercerized cotton, which means it's a modern intrusion (and the context where it was found is disturbed enough that this is quite possible). -- ____________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning - Davis, California + http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com ____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sat Apr 2 18:36:04 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j32Na3AG026244 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 18:36:04 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j32NYwLV024404 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 2 Apr 2005 16:34:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j32NYaeP004260; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 16:34:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j32NYXlp004186 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 16:34:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06651 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 17:48:54 -0600 Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 17:48:52 -0600 (CST) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: cotton In-Reply-To: <00a201c5379c$ca905690$0400a8c0@compaqub> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'd like to second the suggestion already made to go through the list archives for past threads on cotton. (Note: There are no archives at indra, but the h-cost info page includes directions for finding the archives, which are kept by a volunteer.) Cotton seems to be a topic that gets people all excited, for quite a number of time periods of study. Some years ago the topic inspired the only real flame war I've seen on this list, after which two people were banned (a sad thing, as both were knowledgeable contributors). So clearly it's something that there's a lot of disagreement over. Some things I've found useful to bear in mind: 1. As Mike mentioned, the word "cotton" has had many meanings. Sometimes it refers to a fabric, other times to cotton fiber in a form other than fabric, sometimes to another fiber in certain forms, sometimes to a process ("cottoning"). Seeing the word "cotton" in the writing of one period is not sufficient to justify saying "They had cotton" meaning the fabric as we know it today. 2. The presence of the fiber doesn't mean it was used for fabric. 3. The presence of the fiber or the fabric in one place/time doesn't mean it was used in another place at the same time, or another time in the same place. 4. The presence of the fabric doesn't mean it was used for clothing; in my own period of study (medieval Western Europe) there's plenty of evidence for cotton used for things like embroidery grounds or home decor, but far less for clothing. 5. The presence of the fabric in one type or class of clothing doesn't mean it was used for all types and classes. Summing up: Usage varied quite a bit by place, time, and purpose. When I lecture about certain styles, I advise against using cotton fabric because there's no evidence that it was used for those fashions -- meaning for that time, place, and type of garment. It truly grieves me to hear this come back to me third- or fourth-hand as "Robin says cotton isn't period," which is just as bad a generalization as saying "cotton is period for Elizabethan, therefore I can use it for any garment and culture within the SCA context" -- something I've also heard. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Apr 3 00:17:22 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j335HLCo027780 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 00:17:21 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j335FLLV018694 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 2 Apr 2005 22:15:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j335F8Q5015100; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 22:15:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from isis.ntw.net (isis.ntw.net [199.165.233.10]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j335F5Fq015042 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 22:15:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from sylvia@ntw.net) Received: from [206.124.3.92] (p28.3c02.pm.dimcom.net [206.124.3.92]) by isis.ntw.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j335CL015726 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 22:12:22 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) To: Historical Costume Message-Id: <2982a4646a56230eaffa0a1c6a23ce54@ntw.net> From: Sylvia Rognstad Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 22:22:51 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Fwd: Medieval gowns X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm resending this message because it hasn't shown up yet, so if it appears twice, you'll know why. > > > I finally have a couple questions I know you experts can help me with. > I got a commission to make a medieval dress for an SCA woman, based > on Butterick 3552-- > http://store.sewingtoday.com/cgi-bin/butterick/shop.cgi? > search=3552&s.search.all.x=14&s.search.all.y=14&TI=10001&M=&pageSize=9. > > She says she has been told that the seams on sleeves from this era are > supposed to be toward the back rather than under the arm. Is this > correct? Also, I am wondering about the correctness of the over the > bust princess seam on the pattern. I think I will have to leave it > there, due to the nature of the fabric she has chosen, but it seems a > bit modern to me for some reason. > > I'm going to lace up the back instead of using a zipper. Would > grommets have been used yet or would they just be sewn eyelets (which > I dont think I am going to do)? > > TIA, > Sylrog > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Apr 3 00:46:22 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j335kL9n027883 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 00:46:22 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j335hgLV020334 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 2 Apr 2005 22:43:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j335haLS031942; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 22:43:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from linda-1.paradise.net.nz (bm-1a.paradise.net.nz [202.0.58.20]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j335hX54031842 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 22:43:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from ladyadele@paradise.net.nz) Received: from smtp-2.paradise.net.nz (smtp-2a.paradise.net.nz [202.0.32.195]) by linda-1.paradise.net.nz (Paradise.net.nz) with ESMTP id <0IEC00E29VWFK3@linda-1.paradise.net.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 03 Apr 2005 17:43:27 +1200 (NZST) Received: from paradise.net.nz (203-96-148-66.apx1.paradise.net.nz [203.96.148.66]) by smtp-2.paradise.net.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B35D9E212 for ; Sun, 03 Apr 2005 17:43:26 +1200 (NZST) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 17:37:26 +1200 From: Adele de Maisieres Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fwd: Medieval gowns In-reply-to: <2982a4646a56230eaffa0a1c6a23ce54@ntw.net> To: Historical Costume Message-id: <424F8116.7060304@paradise.net.nz> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031205 Thunderbird/0.4 References: <2982a4646a56230eaffa0a1c6a23ce54@ntw.net> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I got a commission to make a medieval dress for an SCA woman, based > on Butterick 3552-- > http://store.sewingtoday.com/cgi-bin/butterick/shop.cgi? > search=3552&s.search.all.x=14&s.search.all.y=14&TI=10001&M=&pageSize=9. > >> She says she has been told that the seams on sleeves from this era >> are supposed to be toward the back rather than under the arm. Is >> this correct? Also, I am wondering about the correctness of the >> over the bust princess seam on the pattern. I think I will have to >> leave it there, due to the nature of the fabric she has chosen, but >> it seems a bit modern to me for some reason. >> >> I'm going to lace up the back instead of using a zipper. Would >> grommets have been used yet or would they just be sewn eyelets >> (which I dont think I am going to do)? >> I don't know a huge amount about this era, but it appears to be an attempt at a 12th-century bliaut. To answer your questions in a basic way, no, this is probably before sleeve seams get rotated to the back. And no, grommets wouldn't have been used. The little reading I've done on this area suggests it should lace up under the arms rather than the back. I suggest you check out http://bliautlady.50megs.com/ http://members.shaw.ca/evethejust/bliaut.html Adele _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Apr 3 01:33:40 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j336Xd8p028201 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 01:33:40 -0500 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j336WWLV022989 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 2 Apr 2005 23:32:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j336WLc0060752; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 23:32:21 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mta201-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta201-rme.xtra.co.nz [210.86.15.144]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j336WIt4060637 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 23:32:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from thebruce@ihug.co.nz) Received: from mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz ([210.86.15.240]) by mta201-rme.xtra.co.nz with ESMTP id <20050403063203.VYZE23759.mta201-rme.xtra.co.nz@mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz> for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 18:32:03 +1200 Received: from [10.1.1.3] ([222.152.202.221]) by mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz with ESMTP id <20050403063203.CCLJ4411.mta3-rme.xtra.co.nz@[10.1.1.3]> for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 18:32:03 +1200 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.308 [266.9.1]); Sun, 03 Apr 2005 18:32:09 +1200 Message-ID: <002f01c53816$dcac6a10$0301010a@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: <2982a4646a56230eaffa0a1c6a23ce54@ntw.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fwd: Medieval gowns Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 18:32:08 +1200 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > I finally have a couple questions I know you experts can help me with. > > I got a commission to make a medieval dress for an SCA woman, based > > on Butterick 3552-- > > http://store.sewingtoday.com/cgi-bin/butterick/shop.cgi? search=3552&s.search.all.x=14&s.search.all.y=14&TI=10001&M=&pageSize=9. > > She says she has been told that the seams on sleeves from this era are > > supposed to be toward the back rather than under the arm. Is this > > correct? Also, I am wondering about the correctness of the over the > > bust princess seam on the pattern. I think I will have to leave it > > there, due to the nature of the fabric she has chosen, but it seems a > > bit modern to me for some reason. Well... if as Adele says it's to be a Bliaut inspired ensemble, then disregard everything I'm about to say;) It could also be based on early 16thC Dutch/Flemish styles and yes, the seam could be rotated to the back.. it certainly helps the opening of the sleeve to lie flat together rather than open (like you see in the cover of the pattern.) http://costumes.glittersweet.com/sca/yellowflemish.htm That's my gown from the era this could be from, and I've includeda few images and links to images if you want to pass it on to her to see if that is the style she is after. These sleeves do differe as they are made from a good deal more fabric and are rather heavy once lined. There are allegorical and religious figures from this era who do have multiple part sleeves. > > I'm going to lace up the back instead of using a zipper. Would > > grommets have been used yet or would they just be sewn eyelets (which > > I dont think I am going to do)? Side lacing is a really good way to go with this style as well, as it's one of those "magic" dresses that you get multiple views of in a tapestry, yet has no obvious opening. You can also do lacing rings. I prefer them over grommets and you can even date them to the 15thC very easily. Weyden shows small rather heavy rings on at least two figures, and the Agnes Sorrel Madonna has lacing rings sewn to the inside of her dress that would probably be invisible from the outside. They take less work than an eyelet, but more than a grommet. From the outside they can close the edges together and look a bit like hooks and eyes. regards, michaela de bruce http://glittersweet.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.1 - Release Date: 1/04/2005 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Apr 3 04:03:15 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j3383EUX028923 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 04:03:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3381uLV028066 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 3 Apr 2005 01:01:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j3381lgF015213; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 01:01:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j3381geW015152 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 01:01:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA09878 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 03:16:06 -0500 Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 03:16:04 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fwd: Medieval gowns In-Reply-To: <002f01c53816$dcac6a10$0301010a@michaela> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, michaela wrote: > > > I finally have a couple questions I know you experts can help me with. > > > I got a commission to make a medieval dress for an SCA woman, based > > > on Butterick 3552-- > > > http://store.sewingtoday.com/cgi-bin/butterick/shop.cgi? > search=3552&s.search.all.x=14&s.search.all.y=14&TI=10001&M=&pageSize=9. > > Well... if as Adele says it's to be a Bliaut inspired ensemble, then > disregard everything I'm about to say;) > > It could also be based on early 16thC Dutch/Flemish styles... It could be a lot of things! It has cosmetic elements of various styles from over 500 years mixed together and then translated to modern construction. It has a general medievalish look to it, which is fine for many uses (including SCA if you're not entering any competitions and aren't concerned about accuracy to a single period). But the best you could do in nailing down a period would be to call it "Pre-Raphaelite." Period methods for things like sleeve seam placement varied from one period to another, and depended on having the entire dress made in a consistent historical method. Changing an element here or there to match the rules of one period won't make the rest of the dress period. As Adele said, if you're going to declare that this is supposed to be 12th century, you might not rotate the sleeve seam, but then you'd also probably be putting in gussets under the arms and not doing a set-in sleeve at all, and you'd be doing side lacing instead of back, and no princess seams, and a different neckline. If you're going to pick up on some other details and assume it's late 15th c., you might keep the neckline, but you'd change the placement and curves of those princess seams, build in a foundation or add an underdress, get rid of the upper-arm bands, use hidden lacings (and probably not in the back), etc. (I have no idea where that weird train comes from.) If your friend is happy with the style of the dress and it makes her feel medieval, it will do the job. You obviously want to get rid of the truly obvious element -- the zipper -- and choose a fabric and color that has at least some semblance of being medieval. But I wouldn't suggest rotating seams or making other changes in hopes of making it more "period" unless you know which particular period you're emulating ... and if you know that, you probably don't want this pattern as a starting point. Isolated changes really won't have much impact on the overall "periodness," and they may not work as desired because the pattern was designed to work with modern construction methods. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Apr 3 05:04:36 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j3394ah1004647 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 05:04:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3393cLV008256 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 3 Apr 2005 03:03:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j3393TY8051147; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 03:03:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web41902.mail.yahoo.com (web41902.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.153]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j3393PCn051054 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 03:03:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from seamuslady@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 72161 invoked by uid 60001); 3 Apr 2005 09:03:20 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=S6naYXrFxVLAr4osIVbz50JeBNSBDi/bvP9ZXah6UkEKwhzfZ7RVmJxbORWcoqnC+USaoOPP+eJVgHLzyW8zdxkbcmJ4pUKvNqxdOzCLRx6M/SQToA6z//Z36+kg7ANzLZ6YKAS09xsqLnfQnGAAYKDv6rsdGZXcj3wOdBz7Gzs= ; Message-ID: <20050403090320.72159.qmail@web41902.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.8.166.93] by web41902.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 03 Apr 2005 01:03:20 PST Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 01:03:20 -0800 (PST) From: Lady Satine Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fwd: Medieval gowns To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO The more I look at it The more I agreee with Robin its a creative Mish mash of periods... and to me it looks like an English Kirtle...... (I know Kirtle in Elizabethan era is a completely different Garment.) I have a question for Adele about Bliaults.... Would you now of any websites taht have information about them and possible construction???? or good reference books I may be able to find...... Thanks GNL Question How far back to Corsets really go?????? I am in a debate with a lady a DD cup and insists on everything WAY to TIGHT and corseting all she puts on. including Viking, Roman, Kirtles, Cotehardies and Italian Ren ( the pregnant looking style) .... and it looks well to be extremely nice about it. she looks plain! awlful......How does one deal with a person who will not listen to even Laurels that she was misinformed???????? Thansk for the advice and help Satine Robin Netherton wrote: On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, michaela wrote: > > > I finally have a couple questions I know you experts can help me with. > > > I got a commission to make a medieval dress for an SCA woman, based > > > on Butterick 3552-- > > > http://store.sewingtoday.com/cgi-bin/butterick/shop.cgi? > search=3552&s.search.all.x=14&s.search.all.y=14&TI=10001&M=&pageSize=9. > > Well... if as Adele says it's to be a Bliaut inspired ensemble, then > disregard everything I'm about to say;) > > It could also be based on early 16thC Dutch/Flemish styles... It could be a lot of things! It has cosmetic elements of various styles from over 500 years mixed together and then translated to modern construction. It has a general medievalish look to it, which is fine for many uses (including SCA if you're not entering any competitions and aren't concerned about accuracy to a single period). But the best you could do in nailing down a period would be to call it "Pre-Raphaelite." Period methods for things like sleeve seam placement varied from one period to another, and depended on having the entire dress made in a consistent historical method. Changing an element here or there to match the rules of one period won't make the rest of the dress period. As Adele said, if you're going to declare that this is supposed to be 12th century, you might not rotate the sleeve seam, but then you'd also probably be putting in gussets under the arms and not doing a set-in sleeve at all, and you'd be doing side lacing instead of back, and no princess seams, and a different neckline. If you're going to pick up on some other details and assume it's late 15th c., you might keep the neckline, but you'd change the placement and curves of those princess seams, build in a foundation or add an underdress, get rid of the upper-arm bands, use hidden lacings (and probably not in the back), etc. (I have no idea where that weird train comes from.) If your friend is happy with the style of the dress and it makes her feel medieval, it will do the job. You obviously want to get rid of the truly obvious element -- the zipper -- and choose a fabric and color that has at least some semblance of being medieval. But I wouldn't suggest rotating seams or making other changes in hopes of making it more "period" unless you know which particular period you're emulating ... and if you know that, you probably don't want this pattern as a starting point. Isolated changes really won't have much impact on the overall "periodness," and they may not work as desired because the pattern was designed to work with modern construction methods. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Apr 3 05:37:12 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j339bBHo004864 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 05:37:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j339aDLV013759 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 3 Apr 2005 03:36:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j339a9ef069658; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 03:36:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from linda-1.paradise.net.nz (bm-1a.paradise.net.nz [202.0.58.20]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j339a7O3069580 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 03:36:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ladyadele@paradise.net.nz) Received: from smtp-3.paradise.net.nz (smtp-3a.paradise.net.nz [202.0.32.196]) by linda-1.paradise.net.nz (Paradise.net.nz) with ESMTP id <0IED00G1V6O1ZS@linda-1.paradise.net.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 03 Apr 2005 21:36:02 +1200 (NZST) Received: from paradise.net.nz (203-96-148-162.apx1.paradise.net.nz [203.96.148.162]) by smtp-3.paradise.net.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFBC4AE530 for ; Sun, 03 Apr 2005 21:36:00 +1200 (NZST) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 21:30:01 +1200 From: Adele de Maisieres Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fwd: Medieval gowns In-reply-to: <20050403090320.72159.qmail@web41902.mail.yahoo.com> To: Historical Costume Message-id: <424FB799.3080803@paradise.net.nz> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031205 Thunderbird/0.4 References: <20050403090320.72159.qmail@web41902.mail.yahoo.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Lady Satine wrote: >I have a question for Adele about Bliaults.... Would you now of any websites taht have information about them and possible construction???? or good reference books I may be able to find...... Thanks > > Hi Satine-- Sadly, no-- just the websites I suggested in my email. This is well outside my area. > >GNL Question How far back to Corsets really go?????? I am in a debate with a lady a DD cup and insists on everything WAY to TIGHT and corseting all she puts on. including Viking, Roman, Kirtles, Cotehardies and Italian Ren ( the pregnant looking style) .... and it looks well to be extremely nice about it. she looks plain! awlful......How does one deal with a person who will not listen to even Laurels that she was misinformed???????? > > Some time in the 16th century, as far as anyone knows. I wouldn't worry about it, actually... she's not interested in being told she's wrong ust at the moment, but it's probably a phase and she'll get over it. Adele _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Apr 3 10:33:45 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j33EXjv9010663 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 10:33:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j33EWcLV002878 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 3 Apr 2005 08:32:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j33EWTws043515; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 08:32:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from outbound-mail.nyc.untd.com (outbound-mail.nyc.untd.com [64.136.20.164]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j33EWRl5043399 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 08:32:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from penhalion@juno.com) Received: from outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com (webmail13.nyc.untd.com [10.141.27.153]) by smtpout01.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABBE99U5AV47832 for (sender ); Sun, 3 Apr 2005 07:31:55 -0700 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: fRRJgEOSsRehnOwCpkfn7xgAgikbRO31T3FdA5CnIg+3QZFswg/Siw== Received: (from penhalion@juno.com) by webmail13.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KPNWMC24; Sun, 03 Apr 2005 07:31:17 PDT Received: from [24.14.76.2] by webmail13.nyc.untd.com with HTTP: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 14:31:09 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.14.76.2] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "seamstrix@juno.com" X-UOL-SENDER: penhalion@juno.com Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 14:31:09 GMT To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fwd: Medieval gowns X-Mailer: Juno Webmail Version 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20050403.073117.21134.196502@webmail13.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 2:1:1857978462 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO That's Eowyn's dress! It's from Lord of the Rings and, as Robin guessed, it might best be described as Pre-Raphaelite with a medievalish inspiration. It's a lovely dress, but it's NOT medieval at all, it's fantasy Hollywood (or New Zealand) and never intended to do anything other than invoke a feel of a long ago time. If she wants the dress, I'm sure it will look lovely, but I agree with Robin in that tweaking one or two bits won't make it period anything. Karen _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Apr 3 11:01:38 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j33F1cGX010778 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 11:01:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j33F0QLV004507 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 3 Apr 2005 09:00:27 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j33F0N6r061076; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 09:00:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from isis.ntw.net (isis.ntw.net [199.165.233.10]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j33F0Lp7061051 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 09:00:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sylvia@ntw.net) Received: from [206.124.3.83] (p19.3c02.pm.dimcom.net [206.124.3.83]) by isis.ntw.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j33Eve007086 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 08:57:40 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <20050403.073117.21134.196502@webmail13.nyc.untd.com> References: <20050403.073117.21134.196502@webmail13.nyc.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <0f98e4b251d24d5cfdccbf8f0e374df4@ntw.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sylvia Rognstad Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fwd: Medieval gowns Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 09:08:11 -0600 To: Historical Costume X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Apr 3, 2005, at 8:31 AM, seamstrix@juno.com wrote: > > That's Eowyn's dress! It's from Lord of the Rings and, as Robin > guessed, it might best be described as Pre-Raphaelite with a > medievalish inspiration. It's a lovely dress, but it's NOT medieval at > all, it's fantasy Hollywood (or New Zealand) and never intended to do > anything other than invoke a feel of a long ago time. If she wants the > dress, I'm sure it will look lovely, but I agree with Robin in that > tweaking one or two bits won't make it period anything. > > > I didnt recognize it from LOTR but after doing a bit of research from > what books I have on hand, I concluded it wasn't very historically > accurate, so I'm glad to get all your comments. I will pass them > along to the customer who, I'm sure, is still going to want this > dress, which is fine with me, but now i have to figure out how much to > charge. Any suggestions from those of you who sew for profit? I am > thinking in the range of $150-200. Her fabric has a definite pattern > which she wants matched and that alone will take some time. Sylrog _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Apr 3 12:32:49 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j33GWm1M011201 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 12:32:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j33GVcLV010414 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 3 Apr 2005 10:31:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j33GVTiR018370; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 10:31:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.inreach.com (smtp.inreach.com [209.142.2.34]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j33GVRde018358 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 10:31:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dch@inreach.com) Received: (qmail 14029 invoked from network); 3 Apr 2005 16:31:28 -0000 Received: from [209.142.2.163] (HELO www.inreach.com) (209.142.2.163) by smtp.inreach.com (qpsmtpd/0.28) with ESMTP; Sun, 03 Apr 2005 09:31:28 -0700 Received: from 24.4.69.40 (SquirrelMail authenticated user dch@inreach.com) by www.inreach.com with HTTP; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 09:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1061.24.4.69.40.1112545886.squirrel@www.inreach.com> In-Reply-To: <012601c53098$2e8b23c0$df159b04@HELENPINTO> References: <004401c53081$a22ab730$54a810ac@Kate> <012601c53098$2e8b23c0$df159b04@HELENPINTO> Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 09:31:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Diana Habra" To: "Historical Costume" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Cotehardie sleeves X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi folks! Maybe I missed any prior disussion, but I would REALLY like know where I can find examples of cotehardie sleeves with a seam up the side of the arm. I mean pictoral evidence. Or a statue or something. I have spent many years doing costuming and everybody "says" that cotehardie seams are down the side of the arm but I have never seen pictures that prove it! When I did my research a couple of years ago, I found two different pictures of men (statues from 1340 & 1355) in my book "A Visual History of Costume" that show the buttons on the sleeves. But after the buttons end, there is no seam. For those of you who have the book, they are pages 49 & 52. There are several other examples of buttons going up to the elbow and/or beyond but you only see the profile view so you can't tell if there is a seam or not. So does anybody have a picture (or several preferrably) that shows the seam up the side of the arm? Thanks! Diana As a side note: I actually made my sleeve pattern with the normal sleeve seam and then a cutout in the shape of a V for the button area. I use a facing and can have a tight fit in the forearm without restricting the arm movement. Since I couldn't see a seam beyond the buttons, I figured that it was one possible way that the sleeves were done. www.RenaissanceFabrics.net "Everything for the Costumer" _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Apr 3 13:56:44 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j33HuirC012850 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 13:56:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j33HsULV015086 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 3 Apr 2005 11:54:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j33HsEDj069041; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 11:54:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web50603.mail.yahoo.com (web50603.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.90]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j33HsAen068949 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 11:54:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from caitlin_oduibhir@yahoo.ca) Received: (qmail 69139 invoked by uid 60001); 3 Apr 2005 17:54:05 -0000 Message-ID: <20050403175405.69137.qmail@web50603.