From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 07:35:55 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51BZt2h002479 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:35:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51BZBvt013712 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 05:35:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51BZAR8086522; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 05:35:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from audi.websitewelcome.com (audi.websitewelcome.com [67.19.210.130]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51B8KN8064847 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 05:08:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@goldsword.com) Received: from cpanel by audi.websitewelcome.com with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DdR56-0002sg-83; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 06:08:16 -0500 Received: from 127.0.0.1 ([127.0.0.1]) by www.goldsword.com (Horde) with HTTP for ; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 06:08:16 -0500 Message-ID: <20050601060816.nbcxlj07va3soccw@www.goldsword.com> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 06:08:16 -0500 From: "Susan B. Farmer" To: historic costume MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.0) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - audi.websitewelcome.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - indra.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [32001 32001] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - goldsword.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] traveling to Austin TX X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Is there anything costume=y there (or needlework or .....) I'll be in town in August (big Botany meeting) Susan ----- Susan Farmer sfarmer@goldsword.com University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 08:41:47 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51CfkOj004244 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:41:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51Ce4T9019394 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 06:40:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51Ce08Y018145; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 06:40:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51Cdvd9018118 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 06:39:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j51CVqmT008891 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:31:52 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:31:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <429DAC9B.70800@thibault.org> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:39:55 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "h-costume@indra.com" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] 1662 costume notes from Pepys X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Excerpt about men's hairdressing. Sarah is one of the servants. ...and so home, and had Sarah to comb my head clean, which I found so foul with powdering and other troubles, that I am resolved to try how I can keep my head dry without powder; and I did also in a suddaine fit cut off all my beard, which I had been a great while bringing up, only that I may with my pumice-stone do my whole face, as I now do my chin, and to save time, which I find a very easy way and gentile. So she also washed my feet in a bath of herbs, and so to bed. All the rest of it is at http://www.pepysdiary.com/archive/1662/05/31/index.php -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent "Before I die with a hammer in my hand, I'm gonna get me a steam drill, too, Lord, Lord, Get me a steam drill too!" -- The Smothers Brothers version of The Ballad of John Henry _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 09:05:04 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51D53Lf004564 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:05:03 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51D4GGw021056 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:04:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51D4FAx030981; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:04:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk ([193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51D4Bnq030824 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:04:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id j51D3wd08743.; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:03:59 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 14:03:58 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.4 Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 14:03:29 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1662 costume notes from Pepys Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id j51D4Bnq030824 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO NB "Beard" in this context probably means "moustache", as full beards were not normally worn at this time. Kate Bunting Librarian and 17th century reenactor >>> cvirtue+dated+1133181112.e48a2f@thibault.org 01/06/2005 13:39 >>> Excerpt about men's hairdressing. Sarah is one of the servants. ...and so home, and had Sarah to comb my head clean, which I found so foul with powdering and other troubles, that I am resolved to try how I can keep my head dry without powder; and I did also in a suddaine fit cut off all my beard, which I had been a great while bringing up, only that I may with my pumice-stone do my whole face, as I now do my chin, and to save time, which I find a very easy way and gentile. So she also washed my feet in a bath of herbs, and so to bed. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 09:43:32 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51DhWdk005110 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:43:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51DgN5j024319 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:42:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51DgKd5052925; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:42:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web32905.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32905.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.206.52]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j51DgI6N052884 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:42:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from galadrielfinwe@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 17712 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jun 2005 13:42:15 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=QsYqbrX7Z3QpbnQHTc23x/0Q1qxDBqmYsPOdJnaqdaOWrB2ZhAInjHx+dkOMEWucFZK2x6csMPK0g7LsAOWY6h7Suiy76FuSoDC+H4y0qhCvUC7VqYQluAE80HXQeTZp2OIg6nl8SCZ4Qf3+8POUVlh2WnPLL02fGO2e8y+dU00= ; Message-ID: <20050601134215.17710.qmail@web32905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [204.113.19.8] by web32905.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 06:42:15 PDT Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 06:42:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Galadriel of Lothlorien To: h-costume@net.indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Satin question X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Somebody mentioned satin at Ren Faires, something that has always really bugged me for the supposed era people are trying to dress in. My question is this: when exactly was the earliest known appearance of satin, and when did it become more common? Clearly the 1700s is riddled with good examples but what about before that? This occurred to me the other day and I really haven't delved too deeply into this yet. I thought somebody here might be an expert! I'll be taking a textiles class in the fall but I'm too impatient to wait that long. ;) __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/stayintouch.html _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 09:46:47 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51DklTg005165 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:46:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51Did8a024462 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:44:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51DidI6054164; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:44:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pfepc.post.tele.dk (pfepc.post.tele.dk [195.41.46.237]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51DiaIU054128 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:44:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from drewscph@post12.tele.dk) Received: from CPQ21932199711 (0xc3d7be61.boanxx5.adsl.tele.dk [195.215.190.97]) by pfepc.post.tele.dk (Postfix) with SMTP id B284B262835 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:44:35 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <004301c566b0$17b544c0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200505312156.RAA14016@captain.concentric.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] costume musings Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:44:54 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hi Julie, There also are some curators at museums who claimes that those costumes wich has survived never has ben used for some reason. I dont agree on this, but the only proof we have to rely on are the paintings. And for my period 1700 there also are fashion prints. You could imagine that a maid of a woman of fashion would be green of envy of her lady's outfits, and she would struggle and do as best as she could to look like her lady. Some comedians, in Denmark we have a comedy play wrighter who complainted that it sometimes was difficult to point out wich was the servants and wich were the masters, this was not ment ironicly, but a true complaint. So it tells a little about how well dressed servants would be. Street scenes either printed or painted also has a lot of sources to go for when it comes to common people. But then again my period is far from yours and it is much easyer because there are so many other sources for my period. The difference between fashion prints and real clothes in 1700 is not far from eachother, so fashion prints of the 18th century is quite reliable. Bjarne Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Julie" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 11:56 PM Subject: [h-cost] costume musings >I had kind of an "oh wow" moment this weekend. > > I was looking at costuming books (OK, they were the paper doll books) that > had representative costumes by decades starting with the 1920's through > the 1990's. Now I lived through many of those decades and I can tell you > I didn't see much that looked like clothes I actually wore. > > So the big question is, how do we know what was really worn in whatever > period we're studying? It seems that only very special items were saved > or items belonging to royalty (which makes them special). So what were > real people doing when they weren't sitting for their portraits? What > would be a place to look for what minor nobility or merchants really > wore/did? > > Julie > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 09:52:12 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51DqBmw005244 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:52:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51DpOb8025082 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:51:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51DpNuj057994; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:51:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51DpJwK057916 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:51:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j51DhEmT009354 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:43:14 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 09:43:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <429DBD55.2090809@thibault.org> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 09:51:17 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1662 costume notes from Pepys References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Kate M Bunting wrote: > NB "Beard" in this context probably means "moustache", as full beards were not normally worn at this time. That explains why he was already using the stone on his chin! That one puzzled me. Can I post this to the glossary for the diary online? -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent "Before I die with a hammer in my hand, I'm gonna get me a steam drill, too, Lord, Lord, Get me a steam drill too!" -- The Smothers Brothers version of The Ballad of John Henry _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 09:54:29 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51DsTlA005281 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:54:29 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51DrnPQ025256 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:53:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51DrmrL059228; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:53:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51DrjfH059198 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 07:53:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j51DjemT009374 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:45:40 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 09:45:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <429DBDE7.4080109@thibault.org> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 09:53:43 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Satin question References: <20050601134215.17710.qmail@web32905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050601134215.17710.qmail@web32905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Galadriel of Lothlorien wrote: > when exactly was the earliest known appearance of > satin, and when did it become more common? Do you mean shiny satin as if made of silk? Because the weave probably was used earlier. (I have what I believe is some wool satin that my mom found in England a few years back. It's glorious.) -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent "Before I die with a hammer in my hand, I'm gonna get me a steam drill, too, Lord, Lord, Get me a steam drill too!" -- The Smothers Brothers version of The Ballad of John Henry _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 10:01:46 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51E1j5K005401 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:01:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51E0qgf026130 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:00:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51E0osO063727; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:00:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m15.nyc.untd.com (m15.nyc.untd.com [64.136.22.78]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j51E0l7g063623 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:00:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from penhalion@juno.com) Received: from m15.nyc.untd.