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.198.54.41] by web50603.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 03 Apr 2005 13:54:05 EDT Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 13:54:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Kathy Page To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200504031500.j33F0N46061075@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Grommets and hooks and corsets oh my! X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'll combine your posts to save on bandwidth. > thing.... I would use Grommets and not Eyelets > because eyelets pull out easier than Grommets.... I > have Heard that Hook and Eyes are period... I am > lookng into that..... Grommets and eyelets were invented in the 1800's as a matter of trivia. Somewhere in the dusty corners of my mind there is a date, but I can't recall it. Anyway, that not being the point, I try to avoid either of them unless they are small enough that one can push the fibres aside and stuff the upper half of the eyelet through rather than actually cutting the fibres. I have sworn off of all metal grommetty things because of the tearing and knawing they do on the fabric. Even after being set properly, the natural movement of the person wearing the clothing will slowly saw away at the fabric and cut the fibres anyway. I use jewellry finding rings (metal rings were used historically as well to stabilise the hole)and whipstitch the hole open. My opinion, YMMV. And yes, hooks and eyes are period - to SCA later periods anyway that I am aware. Hooks in their own way are earlier as well, but for a different purpose - first that comes to mind is wickelbinder/leg wraps/puttees are hooked closed to hold them tight. They appear not unlike the little grabby hooky things one uses to hold an ace bandage closed on your twisted ankle. I'd love to hear other evidence from other periods on this topic too, really. "Kilt" pins, in their simplest form are technically period as well. These fall under the fibula pin category. A little trivia I found out when I made a cloak pin long long ago. > GNL Question How far back to Corsets really go?????? This is not as easy to answer as one may think. It depends on what you define as a "corset". The word itself has its' own etymology that dates to the latter half of the 16th c (erm, I think, I'm lazy today and not dragging out my books for this). If you define the modern blanket term of "corset" as "a textile based garment that has been stiffened through methods of layers of heavily woven fabric, stiffening products such as whalebone or bents, or employs leather in any way to assist in the support of the female breasts" I can take you back to at least the Roman era. If you are looking at say, pfalzgrafen and effigy extant corsets and say "that's a corset!" Then it's 16th c. Throw in the Toledo bodice and it really gets hazy - there is endless debate as to the true purpose of that bodice. By all general accounts, it does not really fit the standard definition of corset, but it could have acted as support i.e. the difference between the atomic bra with fabric solid enough to stop a tank vs. one of those little tissue-y pair of squares of lace sewn to a bit of elastic. Just depended on how heavy chested the person was and their cultural fashion silhouette at the time. > I am in a debate with a lady a DD cup I am this size as well and have come up with solutions to fix this issue. When I need to find something that I have no evidence for, I do my own little private "costuming junkyard wars". I take all the things someone from the time and place I am trying to emulate would have had reasonable access to, and start building. My answer to this issue of heavy chested women and support issues is a kirtle of sorts. I made it with as few cuts to the fabric as possible, the shape as natural as I can, but gives me the support I need. The real secret to making a kirtle that doesn't squash the girls flat is the liberal and creative use of bias cutting. No documentation for the garment, but hey, it works, and no one is the wiser. I have had someone ask me for a pattern from it though. :-) and insists > on everything WAY to TIGHT and corseting all she > puts on. including Viking, Roman, Kirtles, > Cotehardies and Italian Ren ( the pregnant looking > style) .... and it looks well to be extremely nice > about it. she looks plain! awlful...... I'd find that amusing to see more than anything else, but would never say it out loud. A Norse corset... heheheh... *grin* How does one > deal with a person who will not listen to even > Laurels that she was misinformed???????? Ya don't. And jumping up and down in her face won't give you the best reputation in the world, either. Oh yes, I have seen many a person I have soooo wanted to walk up to and start fixing things, inform or otherwise in my own way tell them what they are proudly wearing is painfully all wrong, but, unless directly asked to I would never ever do it. Let her go her own way, interpret it in whatever style she likes best - if that means the Corsetted Viking Wench - as much as that makes us shudder - let her do it. Either she will one day figure it out, fix things then look back and laugh at herself, or will further develop her style into something even weirder that she becomes an alternate fashion timeline. And hey, we all need distracting entertainment in those fleeting moments of boredom. ;-) Kathy ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Apr 3 15:16:22 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j33JGMtL014433 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 15:16:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j33JEZLV020240 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 3 Apr 2005 13:14:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j33JEOSA018681; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 13:14:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j33JEMeQ018652 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 13:14:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14395 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 14:28:50 -0500 Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 14:28:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie sleeves In-Reply-To: <1061.24.4.69.40.1112545886.squirrel@www.inreach.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, Diana Habra wrote: > As a side note: I actually made my sleeve pattern with the normal > sleeve seam and then a cutout in the shape of a V for the button area. > I use a facing and can have a tight fit in the forearm without > restricting the arm movement. Since I couldn't see a seam beyond the > buttons, I figured that it was one possible way that the sleeves were > done. I do something very similar. I have only one full-length seam on my sleeve, and it runs along the inside; the button seam goes only the length of the buttons and is the result of the removal of a wedge of excess fabric. However, I do rotate the sleeve in that the inside seam hits about two inches in front of my side seam -- at the forward inner point. Regardless of where you put your seam, this should be the deepest part of the sleeve curve. So, you can make your curve symmetrical, and put the seam a bit forward of side, or you can offset your curve, and put the seam directly at bottom, matching the body side seam -- but in either case, the dip under your arm lies somewhat forward of the side of your body. If you move your arm around you can see where the center of your range of motion is, and where you want the least bulk. Correspondingly, the tallest part of your sleeve is not at the top of your arm; it's a bit to the back. And it's from there that you want the weight of a hanging sleeve to fall. For many of us, this is the "fold line" on a symmetrical sleeve. Some people put a seam there, and I have done so on occasion when I've had to piece fabric. This is the location of the "offset outer seam down the back" that I think you are referring to. Finding images of seams on cotehardie/fitted dress sleeves is almost impossible. I'd love to see some too, and not just on the sleeves! Generally your only clue is button placement; the question then is whether the seam continues up or only extends for the length of the buttons. But sometimes you do see seams on, say, big bag sleeves of the same period, if the seams are decorated with fringe, and you can sometimes see they come out of the back of the armhole, not the top of the armhole. (The courtesan from Hecyra, in a pink dress with green fringe in her bag sleeve, is one nice example of this.) --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Apr 3 16:40:02 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j33Ke1le014861 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 16:40:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j33KcjLV025358 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 3 Apr 2005 14:38:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j33KcaVr070220; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 14:38:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo1.socket.net (mo1b.socket.net [216.106.88.130]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j33KcX84070200 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 14:38:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf1.socket.net (mf1.socket.net [216.106.88.20]) by mo1.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3D8338A9F for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 15:38:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t2p153.socket.net [64.85.216.155]) by mf1.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id E3603C5FF for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 15:38:31 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Fwd: Medieval gowns Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 15:38:27 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20050403.073117.21134.196502@webmail13.nyc.untd.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Butterick 3552 is not an Eowyn dress knock off. It is a Pre- LOTRs pattern. 3552 came out a little after Mists of Avalon and a few other Medievally type movies. the main body can pass as "Italian" early 1400s (?. you would have a straight sleeve with seam on the back side. Will look for a picture tonight when I have more time. Arian *****Original****** <<<>>>> _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Apr 3 16:51:58 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j33KpvtV014959 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 16:51:58 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j33KowLV025944 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 3 Apr 2005 14:50:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j33Kosue078385; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 14:50:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j33KopDA078331 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 14:50:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gailscott@eos.net) Received: from [205.133.149.131] (pm7-131.eos.net [205.133.149.131]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j33KokDl004202 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 16:50:47 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 17:44:33 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200504031500.j33F0N47061075@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver on 205.133.149.17 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: medieval gown X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I second everything -- very pretty, but not medieval. Besides that, I don't see why it needs to lace or zipper closed at all. From the photo on the pattern, anyway, it doesn't look fitted enough to require any sort of closure. It looks like it has enough ease built in to be able to wiggle into it. Depending on the lady's size and shape, that is. Gail Finke _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Apr 3 16:57:25 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j33KvOS6014998 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 16:57:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j33Ku0LV026332 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 3 Apr 2005 14:56:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j33KtrML081568; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 14:55:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j33KtnJN081491 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 14:55:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DIC8I-000NC4-75 for h-costume@indra.com; Sun, 03 Apr 2005 20:55:46 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:54:23 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] perhaps to put a final note to an old debate (was cotton) References: <200504011547.j31FlJhL062212@net.indra.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20050402024434.023304c0@pop-server.mn.rr.com> <424EA603.70601@dandy.net> In-Reply-To: <424EA603.70601@dandy.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.04-U () X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO One last point - I understand that cotton was used in Northen Europe for household textiles a good bit earlier than for clothing, so to make use of any references to cotton manufacture you need to check what the finished item was going to be. Jean michael tartaglio wrote >Hi, All. I think the consensus of most of the fabric/costume historians >on the subject of cotton (the plant) usage can be summed up as follows: >The plant has been grown for use as a cloth fiber in the Middle East, >North Africa and India for quite a long time. Therefore, it was most >probably available readily to those cultures. >It may have been available, albeit at a higher cost, to Southern >European cultures with trade in the Middle East (most notably Italy). >It was a rather costly item to Northern European countries up until the >3rd quarter of the 17th Cent., but was occasionally seen, especially >when woven as a weft in the manufacturing process with linen warp. >The term "cotton" or "cottoning" was used as a phrase in English >speaking references to describe a process done to woolen fabrics to >make them fluffy or napped. Perhaps this came to be because of their >access to raw cotton, which was definitely available as a stuffing or >padding (this may be because the cotton plant's fibers were small and >difficult to spin, or the market was there for the non-processed >product) which begat the name of a fluffing, napping process due to >it's resemblance to the plant material. >Round about the middle of the 17th Cent. seems to be the most confusion >as to the usage of the word "cotton" and what it means. >By about the 1670s, due perhaps to English interests in India, true >cotton (the plant) fabrics were much cheaper and more readily available >in Northern Europe, especially in England. >Hopefully this covers the salient points. >Now on to the nitty-gritty...What do you want to do with this info? >If it is for research, there is a lot of work to do searching out the >references. For example, you could see a reference to "cottons" being >produced in England for use by Cromwell's army in Ireland, but the >likelyhood that it is the plant material and not a woolen, for which >England was famous for centuries, is rather slim (i.e cottons as an >export out of England as opposed to an import). >If it is for clothing/costume, consider the source of your concern. >Does the group/person that you are clothing care about such fine >details? Perhaps, perhaps not. >Just my observations on an ancient topic, Mike T. >> >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Apr 3 17:42:38 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j33Lgbv6015355 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 17:42:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j33LeULV029370 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 3 Apr 2005 15:40:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j33LeNam011252; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 15:40:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j33LeJd7011174 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 15:40:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA15274 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 16:54:47 -0500 Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 16:54:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] perhaps to put a final note to an old debate (was cotton) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, Jean Waddie wrote: > One last point - I understand that cotton was used in Northen Europe > for household textiles a good bit earlier than for clothing, so to > make use of any references to cotton manufacture you need to check > what the finished item was going to be. I'm pretty certain that non-clothing usage accounts for a lot of the cotton trade that some people point to as "evidence" for cotton clothing in the 12th-14th centuries. I think as costumers we may find it easy to overlook the many, many other uses for textiles in general: upholstery, cushions, bed hangings, wall hangings, draperies, bed and table linens, wrapping, sacking, sailcloth, horse blankets, tents, stage scenery, banners ... not that all of these were cotton, of course, but that we have to remember that not every textile-related account entry or extant scrap had to do with clothing ... far from it. --Robin ========================================================== Robin Netherton // Editor at Large robin@nightowl.net voice: (314) 439-1222 // fax: (314) 439-1333 Life is just a bowl of queries. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Apr 3 17:55:16 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j33LtGX1015454 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 17:55:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j33LsCLV000283 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 3 Apr 2005 15:54:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j33Ls7Ng020097; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 15:54:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm12.prodigy.net (ylpvm12-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.43]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j33Ls47A020060 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 15:54:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from pimout6-ext.prodigy.net (pimout6-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.63.78]) by ylpvm12.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j33Lrxck028997 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 17:54:00 -0400 X-ORBL: [69.107.70.62] Received: from thelema.frys.com (adsl-69-107-70-62.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.70.62]) by pimout6-ext.prodigy.net (8.12.10 milter /8.12.10) with ESMTP id j33LrsHb342808 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 16:54:03 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20050403141000.02675258@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 14:15:19 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] Grommets and hooks and corsets oh my! In-Reply-To: <20050403175405.69137.qmail@web50603.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200504031500.j33F0N46061075@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >them unless they are small enough that one can push >the fibres aside and stuff the upper half of the >eyelet through rather than actually cutting the >fibres. I agree with your method. This is possible with up to half-inch grommets, tho the process is really slow. I then stitch over the grommet, so it looks like there's a metal ring reinforcement under the stitching. My latest bodice used only stitching for the lacing holes, no metal, and I too am a DD. It lasted two faire seasons, and the lacing holes had not worn out by the time I retired it. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Apr 3 21:50:05 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j341nvsC016668 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:50:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j341mdLV017582 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 3 Apr 2005 19:48:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j341mS62067546; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 19:48:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rastaban.dandy.net (rastaban.dandy.net [209.128.224.29]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j341mPwQ067436 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 19:48:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mikes@dandy.net) Received: from [209.128.248.148] (@acty3148.dialup.dandy.net [209.128.248.148]) by rastaban.dandy.net (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j341mG1Y025446 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:48:16 -0400 Message-ID: <42509CD7.20604@dandy.net> Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 21:48:07 -0400 From: michael tartaglio User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] perhaps to put a final note to an old debate (was cotton) References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi. This is an interesting concept, and as much as I agree, I can't help wondering how this all plays out in the general run of things. I am curious as to how many products such as those mentioned were manufactured, then sent abroad as completed imports (draperies, napkins, tablecloths, etc.), and how many were made at the end of the line from the fabric as it was available. In the latter case, then, what would stop anyone from making anything they wanted from the material? Was cotton (the plant fiber fabric) viewed by some Northern European cultures in the earlier to mid Medieval period as being intrinsically better or more proper for, lets say, bedding linens, wall hangings or sacking ? Where is a point in a culture when material that was sold for one use starts being used for another? I never thought, really, of Medieval folks as being of the mindset (aside from finickyness about social station issues and cost) that would prevent them from doing anything they wanted once they got their hands on a bolt of any fabric, much less something that was imported (kind of like silk) and perhaps costlier than linen, hemp or nettle fabrics (the homemade, but still well made stuff). If anyone has any definitive descriptions of finished cotton (the plant fiber) fabrics being used for specifically non-clothing uses, I would be curious to see them. I could imagine if they were of a fancy weave with a specific pattern, the Church might have used some for liturgical drapery, but that doesn't account for domestic consumption. Perhaps cotton was first introduced into Northern Europe in a sort of analog to the flour sack or feedbag clothing from the Depression era in the US (Hey, wow! What is this great cloth that these Syrian glasses are wrapped in? I'm gonna give it to my wife and see what she can make with it!!) Thanks for all of the great discussion, Mike T. > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Sun Apr 3 22:15:00 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j342ExRA016802 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 22:15:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j342DELV019527 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 3 Apr 2005 20:13:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j342DBdi084026; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 20:13:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from a.mail.sonic.net (a.mail.sonic.net [64.142.16.245]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j342D8S7083989 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 20:13:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from fran@lavoltapress.com) Received: from lavoltapress.com (dial-209-148-114-85.sonic.net [209.148.114.85]) (authenticated bits=0) by a.mail.sonic.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j342D62r021369 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 19:13:07 -0700 Message-ID: <4250A2B5.2070707@lavoltapress.com> Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 19:13:09 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: h-costume@indra.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] A silk garment filched by a monk? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I remember this story from one of my history classes and just looked it up again on the net. SULPITIUS SEVERUS ON THE LIFE OF ST. MARTIN (SULPITIUS (or Sulpicius) SEVERUS was born in Aquitania about A.D. 363, and died, as is generally supposed, in A.D. 420.) A Case of Diabolic Deception. THERE was a certain man, Clarus by name, a most noble youth, who afterwards became a presbyter, and who is now, through his happy departure from this world, numbered among the saints. He, leaving all others, betook himself to Martin, and in a short time became distinguished for the most exalted faith, and for all sorts of excellence. Now, it came to pass that, when he had erected an abode for himself not far from the monastery of the bishop, and many brethren were staying with him, a certain youth, Anatolius by name, having, under the profession of a monk, falsely assumed every appearance of humility and innocence, came to him, and lived for some time on the common store along with the rest. Then, as time went on, he began to affirm that angels were in the habit of talking with him. As no one gave any credit to his words, he urged a number of the brethren to believe by certain signs. At length he went to such a length as to declare that angels passed between him and God; and now he wished that he should be regarded as one of the prophets. Clarus, however, could by no means be induced to believe. He then began to threaten Clarus with the anger of God and present afflictions, because he did not believe one of the saints. At the last, he is related to have burst forth with the following declaration: "Behold, the Lord will this night give me a white robe out of heaven, clothed in which, I will dwell in the midst of you; and that will be to you a sign that I am the Power of God, inasmuch as I have been presented with the garment of God." Then truly the expectation of all was highly raised by this profession. Accordingly, about the middle of the night, it was seen, by the noise of people moving eagerly about, that the whole monastery in the place was excited. It might be seen, too, that the cell in which the young man referred to lived was glittering with numerous lights; and the whisperings of those moving about in it, as well as a kind of murmur of many. voices, could be heard. Then, on silence being secured, the youth coming forth calls one of the brethren, Sabatius by name, to himself, and shows him the robe in which he had been clothed. He again, filled with amazement, gathers the rest together, and Clarus himself also runs up; and a light being obtained, they all carefully inspect the garment. Now, it was of the utmost softness, of marvelous brightness, and of glittering purple, and yet no one could discover what was its nature, or of what sort of fleece it had been formed. However, when it was more minutely examined by the eyes or fingers, it seemed nothing else than a garment. In the meantime, Clarus urges upon the brethren to be earnest in prayer, that the Lord would show them more clearly what it really was. Accordingly, the rest of the night was spent in singing hymns and psalms. But when day broke, Clarus wished to take the young man by the hand, and bring him to Martin, being well aware that he could not be deceived by any arts of the devil. Then, indeed, the miserable man began to resist and refuse, and affirmed that he had been forbidden to show himself to Martin. And when they compelled him to go against his will, the garment vanished from among the hands of those who were conducting him. Wherefore, who can doubt that this, too, was an illustration of the power of Martin, so that the devil could no longer dissemble or conceal his own deception, when it was to be submitted to the eyes of Martin? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 00:25:06 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j344P6mc017263 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 00:25:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j344NBLV029187 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 3 Apr 2005 22:23:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j344N4g9069595; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 22:23:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j344N1L4069559 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 22:23:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA17974 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 23:37:31 -0500 Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 23:37:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] perhaps to put a final note to an old debate (was cotton) In-Reply-To: <42509CD7.20604@dandy.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, michael tartaglio wrote: > Hi. This is an interesting concept, and as much as I agree, I can't > help wondering how this all plays out in the general run of things. I > am curious as to how many products such as those mentioned were > manufactured, then sent abroad as completed imports (draperies, > napkins, tablecloths, etc.), and how many were made at the end of the > line from the fabric as it was available. In the latter case, then, > what would stop anyone from making anything they wanted from the > material? Was cotton (the plant fiber fabric) viewed by some Northern > European cultures in the earlier to mid Medieval period as being > intrinsically better or more proper for, lets say, bedding linens, > wall hangings or sacking ? Where is a point in a culture when material > that was sold for one use starts being used for another? I never > thought, really, of Medieval folks as being of the mindset (aside from > finickyness about social station issues and cost) that would prevent > them from doing anything they wanted once they got their hands on a > bolt of any fabric, much less something that was imported (kind of > like silk) and perhaps costlier than linen, hemp or nettle fabrics > (the homemade, but still well made stuff). On the contrary, there's plenty of evidence for just such a mindset in medieval Western Europe, in that there was a clear preference for certain uses for fabrics based on their intrinsic qualities. For example, undyed (often bleached) linen was far and away *the* fabric for bed linens and table linens (that's why we still call them "linens"), toweling, underwear, and certain other garments such as coifs, as well as linings for non-underwear garments but has essentially no presence as outer (visible) layers of gowns, where wool was the dominant choice, and silk an alternative for the wealthy. This difference in usage makes sense when considering the properties of the fabrics as regards dye depth/permanence, washability, wearability, strength/stretch, etc. Preferences changed over time; in the 16th c. we see linen used for outer layers -- but by then the economics and types of garments were extremely different. And obviously preferences changed by geographic region, reflecting differences in culture, climate, availability/expense of different materials, etc. Differences in garment construction and fashions might have contributed in part to the different preferences in fabric by place and time, but I suspect the influence worked the other way -- garment construction almost certainly reflected the availability of particular materials to work with. If your culture's dominant available fabric is cotton, you will end up with different garment constructions than if it's wool, because the fabrics behave differently in use. And if you try to make something out of cotton that was designed to be made out of a fabric with the properties of wool, you're often going to end up with an unsatisfactory result. Sometimes it doesn't matter, of course, but for many uses, fabrics are not interchangeable with equally acceptable results. There's ample evidence, including suviving artifacts, of cotton being used for home decor, embroidery, etc. in W. Europe from (I think) the 12th or 13th c.; it doesn't seem to show up in garments till much later. Sorry I don't have cites at my fingertips; this is not my area of expertise. Let's just say that of the inventories and other documents I do read in my period and place of interest (14th/early 15th c. France/Flanders/England), there's plenty of references to linen, wool, and silk for garments, and a notable absence of cotton. But I occasionally notice the presence of cotton in non-garment uses from this period (e.g. a cushion in a museum exhibit). Cotton also shows up as a stuffing or padding material, including for garment use. One of the existing pourpoints -- not Charles de Blois, the other one, is it Charles V? -- has cotton interlayers, and I believe that's the fiber, not fabric. FWIW, I have personally found cotton highly inferior to work with from a purely mechanical standpoint in making clothing of the 14th century (understanding that modern cotton fabrics may not be reflective of medieval ones, of course, but that same handicap occurs with any modern fabric). I frankly would not be surprised if medieval garment-makers had the same experience; given the expense of cotton, why would they want to spend that much money on yard goods and end up with something that fit badly, wore poorly, and was uncomfortable in wear? Better to use that cloth for a wall hanging or embroidery ground. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 01:05:38 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j3455beV017400 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 01:05:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3454PLV001903 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 3 Apr 2005 23:04:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j3454F7o096139; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 23:04:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from jay.exetel.com.au (jay.exetel.com.au [220.233.0.8]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j3454B09096049 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 23:04:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from glendarob@exemail.com.au) Received: (qmail 29684 invoked by uid 507); 4 Apr 2005 15:04:05 +1000 Received: from 249.88.233.220.exetel.com.au (HELO mycomputer) (220.233.88.249) by jay.exetel.com.au with SMTP; 4 Apr 2005 15:04:05 +1000 Message-ID: <084901c538d3$c32ba700$0302a8c0@mycomputer> From: To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] perhaps to put a final note to an old debate (was cotton) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:04:20 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Robin wrote: > FWIW, I have personally found cotton highly inferior to work with from a > purely mechanical standpoint in making clothing of the 14th century I have also found it inferior in the laundry. Dirt seem to wash out of my linens heaps easier than any cotton worn to the same events. Wool, of course, is a dream! Glenda. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 01:54:56 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j345stV8017605 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 01:54:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j345rjLV004614 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 3 Apr 2005 23:53:46 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j345rXWu025313; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 23:53:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web41903.mail.yahoo.com (web41903.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.154]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j345rUBU025214 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 23:53:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from seamuslady@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 98900 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Apr 2005 05:53:25 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=jb6x2uLe2J3/WEyzMfMPXAkFxhudeKcrLqpGV5DraP8R7V4T+5zkS1MPZztHmfgAs04rJYYBrma9YawptoCg5RIOO3VK2oEAZDxuckGKdwxqMmUQCujIp2PgPDvdYksodCEdVcRR3QsAHhFOotJzbogYtcdtgozC8T4NkJn5fmg= ; Message-ID: <20050404055325.98898.qmail@web41903.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.8.166.114] by web41903.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 03 Apr 2005 22:53:25 PDT Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 22:53:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Lady Satine Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fwd: Medieval gowns To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thanks.... I hope so. I needed to Vent... Satine Adele de Maisieres wrote: Lady Satine wrote: >I have a question for Adele about Bliaults.... Would you now of any websites taht have information about them and possible construction???? or good reference books I may be able to find...... Thanks > > Hi Satine-- Sadly, no-- just the websites I suggested in my email. This is well outside my area. > >GNL Question How far back to Corsets really go?????? I am in a debate with a lady a DD cup and insists on everything WAY to TIGHT and corseting all she puts on. including Viking, Roman, Kirtles, Cotehardies and Italian Ren ( the pregnant looking style) .... and it looks well to be extremely nice about it. she looks plain! awlful......How does one deal with a person who will not listen to even Laurels that she was misinformed???????? > > Some time in the 16th century, as far as anyone knows. I wouldn't worry about it, actually... she's not interested in being told she's wrong ust at the moment, but it's probably a phase and she'll get over it. Adele _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Better first dates. More second dates. Yahoo! Personals _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 02:00:16 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j3460GHZ017654 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 02:00:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j345xVLV004925 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 3 Apr 2005 23:59:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j345xSHA028788; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 23:59:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from isis.ntw.net (isis.ntw.net [199.165.233.10]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j345xRve028700 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 23:59:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sylvia@ntw.net) Received: from [206.124.3.44] (p28.3c01.pm.dimcom.net [206.124.3.44]) by isis.ntw.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j345ud008369 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 23:56:40 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <5faf019f0fdd8970f090a12e44a1bfeb@ntw.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sylvia Rognstad Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: medieval gown Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 00:07:12 -0600 To: Historical Costume X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO It's definitely too fitted not to have a closure and since it is not historically accurate, what would you all suggest? Grommets? Fabric loops? Rings? I'm going to put the closure on the back, not at the sides. Sylrog On Apr 3, 2005, at 3:44 PM, Gail & Scott Finke wrote: > > I second everything -- very pretty, but not medieval. Besides that, I > don't > see why it needs to lace or zipper closed at all. From the photo on the > pattern, anyway, it doesn't look fitted enough to require any sort of > closure. It looks like it has enough ease built in to be able to > wiggle into > it. Depending on the lady's size and shape, that is. > > Gail Finke > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 02:17:10 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j346HAk1023094 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 02:17:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j346G7LV006485 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 00:16:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j346G2hK039511; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 00:16:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j346FxEJ039443 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 00:16:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA18744 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 01:30:30 -0500 Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 01:30:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: medieval gown In-Reply-To: <5faf019f0fdd8970f090a12e44a1bfeb@ntw.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Mon, 4 Apr 2005, Sylvia Rognstad wrote: > It's definitely too fitted not to have a closure and since it is not > historically accurate, what would you all suggest? Grommets? Fabric > loops? Rings? I'm going to put the closure on the back, not at the > sides. The best solution would be hand-made eyelets. I have posted here before on how I do them; they are surprisingly easy and fast, and they wear very well. However, I remember you said you were not eager to do these. I have not seen any examples of fabric loops in the middle ages, though some people swear they must have existed. My experience with them is that it's hard to make them look good and pull up evenly. If you're going to be putting any strain on the seam at all, I wouldn't recommend them. Nor have I seen metal grommets or metal eyelets. However, small metal eyelets in the color of the fabric would probably look more like hand-made eyelets than anything else. When you put them in, pry the fabric threads apart with an awl rather than punching a hole. If you punch a hole, your eyelets will start popping out within the first couple of wearings. If your eyelets are on a vertical line, you may need to cut one or two of the threads running vertically through the middle of the eyelets at each of the holes, to avoid puckering. Lacing rings appear by the 15th century at least, probably a little earlier. I feel sure I've seen them in the 14th century in Italy. But for your purposes, they would probably be harder than making your own eyelets by hand. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 03:20:40 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j347KdL0011568 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 03:20:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j347JYLV009950 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 01:19:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j347JYTQ079320; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 01:19:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web41809.mail.yahoo.com (web41809.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.143]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j347JW49079268 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 01:19:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from celticredhead2002@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 63750 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Apr 2005 07:19:26 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=lIrm6mKD81zRP6pgCcYUKDhyAnilUYPbvi5ao0cqU01J5UlsnCxKOM1WKHY3tr4NzqawGCUL5wIiemaxLkkFlAF+y9gcYFsdFOogEJVHo5h3f7MxAVSqRME/hWPfNgSoQQ0BvPKu2D0zKjoh2HQjcdjNw0daiCZ3mZ+zaa8BmE0= ; Message-ID: <20050404071926.63748.qmail@web41809.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.14.182.126] by web41809.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 00:19:26 PDT Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 00:19:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Melody Watts Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fwd: Medieval gowns No taste in corsets or fashions To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO --- Lady Satine wrote: > snip > GNL Question How far back to Corsets really go?????? > I am in a debate with a lady a DD cup and insists > on everything WAY to TIGHT and corseting all she > puts on. including Viking, Roman, Kirtles, > Cotehardies and Italian Ren ( the pregnant looking > style) .... and it looks well to be extremely nice > about it. she looks plain! awlful......How does one > deal with a person who will not listen to even > Laurels that she was misinformed???????? > > Thanks for the advice and help > Satine > Well, I found out after making my sis a Ren outfit,to save your sanity & friendship you just smile and nod. She probably knows she looks awful,but some people are too proud to say "i was wrong". My sis wanted an authentic Eliz. outfit, when we went shopping for material- she headed straight for the acetate velvet cut pile stuff. Ok, its her dime... I had to squeeze the tears back int omy eyes when she then proceeded to pick out gold acetate sheer w/glitter accents pasted on with tiny gold plastic-rubber balls glued all over it for the chemise. I cut the goods out,sewed it up to her measurements, gave it to her for faire and she insisted it was too big. ( She has this incredible ability to smoosh her waist into this circulation cutting off curcumference,which frankly looks probably worse then Ms.DD because she has really high hips , she ends up looking like a"spade" symbol turned upside down) But she thinks she look fine so out came the machine,-5 alterations later.....she's happily smooshed into her 24" waist size,40" hips. So remember, smile & nod,eventually she'll see the light.... > Melody > > Robin Netherton wrote: > > On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, michaela wrote: > > > > > I finally have a couple questions I know you > experts can help me with. > > > > I got a commission to make a medieval dress > for an SCA woman, based > > > > on Butterick 3552-- > > > > > http://store.sewingtoday.com/cgi-bin/butterick/shop.cgi? > > > search=3552&s.search.all.x=14&s.search.all.y=14&TI=10001&M=&pageSize=9. > > > > Well... if as Adele says it's to be a Bliaut > inspired ensemble, then > > disregard everything I'm about to say;) > > > > It could also be based on early 16thC > Dutch/Flemish styles... > > It could be a lot of things! It has cosmetic > elements of various styles > from over 500 years mixed together and then > translated to modern > construction. It has a general medievalish look to > it, which is fine for > many uses (including SCA if you're not entering any > competitions and > aren't concerned about accuracy to a single period). > But the best you > could do in nailing down a period would be to call > it "Pre-Raphaelite." > > Period methods for things like sleeve seam placement > varied from one > period to another, and depended on having the entire > dress made in a > consistent historical method. Changing an element > here or there to match > the rules of one period won't make the rest of the > dress period. As Adele > said, if you're going to declare that this is > supposed to be 12th century, > you might not rotate the sleeve seam, but then you'd > also probably be > putting in gussets under the arms and not doing a > set-in sleeve at all, > and you'd be doing side lacing instead of back, and > no princess seams, and > a different neckline. If you're going to pick up on > some other details and > assume it's late 15th c., you might keep the > neckline, but you'd change > the placement and curves of those princess seams, > build in a foundation or > add an underdress, get rid of the upper-arm bands, > use hidden lacings (and > probably not in the back), etc. > > (I have no idea where that weird train comes from.) > > If your friend is happy with the style of the dress > and it makes her feel > medieval, it will do the job. You obviously want to > get rid of the truly > obvious element -- the zipper -- and choose a fabric > and color that has at > least some semblance of being medieval. But I > wouldn't suggest rotating > seams or making other changes in hopes of making it > more "period" unless > you know which particular period you're emulating > ... and if you know > that, you probably don't want this pattern as a > starting point. Isolated > changes really won't have much impact on the overall > "periodness," and > they may not work as desired because the pattern was > designed to work with > modern construction methods. > > --Robin > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > __________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 03:21:39 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j347LcSh011683 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 03:21:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j347KELV009983 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 01:20:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j347KEok079815; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 01:20:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo1.socket.net (mo1b.socket.net [216.106.88.130]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j347KDjZ079799 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 01:20:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf1.socket.net (mf1.socket.net [216.106.88.20]) by mo1.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43CB538C0C for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 02:20:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t1p180.socket.net [64.85.214.182]) by mf1.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 48AFEC5FF for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 02:20:12 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: medieval gown Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 02:20:09 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <5faf019f0fdd8970f090a12e44a1bfeb@ntw.net> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Before you settle on the back, perhaps you need to know how well the customer will be able to lace it closed if it is in the back. Will she needing assistance to lace herself up? Will she be wearing a shift under the gown? De -----Original Message----- I'm going to put the closure on the back, not at the sides. Sylrog _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 03:21:49 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j347Lmf5011697 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 03:21:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j347FhLV009779 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 01:15:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j347FaNX076900; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 01:15:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web41905.mail.yahoo.com (web41905.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.156]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j347FY9g076818 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 01:15:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from seamuslady@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 40705 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Apr 2005 07:15:29 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=4slAoV1QH/y+9+RT/hbRyRzbXJKWkRlBBknWoI/SkpK3aFk7B6gb7ZO1WczyAYOcb90E72/1Lq6/Zel6+QXlf18Q6SDDR/oXAbIn/GDCoAQ97gSxz3JpFyzxUT4o295You3zI8+nByRPruaf4yRFfEg/NEbqUYMCFuskrq2e9LQ= ; Message-ID: <20050404071529.40703.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.8.166.114] by web41905.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 00:15:29 PDT Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 00:15:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Lady Satine To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <20050403175405.69137.qmail@web50603.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Thank you! for the guidance! X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I want to thank Everyone for the Guidance. It has helped. I am going to do nothing. Just ride it out... Thank you for letting me Vent! Satine --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Better first dates. More second dates. Yahoo! Personals _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 07:35:01 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34BZ0OZ020292 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:35:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34BXuLV006275 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 05:33:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34BXhXm021445; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 05:33:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34BXebu021429 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 05:33:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cahuff@mindspring.com) Received: from user-2inikbn.dialup.mindspring.com ([165.121.81.119] helo=[10.0.1.2]) by hall.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1DIPpr-0004BQ-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 07:33:39 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200504040554.j345rXHm025317@net.indra.com> References: <200504040554.j345rXHm025317@net.indra.com> Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:33:34 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: fastusminimus Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Cotton X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 11:54 PM -0600 4/3/05, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote: >I am >curious as to how many products such as those mentioned were >manufactured, then sent abroad as completed imports (draperies, napkins, >tablecloths, etc.), and how many were made at the end of the line from >the fabric as it was available. In the latter case, then, what would >stop anyone from making anything they wanted from the material? Style and fashion Would you wear say burlap to the office? It's a frustrating thing--technologically you might have X (think Viking pink!) BUT the 64,000 lira question is was it worn? As a fashion challenged person in the Modern world and a techno geek in dyes and fibers I find many of my questions lie in the was it stylish, or even worn range.... Ta Carol-- drying out after ~7 inches of rain in less than 12 days.... -- Creative Clutter is Better Than Idle Neatness! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 09:43:21 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34DhLsl022379 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 09:43:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34DedLV014318 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:40:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34DeS0M001529; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:40:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from isis.ntw.net (isis.ntw.net [199.165.233.10]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34DeMjX001473 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:40:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sylvia@ntw.net) Received: from [206.124.3.30] (p14.3c01.pm.dimcom.net [206.124.3.30]) by isis.ntw.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j34Dbd025490 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:37:40 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sylvia Rognstad Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: medieval gown Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:48:14 -0600 To: Historical Costume X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Her boyfriend is also in the SCA so she has him to assist her. I imagine she will just be wearing her normal undergarments. She wants a placket under the back opening. On Apr 4, 2005, at 1:20 AM, otsisto wrote: > Before you settle on the back, perhaps you need to know how well the > customer will be able to lace it closed if it is in the back. Will she > needing assistance to lace herself up? > Will she be wearing a shift under the gown? > > De > > -----Original Message----- > I'm going to put the closure on the back, not at the > sides. > > Sylrog > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 10:44:04 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34Ei4l9023808 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:44:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34EfmLV020207 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:41:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34EfVhv053227; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:41:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo1.socket.net (esmtp.socket.net [216.106.88.132]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34EfLc9053113 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:41:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf1.socket.net (mf1.socket.net [216.106.88.20]) by mo1.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F2AA38CB9 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 09:41:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t2p410.socket.net [64.85.217.156]) by mf1.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 21319C609 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 09:41:20 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: medieval gown Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 09:41:20 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ummmm...I don't think that the times she dresses in the women's bathroom that her boyfriend will be able to help and you do not always have someone there who is able to help. But if lacing in the back is all you can sew then thats all you can sew. Another thing you can do for lacing holes if you don't want to make button holes is use hooks and eyes. Pairing the eyes with eyes and hooks with hooks. Bottom half of the opening would have hooks and the upper half with eyes. Does that make sense? De -----Original Message----- Her boyfriend is also in the SCA so she has him to assist her. I imagine she will just be wearing her normal undergarments. She wants a placket under the back opening. On Apr 4, 2005, at 1:20 AM, otsisto wrote: _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 11:09:08 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34F98P3023969 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 11:09:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34F7AM5023013 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 09:07:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34EpHvD062080; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:51:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp801.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp801.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [66.163.168.180]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j34EpE40062014 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:51:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from maggie.gene@justinanimator.com) Received: from unknown (HELO the-new-beast.sbcglobal.net) (justin.barrett@sbcglobal.net@68.93.120.119 with login) by smtp801.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Apr 2005 14:51:12 -0000 Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.0.20050404091854.03f1c2e0@mail.justinanimator.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.1.2 Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 09:27:31 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Genie Barrett In-Reply-To: <20050404055325.98898.qmail@web41903.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050404055325.98898.qmail@web41903.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Bliauts, was Medieval gowns X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Lady Satine stepped close to the microphone and whispered: > >I have a question for Adele about Bliaults.... Would you now of any > websites taht have information about them and possible construction???? > or good reference books I may be able to find...... Thanks > > > > >Hi Satine-- > >Sadly, no-- just the websites I suggested in my email. This is well >outside my area. There is a new speculative pamphlet that the SCA put out recently about the bliaut. If you go to http://www.sca.org/members/marketplace.html and order Compleat Anacronist number 124 - summer 2004 (it's so new it isn't on their list, but you can probably get it hard copy) "Elles'Habille en Bliaut: Haute Coutre of the 12th Century" by Grace Payne I don't agree with the construction speculation she uses, I really like the number of actual statues that she sites. Great bibliography as well. The biggest problem with the Bliaut is that there is so little evidence of it, and it's almost all French, or so it seems. Good luck Genie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 11:58:15 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34FwB7c024225 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 11:58:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34FtkLV028651 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 09:55:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34FtZH4023479; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 09:55:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from providenceday.org (treebeard.providenceday.org [66.193.73.82]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34FtW7Y023365 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 09:55:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from grace.morris@providenceday.org) Received: from [172.20.1.3] (HELO providenceday.org) by providenceday.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.6) with ESMTP id 2920921 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 11:56:04 -0400 Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 11:55:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bliauts, was Medieval gowns Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Grace Morris To: Historical Costume Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050404091854.03f1c2e0@mail.justinanimator.com> Message-Id: <040A9996-A522-11D9-B9DB-000393DA0BCC@providenceday.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO The bliaut is discussed/argued AT LENGTH by many very knowledgeable people on an SCA yahoo list. (12thcenturygarb-subscribe@yahoogroups.com) If you are interested in very serious discussions, this is the place to go. In the meantime: http://bliautlady.50megs.com/ http://www.chateau-michel.org/belle_bliaut.htm http://web.comhem.se/~u41200125/rutigbliaut.html Grace/Jessamyn jessamynscloset.com On Monday, April 4, 2005, at 10:27 AM, Genie Barrett wrote: > Lady Satine stepped close to the microphone and whispered: > >> >I have a question for Adele about Bliaults.... Would you now of any >> websites taht have information about them and possible >> construction???? or good reference books I may be able to find...... >> Thanks >> > >> > >> Hi Satine-- >> >> Sadly, no-- just the websites I suggested in my email. This is well >> outside my area. > > There is a new speculative pamphlet that the SCA put out recently > about the bliaut. If you go to > http://www.sca.org/members/marketplace.html and order Compleat > Anacronist number 124 - summer 2004 (it's so new it isn't on their > list, but you can probably get it hard copy) "Elles'Habille en > Bliaut: Haute Coutre of the 12th Century" by Grace Payne > > I don't agree with the construction speculation she uses, I really > like the number of actual statues that she sites. Great bibliography > as well. The biggest problem with the Bliaut is that there is so > little evidence of it, and it's almost all French, or so it seems. > > Good luck > Genie > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 12:04:55 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34G4sdr024256 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 12:04:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34G3ULV029571 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:03:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34G2m2R030305; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:03:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.floodcity.net (mail.floodcity.net [198.93.208.40]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34G2iam030242 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:02:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from basyefelton@floodcity.net) Received: from dialup-0083.floodcity.net ([198.93.211.83]:3444 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by mail.floodcity.net with esmtp id 1DIU2G-0005uq-66 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 12:02:45 -0400 Message-ID: <42516521.6010204@floodcity.net> Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 12:02:41 -0400 From: Kitty Felton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: medieval gown References: <5faf019f0fdd8970f090a12e44a1bfeb@ntw.net> In-Reply-To: <5faf019f0fdd8970f090a12e44a1bfeb@ntw.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Sylvia Rognstad wrote: > It's definitely too fitted not to have a closure and since it is not > historically accurate, what would you all suggest? Grommets? Fabric > loops? Rings? I'm going to put the closure on the back, not at the > sides. > > Sylrog what about an inseam hidden zip under the right arm. very popular in the fourties and fifties and good for fitted garments. it would remove the closure method from being a factor in deciding what period it is. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 13:48:03 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34Hm3wK024954 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:48:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34HkfLV014766 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 11:46:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34HkORx034112; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 11:46:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from isis.ntw.net (isis.ntw.net [199.165.233.10]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34HkLOH034046 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 11:46:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sylvia@ntw.net) Received: from [206.124.3.109] (p45.3c02.pm.dimcom.net [206.124.3.109]) by isis.ntw.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j34Hhb009803 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 11:43:37 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sylvia Rognstad Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: medieval gown Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 11:54:12 -0600 To: Historical Costume X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Sorry, but I'm not understanding you. How can you just put hooks or eyes on both sides of the garment? On Apr 4, 2005, at 8:41 AM, otsisto wrote: > Ummmm...I don't think that the times she dresses in the women's > bathroom > that her boyfriend will be able to help and you do not always have > someone > there who is able to help. But if lacing in the back is all you can > sew then > thats all you can sew. > > Another thing you can do for lacing holes > if you don't want to make button holes is use hooks and eyes. Pairing > the > eyes with eyes and hooks with hooks. Bottom half of the opening would > have > hooks and the upper half with eyes. Does that make sense? > > De > > -----Original Message----- > Her boyfriend is also in the SCA so she has him to assist her. I > imagine she will just be wearing her normal undergarments. She wants > a placket under the back opening. > > On Apr 4, 2005, at 1:20 AM, otsisto wrote: > > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 13:51:35 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34HpYg7024990 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:51:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34HoSLV015176 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 11:50:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34HoRkb037940; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 11:50:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web41905.mail.yahoo.com (web41905.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.156]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j34Hl83q034740 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 11:47:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from seamuslady@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 24157 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Apr 2005 17:47:02 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=siwmtPimbl0OyiMqfWwXXfXhLbjwfJlm2fgMNjksMFqOYJCXkqX+t7hDZ0B5gab2HNIrHskv+3nigLp3W2e02di3TJVSqdxiRfU2/1fkPD2pspaAH/MyJI42DNjS1EOyeW54LZoZKkub7XHGah5HjQR1kYW186+AkQfwH1Zukj8= ; Message-ID: <20050404174702.24155.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.8.166.119] by web41905.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 10:47:02 PDT Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:47:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Lady Satine Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bliauts, was Medieval gowns To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-DCC-xmailer-Metrics: net.indra.com 1192; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Than you for the sites I will check them out! Satine Grace Morris wrote: The bliaut is discussed/argued AT LENGTH by many very knowledgeable people on an SCA yahoo list. (12thcenturygarb-subscribe@yahoogroups.com) If you are interested in very serious discussions, this is the place to go. In the meantime: http://bliautlady.50megs.com/ http://www.chateau-michel.org/belle_bliaut.htm http://web.comhem.se/~u41200125/rutigbliaut.html Grace/Jessamyn jessamynscloset.com On Monday, April 4, 2005, at 10:27 AM, Genie Barrett wrote: > Lady Satine stepped close to the microphone and whispered: > >> >I have a question for Adele about Bliaults.... Would you now of any >> websites taht have information about them and possible >> construction???? or good reference books I may be able to find...... >> Thanks >> > >> > >> Hi Satine-- >> >> Sadly, no-- just the websites I suggested in my email. This is well >> outside my area. > > There is a new speculative pamphlet that the SCA put out recently > about the bliaut. If you go to > http://www.sca.org/members/marketplace.html and order Compleat > Anacronist number 124 - summer 2004 (it's so new it isn't on their > list, but you can probably get it hard copy) "Elles'Habille en > Bliaut: Haute Coutre of the 12th Century" by Grace Payne > > I don't agree with the construction speculation she uses, I really > like the number of actual statues that she sites. Great bibliography > as well. The biggest problem with the Bliaut is that there is so > little evidence of it, and it's almost all French, or so it seems. > > Good luck > Genie > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Better first dates. More second dates. Yahoo! Personals _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 14:02:17 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34I2GdZ025076 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:02:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34I0hLV016551 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 12:00:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34I0cEP047590; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 12:00:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.38]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34I0XQ0047481 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 12:00:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ms154@cornell.edu) Received: from Bellview.cornell.edu ([128.253.111.234]) by postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j34I0Wef001927 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:00:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20050404135905.01e5cbf0@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ms154@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 14:00:30 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: M Stewart Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bliauts, was Medieval gowns In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050404091854.03f1c2e0@mail.justinanimator.com> References: <20050404055325.98898.qmail@web41903.mail.yahoo.com> <20050404055325.98898.qmail@web41903.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Glad to know I'm not the only person with some serious doubts about that construction theory. Maybe I'll go read those other lists... see if anyone is thinking in the same direction I am. Bridgette. >I don't agree with the construction speculation she uses, I really like >the number of actual statues that she sites. Great bibliography as >well. The biggest problem with the Bliaut is that there is so little >evidence of it, and it's almost all French, or so it seems. > >Good luck >Genie Mari Stewart Webmaster College of Veterinary Medicine Cornell University _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 14:05:37 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34I5bWl025092 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:05:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34I4XLV016988 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 12:04:33 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34I4VPH051261; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 12:04:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail12.mdx.safepages.com (mail12.mdx.safepages.com [216.127.154.242]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34I4S78051153 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 12:04:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from formfunc@formfunction.org) Received: by mail12.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix, from userid 1012) id 8231EB952; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:04:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from compaqub (1Cust74.tnt2.ofallon.mo.da.uu.net [65.239.178.74]) by mail12.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 00689B5D4 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:04:26 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <019901c53940$e119c5e0$0400a8c0@compaqub> From: "E House" To: "Historical Costume" Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:05:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] historical movie costumes X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id j34I5bWl025092 Status: RO Does anyone know of websites that might display historically themed movie or theatre costumes from the past, ideally from the 1930s-1960s? I'm not looking for _accurate_ costumes, just for nicely done examples of the popular conceptions of medieval clothing--costumes from 'Robin Hood,' 'Camelot', 'A CT Yankee in King Arthur's Court,' that sort of thing. Something along the lines of the link recently provided for theatrical costumes from that Canadian museum (their name slips my mind, unfortunately) would be perfect. -E House _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 14:15:34 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34IFX8b025160 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:15:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34IEELV018601 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 12:14:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34IDmPv060220; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 12:13:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail14.mdx.safepages.com (mail14.mdx.safepages.com [216.127.154.244]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34IDfNT060096 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 12:13:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from formfunc@formfunction.org) Received: by mail14.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix, from userid 1012) id 069EE1ECD91; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:13:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from compaqub (1Cust74.tnt2.ofallon.mo.da.uu.net [65.239.178.74]) by mail14.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8E8E61ECD7D for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:13:38 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <01cb01c53942$2c17cff0$0400a8c0@compaqub> From: "E House" To: "Historical Costume" References: <040A9996-A522-11D9-B9DB-000393DA0BCC@providenceday.org> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bliauts, was Medieval gowns Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:14:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Could someone give a quick description of this new, speculative theory of bliaut construction? -E House _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 14:47:12 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34IlCji025351 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:47:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34IjrLV023956 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 12:45:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34Ijl2v092736; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 12:45:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from barry.mail.mindspring.net (barry.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.25]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34Ijf4M092668 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 12:45:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cahuff@mindspring.com) Received: from user-38lcijm.dialup.mindspring.com ([209.86.74.118] helo=[10.0.1.2]) by barry.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 1DIWZq-0002DP-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 14:45:35 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200504041801.j34I0Jm3047238@net.indra.com> References: <200504041801.j34I0Jm3047238@net.indra.com> Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:45:27 -0400 To: h-costume@indra.com From: fastusminimus Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 12:01 PM -0600 4/4/05, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote: >Well Drat! Just got word from Barnes & Noble that this title would not >be available on the published date, something about 'delayed at the >publisher', and they would email be again if it was going to be over 30 >days. Anyone else received this notice? Yup--that's what ya get for going for the lowest price on the planet I can wait! Sort of... Ta Carol, who managed to save enough on this and AS Dress to afford both...and then some OOP books turned up--SIGH Including ML Ryder for mega $$$$ -- Creative Clutter is Better Than Idle Neatness! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 15:10:11 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34JAB4a025631 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:10:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34J8wLV027229 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:08:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34J8bH5013332; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:08:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.38]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34J8SI7013164 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:08:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ms154@cornell.edu) Received: from Bellview.cornell.edu ([128.253.111.234]) by postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j34J8Qef001350 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:08:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20050404145436.01e51e50@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ms154@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 15:08:26 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: M Stewart Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bliauts, was Medieval gowns In-Reply-To: <01cb01c53942$2c17cff0$0400a8c0@compaqub> References: <040A9996-A522-11D9-B9DB-000393DA0BCC@providenceday.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi there... I don't usually paddle around in the Bliaut pool... but I follow sewing technology and construction techniques almost fanatically. What struck me as incongruous about the construction in the "Creative Anachronist" was that the author used a complex compound curve to form the join between the body and the skirt. This is bliaut... this is "early medieval" we have centuries to go before we see our other first curve, the armhole. So the proposal that the bliaut used a compound curve is - in my opinion - out there. I won't say impossible. But I will say improbable. I think it much more likely that the lower portion in the front that the author was trying to create is a result of the side lacing causing the sides of the torso to ruck-up and rest on the hip bones, while the center front of the skirt hangs unsupported from the front of the bodice piece (if you go for separate pieces theory) causing the front of the body to hang lower. Resulting in the appearance of a curved base to the body portion. Bridgette >Could someone give a quick description of this new, speculative theory of >bliaut construction? > >-E House >_______________________________________________ Mari Stewart Webmaster College of Veterinary Medicine Cornell University _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 15:19:49 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34JJnCM025781 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:19:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34JIALV028114 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:18:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34JI4Sn021257; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:18:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.eos.net (alpha.eos.net [205.133.149.17]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34JI0kx021163 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:18:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gailscott@eos.net) Received: from [205.133.149.165] (pm5-165.eos.net [205.133.149.165]) by mail.eos.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j34JHrDl027741 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:17:54 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2022 Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 16:11:29 -0400 From: Gail & Scott Finke To: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200504040553.j345rXHl025317@net.indra.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: Scanned by EOS.Net Mailserver on 205.133.149.17 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] vestment question(s) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Today while watching the Pope's body being moved to St. Peter's, I saw a vestment I can't identify. This isn't remarkable -- I don't know them all -- but I would like to know what it's called. I saw a couple of them, all made out of gorgeous red and gold embroidered fabric. Instead of a chasuble, which I think is always a sideless garment, this looked almost like what I think of as a herald's tabard. It had sleeves, and looked like a very stiff t-tunic. Does anyone know what that is? Also, one of the bishops (the camerlengo, maybe?) was wearing a half-circle bishop's cape, also made out of that amazing embroidered red fabric. It was very stiff and made a sort of self-collar in the back. I've noticed that on bishop's copes before, but I never wondered -- is that the way all ceremonial half-circle cloaks would have looked in the middle ages? Or is it simply a function of the very stiff fabric these particular copes are made of? I didn't tape it, but I will take another look at these during the nightly news. And I'm sure various commemmorative publications will come out that will show many of the ceremonies. Gail Finke _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 15:39:03 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34Jd3mZ025897 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:39:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34JbpLV000546 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:37:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34JbkK0038876; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:37:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cheetah.mail.utk.edu (cheetah.mail.utk.edu [160.36.178.61]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34JbWW9038605 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:37:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@utk.edu) Received: from webmail.utk.edu (camel.usg.utk.edu [160.36.178.34]) by cheetah.mail.utk.edu (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j34JaQSC030040 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:36:26 -0400 X-WebMail-UserID: sfarmer Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:37:30 -0400 From: Susan Farmer To: h-costume@indra.com X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00002252 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bliauts, was Medieval gowns Message-ID: <4275B624@webmail.utk.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Infinite Mobile Delivery (Hydra) SMTP v3.62.01 X-Spam-Status: Message recipients not local. X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.45 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Could someone give a quick description of this new, speculative theory of > bliaut construction? > > -E House > Two pieces -- waist seam and all that. And she doesn't take kindly to differing points of view. Susan ----- Susan Farmer sfarmer@goldsword.com Botany Department, University of Tennessee http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 15:45:20 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34JjJdI025928 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:45:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34JhqLV001658 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:43:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34JhhXO045017; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:43:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav15.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.87]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34JhaQU044818 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:43:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from audreybmorin2@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 12:43:30 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.161.203 by BAY106-DAV15.phx.gbl with DAV; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 19:43:29 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [65.54.161.203] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] X-Sender: audreybmorin2@hotmail.com From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <040A9996-A522-11D9-B9DB-000393DA0BCC@providenceday.org> <5.2.1.1.2.20050404145436.01e51e50@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bliauts, was Medieval gowns Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:43:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Apr 2005 19:43:30.0368 (UTC) FILETIME=[94078400:01C5394E] X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I think it much more likely that the lower portion in the front that the > author was trying to create is a result of the side lacing causing the > sides of the torso to ruck-up and rest on the hip bones, while the center > front of the skirt hangs unsupported from the front of the bodice piece > (if you go for separate pieces theory) causing the front of the body to > hang lower. Resulting in the appearance of a curved base to the body > portion. I've done mine as one piece, I really don't elieve in the separate pieces theory. I did it as a T-tunic and put it on, then my mom pinned me into it on the sides so I could cut curves and then I laced it on. If I were to do it again, I wouldn't lace the sides, I'd sew myself in. But even with the sides cut out, it puckers because of the tension, a little like the images. If I were to sew it closed, it would definitely pucker and ride up on the sides. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 16:09:01 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34K91sc026087 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 16:09:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34K88LV004721 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:08:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34K80DS068288; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:08:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34K7sgb068113 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:07:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DIXrS-0002MG-9Q for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 20:07:51 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:06:37 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bliauts, was Medieval gowns References: <040A9996-A522-11D9-B9DB-000393DA0BCC@providenceday.org> <01cb01c53942$2c17cff0$0400a8c0@compaqub> <5.2.1.1.2.20050404145436.01e51e50@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20050404145436.01e51e50@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.04-U (<1$0N+RHd4zNsQH4tCLkTWOQ0IV>) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I've always felt that even separate pieces is so "out of time" as to be very unlikely. Jean M Stewart wrote > >Hi there... > >I don't usually paddle around in the Bliaut pool... but I follow sewing >technology and construction techniques almost fanatically. What >struck me as incongruous about the construction in the "Creative >Anachronist" was that the author used a complex compound curve to form >the join between the body and the skirt. > >This is bliaut... this is "early medieval" we have centuries to go >before we see our other first curve, the armhole. So the proposal >that the bliaut used a compound curve is - in my opinion - out there. >I won't say impossible. But I will say improbable. > >I think it much more likely that the lower portion in the front that >the author was trying to create is a result of the side lacing causing >the sides of the torso to ruck-up and rest on the hip bones, while the >center front of the skirt hangs unsupported from the front of the >bodice piece (if you go for separate pieces theory) causing the front >of the body to hang lower. Resulting in the appearance of a curved base >to the body portion. > >Bridgette > > >>Could someone give a quick description of this new, speculative theory >>of bliaut construction? >> >>-E House >>_______________________________________________ > >Mari Stewart >Webmaster >College of Veterinary Medicine >Cornell University > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 16:18:43 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34KIgop026132 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 16:18:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34KHULV005702 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:17:31 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34KGAsg074939; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:16:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34KFCFK074172 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:15:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DIXyZ-0003CI-7J for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 20:15:11 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:14:02 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: medieval gown References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.04-U () X-DCC-indra.com-Metrics: net.indra.com 1044; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO If it's an SCA event, and you're changing in the women's bathroom, there will be others doing the same who will be more than happy to help. Jean otsisto wrote >Ummmm...I don't think that the times she dresses in the women's bathroom >that her boyfriend will be able to help and you do not always have someone >there who is able to help. But if lacing in the back is all you can sew then >thats all you can sew. > >Another thing you can do for lacing holes >if you don't want to make button holes is use hooks and eyes. Pairing the >eyes with eyes and hooks with hooks. Bottom half of the opening would have >hooks and the upper half with eyes. Does that make sense? > >De > >-----Original Message----- >Her boyfriend is also in the SCA so she has him to assist her. I >imagine she will just be wearing her normal undergarments. She wants >a placket under the back opening. > >On Apr 4, 2005, at 1:20 AM, otsisto wrote: > > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 16:36:32 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34KaW9p026204 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 16:36:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34KZJLV008204 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:35:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34KZBfn092842; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:35:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from outbound-mail.nyc.untd.com (outbound-mail.nyc.untd.com [64.136.20.164]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j34KYeFF092351 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:34:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from penhalion@juno.com) Received: from outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com (webmail24.nyc.untd.com [10.141.27.164]) by smtpout02.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABBFDKF8AM8BU2A for (sender ); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:34:06 -0700 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: fRRJgEOSsRehnOwCpkfn78wrHhcsUA+vmjB4R5IYeWMcZqKeUEqS8A== Received: (from penhalion@juno.com) by webmail24.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KPR5RCSZ; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 13:33:31 PDT Received: from [24.14.76.2] by webmail24.nyc.untd.com with HTTP: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 20:32:49 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.14.76.2] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "seamstrix@juno.com" X-UOL-SENDER: penhalion@juno.com Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 20:32:49 GMT To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bliauts, was Medieval gowns X-Mailer: Juno Webmail Version 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20050404.133331.10313.213600@webmail24.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 2:1:2526960136 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I make no claim to be an expert on bliauts.....or even exceptionally knowledgable about them. But they have interested me for years just because, in terms of the evolution of dress, they are so weird and such a mystery. Years ago when I was at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign (Go Illini!) I found a very interesting cast of one of the cathedral figures dressed in a bliaut at, what was at the time, the World Heritage Museum. I believe they have since moved to a new building and changed the name. Anyway, the figure is larger than life size and shows the details of the bliaut very clearly- you could get up to about 2 feet away from it. The torso portion was very obviously puckered/honeycombed, not just wrinkled, and the effect could not come from simply gathering it into horizontal pleats across the torso. I think that some form of smocking is the likeliest explanation for the form fitting torso combined with the pleated effect in the skirt. The details on the statue ! matched exactly what you would expect from a simple smocking stitch. Now someone is going to chime in with evidence that they didn't do smocking in period and blow my pet theory out of the water! Karen _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 16:59:03 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34Kx3Ke026278 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 16:59:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34KvqLV010786 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:57:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34KvUUq010803; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:57:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from leopard.mail.utk.edu (leopard.mail.utk.edu [160.36.0.85]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34KvMYS010690 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:57:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@utk.edu) Received: from webmail.utk.edu (camel.usg.utk.edu [160.36.178.34]) by leopard.mail.utk.edu (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j34LCmTp028630 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:12:52 -0400 X-WebMail-UserID: sfarmer Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 16:57:17 -0400 From: Susan Farmer To: h-costume@indra.com X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00002252 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bliauts, was Medieval gowns Message-ID: <42770C6F@webmail.utk.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Infinite Mobile Delivery (Hydra) SMTP v3.62.01 X-Spam-Status: Message recipients not local. X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.45 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I make no claim to be an expert on bliauts.....or even exceptionally knowledga ble about them. But they have interested me for years just because, in terms of the evolution of dress, they are so weird and such a mystery. Years ago when I w as at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign (Go Illini!) I found a very in teresting cast of one of the cathedral figures dressed in a bliaut at, what was at the time, the World Heritage Museum. I believe they have since moved to a new building and changed the name. Anyway, the figure is larger than life size and shows the details of the bliaut very clearly- you could get up to about 2 feet a way from it. The torso portion was very obviously puckered/honeycombed, not just wrinkled, and the effect could not come from simply gathering it into horizonta l pleats across the torso. I think that some form of smocking is the likeliest e xplanation for the form fitting torso combined with the pleated effect in the sk irt. The details on the statue matched exactly what you would expect from a simple smocking stitch. Me too. I suspect that there may be several things hiding under the single term. Anyway, I found the images of these capitals -- they're not the stylaized figures like you have at the Chartres Cathedral -- notice the smocking effect in the upper bodice/torso ... and then I found this one -- notice that the pleats coming out from under the ornamented band at the bottom of the bodice ..... This one almost looks like a separate corsage over a finely pleated gown -- at least to my eyes. Susan/ Jerusha ----- Susan Farmer sfarmer@goldsword.com Botany Department, University of Tennessee http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 17:07:38 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34L7cOr026345 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:07:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34L6dLV011703 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:06:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34L6ZNp019234; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:06:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.38]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34L6WaD019188 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:06:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ms154@cornell.edu) Received: from bridgett.cornell.edu (cpe-24-24-24-60.twcny.res.rr.com [24.24.24.60]) by postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j34L6Seg005277 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:06:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20050404165600.00bad8c8@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ms154@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 17:06:21 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: Mari Stewart Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bliauts, was Medieval gowns In-Reply-To: <20050404.133331.10313.213600@webmail24.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621, Antispam-Engine: 2.0.2.0, Antispam-Data: 2005.4.4.13 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Who Us?? How about if I chime in with evidence of something like it, whitework... but I would beware of the term smocking... from an alb attributed to Bernulf of Utrecht, ca. 1028-1056. Fleury Lembourg, p. 193. Bridgette >I make no claim to be an expert on bliauts.....or even exceptionally >knowledgable about them. But they have interested me for years just >because, in terms of the evolution of dress, they are so weird and such a >mystery. Years ago when I was at the University of Illinois >Urbana-Champaign (Go Illini!) I found a very interesting cast of one of >the cathedral figures dressed in a bliaut at, what was at the time, the >World Heritage Museum. I believe they have since moved to a new building >and changed the name. Anyway, the figure is larger than life size and >shows the details of the bliaut very clearly- you could get up to about 2 >feet away from it. The torso portion was very obviously >puckered/honeycombed, not just wrinkled, and the effect could not come >from simply gathering it into horizontal pleats across the torso. I think >that some form of smocking is the likeliest explanation for the form >fitting torso combined with the pleated effect in the skirt. The details >on the statue ! > matched exactly what you would expect from a simple smocking stitch. > >Now someone is going to chime in with evidence that they didn't do >smocking in period and blow my pet theory out of the water! > > >Karen >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 17:14:31 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34LEVkZ026372 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:14:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34LCFLV012494 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:12:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34LCBK0024260; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:12:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cantvc.canterbury.ac.nz (cantvc.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.2.36]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34LC88p024163 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:12:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ladyadele@paradise.net.nz) Received: from CONVERSION-A1.it.canterbury.ac.nz by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) id <01LMQ9YZS0C0IU378G@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 09:12:03 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Received: from [132.181.5.228] (itascad45a.it.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.5.228]) by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) with ESMTP id <01LMQ9YZBHS8IP2KFN@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 09:12:03 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 09:12:36 +1200 From: Adele de Maisieres Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bliauts, was Medieval gowns In-reply-to: <6.2.1.2.0.20050404091854.03f1c2e0@mail.justinanimator.com> To: Historical Costume Message-id: <4251ADC4.1090708@paradise.net.nz> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) References: <20050404055325.98898.qmail@web41903.mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.1.2.0.20050404091854.03f1c2e0@mail.justinanimator.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Genie Barrett wrote: > Lady Satine stepped close to the microphone and whispered: > >> >I have a question for Adele about Bliaults.... Would you now of any >> websites taht have information about them and possible >> construction???? or good reference books I may be able to find...... >> Thanks >> > >> > >> Hi Satine-- >> >> Sadly, no-- just the websites I suggested in my email. This is well >> outside my area. > > > There is a new speculative pamphlet that the SCA put out recently > about the bliaut. If you go to > http://www.sca.org/members/marketplace.html and order Compleat > Anacronist number 124 - summer 2004 (it's so new it isn't on their > list, but you can probably get it hard copy) "Elles'Habille en > Bliaut: Haute Coutre of the 12th Century" by Grace Payne > > I don't agree with the construction speculation she uses, I really > like the number of actual statues that she sites. Great bibliography > as well. The biggest problem with the Bliaut is that there is so > little evidence of it, and it's almost all French, or so it seems. > There's also "The Bliaut: A Reconstruction Based on Primary Source Material" by Rowena le Sarjent in Tournaments Illuminated #109 (now Roheisa le Sarjent) And this article by the same author: http://www.sca.org.nz/collegium/costume/wardrobe_12C_frankish_noblewoman.php I disagree strongly with some of Roheisa's conclusions, but her work is almost certainly worth a read. -- Adele de Maisieres ----------------------------- Quot homines, tot sententiae. ----------------------------- _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 17:16:03 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34LG2pD026381 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:16:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34LExLV012884 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:14:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34LEuCJ026771; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:14:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sccrmhc14.comcast.net (sccrmhc14.comcast.net [204.127.202.59]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34LEnCv026577 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:14:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from penny@costumegallery.com) Received: from yourw04gtxld67 (pcp0010006139pcs.centrl01.va.comcast.net[69.241.147.155]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc14) with SMTP id <2005040421144201400do8e1e>; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:14:42 +0000 Message-ID: <007201c5395b$52488a20$0300a8c0@yourw04gtxld67> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: "Historical Costume" References: Subject: Re: [h-cost] vestment question(s) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:14:43 -0400 Organization: The Costume Gallery MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Gail, I used assist our priest with neighborhood masses. He always explained to the parishioners the names and brief history of each part the vestments at the beginning of the each mass. One of the best places I have found with definitions of the vestments can be found at the Catholic Encyclopedia, http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15388a.htm . If you see the vestment on the CE website, let me know. I believe I noticed in today's procession there were a few priests of other faiths. That may be what you saw. I did tape the procession. I will be watching it again tomorrow with my husband. I will try to look and see the vestments that you mentioned. Penny Ladnier, owner The Costume Gallery, www.costumegallery.com Costume Research Library, www.costumelibrary.com Costume Classroom, www.costumeclassroom.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 17:22:56 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34LMtT6026419 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:22:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34LLFLV013786 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:21:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34LL5u3032491; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:21:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34LL2mj032337 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:21:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from penny@costumegallery.com) Received: from yourw04gtxld67 (pcp0010006139pcs.centrl01.va.comcast.net[69.241.147.155]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <2005040421205301200phrfae>; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:20:53 +0000 Message-ID: <007601c5395c$2fbe1cd0$0300a8c0@yourw04gtxld67> From: "Penny Ladnier" To: "Historical Costume" References: <007201c5395b$52488a20$0300a8c0@yourw04gtxld67> Subject: Re: [h-cost] vestment question(s) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:20:54 -0400 Organization: The Costume Gallery MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Gail, I forgot to mention, that the Catholic Encyclopedia website is really busy right now. You may need to wait a few seconds for the site to load. Also another page of interest is the Liturgical Colours. The colors are very important in the Catholic church and have a lot of symbolism behind them. Here is a webpage about them: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04134a.htm . Penny Ladnier, owner The Costume Gallery, www.costumegallery.com Costume Research Library, www.costumelibrary.com Costume Classroom, www.costumeclassroom.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 18:07:13 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34M7CA9026597 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:07:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34M6MLV018477 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 16:06:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34M6HWK072806; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 16:06:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo2.socket.net (mo2.socket.net [216.106.88.11]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34M6DSu072746 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 16:06:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo2.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5899351EA for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:06:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t4p348.socket.net [64.85.223.94]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 10AB1D404 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:06:11 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: medieval gown Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:06:09 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO If you are lacing it. You run the lace through the eyes like you would a button hole and then latch it on to the hooks as you go up. The Hooks and eyes would be on the inside of the garment. Do not get the tiny h&es, get the ones that your cord will go though. Does that help? De -----Original Message----- Sorry, but I'm not understanding you. How can you just put hooks or eyes on both sides of the garment? On Apr 4, 2005, at 8:41 AM, otsisto wrote: _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 18:15:11 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34MFAuB026628 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:15:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34MD9LV019210 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 16:13:09 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34MCjnc078459; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 16:12:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo1.socket.net (mo1a.socket.net [216.106.88.129]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34MCTcT078264 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 16:12:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo1.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF7F83916D for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:12:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t4p348.socket.net [64.85.223.94]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 4F952D453 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:12:27 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: medieval gown Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:12:28 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have learned through experience that you may not always have help. And having to go out and find someone to lace up your back can be a bit drafty. Personally, if the garment is to be my "everyday" wear or my only garb, then I want it to be something that I can put on with ease. For others, (I have noticed) if it is difficult to put on, it tends to discourage the wearer and can, at times put a bit of a damper on the event. De -----Original Message----- If it's an SCA event, and you're changing in the women's bathroom, there will be others doing the same who will be more than happy to help. Jean _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 19:07:55 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34N7s18026877 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 19:07:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34N6fLV026875 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:06:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34N6Uis026703; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:06:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51304.mail.yahoo.com (web51304.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.170]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j34N6Owh026567 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:06:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from elvestoorder@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 1721 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Apr 2005 23:06:17 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=iSAVbDFZ4hXDP0CY8FQgYWCLgWol7bCht0+mPDjSJiQtrykDIir0pZV2SLJaIgXfam7QxEMYimgwPT9ibtQgOOurXEblcpAnuFg1MkkyGF613qwQbnRoGKQU8dbaAG6PjhzxjM+PAtcRo5wlfyCMAoQLX4lQCsoI2vHHYf6W3BQ= ; Message-ID: <20050404230617.1719.qmail@web51304.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.183.30.107] by web51304.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 16:06:17 PDT Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 16:06:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Ann Catelli Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bliauts, was Medieval gowns To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO --- "seamstrix@juno.com" wrote: > > bliauts. > I found a very interesting cast of one of the > cathedral figures dressed in a bliaut at, what was > at the time, the World Heritage Museum. > the figure is larger than life > size and shows the details of the bliaut very > clearly- you could get up to about 2 feet away from > it. The torso portion was very obviously > puckered/honeycombed, not just wrinkled, and the > effect could not come from simply gathering it into > horizontal pleats across the torso. I think that > some form of smocking is the likeliest explanation > for the form fitting torso combined with the pleated > effect in the skirt. The details on the statue ! > matched exactly what you would expect from a simple > smocking stitch. > > Karen Except that every honey-comb torso I've ever seen in the bliaut era is going the 'wrong' way to provide useful stretch for fitting a garment. I.e., the statues show horizontal cells, so the stretch is vertical, if it is smocked, not vertically, so any stretch goes around the figure where it's actually needed. And if the cast is of one of the figures from the royal portal at Chartres, allow me to point out the suspiciously regular wrinkling around the ankles of several shepards from the same cathedral. I'm betting it's artistic liscense, that makes untidy wrinkles prettier. A linen tunic of mine, with slightly too-long sleeves, tends towards the horizontal cell wrinkling at the wrists (parallel to the wrist hem, that is) from my movements while wearing it. Certainly not proof, but suggestive. I tend towards the lace or otherwise squish up the side seams longish T-tunic side of the argument, myself. Ann in CT __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 19:21:49 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34NLmWS026899 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 19:21:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34NKnLV028371 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:20:49 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34NKipJ038313; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:20:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web42101.mail.yahoo.com (web42101.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.194]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j34NKYZK038128 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:20:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from faerieglenstudios@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 88126 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Apr 2005 23:20:29 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=mxS8XKT7bVl45lV4kCAGa/u4571HOCh+wX2Hal7QbY2bNazuyjcLna1G20YYqGjEbMszVT8SWjjekA+HVQG7EARLKOYbwOGiB/6n+4k2q42oIYNuWwi1Xmh+TBv+iYVoismWGM5XUOlsBhMURxrL6cWsPBLCMcfrbzAFJGlmt4Q= ; Message-ID: <20050404232029.88124.qmail@web42101.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [204.113.91.64] by web42101.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 16:20:28 PDT Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 16:20:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Jodi Nelson Subject: [h-cost]Costume Con To: h-costume@net.indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Thanks everyone for welcoming me. Kate mentioned Costume Con. What is it and where do I find out about it ? --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 19:59:08 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j34Nx8Xt027003 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 19:59:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j34Nw7LV002093 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:58:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34Nvu32068885; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:57:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.floodcity.net (mail.floodcity.net [198.93.208.40]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34NvqTn068827 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:57:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from basyefelton@floodcity.net) Received: from dialup-0517.floodcity.net ([198.93.213.9]:3878 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by mail.floodcity.net with esmtp id 1DIbS5-0008BI-Um for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 19:57:55 -0400 Message-ID: <4251D47D.6020904@floodcity.net> Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 19:57:49 -0400 From: Kitty Felton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] smooshed waist X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > >( She has this incredible ability to smoosh her waist >into this circulation cutting off curcumference,which >frankly looks probably worse then Ms.DD because she >has really high hips , she ends up looking like >a"spade" symbol turned upside down) But she thinks she >look fine so out came the machine,-5 alterations >later.....she's happily smooshed into her 24" waist >size,40" hips. > So remember, smile & nod,eventually she'll see the >light.... > > >>> Melody >> When i was young and thin I excercized my fanny off, but the only place I lost inches was my waist. so from a 36/26/36 I went down to a 36/24/36. That just looked silly and I decide that I didn't ever need to do waiste excercizes again in my life. God gave me the right proportions for my body and any excercise is for stamina and health, not spot loss. LOL not to say I don't need major excercize, but not to make my waist thinner. Kitty _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 20:30:35 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j350UZOS027126 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 20:30:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j350TLLV004393 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:29:21 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j350T7sW092785; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:29:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j350T470092725 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:29:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m110.in-tch.com [216.166.191.110]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j350P2o00561 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:25:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <4251DD15.6070601@in-tch.com> Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 18:34:29 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bliauts, was Medieval gowns References: <20050404.133331.10313.213600@webmail24.nyc.untd.com> In-Reply-To: <20050404.133331.10313.213600@webmail24.nyc.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Types of smocking were definitely known and used pre-17th century (although more to control fullness, say in a neckline than all across a torso), but I'm of the (firm) opinion that there are other, possible explanations for the wrinkled bodice thing. I also don't know of anything resembling smocking being known to have coexisted with the bliaut, although there are some anomalies here and there in medieval textiles that show something that sure looks like a type of smocking (like, say, under the arm to control fullness...I can look up the specific source if anyone would like me to). For one, who's to say that it's meant to be taken literally? IIRC, that sort of art/sculpture, *at that time* was highly stylized. As a sculptor or designer of those columns for those cathedrals, you might really want to emphasize and regularize the contrasting horizontal and vertical lines. Other sources depicting similar garments (illos. in manuscripts, etc.) often do show some pulling across the torso, but I haven't seen any that look as "honeycombed" as those statues..... My primary objection to the particular technique espoused in the afore-mentioned _CA_ is not that it doesn't work--it does, indeed, create a similar look. I just don't find it logical in a 12th century context. No other garments that I know at that time had anything *like* a separately cut skirt sewn to a torso, let alone one also pleated or gathered. I'm guessing the separate skirt argument has hung around so long because modern sewers/costumers are familiar with the technique, so they're comfortable interpreting that old, odd style using techniques (separate skirts, complex curved patterns, etc.) that are actually ahistorical for the garments. --sue (long-time SCA member, who's had a 2-decades-long friendly running argument with a friend over just this topic! ;o) seamstrix@juno.com wrote: > I make no claim to be an expert on bliauts.....or even exceptionally > knowledgable about them. But they have interested me for years just > because, in terms of the evolution of dress, they are so weird and > such a mystery. Years ago when I was at the University of Illinois > Urbana-Champaign (Go Illini!) I found a very interesting cast of one > of the cathedral figures dressed in a bliaut at, what was at the > time, the World Heritage Museum. I believe they have since moved to a > new building and changed the name. Anyway, the figure is larger than > life size and shows the details of the bliaut very clearly- you could > get up to about 2 feet away from it. The torso portion was very > obviously puckered/honeycombed, not just wrinkled, and the effect > could not come from simply gathering it into horizontal pleats across > the torso. I think that some form of smocking is the likeliest > explanation for the form fitting torso combined with the pleated > effect in the skirt. The details on the statue ! matched exactly what > you would expect from a simple smocking stitch. > > Now someone is going to chime in with evidence that they didn't do > smocking in period and blow my pet theory out of the water! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 21:03:57 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j3513uYP027240 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:03:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3512eLV006623 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 19:02:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j3512ZOl018534; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 19:02:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from outbound-mail.nyc.untd.com (outbound-mail.nyc.untd.com [64.136.20.164]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j3512XR7018373 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 19:02:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from penhalion@juno.com) Received: from outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com (webmail30.nyc.untd.com [10.141.27.170]) by smtpout04.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABBFD25AA5RNY72 for (sender ); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:01:20 -0700 (PST) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: fRRJgEOSsRehnOwCpkfn78wrHhcsUA+vULDOOq5EG8eL/ZhQzvsVLQ== Received: (from penhalion@juno.com) by webmail30.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KPSL2S7P; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 18:00:49 PDT Received: from [24.14.76.2] by webmail30.nyc.untd.com with HTTP: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:55:03 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.14.76.2] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "seamstrix@juno.com" X-UOL-SENDER: penhalion@juno.com Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:55:03 GMT To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bliauts, was Medieval gowns X-Mailer: Juno Webmail Version 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20050404.180049.28246.218704@webmail30.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 3:5:2340859820 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Anne Catelli Wrote: Except that every honey-comb torso I've ever seen in the bliaut era is going the 'wrong' way to provide useful stretch for fitting a garment. I.e., the statues show horizontal cells, so the stretch is vertical, if it is smocked, not vertically, so any stretch goes around the figure where it's actually needed. And that is a very valid point. When not under tension, smocking cells tend to have more length than width. However, I postulate that the depiction in question shows the smocking under noticable tension due to lacing at the side to bring the garment tightly against the body. This would tend to distort the smocking cells and produce the shape of cells depicted on the statue. I gotta go back to the museum and try to find that statue. I now have a spiffy little digital camera and I will take pictures of the parts in question so that I don't have to try to describe something from a 15 year old memory. Karen _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 21:37:46 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j351beRS027393 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:37:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j351aWLV009077 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 19:36:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j351aPN9043743; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 19:36:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web88212.mail.re2.yahoo.com (web88212.mail.re2.yahoo.com [206.190.37.235]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j351aHCj043593 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 19:36:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nicolaa@rogers.com) Message-ID: <20050405013611.91672.qmail@web88212.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.225.130.78] by web88212.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 21:36:11 EDT Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:36:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Carroll-Clark Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bliauts, was Medieval gowns To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Greetings-- > This one almost looks like a separate corsage over a > finely pleated gown -- at > least to my eyes. The problem with the "corsage" theory is that I suspect it came from people doing exactly what we're doing--looking at statuary and making guesses about what we're seeing. Which is fine--but I've never found evidence of a separate, corset-like garment from any period preceeding the bliaut or immediately after the bliaut--and 12th century tailors, being generally conservative, would not have (in my opinion) learned a new technique and simply discarded it after a few years. Nor is there any description of a corset-like garment in contemporary literature--while we *do* have descriptions of side laced garments. So for me, it's pretty clear that the bliaut was probably side-laced. How it was actually cut, and how much from the statuary is artistic license, and how much the fabrics affected things remain for me the fascinating mysteries. Susan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 23:09:50 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j3539oD9027828 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:09:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3538OLV015467 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:08:24 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35387fa012488; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:08:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.floodcity.net (mail.floodcity.net [198.93.208.40]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35385L9012393 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:08:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from basyefelton@floodcity.net) Received: from dialup-0408.floodcity.net ([198.93.212.154]:4069 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by mail.floodcity.net with esmtp id 1DIeQ4-0007Ii-Aj for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 23:08:01 -0400 Message-ID: <4252010E.4080802@floodcity.net> Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 23:07:58 -0400 From: Kitty Felton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: medieval gown References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO like old timey shoes and some work boots today, hooks to catch the lace and then the loops you would normally hook the hooks through used together you thread the laces through instead, like you would eyelets. maybe you have a hunter or other in your family that you could view the boots? hiking boots have them too. not all boots but lots do. Kitty Sylvia Rognstad wrote: > Sorry, but I'm not understanding you. How can you just put hooks or > eyes on both sides of the garment? > On Apr 4, 2005, at 8:41 AM, otsisto wrote: > >> Ummmm...I don't think that the times she dresses in the women's bathroom >> that her boyfriend will be able to help and you do not always have >> someone >> there who is able to help. But if lacing in the back is all you can >> sew then >> thats all you can sew. >> >> Another thing you can do for lacing holes >> if you don't want to make button holes is use hooks and eyes. Pairing >> the >> eyes with eyes and hooks with hooks. Bottom half of the opening would >> have >> hooks and the upper half with eyes. Does that make sense? >> >> De > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 23:22:03 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j353M2Vb027868 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:22:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j353KvLV016349 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:20:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j353KpS4022362; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:20:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pop-a065c10.pas.sa.earthlink.net (pop-a065c10.pas.sa.earthlink.net [207.217.121.184]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j353Kna2022336 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:20:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wickedfrau@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=[192.168.1.101]) by pop-a065c10.pas.