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by m15.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABBK5R4YAHKAXKA for (sender ); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 06:59:50 -0700 (PDT) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: fRRJgEOSsRehnOwCpkfn7+g2XisDVffMZdJyN0uToSAxaaMM89cHcA== Received: (from penhalion@juno.com) by m15.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KUER8YFM; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 06:59:10 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:56:08 -0500 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Satin question Message-ID: <20050601.085608.-101135271.0.penhalion@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 12-19,21-48 From: Karen R Bergquist X-ContentStamp: 17:8:655256693 X-MAIL-INFO: 023189b589e1243de19124b5b0dd1dc015614d7540ed2df599312d40ed353400958dc43db530a1543d1d09f995e16579a524244480ad60ad29c0e529c0e9d9c0e9a144a5f48415c455f4859461c4e4852519b98510059d8045809074e9a0c080d9 X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 127.0.0.1|localhost|m15.nyc.untd.com|penhalion@juno.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There are numerous examples of satin being referred to in the catalog portion of Queen E's Un'L. As I recall there are also various portraits that appear to show people wearing satin. The problem with people wearing satin at RenFaires is that they generally choose the super-shiney acetate version that is very light and insubstantial (cheap prom dress type stuff). To get the Elizabethan effect with satin you need to choose something quite heavy, like the stuff they sell for lining coats, and with a somewhat matte appearance. I know that sounds odd- matte satin, but there is a spectrum of shininess and to look right in period you should avoid the super shiny stuff and go for stuff with more of a 'glow'. and of course you need to get the skirt looking full enough so you have nice luxurious folds of softly shining satin....mmmmmmm.......I think I feel a satin Elizabethan coming on....... Karen Seamstrix On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 06:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Galadriel of Lothlorien writes: > Somebody mentioned satin at Ren Faires, something that > has always really bugged me for the supposed era > people are trying to dress in. My question is this: > when exactly was the earliest known appearance of > satin, and when did it become more common? Clearly > the 1700s is riddled with good examples but what about > before that? > > This occurred to me the other day and I really haven't > delved too deeply into this yet. I thought somebody > here might be an expert! I'll be taking a textiles > class in the fall but I'm too impatient to wait that > long. ;) > > > > > __________________________________ > Discover Yahoo! > Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out! > > http://discover.yahoo.com/stayintouch.html > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 10:02:15 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51E2E4J005408 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:02:15 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51E1V2R026166 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:01:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51E1V5h064138; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:01:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk ([193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51E1PGq064018 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:01:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id j51E1Jd13415.; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:01:19 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:01:19 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.4 Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:00:48 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1662 costume notes from Pepys Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id j51E1PGq064018 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO By all means, but I think it's already mentioned in the notes. Kate Bunting Librarian and 17th century reenactor >>> cvirtue+dated+1133185394.46599e@thibault.org 01/06/2005 14:51 >>> Kate M Bunting wrote: > NB "Beard" in this context probably means "moustache", as full beards were not normally worn at this time. That explains why he was already using the stone on his chin! That one puzzled me. Can I post this to the glossary for the diary online? -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent "Before I die with a hammer in my hand, I'm gonna get me a steam drill, too, Lord, Lord, Get me a steam drill too!" -- The Smothers Brothers version of The Ballad of John Henry _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 10:06:05 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51E64X2005474 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:06:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51E5PbV026497 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:05:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51E5ORw066551; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:05:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp2.mc.surewest.net (smtp2.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.51]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j51E5Lr4066489 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:05:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joanmj@surewest.net) Received: (s3-20955); Wed, 01 Jun 2005 07:05:17 -0700 Received: from unknown (64.30.124.24) by smtp2.mc.surewest.net (s3-smtpd/0.90-beta3) with SMTP; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 07:05:12 -0700 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20050601065755.00db4ec0@pop.surewest.net> X-Sender: joanmj@pop.surewest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 07:05:08 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Joan Jurancich Subject: Re: [h-cost] Satin question In-Reply-To: <20050601134215.17710.qmail@web32905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-TST: smtp2.mc.surewest.net SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=64.30.124.24 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 06:42 AM 6/1/2005 -0700, you wrote: >Somebody mentioned satin at Ren Faires, something that >has always really bugged me for the supposed era >people are trying to dress in. My question is this: >when exactly was the earliest known appearance of >satin, and when did it become more common? Clearly >the 1700s is riddled with good examples but what about >before that? > >This occurred to me the other day and I really haven't >delved too deeply into this yet. I thought somebody >here might be an expert! I'll be taking a textiles >class in the fall but I'm too impatient to wait that >long. ;) "Satin" is a weave that can be done in any fiber, but is especially good for showing off the shine of fibers like silk and fine worsted-spun wool. The weave goes back to early Chinese times in silk. So silk satins are perfectly appropriate for Renaissance Faires, which are generally set in 16th century England. And we have inventories and other records, especially wills, listing satin. Joan Jurancich joanmj@surewest.net _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 10:14:12 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51EECwW005582 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:14:12 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51EDYpi027173 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:13:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51EDX5J071769; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:13:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51EDU77071747 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:13:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m47.in-tch.com [216.166.191.47]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j51E8ZV22180 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:08:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <429DC3E0.4030908@in-tch.com> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:19:12 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] I'm in love, now were is that winning lottery ticket? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Whew! I escaped that one, handily! Lovely fabric but *wrong* color for me! --sue otsisto wrote: > http://www.denverfabrics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code > =15692&Category_Code=T-d&Product_Count=6 > > http://www.denverfabrics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code > =16901&Category_Code=UPCHES&Product_Count=7 > > De _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 12:51:30 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51GpU6A007778 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:51:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51GoW7R048117 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:50:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51GoUEJ002269; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:50:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail13.mdx.safepages.com (mail13.mdx.safepages.com [216.127.154.243]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51GoQsn002210 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:50:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from formfunc@formfunction.org) Received: by mail13.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix, from userid 1012) id 31521138882; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:50:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: from compaqub (dialup-4.245.6.179.Dial1.StLouis1.Level3.net [4.245.6.179]) by mail13.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix) with SMTP id E01AD13861E for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:50:28 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <021901c566ca$331f1870$0400a8c0@compaqub> From: "E House" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20050601060816.nbcxlj07va3soccw@www.goldsword.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] traveling to Austin TX Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:51:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan B. Farmer" > Is there anything costume=y there (or needlework or .....) > I'll be in town in August (big Botany meeting) UT Austin has a nice textiles collection: http://www.utexas.edu/depts/he/txa/txahistoriccollect.htm but it's only of interest for 19th & 20th century stuff. The museums, unfortunately, seem to be all about the modern art, except for the Blanton Museum at UT Austin, which is closed to the public until Feb 2006! Sad, because they do have a really good collection. Since it seems to be open to students, though, you might be able to talk someone into being nice! http://www.blantonmuseum.org/ -E House _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 13:04:36 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51H4Zhg007972 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:04:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51H3lVA049719 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:03:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51H3B7w012603; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:03:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.200.80]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j51H2hl1012214 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:03:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from snappylunch_2001@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 33344 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jun 2005 17:02:38 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=QhrjXiVsMuXOSByMazjc0xT+VP3vcqn7cAgz8XkF/mNCStf/JATjozN9M2TMEOf/LtYuukSns98hrRkJe0yYXMiQR7pjSTnkkata9oOHzUdqzA36ZbauRMKc4UPjKGX0qIyYK4o52MjR7efd11/fAY3C7HGnOJdAYnw4KVvsj60= ; Message-ID: <20050601170238.33342.qmail@web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [207.4.90.6] by web30107.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 10:02:38 PDT Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:02:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Mia Dappert To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200506011401.j51E1Nit064067@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: what people really wore X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Message: 13 Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:44:54 +0200 From: "Bjarne og Leif Drews" Subject: Re: [h-cost] costume musings To: "Historical Costume" Message-ID: <004301c566b0$17b544c0$4096fea9@CPQ21932199711> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Hi Julie, There also are some curators at museums who claimes that those costumes wich has survived never has ben used for some reason. I dont agree on this, but the only proof we have to rely on are the paintings. And for my period 1700 there also are fashion prints. You could imagine that a maid of a woman of fashion would be green of envy of her lady's outfits, and she would struggle and do as best as she could to look like her lady. Some comedians, in Denmark we have a comedy play wrighter who complainted that it sometimes was difficult to point out wich was the servants and wich were the masters, this was not ment ironicly, but a true complaint. So it tells a little about how well dressed servants would be. Street scenes either printed or painted also has a lot of sources to go for when it comes to common people. But then again my period is far from yours and it is much easyer because there are so many other sources for my period. The difference between fashion prints and real clothes in 1700 is not far from eachother, so fashion prints of the 18th century is quite reliable. Bjarne Bjarne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Julie" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 11:56 PM Subject: [h-cost] costume musings >I had kind of an "oh wow" moment this weekend. > > I was looking at costuming books (OK, they were the paper doll books) that > had representative costumes by decades starting with the 1920's through > the 1990's. Now I lived through many of those decades and I can tell you > I didn't see much that looked like clothes I actually wore. > > So the big question is, how do we know what was really worn in whatever > period we're studying? It seems that only very special items were saved > or items belonging to royalty (which makes them special). So what were > real people doing when they weren't sitting for their portraits? What > would be a place to look for what minor nobility or merchants really > wore/did? > > Julie > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > Hey Bjarne, good to have you back. The people on the street would probably have been greener than the ladies maid. The Maid would have probably gotten some of the out of style, or unwanted dresses, especially of the very highest ladies of fashion. Although I have not seen documents, the 18c womans list has discussed hand-me downs and the second hand trade. To me, Any ladies maid worth her pay would have been able to re-work some of these second hand garments into something very fashionable. Dappert in Charlotte, NC - the 18c centuries 2nd worst servant. Wishing she knew more about the life of a ladies maid, since she frequently portrays one at reenactment in The Am Rev War South --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 13:09:43 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51H9goh008030 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:09:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51H8vL0050538 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:08:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51H8tD8017658; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:08:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from itasca.net (exim@zogfrog.itasca.net [207.195.213.57]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51H8nuA017555 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:08:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from www-data@itasca.net) Received: from www-data by itasca.net with local (Exim 4.24) id 1DdWhv-0001Q3-9F for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 12:08:43 -0500 Received: from riviera.