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DIecT-0001ku-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 20:20:49 -0700 Message-ID: <42520419.4030201@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 20:20:57 -0700 From: Wicked Frau User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume References: <20050404071926.63748.qmail@web41809.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050404071926.63748.qmail@web41809.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] was: No taste in corsets or fashions Who is Ms D.D.? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Who is Ms D.D.? Melody Watts wrote: >( She has this incredible ability to smoosh her waist >into this circulation cutting off curcumference,which >frankly looks probably worse then Ms.DD because she >has really high hips , she ends up looking like >a"spade" symbol turned upside down) > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Mon Apr 4 23:22:49 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j353MnXQ027873 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:22:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j353LcLV016379 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:21:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j353Lcj6022907; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:21:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j353LYcY022753 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:21:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j354aZXu024895 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:36:36 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:21:24 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.7 References: <200504041801.j34I0Jm3047238@net.indra.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200504042321.24203.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Monday 04 April 2005 2:45 pm, fastusminimus wrote: > At 12:01 PM -0600 4/4/05, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote: > >Well Drat! Just got word from Barnes & Noble that this title would not > >be available on the published date, something about 'delayed at the > >publisher', and they would email be again if it was going to be over 30 > >days. Anyone else received this notice? Yes, I did, too. > -- Cathy Raymond "Some never live, but the crazy never die."--Hunter S. Thompson _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 00:25:46 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j354PkCl028089 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:25:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j354JmLV020806 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:19:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j354JSCP063728; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:19:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j354JPPk063677 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:19:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA28099 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:34:00 -0500 Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:33:59 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <200504042321.24203.cathy@thyrsus.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] MC&T journal? was: untitled post X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Mon, 4 Apr 2005, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > On Monday 04 April 2005 2:45 pm, fastusminimus wrote: > > At 12:01 PM -0600 4/4/05, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote: > > >Well Drat! Just got word from Barnes & Noble that this title would not > > >be available on the published date, something about 'delayed at the > > >publisher', and they would email be again if it was going to be over 30 > > >days. Anyone else received this notice? > > Yes, I did, too. I missed that first post, but I'm seeing answers to it now. Was this about the Medieval Clothing & Textiles journal? I know that Boydell (in England) claims to be shipping now, but I don't know how long it takes for books to reach secondary distributors outside of England. For those who haven't bought yet, today I received a batch of flyers that I may distribute to my colleagues -- and they include a discount code that brings the price down to $37.50. That's not as good as the Barnes & Noble price, last I looked. But if you want that discount, please e-mail me directly. I consider the members of this list my colleagues, and am happy to offer you the deal. However, please do *not* forward the above paragraph elsewhere, as I cannot claim that the members of several dozen costume lists are my colleagues ;-) Something else I should mention: I've tried to be very explicit in my postings on this list about the nature of MC&T -- it's an academic journal (in the form of an annual hardbound volume), and as such it contains a group of highly in-depth papers on a handful of disconnected topics. It should be very useful to people who are doing serious research in those particular topics, but I don't want anyone to think that this is a general reference volume for the average costumer. I truly expected most people to plan on borrowing copies through libraries, and I've been stunned and impressed by the number of people who are buying their own copies -- I hope on the basis of having read the volume contents (posted in my messages, and also at http://www.boydell.co.uk/43831236.HTM). However, based on some some messages that I've been getting lately, I'm worrying that the name of the journal is now being tossed around various lists as a "must-have new reference book" for re-enactors. Anyone buying on the basis of title alone, thinking that this is a general book about medieval clothing and textiles, will be very disappointed, and I really don't want that to happen! So, if any of you are on any such lists and hear any such talk, please set people straight: This is an academic journal, and a much-needed one, in an active research field that is producing much new work. But it is a collection of scholarly essays on disparate specialized topics, not a general reference. BTW, I am now in the throes of editing Vol. 2. The lineup so far includes papers on Renaissance "flea furs"; royal costume in Irish literature and archaeology of the Viking period; clothmaking as a literary device in French 12th-c. romance; cloth trade in Paris in the 13th and 14th centuries; attitudes about clothing in late medieval English literature and sumptuary law; 15th-century textile cleaning techniques; and the English Renaissance embroidered jacket. --Robin =============================================================== Robin Netherton // robin@nightowl.net Editor, Medieval Clothing & Textiles "No student knows his subject. The most he knows is where and how to find out the things he does not know." -- Woodrow Wilson _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 00:49:51 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j354npeo028181 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:49:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j354YFLV021796 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:34:16 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j354Y69g072997; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:34:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j354Y3wb072874 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:34:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j355n4gT025909 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 01:49:05 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] MC&T journal? was: untitled post Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:33:52 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.7 References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200504050033.52786.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Tuesday 05 April 2005 12:33 am, Robin Netherton wrote: > On Mon, 4 Apr 2005, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > > On Monday 04 April 2005 2:45 pm, fastusminimus wrote: > > > At 12:01 PM -0600 4/4/05, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote: > > > >Well Drat! Just got word from Barnes & Noble that this title would > > > > not be available on the published date, something about 'delayed at > > > > the publisher', and they would email be again if it was going to be > > > > over 30 days. Anyone else received this notice? > > > > Yes, I did, too. > > I missed that first post, but I'm seeing answers to it now. Was this about > the Medieval Clothing & Textiles journal? That was what I was talking about, at least. -- Cathy Raymond "Some never live, but the crazy never die."--Hunter S. Thompson _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 01:43:18 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j355hIEh028390 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 01:43:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j355bmLV025255 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:37:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j355bd6e013986; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:37:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mailout04.sul.t-online.com (mailout04.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.18]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j355bZpm013940 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:37:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dgandh@t-online.de) Received: from fwd30.aul.t-online.de by mailout04.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1DIgkp-000420-01; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 07:37:35 +0200 Received: from gandolf (GMJT7iZVYelJ+xm+F-X4vnvnKUa+jQsG3DcPNH4H4ki+0LvEUcQQZb@[62.158.32.21]) by fwd30.sul.t-online.de with esmtp id 1DIgko-04LTvc0; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:37:34 +0200 From: "dgandh" To: Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:37:33 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcU5oZCvoOWedFipQJavv4Rdn6+CdA== Message-ID: <1DIgko-04LTvc0@fwd30.sul.t-online.de> X-ID: GMJT7iZVYelJ+xm+F-X4vnvnKUa+jQsG3DcPNH4H4ki+0LvEUcQQZb X-TOI-MSGID: d91c20c8-ca5a-4905-91c9-37132af1bc69 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Threee copies of every message X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Maybe I have something set wrong but I am getting 3 copies of every messages from this list. which is playing havoc with my in box. Am I doing something wrong? Greg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 01:48:31 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j355mV5h028401 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 01:48:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j355jgLV025536 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:45:43 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j355jdVh019066; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:45:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo1.socket.net (mo1a.socket.net [216.106.88.129]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j355jZf1019019 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:45:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf1.socket.net (mf1.socket.net [216.106.88.20]) by mo1.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB1F6390FC for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:45:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t1p151.socket.net [64.85.214.153]) by mf1.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id EE0D0C3F8 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:45:33 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] was: No taste in corsets or fashions Who is Ms D.D.? Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:45:36 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <42520419.4030201@earthlink.net> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I think she means Ms DD = Ms Double D as in bra size. De Who is Ms D.D.? Melody Watts wrote: >( She has this incredible ability to smoosh her waist >into this circulation cutting off curcumference,which >frankly looks probably worse then Ms.DD because she >has really high hips , she ends up looking like >a"spade" symbol turned upside down) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 02:01:26 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j3561P4M028599 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 02:01:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j355t9LV025878 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:55:11 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j355t2CM025035; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:55:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav12.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.84]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j355sw71024933 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:54:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bear_janet@msn.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:54:53 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.161.200 by BAY106-DAV12.phx.gbl with DAV; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 05:54:52 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [65.54.161.200] X-Originating-Email: [bear_janet@msn.com] X-Sender: bear_janet@msn.com From: "JAMES OGILVIE" To: "Historical Costume" References: <42770C6F@webmail.utk.edu> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bliauts, was Medieval gowns Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 01:54:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 8.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V8.50.0017.1202 Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 01:54:57 -0400 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Apr 2005 05:54:53.0442 (UTC) FILETIME=[FCD86620:01C539A3] X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by sca.uwaterloo.ca id j3561P4M028599 Status: RO and then I found this one -- notice that the pleats coming out from under the ornamented band at the bottom of the bodice ..... This one almost looks like a separate corsage over a finely pleated gown -- at least to my eyes. Susan/ Jerusha Could you please re-post this link or give me another way to get there? I would really like to see this and I keep getting error messages. Janet _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 02:03:43 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j3563gRo029361 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 02:03:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j355taLV025942 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:55:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j355tajp025393; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:55:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web41905.mail.yahoo.com (web41905.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.156]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j355tXBw025308 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:55:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from seamuslady@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 30790 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Apr 2005 05:55:28 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=zBL5TYKvPC8Kr6+IHMTp1LhCViR34XEkCE41jys1RXPPRVig29ygV7T/SUFoh1R+gkgYLaH2/AYnhkcia1AE7BLx6kSprz/kq62PzOb6IO//hAg0OJumuA72of8JFblgEvnTpGo4ITWnIuGosJeMNgz1GXnAC5osClHBoOJ9png= ; Message-ID: <20050405055528.30788.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.8.166.132] by web41905.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 22:55:28 PDT Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:55:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Lady Satine Subject: Re: [h-cost] was: No taste in corsets or fashions Who is Ms D.D.? To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Someone I know who is being sill with her re-creations...... I needed advice on how to deal with a situation and the wonderful people here helped me out Imensely!!! I want to than you all for the Guidance and pep talk! It has helped Satine Wicked Frau wrote: Who is Ms D.D.? Melody Watts wrote: >( She has this incredible ability to smoosh her waist >into this circulation cutting off curcumference,which >frankly looks probably worse then Ms.DD because she >has really high hips , she ends up looking like >a"spade" symbol turned upside down) > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 07:51:41 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j35Bpeiq030326 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:51:41 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35BoSLV008100 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 05:50:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35BoB6O057043; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 05:50:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ispmxmta06-srv.alltel.net (ispmxmta06-srv.alltel.net [166.102.165.167]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35Bo7G4056925 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 05:50:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from bmatney@alltel.net) Received: from emachine_T4155.alltel.net ([162.40.179.202]) by ispmxmta06-srv.alltel.net with ESMTP id <20050405114953.HTKJ11805.ispmxmta06-srv.alltel.net@emachine_T4155.alltel.net> for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 06:49:53 -0500 Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.0.20050405063958.02b82c30@mail.alltel.net> X-Sender: bmatney@mail.alltel.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 06:49:31 -0500 To: From: Beth and Bob Matney Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Bliauts X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Many years ago (when I was much thinner), I made a Bliaut of each of the theories. I tend against the smocking, and separate piece theories myself. I did find a few statues from other churches of the period with this style but not many. Something that I did find quite helpful (and everyone seems to ignore) were metalwork objects where one could clearly see the artistic stylized folds. There is an arm reliquery (sp?) in the Walters Art Gallery in Baltimore that is a good example. Beth Matney _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 08:04:34 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j35C4Yr4030910 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:04:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35C3eLV011690 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 06:03:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35C3bCF067478; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 06:03:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35C3W43067376 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 06:03:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j35BvKmT005441 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:57:20 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 07:57:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42527E92.7080503@thibault.org> Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 08:03:30 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bliauts References: <6.0.0.22.0.20050405063958.02b82c30@mail.alltel.net> In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.0.20050405063958.02b82c30@mail.alltel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Beth and Bob Matney wrote: > Something that I did find quite helpful (and > everyone seems to ignore) were metalwork objects where one could clearly > see the artistic stylized folds. There seems to be a dearth of "let's search text sources for descriptions" too. Probably because it's difficult, but it might shed some light on the question. Possibly there are professional costume historians doing that. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent Binary-numbered clock & Geek Mandalas! http://www.cafeshops.com/virtueventures _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 08:52:37 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j35Cqb88031712 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:52:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35CpHLV022482 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 06:51:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35CpBpp000947; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 06:51:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from providenceday.org (treebeard.providenceday.org [66.193.73.82]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35Cp88n000881 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 06:51:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from grace.morris@providenceday.org) Received: from [172.20.1.3] (HELO providenceday.org) by providenceday.org (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.6) with ESMTP id 2924393 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 08:51:41 -0400 Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:51:25 -0400 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bliauts Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v553) From: Grace Morris To: Historical Costume Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <42527E92.7080503@thibault.org> Message-Id: <6B797BB6-A5D1-11D9-89AB-000393DA0BCC@providenceday.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.553) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There are, indeed, a large number of French texts describing this type of garment.....discussed at length on the 12thcentury list... Jessamyn On Tuesday, April 5, 2005, at 08:03 AM, Cynthia Virtue wrote: > Beth and Bob Matney wrote: > >> Something that I did find quite helpful (and everyone seems to >> ignore) were metalwork objects where one could clearly see the >> artistic stylized folds. > > There seems to be a dearth of "let's search text sources for > descriptions" too. Probably because it's difficult, but it might shed > some light on the question. Possibly there are professional costume > historians doing that. > > -- > Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent > > Binary-numbered clock & Geek Mandalas! > http://www.cafeshops.com/virtueventures > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 09:30:38 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j35DUbR6002900 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:30:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35DTbLV025153 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:29:38 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35DTXvO028858; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:29:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35DTUCZ028816 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:29:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m180.in-tch.com [216.166.191.180]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j35DPSo11425 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:25:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <425293FF.2070803@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 07:34:55 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] was: No taste in corsets or fashions Who is Ms D.D.? References: <20050404071926.63748.qmail@web41809.mail.yahoo.com> <42520419.4030201@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <42520419.4030201@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO The double-D client referred to in an earlier post.... --sue Wicked Frau wrote: > Who is Ms D.D.? > > Melody Watts wrote: > >> ( She has this incredible ability to smoosh her waist >> into this circulation cutting off curcumference,which >> frankly looks probably worse then Ms.DD because she >> has really high hips , she ends up looking like >> a"spade" symbol turned upside down) >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 09:31:57 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j35DVugR002913 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:31:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35DUvLV025297 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:30:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35DUv0v030070; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:30:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35DUsPX030036 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:30:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m180.in-tch.com [216.166.191.180]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j35DQro11754 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:26:53 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <42529455.1050601@in-tch.com> Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 07:36:21 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: References: <200504041801.j34I0Jm3047238@net.indra.com> <200504042321.24203.cathy@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: <200504042321.24203.cathy@thyrsus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I didn't get one, but then again, I just ordered this weekend. Delivery expected within two weeks.... --sue Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > On Monday 04 April 2005 2:45 pm, fastusminimus wrote: > >>At 12:01 PM -0600 4/4/05, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote: >> >>>Well Drat! Just got word from Barnes & Noble that this title would not >>>be available on the published date, something about 'delayed at the >>>publisher', and they would email be again if it was going to be over 30 >>>days. Anyone else received this notice? > > > Yes, I did, too. > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 09:53:05 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j35Dr5ng003163 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:53:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35DpiLV027310 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:51:44 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35DpWYG045437; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:51:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from panther.mail.utk.edu (panther.mail.utk.edu [160.36.178.33]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35DpSTX045367 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:51:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@utk.edu) Received: from webmail.utk.edu (camel.usg.utk.edu [160.36.178.34]) by panther.mail.utk.edu (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j35DoTHU030966 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:50:29 -0400 X-WebMail-UserID: sfarmer Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:51:27 -0400 From: Susan Farmer To: h-costume@indra.com X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00002252 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bliauts, was Medieval gowns Message-ID: <427EFC8F@webmail.utk.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Infinite Mobile Delivery (Hydra) SMTP v3.62.01 X-Spam-Status: Message recipients not local. X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.45 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > This one almost looks like a separate corsage over a > > finely pleated gown -- at > > least to my eyes. > > The problem with the "corsage" theory is that I > suspect it came from people doing exactly what we're > doing--looking at statuary and making guesses about > what we're seeing. Which is fine--but I've never > found evidence of a separate, corset-like garment from > any period preceeding the bliaut or immediately after > the bliaut--and 12th century tailors, being generally > conservative, would not have (in my opinion) learned a > new technique and simply discarded it after a few > years. Nor is there any description of a corset-like > garment in contemporary literature--while we *do* have > descriptions of side laced garments. So for me, it's > pretty clear that the bliaut was probably side-laced. > How it was actually cut, and how much from the > statuary is artistic license, and how much the fabrics > affected things remain for me the fascinating > mysteries. I know that Goddard discusses "corsage;" but at the moment, I don't remember if it's in terms of a separate garment or not. Devil's Advocate mode ... I'm sure that most of the "separate garment" idea came from the early illuminations/tapestries with the wrapped mantle like this. where it is very obviously wrapping of some sort around the torso. but then there are images like these ... (and you've probably seen then all before, but ...) and last but not least ..... I have no clue what I'm seeing (but, please don't try and tell me that the fact that the pleats are still so nice and regular at the bottom of the decorative band on a statue means that they had to be pleated onto the bodice .....) I'm only just now learning to "read" early art. Jerusha (who always welcomes more pairs of eyes ....) ----- Susan Farmer sfarmer@goldsword.com Botany Department, University of Tennessee http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 10:18:54 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j35EIr3C003344 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:18:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35EGdLV029360 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:16:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35EGToI065278; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:16:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pop-a065c10.pas.sa.earthlink.net (pop-a065c10.pas.sa.earthlink.net [207.217.121.184]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35EGQnm065230 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 08:16:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wickedfrau@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=[192.168.1.101]) by pop-a065c10.pas.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DIoqv-0005y4-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 07:16:25 -0700 Message-ID: <42529DC3.8000901@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 07:16:35 -0700 From: Wicked Frau User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] was: No taste in corsets or fashions Who is Ms D.D.? References: <20050404071926.63748.qmail@web41809.mail.yahoo.com> <42520419.4030201@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <42520419.4030201@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Oh, I think it should be me! DOI DOI ??? (Slap on forhead with heel of hand!) :) Thanks! Wicked Frau wrote: > Who is Ms D.D.? > > Melody Watts wrote: > >> ( She has this incredible ability to smoosh her waist >> into this circulation cutting off curcumference,which >> frankly looks probably worse then Ms.DD because she >> has really high hips , she ends up looking like >> a"spade" symbol turned upside down) >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 11:43:55 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j35FhsK7003824 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:43:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35Fg0LV008611 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:42:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35Ffx2P042251; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:41:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.38]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35FftBF042176 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:41:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ms154@cornell.edu) Received: from Bellview.cornell.edu ([128.253.111.234]) by postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j35Ffoci005181 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:41:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20050405104929.01984e90@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ms154@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 11:41:48 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: M Stewart In-Reply-To: <427EFC8F@webmail.utk.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Corsettum, was Bliauts X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Jerusha brings up an interesting point. Remember the discussions in "Dress in the Age of the Black Prince". All those lovely references to "corsette" "corselette" and "corsettum" in the inventories of both the french and english kings. AND those references are early in the roles, before the entries that involve buttons and more fitted garments. So -old idea recycled here- perhaps those garments are a body related piece, coming from the Latin, for body. So perhaps that is a distant remnant of a different clothing item that we see here in a stylized form. Bridgette >Devil's Advocate mode ... > >I'm sure that most of the "separate garment" idea came from the early >illuminations/tapestries with the wrapped mantle like this. > >pg> > >where it is very obviously wrapping of some sort around the torso. >but then there are images like these ... (and you've probably seen >then all before, but ...) > >etail.jpg> > > > >and last but not least ..... > >g> > > > >I have no clue what I'm seeing (but, please don't try and tell me that >the fact that the pleats are still so nice and regular at the bottom >of the decorative band on a statue means that they had to be pleated onto >the bodice .....) I'm only just now learning to "read" early art. > >Jerusha (who always welcomes more pairs of eyes ....) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 11:43:55 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j35FhseK003825 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:43:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35FelLV008392 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:40:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35FeZ81040782; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:40:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from isis.ntw.net (isis.ntw.net [199.165.233.10]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35FeW1L040733 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:40:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sylvia@ntw.net) Received: from [206.124.3.51] (p35.3c01.pm.dimcom.net [206.124.3.51]) by isis.ntw.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j35Fbl021002 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:37:48 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <4430f5b723bfa8d79e12903c5a3e6a49@ntw.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed To: Historical Costume From: Sylvia Rognstad Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:48:25 -0600 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Japanese kimonos X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have another question for any kimono experts out there (I really love this list--you guys are fabulous!). I'm in the process of altering some authentic Japanese kimonos for use in a play I'm costuming. They are old garments but I'm wondering how old they are, since they are hand-sewn. Does that mean they are so old they were made before sewing machines? I cant imagine that they would be in such good condition if they were. Are kimonos still being hand sewn or would they have been during the 20th century in spite of the presence of sewing machines? They are made out of silk and it looks like the thread is silk too. Sylrog _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 11:58:16 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j35FwG9s003912 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:58:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35FtxLV009999 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:55:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35Fto90055381; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:55:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m-smtp-2.cdc.gov (smtpgw.cdc.gov [198.246.97.19]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35Ftk4v055201 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 09:55:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from NBD2@CDC.GOV) Received: from mcdc-us-ims.cdc.gov ([158.111.6.56]) by m-smtp-2.cdc.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2657.72) id 2LDGRNBB; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:04:21 -0400 Received: from m-ncid-1.NCID.CDC.GOV ([158.111.223.50]) by mcdc-us-ims.cdc.gov with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:50:07 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:50:07 -0400 Message-ID: <51A3B7155A485548A47D068A9793C4FF059456A5@m-ncid-1.ncid.cdc.gov> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: re: bleaching ecrus lace Thread-Index: AcU59yP/3i14wvPZSbScDwEeA7wBpg== From: "Ferguson, Natalie" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Apr 2005 15:50:07.0990 (UTC) FILETIME=[245FF160:01C539F7] X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] re: bleaching ecrus lace X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1692376123==" Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1692376123== content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 T29wcywgbXkgcmVwbHkgZGlkbid0IGdvIHRocm91Z2guIFRoYW5rcywgU29uamEsIGZvciB0aGUg c3VnZ2VzdGlvbiB0byB0ZXN0IGJsZWFjaGluZyB0aGUgbGFjZS4gV2lsbCB0cnkgaXQgb3V0Li4u c2hhbid0IGZlYXIgd2FzdGFnZSA6fQ0KIA0KVGhhbmtzIGFnYWluLA0KIA0KTmF0YWxpZSBpbiBL WQ0K --===============1692376123== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --===============1692376123==-- From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 12:05:36 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j35G5ZdK003976 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:05:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35G4MLV011117 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:04:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35G4JBl063609; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:04:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m23.mx.aol.com (imo-m23.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.4]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35G4GjE063487 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:04:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AlbertCat@aol.com) Received: from AlbertCat@aol.com by imo-m23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r5.33.) id 6.fa.1078be38 (4560) for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:04:10 -0400 (EDT) From: AlbertCat@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:04:10 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Japanese kimonos To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 1201 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm no expert on Kimonos or anything but my Mother had some suits made in Hong Cong [I know....not Japan] in the 1960s and they are entirely hand sewn. On films I've done that took place in the 1950s we uses men's suits and all sorts of ladies fine things all entirely hand sewn. My point is that hands sewn garments, especially if traditional [like a Kimono or even a kilt] or "top drawer", are very available into the 20th century.... and I'm sure even now. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 12:06:10 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j35G6AdD003984 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:06:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35G5ALV011234 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:05:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35G59Qg064401; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:05:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.floodcity.net (mail.floodcity.net [198.93.208.40]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35G55fT064350 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:05:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from basyefelton@floodcity.net) Received: from dialup-0158.floodcity.net ([198.93.211.158]:4931 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by mail.floodcity.net with esmtp id 1DIqY5-0002mf-MZ for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 12:05:06 -0400 Message-ID: <4252B72F.4060202@floodcity.net> Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 12:05:03 -0400 From: Kitty Felton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: References: <200504041801.j34I0Jm3047238@net.indra.com> <200504042321.24203.cathy@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: <200504042321.24203.cathy@thyrsus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO which title? Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: >On Monday 04 April 2005 2:45 pm, fastusminimus wrote: > > >>At 12:01 PM -0600 4/4/05, h-costume-request@indra.com wrote: >> >> >>>Well Drat! Just got word from Barnes & Noble that this title would not >>>be available on the published date, something about 'delayed at the >>>publisher', and they would email be again if it was going to be over 30 >>>days. Anyone else received this notice? >>> >>> > >Yes, I did, too. > > > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 12:20:49 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j35GKnM3004079 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:20:49 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35GJWLV012789 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:19:32 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35GJRiG078137; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:19:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.floodcity.net (mail.floodcity.net [198.93.208.40]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35GJKX5077914 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:19:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from basyefelton@floodcity.net) Received: from dialup-0158.floodcity.net ([198.93.211.158]:4942 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by mail.floodcity.net with esmtp id 1DIqlm-0002HQ-Ov for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 12:19:15 -0400 Message-ID: <4252BA81.10805@floodcity.net> Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 12:19:13 -0400 From: Kitty Felton User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Threee copies of every message References: <1DIgko-04LTvc0@fwd30.sul.t-online.de> In-Reply-To: <1DIgko-04LTvc0@fwd30.sul.t-online.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO dgandh wrote: >Maybe I have something set wrong but I am getting 3 copies of every messages >from this list. which is playing havoc with my in box. > > > >Am I doing something wrong? > > > >Greg > More than likely it is a computer somewhere between you and the source of our list, hiccuping. we all get it sometimes, and no it isn't the list... this time, nor is it likely to be your settings, especially if you didn't get them yesterday. Ahhh the joys of technology. count your blessings, it could be ten copies, which I did one time have for a week from one list. Kitty _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 14:36:15 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j35IaFjM004948 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:36:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35IYkLV000481 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:34:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35IYNn1006735; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:34:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35IXjDZ006247 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:34:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from anne@montgomerie.demon.co.uk) Received: from montgomerie.demon.co.uk ([80.177.117.223]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1DIsrs-000Da3-80 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 18:33:40 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:32:14 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Jean Waddie Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bliauts, was Medieval gowns References: <20050404230617.1719.qmail@web51304.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050404230617.1719.qmail@web51304.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.04-U () X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ann Catelli wrote > > >A linen tunic of mine, with slightly too-long sleeves, >tends towards the horizontal cell wrinkling at the >wrists (parallel to the wrist hem, that is) from my >movements while wearing it. Certainly not proof, but >suggestive. > Many 12th century illustrations show horizontal wrinkling at the wrists of a tight sleeve (usually an underdress but sometimes you can only see one layer). I've seen suggestions that they were cut extra long to exaggerate the effect. It's certainly very characteristic. Jean -- Jean Waddie _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 15:27:35 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j35JRZYs005364 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:27:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35JQSLV006639 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:26:28 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35JP9A5051397; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:25:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo1.socket.net (mo1a.socket.net [216.106.88.129]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35JP0qQ051296 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:25:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo1.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CFC6392D6 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:25:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t1p011.socket.net [64.85.214.13]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 060AED4CD for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:24:59 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Bliauts Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:25:03 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <6B797BB6-A5D1-11D9-89AB-000393DA0BCC@providenceday.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I haven't been following this thread real closely so my apologies for duplication. My first SCA garb was a bliaut, laced up the sides. I made a second bliaut with to long of a waist and not quite wide enough. When I pulled the lacing tight it made horizontal gatherings across the body below the bust. Is there a possibility that there was more then one way of making a bliaut? Could it have been regional? Like Paris made it one way and Brussels made it another? De _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 17:08:37 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j35L8aWU006043 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:08:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35L70LV019695 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:07:00 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35L660R049707; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:06:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cantva.canterbury.ac.nz (cantva.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.2.27]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35L61Sj049602 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:06:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ladyadele@paradise.net.nz) Received: from CONVERSION-A1.it.canterbury.ac.nz by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) id <01LMRO2REDN4IXT0F9@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 09:05:58 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Received: from [132.181.5.228] (itascad45a.it.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.5.228]) by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) with ESMTP id <01LMRO2RUKD4IWOO8R@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 09:05:59 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 09:06:32 +1200 From: Adele de Maisieres Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bliauts In-reply-to: To: Historical Costume Message-id: <4252FDD8.6070301@paradise.net.nz> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) References: X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO otsisto wrote: >I haven't been following this thread real closely so my apologies for >duplication. > >My first SCA garb was a bliaut, laced up the sides. I made a second bliaut >with to long of a waist and not quite wide enough. >When I pulled the lacing tight it made horizontal gatherings across the body >below the bust. > > Actually, I suspect that is the _right_ way of achieing the wrinkles. -- Adele de Maisieres ----------------------------- Quot homines, tot sententiae. ----------------------------- _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 17:08:37 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j35L8axS006044 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:08:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35L7KLV019762 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:07:20 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35L7Ejd050622; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:07:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cantva.canterbury.ac.nz (cantva.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.2.27]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35L6m6L050247 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:07:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ladyadele@paradise.net.nz) Received: from CONVERSION-A1.it.canterbury.ac.nz by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) id <01LMRO3RBOF4IXT0F9@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 09:06:46 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Received: from [132.181.5.228] (itascad45a.it.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.5.228]) by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) with ESMTP id <01LMRO3RUT88IWMU4R@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 09:06:47 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 09:07:20 +1200 From: Adele de Maisieres Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bliauts In-reply-to: To: Historical Costume Message-id: <4252FE08.2020102@paradise.net.nz> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) References: X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO otsisto wrote: >Is there a possibility that there was more then one way of making a bliaut? >Could it have been regional? Like Paris made it one way and Brussels made it >another? > > Regional variations, yes. Completely different construction methods, probably not. -- Adele de Maisieres ----------------------------- Quot homines, tot sententiae. ----------------------------- _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 17:55:06 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j35Lt6b7006259 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:55:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35LrdLV026435 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:53:40 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35LrRGv096607; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:53:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ms-smtp-02.rdc-nyc.rr.com (ms-smtp-02-smtplb.rdc-nyc.rr.com [24.29.109.6]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35LrOka096535 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:53:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marthakelly@nyc.rr.com) Received: from Martha (cpe-24-90-86-191.nyc.res.rr.com [24.90.86.191]) by ms-smtp-02.rdc-nyc.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id j35LrLIe027746 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:53:21 -0400 (EDT) From: "Martha Kelly" To: Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:53:25 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-reply-to: <200504041801.j34I0Jm3047238@net.indra.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Martha McCain Patterns X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm hoping that the next Simplicity Catalog(after "Early Summer" which has just come out)will feature some 18th century patterns by Martha McCain. There were no new costumes in the Early Summer issue which gives me some hope? Of does someone on the list know something I don't? Thanks! Cindy Abel Cindy, I can answer that. I was supposed to have 18th century patterns ready this spring. In fact, I've already spent a year in the libraries, looked at originals, made 18th century muslins, etc. BUT I got waylaid last March by Carolann Schmitt's wonderful lecture on sleeves at the Ladies and Gentlemen of the Civil War Conference. I was inspired to do some basic mid-nineteenth-century bodices with tricky sleeve options. And that's what's coming out soon. There are three packages and I believe they'll appear one at a time. Now I'm working full time on 18th century. No more distractions. Martha _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 17:57:18 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j35LvH5U006280 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:57:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35LtfLV026857 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:55:41 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35LtfDe099002; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:55:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav10.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.82]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35LtbA4098858 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:55:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from audreybmorin2@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:55:32 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.161.203 by BAY106-DAV10.phx.gbl with DAV; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 21:55:32 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [65.54.161.203] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] X-Sender: audreybmorin2@hotmail.com From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <4430f5b723bfa8d79e12903c5a3e6a49@ntw.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Japanese kimonos Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:55:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Apr 2005 21:55:32.0195 (UTC) FILETIME=[30382330:01C53A2A] X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > some authentic Japanese kimonos for use in a play I'm costuming. They are > old garments but I'm wondering how old they are, since they are hand-sewn. Traditionnally, kimonos are hand-sewn and taken apart to be washed, at least according to "Make your own japanese clothes" (1988). They're often formal garments that seldom get washed, once a year or so. They would be hand-sewn, even in the 20th century, until fairly recently, when ready-made kimonos became more popular. Actually, it'll be faster if I just quote the book > Sewing traditional clothing-kimono, in particular- is an exacting art in > Japan. Collars, sleeves, and hems must drape just so; the stitching must > be easily removable for washing the garment piece by piece; the entire > garment, in fact, must be sewn by hand to achieve the ideal results. These > results include proper fit and protection of the fabric (hand stitching > will rip before the fabric does when a seam undergoes stress). > Accordingly, you will not find racks of readymade quality kimono in > department stores. Rather, department stores, as well as neighborhood > gofukuya, or tailor shops, sell bolts of narrow fabric and sew each kimono > by hand to order. Times do change, however. Recently, readymade > one-size-fits-all kimono of lined polyester have made their debut, while > inexpensive cotton summer kimono (yukata) have been mass-produced for some > time. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 18:15:25 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j35MFPfc006386 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:15:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j35MDlLV029227 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:13:47 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35MBqN0014836; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:11:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pop-a065c05.pas.sa.earthlink.net (pop-a065c05.pas.sa.earthlink.net [207.217.121.183]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j35MBj8M014735 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:11:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wickedfrau@earthlink.net) Received: from cpe-24-221-40-235.az.sprintbbd.net ([24.221.40.235] helo=[192.168.1.101]) by pop-a065c05.pas.sa.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DIwGv-0004Qu-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 15:11:45 -0700 Message-ID: <42530D2B.7050409@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 15:11:55 -0700 From: Wicked Frau User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "h-costume@indra.com" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Best Bra again? OT X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi guys, I remember having a discussion once about what you guys thought was the best bra. I am looking for both a sport bra and a regular one. Have any of you tried this Enell brand sport bra? http://www.enell.com/quotes.html# _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 20:06:34 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j3606XAh007096 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 20:06:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3604ELV010809 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:04:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j3603vDD016694; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:03:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web88204.mail.re2.yahoo.com (web88204.mail.re2.yahoo.com [206.190.37.219]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j3603sjn016566 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:03:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nicolaa@rogers.com) Message-ID: <20050406000348.91145.qmail@web88204.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.224.231.236] by web88204.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 20:03:48 EDT Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 20:03:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Carroll-Clark Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bliauts To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Greetings-- --- Adele de Maisieres wrote: > otsisto wrote: > > >Is there a possibility that there was more then one > way of making a bliaut? > >Could it have been regional? Like Paris made it one > way and Brussels made it > >another? > > > > > > Regional variations, yes. Completely different > construction methods, > probably not. I agree. Given that all the clothing from the periods that bracket the bliaut period use generally straight/triangular cut fitting (with the odd little tweak, like those Viking-age tunics with the slightly curved sleeve head, etc.) it's not likely you would see radical differences. It's one of the reasons why I don't tend to go for the waist seam theories. However, weirdnesses like the Viborg shirt mean that I probably can't completely discount it--but just opine I think it's less likely than other cuts. Susan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Tue Apr 5 22:05:56 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j3625uf6007611 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:05:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j3623vLV020796 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 20:03:57 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j3623jdg007877; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 20:03:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51309.mail.yahoo.com (web51309.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.175]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j3623gq8007764 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 20:03:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from elvestoorder@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 60764 invoked by uid 60001); 6 Apr 2005 02:03:37 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=VZVDfRBKQ+FcSGpRLf78kBkpDNUETQR3qiR2SFajm7A9Tk4s3oGIDvJ2dEnGE3xDcalqqdzj5JB7OMpqEtUaDUq6anFAyfjahjkJYMDEko+d2E8pYU/CC92RzsUOXEQ7hO15LHM8XneR233ue1Coi/fA76WB96syGq558u+6pGM= ; Message-ID: <20050406020337.60761.qmail@web51309.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.183.30.107] by web51309.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 05 Apr 2005 19:03:37 PDT Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:03:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Ann Catelli Subject: Re: [h-cost] Bliauts, was Medieval gowns To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO --- Jean Waddie wrote: > Ann Catelli wrote > >A linen tunic of mine, with slightly too-long > sleeves, > >tends towards the horizontal cell wrinkling at the > >wrists (parallel to the wrist hem, that is) from my > >movements while wearing it. Certainly not proof, > but > >suggestive. > > > Many 12th century illustrations show horizontal > wrinkling at the wrists > of a tight sleeve (usually an underdress but > sometimes you can only see > one layer). I've seen suggestions that they were > cut extra long to > exaggerate the effect. It's certainly very > characteristic. > > Jean It's the cell-shape, rather like a distorted honeycomb, that I'm emphasizing here. Lends itself nicely to the stylization shown on several figures from Chartres. You are certainly correct that there are Lots of narrow sleeves wrinkled on purpose up the forearm in 12th century illuminations & other art forms. Ann in CT __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Apr 6 00:04:44 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j3644i0I008076 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 00:04:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36439LV001627 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:03:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j36431Ca097306; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:03:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from softwareinnovation.com (w002.z064000176.dfw-tx.dsl.cnc.net [64.0.176.2]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j3642uq4097170 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:02:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from betsy@softwareinnovation.com) Received: from theforce ([64.0.176.8]) by softwareinnovation.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 23:01:39 -0500 From: "Betsy Marshal" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Threee copies of every message Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 23:02:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <1DIgko-04LTvc0@fwd30.sul.t-online.de> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Thread-Index: AcU5oZCvoOWedFipQJavv4Rdn6+CdAAu6TRw Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Apr 2005 04:01:39.0927 (UTC) FILETIME=[56020670:01C53A5D] X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I got that too, but it turns out I had written one of the Outlook "sort message to.." rules three times. Had to go to the help section for instructions on how the change/edit rules already written. Might be worth checking out. -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of dgandh Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 12:38 AM To: h-costume@net.indra.com Subject: [h-cost] Threee copies of every message Maybe I have something set wrong but I am getting 3 copies of every messages from this list. which is playing havoc with my in box. Am I doing something wrong? Greg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Apr 6 00:56:45 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j364uj8P008265 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 00:56:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j364tMLV009885 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:55:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j364tGXR037178; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:55:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mailout05.sul.t-online.com (mailout05.