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov (riviera.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov [130.14.21.247]) by webmail.itasca.net (IMP) with HTTP for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:08:42 -0500 Message-ID: <1117645722.429deb9ae3f07@webmail.itasca.net> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:08:42 -0500 From: ynes@sskip.net To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] traveling to Austin TX References: <20050601060816.nbcxlj07va3soccw@www.goldsword.com> <021901c566ca$331f1870$0400a8c0@compaqub> In-Reply-To: <021901c566ca$331f1870$0400a8c0@compaqub> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 4.0-cvs X-Originating-IP: 130.14.21.247 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Quoting E House : > The museums, unfortunately, seem to be all about the modern art, except for > the Blanton Museum at UT Austin, which is closed to the public until Feb > 2006! Sad, because they do have a really good collection. Since it seems > to be open to students, though, you might be able to talk someone into being > nice! > http://www.blantonmuseum.org/ The Harry Ransom Center http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/, also at UT Austin, isn't really about modern art, but rather about modern (after the printing press) media. Their collection includes one of the Scarlett O'hara dresses from Gone with the Wind, but from what's on their site, I don't think that piece is on exhibit right now. There may be nifty costume pictures in some of the print collections that are on exhibit. Wouldn't hurt to email them and ask them if they have anything of interest to a costume historian that you could see while you're in town. - Ynes/Lisa ------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 14:40:54 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51IerdX008980 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:40:54 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51IdwZE061931 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:39:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51IdC6F090361; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:39:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from atlas.concentric.com (atlas.concentric.com [207.155.252.115]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51IcT97089833 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:38:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jtknits@jtknits.cts.com) Received: (www@localhost) by atlas.concentric.com id OAA06261; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:38:26 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.17] Message-ID: <200506011838.OAA06261@atlas.concentric.com> From: Julie To: Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 11:38:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <200506011401.j51E1Nit064067@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id j51IcT97089833 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This reminds me... What are some of the myths/stereotypes of costuming you've had to deal with? The only costumes which survive are those that are from small people. They couldn't be handed down because they were already too small. (what about children?) People were smaller then. Just look at all the small uniforms that have been recovered, small armor, etc. (what about some of the 6 foot plus skeletons, etc...Abe Lincoln) So were they mostly smaller? Sure seems to be so in current times. Children are often taller than their parents and grandparents. Is it diet? Is it genes? Julie ---- wrote: > There also are some curators at museums who claimes that those costumes wich > has survived never has ben used for some reason. > I dont agree on this, but the only proof we have to rely on are the > paintings. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 15:04:16 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51J4FGr009603 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:04:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51J3Sd2067496 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:03:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51J3RbL011950; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:03:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm12.prodigy.net (ylpvm12-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.43]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51J3N7s011877 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:03:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from pimout5-ext.prodigy.net (pimout5-int.prodigy.net [207.115.4.21]) by ylpvm12.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j51J3K28006363 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:03:20 -0400 X-ORBL: [69.107.95.221] Received: from thelema.frys.com (adsl-69-107-95-221.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.95.221]) by pimout5-ext.prodigy.net (8.12.10 milter /8.12.10) with ESMTP id j51J3GdJ149912 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:03:20 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20050601114810.03654a50@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 11:51:07 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) In-Reply-To: <200506011838.OAA06261@atlas.concentric.com> References: <200506011401.j51E1Nit064067@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >Children are often taller than their parents and grandparents. Is it >diet? Is it genes? It is a statistical fact that the first US-born generation of children of Oriental immigrants to this country are larger than their parents. It's probably diet, like from all that meat Americans typically eat. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 15:06:28 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51J6SPv009634 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:06:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51J5cxx068110 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:05:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51J5b8Y014095; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:05:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo1.socket.net (esmtp.socket.net [216.106.88.132]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51J5VJG014036 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:05:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo1.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45C153C3CF for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:05:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (unknown [216.106.93.239]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 0EE78DBB3 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:05:31 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Satin question Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:05:46 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <20050601134215.17710.qmail@web32905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Satin is a weave. The "satin" used today at Ren fests. are not pre 1600s unless it is made of wool or silk. (I have heard rumors to the effect of linen satin but....) Best thing to do is feel sorry for those in the Acetate/Nylon/polysomething satin dress as they will be miserable on those looonnnggg hot days. De -----Original Message----- Somebody mentioned satin at Ren Faires, something that has always really bugged me for the supposed era people are trying to dress in. My question is this: when exactly was the earliest known appearance of satin, and when did it become more common? Clearly the 1700s is riddled with good examples but what about before that? This occurred to me the other day and I really haven't delved too deeply into this yet. I thought somebody here might be an expert! I'll be taking a textiles class in the fall but I'm too impatient to wait that long. ;) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 15:13:02 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51JD1g5009726 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:13:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51JCAOJ070038 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:12:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51JC80o020328; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:12:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.206.192]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j51JC4OF020112 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:12:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from pennyrobertsho@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 70637 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jun 2005 19:11:57 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=bOKhNIcgb7TlnA4t2OFY7nsAeUlJeld7GmB5YNhRZNTkp2cn6ZBFo7KUq3CVqGa0CB6lE9+sYTfKI+TqOGRDrSjtOTqi/+1C3i434hRZ7KDpGpIIIs62+tPnGSpuGZzZhqO2hTnlyiLbHujqnUY+GagmuqyzawwXMy60zpVHYs8= ; Message-ID: <20050601191157.70635.qmail@web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [198.64.35.191] by web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 12:11:57 PDT Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:11:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Penny Roberts Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >Children are often taller than their parents and grandparents. Is it >diet? Is it genes? It is a statistical fact that the first US-born generation of children of Oriental immigrants to this country are larger than their parents. It's probably diet, like from all that meat Americans typically eat. Increased fat and protein, same thing happened when McDonalds hit Japan.... --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel & more fun for the weekend. Check it out! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 15:24:46 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51JOjjP009928 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:24:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51JNuZd071441 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:23:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51JNsfd029666; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:23:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pop03.mail.atl.earthlink.net (pop03.mail.atl.earthlink.net [207.69.200.48]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51JNn8C029612 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:23:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from claning@igc.org) Received: from wamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.224.52]) by pop03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DdYof-0003AX-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:23:49 -0400 Message-ID: <20756740.1117653829300.JavaMail.root@wamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:23:49 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Chris Laning To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Costuming myths? Let's see.... "Women's shirts button the opposite way from men's because women were being dressed by maids." (In previous discussions on this list, we've established that the correlation between buttoning direction and maid service appears nonexistent; instead, it seems to have been a decision, and not always a consistent one, by early ready-to-wear garment manufacturers IIRC.) "White wedding dresses are an ancient tradition." (Only if you define "ancient" as "Victorian"...) "Pink is a color that was impossible to produce in the Middle Ages." (That one's simply false...) "Only kings and queens could wear purple." (Demonstrably not true, but because it's a convention at many Renaissance Faires, a lot of people believe it.) "There were no buttons or buttonholes in the Middle Ages." (Demonstrably not true.) "Peasants not only sewed, but spun and wove all their own clothing." (Demonstrably not true for most times and places; cloth and second-hand clothing seem to have been available and more or less affordable over much of Europe.) "Blackwork embroidery was always reversible." "Built-in pockets in clothing are a modern invention." Then there are the more pervasive myths that are seldom articulated, such as the assumption that in all times and places clothing is decorated with embroidery..... or that fitted bodices frequently expose the entire bosom.... or that folk clothing is exactly like medieval clothing.... And that's not even getting INTO the debateable ones! BTW, my favorite costume myth is one I can no longer locate the original of, which means it must be at least fifteen years since I saw it: that for warmth, medieval women frequently carried small furry animals around with them in the pockets and sleeves of their clothing.... for me at least, the mental images this produces are hilarious! ____________________________________________________________ 0 Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 15:39:48 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51JdmuR010199 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:39:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51Jd8Oe073266 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:39:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51Jd6wq042158; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:39:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp2.mc.surewest.net (smtp2.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.51]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j51Jd3KE042116 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:39:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joanmj@surewest.net) Received: (s3-22446); Wed, 01 Jun 2005 12:22:44 -0700 Received: from unknown (64.30.124.24) by smtp2.mc.surewest.net (s3-smtpd/0.90-beta3) with SMTP; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 12:22:44 -0700 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20050601122059.00dbd200@pop.surewest.net> X-Sender: joanmj@pop.surewest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 12:22:40 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Joan Jurancich Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) In-Reply-To: <200506011838.OAA06261@atlas.concentric.com> References: <200506011401.j51E1Nit064067@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-TST: smtp2.mc.surewest.net SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=64.30.124.24 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 11:38 AM 6/1/2005 -0700, you wrote: >This reminds me... >What are some of the myths/stereotypes of costuming you've had to deal with? > >The only costumes which survive are those that are from small >people. They couldn't be handed down because they were already too small. >(what about children?) > >People were smaller then. Just look at all the small uniforms that have >been recovered, small armor, etc. (what about some of the 6 foot plus >skeletons, etc...Abe Lincoln) So were they mostly smaller? Sure seems to >be so in current times. Children are often taller than their parents and >grandparents. Is it diet? Is it genes? > >Julie "They" didn't have metal buttons (overheard from visitors to Ren. Faire). Joan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 15:46:02 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51Jk1Lh010294 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:46:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51Jits9074143 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:44:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51JirwI047305; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:44:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from zenobia.reddawn.net (rrcs-67-52-227-84.west.biz.rr.com [67.52.227.84]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51Jimb8047105 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:44:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dawn@reddawn.net) Received: from [10.0.0.3] (unknown [10.0.0.3]) by zenobia.reddawn.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E4D03C843 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:44:41 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <429E1067.4090202@reddawn.net> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 14:45:43 -0500 From: Dawn User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) References: <20756740.1117653829300.JavaMail.root@wamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <20756740.1117653829300.JavaMail.root@wamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO "The little bow on your bra is a holdover from corset lacing. " I went looking for this one, and found out that comment comes out of Winter & Savoy's "Elizabethan Costuming". A little more looking and I found that brassieres and corsets evolved concurrently through the end of the 19th century. The corset slid down and turned into more of what we now think of as a control-top garter. I've seen vintage ads for "bra and corset" sets. The bra was always a separate garment, supported by straps, where the corset, when it supported the bust, relied on boning that pushed up from the torso. Anyway. If your bra has a bow on it, it's because the Edwardians put bows on everything, and the lingerie industry has continued the tradition of frilly female underthings. Dawn _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 16:30:01 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51KU1iH011002 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:30:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51KT7FC078404 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:29:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51KT4up081853; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:29:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail13.mdx.safepages.com (mail13.mdx.safepages.com [216.127.154.243]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51KT1Pa081815 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:29:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from formfunc@formfunction.org) Received: by mail13.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix, from userid 1012) id 06DFD138A53; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:29:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from compaqub (dialup-4.244.39.247.Dial1.StLouis1.Level3.net [4.244.39.247]) by mail13.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 13C01138A57 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:29:05 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <006b01c566e8$bbd06610$0400a8c0@compaqub> From: "E House" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20756740.1117653829300.JavaMail.root@wamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <429E1067.4090202@reddawn.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:30:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dawn" > Anyway. If your bra has a bow on it, it's because the Edwardians put bows > on everything, and the lingerie industry has continued the tradition of > frilly female underthings. Yup. If it's a holdover from anything corset related, it's a holdover from the corset _cover_, which often had a ribbon at the neckline. -E the endlessly fascinated by Edwardian underthings. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 17:16:07 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51LG6i1011638 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:16:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51LF9ov083869 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:15:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51LF5SU019641; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:15:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from atlas.concentric.com (atlas.concentric.com [207.155.252.115]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51LExOY019559 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:15:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jtknits@jtknits.cts.com) Received: (www@localhost) by atlas.concentric.com id RAA16689; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:14:58 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.17] Message-ID: <200506012114.RAA16689@atlas.concentric.com> From: Julie To: Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 14:14:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id j51LExOY019559 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This has been fun. I'd love to hear more. ---- wrote: > > >Children are often taller than their parents and grandparents. Is it > >diet? Is it genes? > > It is a statistical fact that the first US-born generation of children of > Oriental immigrants to this country are larger than their parents. It's > probably diet, like from all that meat Americans typically eat. **Funny you should mention Orientals...hubby's heritage is Japanese. His grandfather was about 5' 2" or 3", his father was about 5' 8", hubby is 5' 11" and our son is 6' 2". > Increased fat and protein, same thing happened when McDonalds hit Japan.... **Wow. I hadn't heard that. So the Japanese, still in Japan are taller? > I have a book on the early days of New Orleans where, in 1735 a > commander of the French fort complains about the troops that have been > sent to him are practically dwarves: "There are but one or two men among > them whose size is above five feet, and as to the rest, they are under > four feet ten inches." **That's tiny for adult males. Where were they born? France? > > As for Abe Lincoln, he grew up in the new world, where food was much > more plentiful, and his family was reasonably well-off. **I thought he "wasn't" reasonably well-off...the log cabin thing and all that? Is that another myth? > That said, I wonder why I can't ever find Victorian-era gloves that > aren't ridiculously tiny. Was diet so bad even among the kid-glove > wearing crowd? **Amen to that. I'm plus size by today's standards - both height and weight. We joke about going back in time but I think folks back then wouldn't have known what to make of the lady giant in their midst . > > > I also heard (about 5 years ago) of a study that showed that there was a > higher percentage of weddings in taller males than in shorter ones. From > what I recall, they didn't push the study far enough to state that this had an influence on gene transmittal. **Interesting. I vaguely recall something like that too. > Costuming myths? Let's see.... > > "Women's shirts button the opposite way from men's because women were being dressed by maids." (In previous discussions on this list, we've established that the correlation between buttoning direction and maid service appears nonexistent; instead, it seems to have been a decision, and not always a consistent one, by early ready-to-wear garment manufacturers IIRC.) **Ulp - I thought it was something about keeping the sword arm free. Another myth? > > "White wedding dresses are an ancient tradition." (Only if you define "ancient" as "Victorian"...) > > "Pink is a color that was impossible to produce in the Middle Ages." (That one's simply false...) **I can get screaming fushia with cochenile. Not sure how red kermes would be. Madder also gave/gives red. > "Only kings and queens could wear purple." (Demonstrably not true, but because it's a convention at many Renaissance Faires, a lot of people believe it.) > **I did for a while. That one ticks me off. Purple is my favorite color so I use it a lot. Have to be careful when I'm doing a faire. > "There were no buttons or buttonholes in the Middle Ages." (Demonstrably not true.) **Hadn't heard that one - so easily disproved. > "Peasants not only sewed, but spun and wove all their own clothing." (Demonstrably not true for most times and places; cloth and second-hand clothing seem to have been available and more or less affordable over much of Europe.) **Interesting. Are we thinking colonial and frontier U.S. instead of Europe? I'm hearing this one regularly, and sometimes from arts judges. I'd love to hear more about inexpensive cloth in period where the ladies of the house would buy their fabric to make their clothes. > "Blackwork embroidery was always reversible." **Not from anyone who's tried to do it ;-) > "Built-in pockets in clothing are a modern invention." **Oops - ignorance alert here. I've been going along with that one. Colonial U.S. had separate "pockets" like a belt pouch. Please, pretty please show me documentation of pockets in period. I'd love to show to our judges when I make something with pockets. I've would have claimed it as a creative touch or modern substitution. >or that folk clothing is exactly like medieval clothing.... **no, but I've been amazed looking at modern church vestments how much they look like the ancient ones. The new pope brought that one to mind. > And that's not even getting INTO the debateable ones! **Please do. This has been fun and informative. > BTW, my favorite costume myth is one I can no longer locate the original of, which means it must be at least fifteen years since I saw it: that for warmth, medieval women frequently carried small furry animals around with them in the pockets and sleeves of their clothing.... for me at least, the mental images this produces are hilarious! **Hey, this one at least makes sense. A small warm body in a pocket would be warmer than just a pocket. Course, the warm poo in the pocket would be a down side ;-) (Don't ask about my pet rats...) Any truth to small dogs traveling with their mistresses under their hoops? > ____________________________________________________________ > 0 Chris Laning ** Julie Tamura _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 17:36:04 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51La48e011928 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:36:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51LZEC8086567 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:35:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51LZDcG036197; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:35:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cantvc.canterbury.ac.nz (cantvc.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.2.36]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51LZA3M036151 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:35:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ladyadele@paradise.net.nz) Received: from CONVERSION-A1.it.canterbury.ac.nz by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) id <01LOZBOJ0VVK95O6KY@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:35:04 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Received: from [132.181.5.228] (itascad45a.it.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.5.228]) by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) with ESMTP id <01LOZBOJ293C94GTGU@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:35:03 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:36:20 +1200 From: Adele de Maisieres Subject: Re: [h-cost] Satin question In-reply-to: <20050601134215.17710.qmail@web32905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> To: Historical Costume Message-id: <429E2A54.6090808@paradise.net.nz> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) References: <20050601134215.17710.qmail@web32905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Galadriel of Lothlorien wrote: >Somebody mentioned satin at Ren Faires, something that >has always really bugged me for the supposed era >people are trying to dress in. My question is this: >when exactly was the earliest known appearance of >satin, and when did it become more common? Clearly >the 1700s is riddled with good examples but what about >before that? > >This occurred to me the other day and I really haven't >delved too deeply into this yet. I thought somebody >here might be an expert! I'll be taking a textiles >class in the fall but I'm too impatient to wait that >long. ;) > > > Definitely in use in the 16th century. I think there are some examples in Janet Arnold's _Patterns of Fashion_. -- Adele de Maisieres ----------------------------- Quot homines, tot sententiae. ----------------------------- _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 17:46:40 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51LkeZ1012065 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:46:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51Ljl0q087642 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:45:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51LjjOL045261; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:45:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cantva.canterbury.ac.nz (cantva.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.2.27]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51Ljfvk045201 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:45:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ladyadele@paradise.net.nz) Received: from CONVERSION-A1.it.canterbury.ac.nz by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) id <01LOZC2LLV9C94GKRU@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:45:37 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Received: from [132.181.5.228] (itascad45a.it.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.5.228]) by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) with ESMTP id <01LOZC2L1ZG094GWM3@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:45:36 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:46:53 +1200 From: Adele de Maisieres Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) In-reply-to: <20756740.1117653829300.JavaMail.root@wamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> To: Historical Costume Message-id: <429E2CCD.1080106@paradise.net.nz> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) References: <20756740.1117653829300.JavaMail.root@wamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Chris Laning wrote: >BTW, my favorite costume myth is one I can no longer locate the original of, which means it must be at least fifteen years since I saw it: that for warmth, medieval women frequently carried small furry animals around with them in the pockets and sleeves of their clothing.... for me at least, the mental images this produces are hilarious! > > I haven't heard that one before, but the mental images it produces are _hilarious_. -- Adele de Maisieres ----------------------------- Quot homines, tot sententiae. ----------------------------- _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 17:56:06 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51Lu65N012204 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:56:06 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51LswAp088567 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:54:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51Lsu0A052762; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:54:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from taisp2.in-tch.com (taisp2.in-tch.com [199.96.34.34]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51ELHj0077231 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:21:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mooncat@in-tch.com) Received: from in-tch.com (msla-r1a1m47.in-tch.com [216.166.191.47]) by taisp2.in-tch.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id j51EGMV24642 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:16:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <429DC5B3.30804@in-tch.com> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 08:26:59 -0600 From: Sue Clemenger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Satin question References: <20050601134215.17710.qmail@web32905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050601134215.17710.qmail@web32905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There are examples of satin weaves used in 16th century clothing....I've even seen an extant bit of cut-and-voided velvet (16th c.) that had a background of satin weave, which really made the velvet pile stand out in contrast. --sue Galadriel of Lothlorien wrote: > Somebody mentioned satin at Ren Faires, something that > has always really bugged me for the supposed era > people are trying to dress in. My question is this: > when exactly was the earliest known appearance of > satin, and when did it become more common? Clearly > the 1700s is riddled with good examples but what about > before that? > > This occurred to me the other day and I really haven't > delved too deeply into this yet. I thought somebody > here might be an expert! I'll be taking a textiles > class in the fall but I'm too impatient to wait that > long. ;) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 17:56:51 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51LuooA012221 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:56:50 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51LtUSe088635 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:55:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51LtUoE053213; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:55:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m15.mx.aol.com (imo-m15.mx.aol.com [64.12.138.205]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51EZaEa087424 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 08:35:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from AnnBWass@aol.com) Received: from AnnBWass@aol.com by imo-m15.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r1.7.) id 6.c4.2877bafb (26116) for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:35:14 -0400 (EDT) From: AnnBWass@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:35:14 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1662 costume notes from Pepys To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5200 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 6/1/2005 9:52:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, cvirtue+dated+1133185394.46599e@thibault.org writes: NB "Beard" in this context probably means "moustache", as full beards were not normally worn at this time. No, I think "beard" means all facial hair. Pepys was a proponent of self-shaving. After trying the stone, he later switched to a razor. A later entry, "without being shaved I am not fully awake nor ready to settle to business." While full face beards as we know them were not in fashion, yet it does not appear that every man shaved every single day. I can't find the exact reference right now, but when researching shaving a couple of years ago, I came across a quote that Oxford students were expected to be clean-shaven, but would only be fined if they didn't shave at least every 2 weeks! Pepys himself evidently waited a week once, writing, "Lord! How ugly I was yesterday and how fine today." Ann Wass _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 17:56:55 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51Lut8s012224 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:56:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51Lu2ot088690 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:56:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51Lu0ba053604; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:56:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.io.com (smtp.io.com [209.198.128.91]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51FHUeQ021389 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:17:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from chiara@io.com) Received: from webmail.io.com (webmail.io.com [209.198.128.99]) by smtp.io.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51FHKhP018173 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:17:20 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chiara@io.com) Received: from 165.236.184.195 (SquirrelMail authenticated user ches); by new.host.name with HTTP; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:17:20 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <39232.165.236.184.195.1117639040.squirrel@165.236.184.195> In-Reply-To: <20050601060816.nbcxlj07va3soccw@www.goldsword.com> References: <20050601060816.nbcxlj07va3soccw@www.goldsword.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:17:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [h-cost] traveling to Austin TX From: "Chiara Francesca Arianna d'Onofrio" To: "Historical Costume" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a X-Mailer: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on smtp.io.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ya know, when I went to Paris France I expected it to be full of museums of art and such. NOT. They are all private and closed to the public. Austin out numbers Paris 5 fold when it comes of museums of art. I would do a search for them on google for the exact addresses. The one I love most is off MOPAC and 32nd street (I think that is the right street, it is the one that runs by the military base). They have white peacocks that stroll the yard.... The Harry Ransom Center at UT is incredible. The UGL on the same campus holds the costumes from Gone With the Wind and if you can ... get into the basement of the Textiles building. That is the mecca of costumes from all eras that get donated to the University for one reason or another. Many are not in great condition so they get used by the grad students for study on pattern and technique. That is all I can think of off the top of my head and that info is about 13 years old. I no longer live there but in Dallas. Chiara On Wed, June 1, 2005 6:08 am, Susan B. Farmer said: > Is there anything costume=y there (or needlework or .....) > > I'll be in town in August (big Botany meeting) > > Susan > ----- > Susan Farmer > sfarmer@goldsword.com > University of Tennessee > Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > Franchesca Havas ---------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 17:57:10 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51Lv9Hp012231 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:57:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51LuQNC088729 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:56:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51LuPmo053910; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:56:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp.io.com (smtp.io.com [209.198.128.91]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51FLvld024937 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 09:21:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from chiara@io.com) Received: from webmail.io.com (webmail.io.com [209.198.128.99]) by smtp.io.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51FLtPo018318 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:21:55 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chiara@io.com) Received: from 165.236.184.195 (SquirrelMail authenticated user ches); by new.host.name with HTTP; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:21:55 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <40063.165.236.184.195.1117639315.squirrel@165.236.184.195> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 10:21:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: [h-cost] I'm in love, now were is that winning lottery ticket? From: "Chiara Francesca Arianna d'Onofrio" To: "Historical Costume" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a X-Mailer: SquirrelMail/1.4.3a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on smtp.io.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ooooooooo .... that almost looks like pink ... hmmmmmm mine? ;) On Tue, May 31, 2005 11:49 pm, otsisto said: > http://www.denverfabrics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code > =15692&Category_Code=T-d&Product_Count=6 > > http://www.denverfabrics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code > =16901&Category_Code=UPCHES&Product_Count=7 > > De > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > Franchesca Havas ---------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 17:57:31 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51LvVWF012234 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:57:31 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51Lussr088831 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:56:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51Lur6H054344; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:56:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-d23.mx.aol.com (imo-d23.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.137]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51H3Ivw012636 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 11:03:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Cheryldee@aol.com) Received: from Cheryldee@aol.com by imo-d23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r1.7.) id 6.19e.3491a129 (4312) for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:03:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Cheryldee@aol.com Message-ID: <19e.3491a129.2fcf444c@aol.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:03:08 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Satin question To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5037 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 6/1/2005 8:01:56 AM Mountain Daylight Time, penhalion@juno.com writes: satin at RenFaires is that they generally choose the super-shiney acetate version that is very light and insubstantial (cheap prom dress type stuff). To get the Elizabethan effect with satin you need to choose something quite heavy, like the stuff they sell for lining coats, and with a somewhat matte appearance Plus, the less shine, the better quality the satin because the float is shorter. Ever notice how fast the shiny stuff unravels? Less threads intersecting. Peau de soie would be an example of the good stuff. Luster rather than shine, or what is called "bridal satin", though it tends to be synthetic. For the cheap stuff, think Halloween. Cheryl _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 17:59:14 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51LxE2C012254 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:59:14 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51LwT9h089103 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:58:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51LwRwJ055698; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:58:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from abraxis.com (mail.abraxis.com [216.47.64.210]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51JKjel027167 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:20:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sandraleigh@abraxis.com) Received: from mail.abraxis.com [216.47.64.210] by abraxis.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-8.12) id AA8D33D00AC; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:20:45 -0400 Received: from Sandra ([216.47.84.60]) by mail.abraxis.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:20:43 -0400 From: "Sandra Olsen" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:20:47 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c566df$044b6fc0$3c542fd8@Sandra> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <200506011838.OAA06261@atlas.concentric.com> Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jun 2005 19:20:44.0588 (UTC) FILETIME=[01EB86C0:01C566DF] X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO It's mostly diet. I don't have the stats at hand, but diet plays a huge role in how tall a person will get. Genes dictate the range of height that a person might grow to. Diet dictates where on that range you will end up. Even a person with very tall parents, if he suffers persistent malnutrition in childhood, will be noticeably stunted. I have a book on the early days of New Orleans where, in 1735 a commander of the French fort complains about the troops that have been sent to him are practically dwarves: "There are but one or two men among them whose size is above five feet, and as to the rest, they are under four feet ten inches." He goes on to complain at length about the larcenous nature of the new troops. These guys were probably born in poverty and went hungry a lot as kids. As for Abe Lincoln, he grew up in the new world, where food was much more plentiful, and his family was reasonably well-off. That said, I wonder why I can't ever find Victorian-era gloves that aren't ridiculously tiny. Was diet so bad even among the kid-glove wearing crowd? -----Original Message----- From: h-costume-bounces@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-bounces@indra.com] On Behalf Of Julie Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 2:38 PM To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) This reminds me... What are some of the myths/stereotypes of costuming you've had to deal with? The only costumes which survive are those that are from small people. They couldn't be handed down because they were already too small. (what about children?) People were smaller then. Just look at all the small uniforms that have been recovered, small armor, etc. (what about some of the 6 foot plus skeletons, etc...Abe Lincoln) So were they mostly smaller? Sure seems to be so in current times. Children are often taller than their parents and grandparents. Is it diet? Is it genes? Julie ---- wrote: > There also are some curators at museums who claimes that those costumes wich > has survived never has ben used for some reason. > I dont agree on this, but the only proof we have to rely on are the > paintings. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 17:59:32 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51LxW3H012265 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:59:32 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51LwrhT089153 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:58:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51LwqAi056007; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:58:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from omc3-s35.bay6.hotmail.com (omc3-s35.bay6.hotmail.com [65.54.249.109]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51JMvrJ028808 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:22:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from audreybmorin2@hotmail.com) Received: from hotmail.com ([65.54.161.96]) by omc3-s35.bay6.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:22:52 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:22:51 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.161.200 by BAY106-DAV24.phx.gbl with DAV; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 19:22:51 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [65.54.161.200] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] X-Sender: audreybmorin2@hotmail.com From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20050601191157.70635.qmail@web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:22:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jun 2005 19:22:51.0910 (UTC) FILETIME=[4DCF5260:01C566DF] X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > It is a statistical fact that the first US-born generation of children of > Oriental immigrants to this country are larger than their parents. It's > probably diet, like from all that meat Americans typically eat. > > Increased fat and protein, same thing happened when McDonalds hit > Japan.... I also heard (about 5 years ago) of a study that showed that there was a higher percentage of weddings in taller males than in shorter ones. From what I recall, they didn't push the study far enough to state that this had an influence on gene transmittal. I don't know if the study was any good or if the results were verified. But it's enough to say that it *might* also have something to do with genetics. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 18:00:01 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51M00Nu012277 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:00:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51LxITr089207 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:59:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51LxGtI056342; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:59:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51JSGrS032973 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:28:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j51JK6mT013433 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:20:06 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:20:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <429E0C48.4070901@thibault.org> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:28:08 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) References: <20050601191157.70635.qmail@web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050601191157.70635.qmail@web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Penny Roberts wrote: > It is a statistical fact that the first US-born generation of children of > Oriental immigrants to this country are larger than their parents. It's > probably diet, like from all that meat Americans typically eat. No argument to this data point, it's just that it can't be extrapolated backwards more than a few decades. Measurements of bones or other records don't show much difference between a medieval European and a modern one. I know there's a bunch of data in the archives about this. If anyone has trouble finding it, pipe up and we can all go archive-mining together. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent "Before I die with a hammer in my hand, I'm gonna get me a steam drill, too, Lord, Lord, Get me a steam drill too!" -- The Smothers Brothers version of The Ballad of John Henry _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 18:00:17 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51M0Hvj012280 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:00:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51LxcVu089247 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:59:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51LxcA5056692; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:59:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pop03.mail.atl.earthlink.net (pop03.mail.atl.earthlink.net [207.69.200.48]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51JTCR7033784 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:29:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from claning@igc.org) Received: from wamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.224.52]) by pop03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DdYtr-0004j6-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:29:11 -0400 Message-ID: <22479594.1117654151835.JavaMail.root@wamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:29:11 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Chris Laning To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Satin question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Joan commented: >So silk satins >are perfectly appropriate for Renaissance Faires, which are generally set >in 16th century England. And we have inventories and other records, >especially wills, listing satin. True: but _silk_ satin is expensive and hard to find, and modern synthetic satins tend to be too lightweight, too slithery, and far too shiny to look like their period equivalents. Not to mention the fact that they generally don't "breathe" and so are rather uncomfortable to wear to summer events (like renfaires). I've seen the wrong side of a heavier than usual synthetic satin used in small amounts with some success, though. And apparently if you can find somethng called "peau de soie", which isn't nearly as brilliantly shiny as ordinary satin, that's a better match for the look of period satin. Although as Joan will tell you, it snags very easily, right Joan? If I remember correctly, you had a panel of it on one of your gowns that barely lasted the season... ____________________________________________________________ 0 Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 18:00:42 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51M0fm4012286 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:00:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51LxxMt089287 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:59:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51LxwKD056978; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:59:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo1.socket.net (esmtp.socket.net [216.106.88.132]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51JWWN9036570 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:32:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf2.socket.net (mf2.socket.net [216.106.88.48]) by mo1.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 714A03BD3F for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:32:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (unknown [216.106.93.239]) by mf2.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 279551509D for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:32:32 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 14:32:47 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-Reply-To: <20756740.1117653829300.JavaMail.root@wamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO <<<<"Only kings and queens could wear purple." (Demonstrably not true, but because it's a convention at many Renaissance Faires, a lot of people believe it.)>>>>>> Hmmmm. I've got this lovely simple patterned purple material...hmmmm. I be going in Sept to a RenFest....hmmmm. Do I want to disturb the bovine fecal matter? :) De _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 18:01:00 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51M0xfF012292 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:01:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51M0LQp089353 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:00:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51M0Kp5057308; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:00:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web32914.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32914.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.206.61]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j51Ja4mW039602 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:36:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from galadrielfinwe@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 13987 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jun 2005 19:35:59 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=AU8WQQY9jNBizrg1YSxWcGKZT8n09qCjhj8+YS0OJGSi23zTFMpG1BF3lJme3cNOO6hFZ9sNMl6RCcpMMBkeq30fBKJXAXsgblJhFWyaEW2VO7tjV8n7dXZo55NgVF3EVfH0H1SCbk2oEwuMD73t9hpH6lCpnDWBzu741Ljk8Hk= ; Message-ID: <20050601193559.13985.qmail@web32914.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [204.113.19.8] by web32914.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 12:35:59 PDT Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:35:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Galadriel of Lothlorien To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200506011800.j51I0Pwr060311@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Satin Question X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yes, I know Satin is a weave! :) And yes, the Orient had satins wayyy back when... I should have been more specific in my question. I was thinking narrow-mindedly of western culture. Teehee. Thanks for the responses, though. It looks like it will definitely require some more research. That's interesting about it being in wills! I never would have thought to look there. I'll bet there's all sorts of interesting things to learn from wills! > There are examples of satin weaves used in 16th > century clothing....I've > even seen an extant bit of cut-and-voided velvet > (16th c.) that had a > background of satin weave, which really made the > velvet pile stand out > in contrast. > --sue That sounds absolutely breathtaking! Hm, I may want to "steal" that idea (or "re-create"... right? wink wink). "Is there any hope, Gandalf? . . . For Frodo and Sam?" "There never was much hope. Just a fool's hope." --Pippin and Gandalf, RETURN OF THE KING __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 18:01:14 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51M1DBR012300 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:01:13 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51M0RDJ089381 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:00:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51M0QgV057415; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:00:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cantva.canterbury.ac.nz (cantva.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.2.27]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51M0MiF057337 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:00:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ladyadele@paradise.net.nz) Received: from CONVERSION-A1.it.canterbury.ac.nz by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) id <01LOZCKS1KTC95O6L7@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:00:16 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Received: from [132.181.5.228] (itascad45a.it.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.5.228]) by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) with ESMTP id <01LOZCKRPWWE8WXF07@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:00:16 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:01:34 +1200 From: Adele de Maisieres Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) In-reply-to: <200506012114.RAA16689@atlas.concentric.com> To: Historical Costume Message-id: <429E303E.5090008@paradise.net.nz> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) References: <200506012114.RAA16689@atlas.concentric.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Julie wrote: >>Increased fat and protein, same thing happened when McDonalds hit Japan.... >> >> > >**Wow. I hadn't heard that. So the Japanese, still in Japan are taller? > > Young Japanese people are often _much_ taller than their parent-- but I think directly attributing that to McDonalds is rubbish. > <> > >>As for Abe Lincoln, he grew up in the new world, where food was much >>more plentiful, and his family was reasonably well-off. >> >> > >**I thought he "wasn't" reasonably well-off...the log cabin thing and all that? Is that another myth? > > For one thing, the diet of the lower classes in America was probably better than that of the lower classes in Europe. For another, one datum does not a statistic make. >>That said, I wonder why I can't ever find Victorian-era gloves that >>aren't ridiculously tiny. Was diet so bad even among the kid-glove >>wearing crowd? >> >> I don't know-- I do notice that about gloves, but then, my perusal of old catalogues from Canada indicates that the shoe size range available is generally similar to what you'd get in modern shops. (UK 3-8 = roughly US 5-10/11) and that the most common size range for corsets was 18-30 inch waist (ie fitting up to about a 34-35" waist when you take into account the fact that many women's corsets had a 2-3" gap when worn) Maybe it's just that kid leather is prone to shrinkage? >>Costuming myths? Let's see.... >> >>"Women's shirts button the opposite way from men's because women were being dressed by maids." (In previous discussions on this list, we've established that the correlation between buttoning direction and maid service appears nonexistent; instead, it seems to have been a decision, and not always a consistent one, by early ready-to-wear garment manufacturers IIRC.) >> >> > >**Ulp - I thought it was something about keeping the sword arm free. Another myth? > > I think nearly anything that posits a relationship between weapons use and ordinary clothes can be dismissed. >>"Peasants not only sewed, but spun and wove all their own clothing." (Demonstrably not true for most times and places; cloth and second-hand clothing seem to have been available and more or less affordable over much of Europe.) >> >> > >**Interesting. Are we thinking colonial and frontier U.S. instead of Europe? I'm hearing this one regularly, and sometimes from arts judges. I'd love to hear more about inexpensive cloth in period where the ladies of the house would buy their fabric to make their clothes. > > A loom would actually have been a _huge_ investment-- and as such, cloth was woven by professionals. >>"Built-in pockets in clothing are a modern invention." >> >> >**Oops - ignorance alert here. I've been going along with that one. Colonial U.S. had separate "pockets" like a belt pouch. Please, pretty please show me documentation of pockets in period. I'd love to show to our judges when I make something with pockets. I've would have claimed it as a creative touch or modern substitution. > > I think Janet Arnold's _Patterns of Fashion_ has a picture of a pair of Venetians with a pocket set into the side seam. This is _not_ to say that pockets on seperate bands didn't stay popular for at least another 300 years. -- Adele de Maisieres ----------------------------- Quot homines, tot sententiae. ----------------------------- _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 18:01:25 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51M1Osq012304 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:01:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51M0krW089467 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:00:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51M0jIX057703; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:00:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm15.prodigy.net (ylpvm15-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.46]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51JcVi6041541 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:38:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from pimout7-ext.prodigy.net (pimout7-int.prodigy.net [207.115.4.147]) by ylpvm15.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j51JcZNs031021 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:38:35 -0400 X-ORBL: [69.107.95.221] Received: from thelema.frys.com (adsl-69-107-95-221.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.95.221]) by pimout7-ext.prodigy.net (8.12.10 milter /8.12.10) with ESMTP id j51JcEKH247156 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:38:30 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20050601123615.0273a648@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 12:38:08 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) In-Reply-To: <20756740.1117653829300.JavaMail.root@wamui-valley.atl.sa.e arthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >BTW, my favorite costume myth is one I can no longer locate the original >of, which means it must be at least fifteen years since I saw it: that for >warmth, medieval women frequently carried small furry animals around with >them in the pockets and sleeves of their clothing.... for me at least, the >mental images this produces are hilarious! The closest I have heard to that is that small dogs, besides being amusing, were warmer than people-body-temperature. And Eskimos do sleep next to dogs on cold nights (or is it the dogs choosing to sleep next to the people?). CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 18:01:43 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51M1hPf012313 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:01:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51M15Ij089507 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:01:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51M155f058011; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:01:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm12.prodigy.net (ylpvm12-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.43]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51JuYXR056642 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 13:56:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from pimout6-ext.prodigy.net (pimout6-int.prodigy.net [207.115.4.22]) by ylpvm12.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j51JuW28032690 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:56:32 -0400 X-ORBL: [69.107.95.221] Received: from thelema.frys.com (adsl-69-107-95-221.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.95.221]) by pimout6-ext.prodigy.net (8.12.10 milter /8.12.10) with ESMTP id j51JuWuh216456 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:56:33 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20050601125258.0267d3f8@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 12:56:23 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) In-Reply-To: <200506011838.OAA06261@atlas.concentric.com> References: <200506011401.j51E1Nit064067@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >This reminds me... >What are some of the myths/stereotypes of costuming you've had to deal with? "18-inch waists were common." Someone pointed out to me that the average head is something like 22 inches around. So if the photograph shows the head larger than the waist, we're not looking at a photo of any 18-inch waist. And pre-PhotoShop photo re-touching is pretty obvious in most cases. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 18:02:40 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51M2e4h012327 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:02:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51M20jf089613 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:02:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51M20xq058711; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:02:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from carp.serverhost.net (carp.serverhost.net [216.71.32.15]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51L1i1s008722 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:01:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from althea@alfalfapress.com) Received: from alfalfapress.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by carp.serverhost.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j51L1cD02985 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:01:38 -0400 From: "Althea Turner" To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:01:38 -0500 Message-Id: <20050601210138.M99418@alfalfapress.com> In-Reply-To: <20756740.1117653829300.JavaMail.root@wamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <20756740.1117653829300.JavaMail.root@wamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Open WebMail 1.71 20021114 X-OriginatingIP: 128.193.178.174 (alfalfapress@alfalfapress.com) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 12:23:49 -0700 (GMT-07:00), Chris Laning wrote >> BTW, my favorite costume myth is one I can no longer locate the > original of, which means it must be at least fifteen years since I > saw it: that for warmth, medieval women frequently carried small > furry animals around with them in the pockets and sleeves of their > clothing.... for me at least, the mental images this produces are hilarious! > Why am I hearing in my head strains of the song, "When the squirrel went berzerk in the First Selfrighteous church in the sleepy little town of Tuskagoula" :D Obligatory costume content - I have a chunk 2' x 2' of soft white leather and am not sure what to use it for. I've thought gloves, but am not sure of my ability after one class. Any suggestions for something 16th C Venice or 6th C Francia? Althea *** Directory of Diverse Knowledge http://www.alfalfapress.com/sca Althea Turner althea@alfalfapress.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 18:03:11 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51M3AP1012332 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:03:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51M2WA4089688 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:02:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51M2Uah059121; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:02:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:root@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51LZusU036684 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:35:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from robin@shell.nightowl.net) Received: from shell.nightowl.net (IDENT:robin@shell.nightowl.net [209.176.170.30]) by shell.nightowl.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA32393 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:53:26 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:53:25 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) In-Reply-To: <429E1067.4090202@reddawn.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Dawn wrote: > "The little bow on your bra is a holdover from corset lacing. " > ... > Anyway. If your bra has a bow on it, it's because the Edwardians put > bows on everything, and the lingerie industry has continued the > tradition of frilly female underthings. But in a nice example of like-things-recurring over time: The busk on an Elizabethan corset can be secured at the top by a small lace or point or ribbon put through the corset, which (when tied) produces a little bow at the same point we're accustomed to seeing bra bows. And if that's not enough: I don't have a source for this, but I've heard others comment on Elizabethan-era references to the giving of one's busk-lace as an intimate gift from a woman to a man (perhaps suggesting that once the lace is undone, the busk can be removed...). And it seems that within the last few decades, there has been a custom among teenage girls to clip off their bra bows to give to their boyfriends. I'd love to have a source on the giving of busk-strings, just because the parallel is so cute. --Robin _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 18:03:29 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51M3Sfj012339 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:03:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51M2pIU089728 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:02:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51M2p8N059382; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:02:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cantva.canterbury.ac.nz (cantva.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.2.27]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51LbQ73037915 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:37:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ladyadele@paradise.net.nz) Received: from CONVERSION-A1.it.canterbury.ac.nz by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) id <01LOZBREHYSW8Y8L15@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:37:22 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Received: from [132.181.5.228] (itascad45a.it.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.5.228]) by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) with ESMTP id <01LOZBREBCFU94GY8M@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:37:22 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:38:39 +1200 From: Adele de Maisieres Subject: Re: [h-cost] Satin question In-reply-to: <20050601.085608.-101135271.0.penhalion@juno.com> To: Historical Costume Message-id: <429E2ADF.2030105@paradise.net.nz> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) References: <20050601.085608.-101135271.0.penhalion@juno.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Karen R Bergquist wrote: >To get the Elizabethan effect with satin you need to choose >something quite heavy, like the stuff they sell for lining coats, and >with a somewhat matte appearance. I know that sounds odd- matte satin, >but there is a spectrum of shininess and to look right in period you >should avoid the super shiny stuff and go for stuff with more of a >'glow'. and of course you need to get the skirt looking full enough so >you have nice luxurious folds of softly shining satin....mmmmmmm.......I >think I feel a satin Elizabethan coming on....... > I think the "good stuff" is sold as Duchesse or delustred satin. It's fairly heavyweight, and popular for wedding gowns and the like. -- Adele de Maisieres ----------------------------- Quot homines, tot sententiae. ----------------------------- _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 18:03:53 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51M3rTg012353 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:03:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51M3Gbj089783 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:03:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51M3FMj059682; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:03:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cantvc.canterbury.ac.nz (cantvc.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.2.36]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51LhO64043099 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:43:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ladyadele@paradise.net.nz) Received: from CONVERSION-A1.it.canterbury.ac.nz by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) id <01LOZBYT49FK8Y8FH8@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:43:21 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Received: from [132.181.5.228] (itascad45a.it.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.5.228]) by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) with ESMTP id <01LOZBYSTQBM94GWM3@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:43:20 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:44:37 +1200 From: Adele de Maisieres Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) In-reply-to: <200506011838.OAA06261@atlas.concentric.com> To: Historical Costume Message-id: <429E2C45.7080708@paradise.net.nz> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) References: <200506011838.OAA06261@atlas.concentric.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Julie wrote: >People were smaller then. Just look at all the small uniforms that have been recovered, small armor, etc. (what about some of the 6 foot plus skeletons, etc...Abe Lincoln) So were they mostly smaller? Sure seems to be so in current times. Children are often taller than their parents and grandparents. Is it diet? Is it genes? > > It depends what you mean. It's probably safest to say that the heights of _lower_class people have increased a good deal, but those of upper class people by much less. A friend of mine is interested in 19th century militaria and says that many of the jackets he's found have been too small for him-- and he's only 5'7" and slim. Heights are determined by a combination of genetics and diet. And a single example doesn't prove anything about averages-- Lincoln was considered a tall man while he was alive. -- Adele de Maisieres ----------------------------- Quot homines, tot sententiae. ----------------------------- _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 18:06:43 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51M6hpp012413 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:06:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51M60O1090077 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:06:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51M60tD061758; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:06:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web52810.mail.yahoo.com (web52810.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.39.174]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j51M5vg9061664 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:05:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kjp1685@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 85007 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jun 2005 22:05:51 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=bx6Umd+ChQr5SjIwfBnnr0c1DItSA9ZnAZ3hbJYsRqjNEW1+E9956E6Ox8BFAqJv2kPaeHkgLhz5xekM25Bp45daE3sJF1PszZRwGktNTwOhsWIhJfTsG2iNIx8mHXVvugRLNqr3o6u724uYtpAzhHNPwJiHgyXAfFwVIy2h7LQ= ; Message-ID: <20050601220551.85005.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.103.24.30] by web52810.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:05:51 PDT Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:05:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Kathryn Parke Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <200506012114.RAA16689@atlas.concentric.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > That said, I wonder why I can't ever find Victorian-era gloves that > aren't ridiculously tiny. Was diet so bad even among the kid-glove > wearing crowd? I've read in several places that earlier women (Regency, I think) deliberately wore gloves too small for them in order to make their hands look daintier -- thus, the references to the women "working their hands into" their gloves. It would make sense to me that that aesthetic would have continued into the Victorian period. I believe I've also read that about shoes -- have mercy! I can't even imagine the discomfort, if that's true, as the clothes themselves look hot and confining enough without extra torture! I live in an un-air-condititioned Victorian in KS, and I've always joked that I'd have had to be a prostitute, just so I could take my clothes off during the day... KP __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 18:11:10 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51MBA31012489 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:11:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51MAPWl090537 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:10:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51MAOgQ065215; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:10:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51MALWw065170 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:10:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j51M2DmT015009 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:02:13 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 18:02:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <429E3248.6020201@thibault.org> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 18:10:16 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1662 costume notes from Pepys References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Kate M Bunting wrote: > By all means, but I think it's already mentioned in the notes. Oh! Right you are. -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent "Before I die with a hammer in my hand, I'm gonna get me a steam drill, too, Lord, Lord, Get me a steam drill too!" -- The Smothers Brothers version of The Ballad of John Henry _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 18:14:20 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51MEKZq012534 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:14:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51MDY2D090901 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:13:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51MDVQ4067604; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:13:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mo1.socket.net (esmtp.socket.net [216.106.88.132]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51MDRu1067553 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:13:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from otsisto@socket.net) Received: from mf1.socket.net (mf1.socket.net [216.106.88.20]) by mo1.socket.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 935BF3C18A for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:13:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from CAT1 (unknown [216.106.93.239]) by mf1.socket.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 54958C65E for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:13:26 -0500 (CDT) From: "otsisto" To: "Historical Costume" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:13:39 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <429E2CCD.1080106@paradise.net.nz> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I have heard that one a few times. Mostly associated with "Italian". So called docs. used for it was the portraits with the little dogs in them. I guess those little critters escaped from the pockets while the portraits were being painted. :) De -----Original Message----- Chris Laning wrote: >BTW, my favorite costume myth is one I can no longer locate the original of, which means it must be at least fifteen years since I saw it: that for warmth, medieval women frequently carried small furry animals around with them in the pockets and sleeves of their clothing.... for me at least, the mental images this produces are hilarious! > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 18:16:44 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51MGhUM012564 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:16:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51MFgpw091128 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:15:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51MEgf5068521; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:15:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ecserv7.uwaterloo.ca (ecserv7.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.127]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51MEUvr068354 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:14:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lbmorloc@artsmail.uwaterloo.ca) Received: from ecserv7.uwaterloo.ca (localhost.uwaterloo.ca [127.0.0.1]) by ecserv7.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j51MEWjZ080785 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:14:32 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lbmorloc@artsmail.uwaterloo.ca) Received: (from www@localhost) by ecserv7.uwaterloo.ca (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j51MEWGn080784 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:14:32 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lbmorloc@artsmail.uwaterloo.ca) X-Authentication-Warning: ecserv7.uwaterloo.ca: www set sender to lbmorloc@artsmail.uwaterloo.ca using -f Received: from 65.93.28.92 ( [65.93.28.92]) as user lbmorloc@artsmail.uwaterloo.ca by www.nexusmail.uwaterloo.ca with HTTP; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 18:14:32 -0400 Message-ID: <1117664072.429e33487ab4d@www.nexusmail.uwaterloo.ca> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 18:14:32 -0400 From: Laura Morlock To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.1 / FreeBSD-4.6.2 X-Originating-IP: 65.93.28.92 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There's a corset in the Williamsburg collection measuring around 30 inches. Laura >This reminds me... >What are some of the myths/stereotypes of costuming you've had to deal with? "18-inch waists were common."  Someone pointed out to me that the average head is something like 22 inches around.  So if the photograph shows the head larger than the waist, we're not looking at a photo of any 18-inch waist.  And pre-PhotoShop photo re-touching is pretty obvious in most cases. -- "If you can't feed a hundred people then just feed one." Mother Theresa -- www.thehungersite.com ---------------------------------------- This mail sent through www.mywaterloo.ca _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 18:16:44 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51MGhq4012565 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:16:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51MFgSV091126 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:15:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51MFXPQ069007; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:15:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cantva.canterbury.ac.nz (cantva.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.2.27]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51MFBZm068774 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:15:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ladyadele@paradise.net.nz) Received: from CONVERSION-A1.it.canterbury.ac.nz by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) id <01LOZD33V0GW95O6KY@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:15:04 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Received: from [132.181.5.228] (itascad45a.it.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.5.228]) by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) with ESMTP id <01LOZD303XYC8WX8NA@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:14:58 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:16:16 +1200 From: Adele de Maisieres Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) In-reply-to: <20050601210138.M99418@alfalfapress.com> To: Historical Costume Message-id: <429E33B0.3070605@paradise.net.nz> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) References: <20756740.1117653829300.JavaMail.root@wamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20050601210138.M99418@alfalfapress.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Althea Turner wrote: >Obligatory costume content - I have a chunk 2' x 2' of soft white leather and >am not sure what to use it for. I've thought gloves, but am not sure of my >ability after one class. Any suggestions for something 16th C Venice or 6th >C Francia? > > > I _would_ go for glowes. But if you're not sure of your ability, fold it up nicely and put it away until you've made a pair out of something less fancy. -- Adele de Maisieres ----------------------------- Quot homines, tot sententiae. ----------------------------- _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 18:17:42 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51MHgQB012579 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:17:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51MGV3T091208 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:16:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51MGQ1v069739; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:16:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from wproxy.gmail.com (wproxy.gmail.com [64.233.184.195]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51MGCLg069510 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:16:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from msberard@gmail.com) Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 55so66020wri for ; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:16:07 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=IHjlXJ4UTRvHCXZ2i2nAgHpfvahPT+aEWvxHMBVqDtc6D70nQdotFlD2fhbYUY7nPLZE/NanQXt2T3w+OGwERRpM3e5YSF1WTtt8+ECYFLTtBRTxcpY7uXa2vChDw6dFjH2dC67lscvwoRNIwKjovkMOLv5F7xqJjmrdENr0SjY= Received: by 10.54.34.16 with SMTP id h16mr144528wrh; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.21.73 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:16:07 -0500 From: Onaree Berard To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <000001c566df$044b6fc0$3c542fd8@Sandra> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline References: <200506011838.OAA06261@atlas.concentric.com> <000001c566df$044b6fc0$3c542fd8@Sandra> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id j51MGCLg069510 Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: Costuming myths (just for fun...) X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On 6/1/05, Sandra Olsen wrote: > As for Abe Lincoln, he grew up in the new world, where food was much > more plentiful, and his family was reasonably well-off. Abe Lincoln is a bad example as he had a genetic condition. One