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.82]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j364tDdH037109 for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:55:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dgandh@t-online.de) Received: from fwd19.aul.t-online.de by mailout05.sul.t-online.com with smtp id 1DJ2ZK-00062x-01; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 06:55:10 +0200 Received: from gandolf (VgIkBcZ6re+kdaOnb1QAqhspEMxGWziqrS8Wd8SZPQmEBJN7CibPox@[217.230.143.75]) by fwd19.sul.t-online.de with esmtp id 1DJ2Z9-1Aibsu0; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 06:54:59 +0200 From: "dgandh" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Threee copies of every message Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 06:54:54 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcU5oZCvoOWedFipQJavv4Rdn6+CdAAu6TRwAAHf8HA= Message-ID: <1DJ2Z9-1Aibsu0@fwd19.sul.t-online.de> X-ID: VgIkBcZ6re+kdaOnb1QAqhspEMxGWziqrS8Wd8SZPQmEBJN7CibPox X-TOI-MSGID: 700921d7-557a-4967-b13e-0676a53a9226 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Besty! Thanks That was it.... exactly! Greg -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Betsy Marshal Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 6:03 AM To: 'Historical Costume' Subject: RE: [h-cost] Threee copies of every message I got that too, but it turns out I had written one of the Outlook "sort message to.." rules three times. Had to go to the help section for instructions on how the change/edit rules already written. Might be worth checking out. -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of dgandh Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 12:38 AM To: h-costume@net.indra.com Subject: [h-cost] Threee copies of every message Maybe I have something set wrong but I am getting 3 copies of every messages from this list. which is playing havoc with my in box. Am I doing something wrong? Greg _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Apr 6 06:52:49 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j36AqmZO010419 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 06:52:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36ApZLV015925 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 6 Apr 2005 04:51:35 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j36ApK3j077479; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 04:51:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from jay.exetel.com.au (jay.exetel.com.au [220.233.0.8]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j32A3q5Q077781 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 03:03:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from glendarob@exemail.com.au) Received: (qmail 12338 invoked by uid 507); 2 Apr 2005 20:03:45 +1000 Received: from 249.88.233.220.exetel.com.au (HELO mycomputer) (220.233.88.249) by jay.exetel.com.au with SMTP; 2 Apr 2005 20:03:45 +1000 Message-ID: <059501c5376b$4e61ae60$0302a8c0@mycomputer> From: To: "Historical Costume" References: <200504011547.j31FlJhL062212@net.indra.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20050402024434.023304c0@pop-server.mn.rr.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] cotton Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 20:04:05 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-DCC-MC-Metrics: net.indra.com 1128; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I've found that there is also cottoned finish in wools, which is often referred to as cotton in pre-cotton-gin periods. They seemed to be used for similar things, so I don't find that I can tell the difference with any clarity by descriptions from the period. I've recently replaced a lot of my 17th century bits and pieces I'd made from cotton lawn with handkerchief linen because of my inability to work out whether fine cotton's OK or not. I have, however got decent references to cotton thread and cotton waste for padding (fencing doublets and mattresses) from the MoL Textiles and Clothing Book. To me, it's one of the more interesting vaguarities of our historical studies. Any input would be appreciated. Glenda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Danielle Nunn-Weinberg" To: "Historical Costume" Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 6:45 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] cotton >I don't know about blended fabrics for sure but I have definite references >to cotton fabric used in England during the 16th century. > > Cheers, > Danielle > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Apr 6 07:06:33 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j36B6Xbt010500 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:06:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36B5aLV018019 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:05:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j36B5WAp087468; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:05:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from isis.ntw.net (isis.ntw.net [199.165.233.10]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j32M75T6047287 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 15:07:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from sylvia@ntw.net) Received: from [206.124.3.160] (p00.3c04.pm.dimcom.net [206.124.3.160]) by isis.ntw.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j32M4L032736 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 15:04:22 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <0320488d96769b960b1e035a44de2a31@ntw.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: Historical Costume From: Sylvia Rognstad Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 15:14:51 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-DCC-indra.com-Metrics: net.indra.com 1044; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Medieval gowns X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I finally have a couple questions I know you experts can help me with. I got a commission to make a medieval dress for an SCA woman, based on Butterick 3552-- http://store.sewingtoday.com/cgi-bin/butterick/shop.cgi? search=3552&s.search.all.x=14&s.search.all.y=14&TI=10001&M=&pageSize=9. She says she has been told that the seams on sleeves from this era are supposed to be toward the back rather than under the arm. Is this correct? Also, I am wondering about the correctness of the over the bust princess seam on the pattern. I think I will have to leave it there, due to the nature of the fabric she has chosen, but it seems a bit modern to me for some reason. I'm going to lace up the back instead of using a zipper. Would grommets have been used yet or would they just be sewn eyelets (which I dont think I am going to do)? TIA, Sylrog _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Apr 6 07:08:02 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j36B82vT010515 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:08:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36B6rLV018436 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:06:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j36B6q1N088607; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:06:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from isis.ntw.net (isis.ntw.net [199.165.233.10]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j335pDNJ036573 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 22:51:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from sylvia@ntw.net) Received: from [206.124.3.92] (p28.3c02.pm.dimcom.net [206.124.3.92]) by isis.ntw.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j335mW016837 for ; Sat, 2 Apr 2005 22:48:32 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: <424F8116.7060304@paradise.net.nz> References: <2982a4646a56230eaffa0a1c6a23ce54@ntw.net> <424F8116.7060304@paradise.net.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sylvia Rognstad Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fwd: Medieval gowns Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 22:59:02 -0700 To: Historical Costume X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-DCC-indra.com-Metrics: net.indra.com 1044; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Apr 2, 2005, at 10:37 PM, Adele de Maisieres wrote: > >> I got a commission to make a medieval dress for an SCA woman, based >> on Butterick 3552-- >> http://store.sewingtoday.com/cgi-bin/butterick/shop.cgi? >> search=3552&s.search.all.x=14&s.search.all.y=14&TI=10001&M=&pageSize=9 >> . >>> >>> I'm going to lace up the back instead of using a zipper. Would >>> grommets have been used yet or would they just be sewn eyelets >>> (which I dont think I am going to do)? >>> > > And no, grommets wouldn't have been used. The little reading I've > done on this area suggests it should lace up under the arms rather > than the back. > > Would you use hand sewn eyelets or loops? Sylrog _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Apr 6 07:09:36 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j36B9avg010525 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:09:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36B8dLV018841 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:08:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j36B8dqC089458; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:08:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web41905.mail.yahoo.com (web41905.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.93.156]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j338eflR037284 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 01:40:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from seamuslady@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 40395 invoked by uid 60001); 3 Apr 2005 08:40:35 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=ep2mEmOGf8VDzjel4w4nbZ7D0p+V7Kvm5GldU1b3Mvmr3ySW0YQhyf291JjS1b4hEdpUQNsXY9/kW0FhEQ2Nlx151uQX5fIh5TGCP6LVA7R6lJ60Simm144JkXOuHEwxF923kNCexJoxfiUx83zy/0iVFYqZWEUsfCduTdfBBmw= ; Message-ID: <20050403084035.40393.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [216.8.166.93] by web41905.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 03 Apr 2005 00:40:35 PST Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 00:40:35 -0800 (PST) From: Lady Satine Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fwd: Medieval gowns To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-DCC-indra.com-Metrics: net.indra.com 1044; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hmmmm Princess seams are not period, Tehy are modern.... I have been scolded by many a Laurel about this...However I have been told by other Laurels as Long as its not an A& S project its fine....What does anyone else think????? Metal Grommets from todays standards are not period... to get arround this I have seen People sew arround the Grommet to hide the Shiny metal thing.... I would use Grommets and not Eyelets because eyelets pull out easier than Grommets.... I have Heard that Hook and Eyes are period... I am lookng into that..... Under arrm sleves v. towards the back....I would check it out further... I have a dozen reasons I do not like that pattern it looks costumey to me even with amazing fabric...and tallented seamstresses..... . but that is my humble opinion..... Satine Sylvia Rognstad wrote: I'm resending this message because it hasn't shown up yet, so if it appears twice, you'll know why. > > > I finally have a couple questions I know you experts can help me with. > I got a commission to make a medieval dress for an SCA woman, based > on Butterick 3552-- > > She says she has been told that the seams on sleeves from this era are > supposed to be toward the back rather than under the arm. Is this > correct? Also, I am wondering about the correctness of the over the > bust princess seam on the pattern. I think I will have to leave it > there, due to the nature of the fabric she has chosen, but it seems a > bit modern to me for some reason. > > I'm going to lace up the back instead of using a zipper. Would > grommets have been used yet or would they just be sewn eyelets (which > I dont think I am going to do)? > > TIA, > Sylrog > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Apr 6 07:10:21 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j36BAKwQ010528 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:10:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36B9SLV019113 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:09:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j36B9R2T090194; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:09:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp811.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (smtp811.mail.ukl.yahoo.com [217.12.12.201]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j33HemB7060826 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 11:40:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from suzi@suziclarke.co.uk) Received: from unknown (HELO solena.suziclarke.co.uk) (h-costume@indra.com@217.44.108.139 with poptime) by smtp811.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Apr 2005 17:40:42 -0000 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050403182936.014c4e48@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: mail.suziclarke.co.uk:suziclarkeuk-mail@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 18:40:42 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Suzi Clarke Subject: Re: [h-cost] Cotehardie sleeves In-Reply-To: <1061.24.4.69.40.1112545886.squirrel@www.inreach.com> References: <012601c53098$2e8b23c0$df159b04@HELENPINTO> <004401c53081$a22ab730$54a810ac@Kate> <012601c53098$2e8b23c0$df159b04@HELENPINTO> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-DCC-indra.com-Metrics: net.indra.com 1044; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 09:31 03/04/2005 -0700, you wrote: >Hi folks! > >Maybe I missed any prior disussion, but I would REALLY like know where I >can find examples of cotehardie sleeves with a seam up the side of the >arm. I mean pictoral evidence. Or a statue or something. I have spent >many years doing costuming and everybody "says" that cotehardie seams are >down the side of the arm but I have never seen pictures that prove it! > >When I did my research a couple of years ago, I found two different >pictures of men (statues from 1340 & 1355) in my book "A Visual History of >Costume" that show the buttons on the sleeves. But after the buttons end, >there is no seam. For those of you who have the book, they are pages 49 & >52. There are several other examples of buttons going up to the elbow >and/or beyond but you only see the profile view so you can't tell if there >is a seam or not. > >So does anybody have a picture (or several preferrably) that shows the >seam up the side of the arm? There is a wrist fragment of a sleeve in "Textiles and Clothing" Medieval Finds from Excavations in London, (HMSO). (Elisabeth Crowfoot, Frances Pritchard, and Kay Staniland). It is dated from the 2nd quarter of the 14th century, and is pictured laid out flat, buttons one side, holes the other. It buttons up the side of the arm, in my opinion, and continues beyond the buttons, perhaps as far as the elbow, as a finished edge. However, it is impossible to tell what garment it came from, and how far the seam continued. It could have stopped at the elbow and a top part of the sleeve could have been attached at that point. The top is very odd, and while it might have the whisper of an armhole shaping it might just be the way it has disintegrated. Not helpful I'm afraid, but a real sleeve!! Suzi _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Apr 6 07:11:06 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j36BB5UZ010532 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:11:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36BA8LV019334 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:10:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j36BA7t7090816; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:10:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from a.mail.sonic.net (a.mail.sonic.net [64.142.16.245]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j342pf4H009669 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 20:51:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from fran@lavoltapress.com) Received: from lavoltapress.com (dial-209-148-113-191.sonic.net [209.148.113.191]) (authenticated bits=0) by a.mail.sonic.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j342pebN027387 for ; Sun, 3 Apr 2005 19:51:40 -0700 Message-ID: <4250ABBE.4000909@lavoltapress.com> Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 19:51:42 -0700 From: Lavolta Press Organization: Lavolta Press User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] A silk garment filched by a monk? References: <4250A2B5.2070707@lavoltapress.com> In-Reply-To: <4250A2B5.2070707@lavoltapress.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-DCC-servers-Metrics: net.indra.com 1049; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO BTW, I should add that, if I recall, this took place in Gaul. Fran Lavolta Press Books on Historic Costuming http://www.lavoltapress.com Lavolta Press wrote: > I remember this story from one of my history classes and just looked > it up again on the net. > > SULPITIUS SEVERUS ON THE LIFE OF ST. MARTIN > (SULPITIUS (or Sulpicius) SEVERUS was born in Aquitania about A.D. 363, > and died, as is generally supposed, in A.D. 420.) > > A Case of Diabolic Deception. > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Apr 6 07:17:06 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j36BH6jw010563 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:17:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36BG4LV020509 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:16:04 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j36BG1VO094743; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:16:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo1.socket.net (mo1b.socket.net [216.106.88.130]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j347KBSY079778 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 01:20:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf1.socket.net (mf1.socket.net [216.106.88.20]) by mo1.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8810338C0C for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 02:20:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (t1p180.socket.net [64.85.214.182]) by mf1.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 3EA3FC46D for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 02:20:10 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: medieval gown Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 02:20:08 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-DCC-indra.com-Metrics: net.indra.com 1044; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Perhaps for lacing you could use grograin ribbon strips. Sewn on vertically on each side leaving openings for the lace to go though. De _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Apr 6 07:18:17 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j36BIG95010574 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:18:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36BHgLV020636 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:17:42 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j36BHfE4095796; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:17:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from staff.washjeff.edu (cleveland.washjeff.edu [209.131.83.40] (may be forged)) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34C4nBg036220 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 06:04:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from rmitchell@washjeff.edu) Received: from ASSP-nospam [209.131.83.40] by staff.washjeff.edu with ESMTP (SMTPD32-8.13) id AD5814200B0; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 08:04:40 -0400 Received: from 209.131.81.106 ([209.131.81.106] helo=rmitchellras) by ASSP-nospam ; 4 Apr 05 12:04:39 -0000 Message-ID: <003101c5390e$b3b16540$6a5183d1@rmitchellras> From: "Lloyd Mitchell" To: "Historical Costume" References: <4250A2B5.2070707@lavoltapress.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] A silk garment filched by a monk? Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:06:12 -0400 Organization: Washington & Jefferson College MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-DCC-indra.com-Metrics: net.indra.com 1044; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Could this be an early tale of the family of "the Emperor's New Clothes"? Kathleen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lavolta Press" To: Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 10:13 PM Subject: [h-cost] A silk garment filched by a monk? > I remember this story from one of my history classes and just looked it up again on the net. > > SULPITIUS SEVERUS ON THE LIFE OF ST. MARTIN > > (SULPITIUS (or Sulpicius) SEVERUS was born in Aquitania about A.D. 363, > and died, as is generally supposed, in A.D. 420.) > > A Case of Diabolic Deception. > > THERE was a certain man, Clarus by name, a most noble youth, who > afterwards became a presbyter, and who is now, through his happy departure > from this world, numbered among the saints. He, leaving all others, betook > himself to Martin, and in a short time became distinguished for the most > exalted faith, and for all sorts of excellence. Now, it came to pass that, > when he had erected an abode for himself not far from the monastery of the > bishop, and many brethren were staying with him, a certain youth, Anatolius by > name, having, under the profession of a monk, falsely assumed every appearance > of humility and innocence, came to him, and lived for some time on the common > store along with the rest. Then, as time went on, he began to affirm that > angels were in the habit of talking with him. As no one gave any credit to > his words, he urged a number of the brethren to believe by certain signs. At > length he went to such a length as to declare that angels passed between him > and God; and now he wished that he should be regarded as one of the prophets. > Clarus, however, could by no means be induced to believe. He then began to > threaten Clarus with the anger of God and present afflictions, because he did > not believe one of the saints. At the last, he is related to have burst forth > with the following declaration: "Behold, the Lord will this night give me a > white robe out of heaven, clothed in which, I will dwell in the midst of you; > and that will be to you a sign that I am the Power of God, inasmuch as I have > been presented with the garment of God." Then truly the expectation of all > was highly raised by this profession. Accordingly, about the middle of the > night, it was seen, by the noise of people moving eagerly about, that the > whole monastery in the place was excited. It might be seen, too, that the > cell in which the young man referred to lived was glittering with numerous > lights; and the whisperings of those moving about in it, as well as a kind of > murmur of many. voices, could be heard. Then, on silence being secured, the > youth coming forth calls one of the brethren, Sabatius by name, to himself, > and shows him the robe in which he had been clothed. He again, filled with > amazement, gathers the rest together, and Clarus himself also runs up; and a > light being obtained, they all carefully inspect the garment. Now, it was of > the utmost softness, of marvelous brightness, and of glittering purple, and > yet no one could discover what was its nature, or of what sort of fleece it > had been formed. However, when it was more minutely examined by the eyes or > fingers, it seemed nothing else than a garment. In the meantime, Clarus urges > upon the brethren to be earnest in prayer, that the Lord would show them more > clearly what it really was. Accordingly, the rest of the night was spent in > singing hymns and psalms. But when day broke, Clarus wished to take the young > man by the hand, and bring him to Martin, being well aware that he could not > be deceived by any arts of the devil. Then, indeed, the miserable man began > to resist and refuse, and affirmed that he had been forbidden to show himself > to Martin. And when they compelled him to go against his will, the garment > vanished from among the hands of those who were conducting him. Wherefore, > who can doubt that this, too, was an illustration of the power of Martin, so > that the devil could no longer dissemble or conceal his own deception, when it > was to be submitted to the eyes of Martin? > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Apr 6 07:19:08 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j36BJ8Yn010590 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:19:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36BI7LV020693 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:18:08 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j36BI7dC096078; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:18:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from isis.ntw.net (isis.ntw.net [199.165.233.10]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34DcSli099851 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:38:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sylvia@ntw.net) Received: from [206.124.3.30] (p14.3c01.pm.dimcom.net [206.124.3.30]) by isis.ntw.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j34DZj025422 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:35:45 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619.2) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sylvia Rognstad Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: medieval gown Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:46:18 -0600 To: Historical Costume X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619.2) X-DCC--Metrics: net.indra.com 1074; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Apr 4, 2005, at 12:30 AM, Robin Netherton wrote: > > On Mon, 4 Apr 2005, Sylvia Rognstad wrote: > >> It's definitely too fitted not to have a closure and since it is not >> historically accurate, what would you all suggest? Grommets? Fabric >> loops? Rings? I'm going to put the closure on the back, not at the >> sides. > Lacing rings appear by the 15th century at least, probably a little > earlier. I feel sure I've seen them in the 14th century in Italy. But > for your purposes, they would probably be harder than making your own > eyelets by hand. What are lacing rings? The metal rings that have been mentioned in previous posts? If so, I'm not sure what they are, where you get them and how they work? I'm not opposed to hand made eyelets. I've done them before. It's just that they take a great deal of time compared to other methods and I doubt the customer is going to want to pay that much. Sylrog _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Apr 6 07:19:25 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j36BJPIh010610 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:19:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36BIQLV020747 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:18:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j36BIOkR096291; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:18:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web40426.mail.yahoo.com (web40426.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.92.37]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j34Em1bk059029 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:48:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hanstar88@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 73182 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Apr 2005 14:47:54 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=dQ8JkKSGySX67+Om/mgxlSvaV28VhzY2efZtzDXeiIqgcCo+GptEhr5aqwNP+k2U81nMK2BywZvup0Co1COO7XHqu2thqn8dn4ixB2PFyqj1rbkIDwACVTUsbgSByM1CV46CgPK9pQHCnLctUIR2gypqWOgnaHnwQZoH0mgE5ls= ; Message-ID: <20050404144754.73180.qmail@web40426.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.204.176.127] by web40426.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 07:47:53 PDT Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 07:47:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Mary To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200504031501.j33F0N48061075@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-DCC-sonic.net-Metrics: net.indra.com 1117; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Medieval gowns X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 01:03:20 -0800 (PST) > From: Lady Satine > Subject: Re: [h-cost] Fwd: Medieval gowns > > I have a question for Adele about Bliaults.... Would you now of any > websites taht have information about them and possible > construction???? or good reference books I may be able to > find...... Thanks > > Here are some other websites about bliauts: HTH, ~mary "Pictures of perfection, as you know, make me sick & wicked." ~ Jane Austen "Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before." ~ Steven Wright _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Apr 6 07:20:30 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j36BKKhR010616 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:20:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36BJFLV020870 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:19:15 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j36BJEI9096946; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:19:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kumc-smtpout.kumc.edu (kumc-smtpout.kumc.edu [169.147.4.11]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34FC09T082493 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 09:12:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ckinsey@kumc.edu) Received: from KUMC-SMTPOUT-DOMAIN-MTA by kumc-smtpout.kumc.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 04 Apr 2005 10:11:52 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.2 Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 10:11:44 -0500 From: "Catherine Kinsey" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-DCC-indra.com-Metrics: net.indra.com 1044; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Medieval Clothing and Textiles vol 1 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Well Drat! Just got word from Barnes & Noble that this title would not be available on the published date, something about 'delayed at the publisher', and they would email be again if it was going to be over 30 days. Anyone else received this notice? Catherine _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Apr 6 07:21:14 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j36BL4XM010620 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:21:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36BJqLV020945 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:19:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j36BJpnr097375; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:19:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from Bluejay.creighton.edu (Bluejay.creighton.edu [147.134.2.20]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34GEP3S041921 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:14:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from CynthiaAbel@creighton.edu) Received: from exbe01.blue.jays.creighton.edu (exbe01.creighton.edu [147.134.2.111]) by Bluejay.creighton.edu (8.9.3 (PHNE_26305)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08031 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 11:14:23 -0500 (CDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 11:14:22 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: When will more Martha McCain historical costumes by Simplicity come out Thread-Index: AcU3mrF7GkerA0/zSU6pJiWjnewkZQBljd0Q From: "Abel, Cynthia" To: "Historical Costume" X-DCC-MessageCare-Metrics: net.indra.com 1108; Body=1 Fuz1=1 Fuz2=1 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.83, clamav-milter version 0.83 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id j34GEP3S041921 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] When will more Martha McCain historical costumes by Simplicity come out X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm hoping that the next Simplicity Catalog(after "Early Summer" which has just come out)will feature some 18th century patterns by Martha McCain. There were no new costumes in the Early Summer issue which gives me some hope? Of does someone on the list know something I don't? Thanks! Cindy Abel brujne@creighton.edu _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Apr 6 07:21:47 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j36BLks1010630 for ; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:21:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j36BKNLV021003 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:20:23 -0600 (MDT) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j36BKMKN097773; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:20:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail6.mdx.safepages.com (mail6.mdx.safepages.com [216.127.133.49]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j34HGn7T005575 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 11:16:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from formfunc@formfunction.org) Received: by mail6.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix, from userid 1012) id CDE23179F2D; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:16:47 +0000 (GMT) Received: from compaqub (1Cust74.tnt2.ofallon.mo.da.uu.net [65.239.178.74]) by mail6.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 84AE8179FB6 for ; Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:16:45 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <013301c5393a$3734f0f0$0400a8c0@compaqub> From: "E House" To: "Historical Costume" References: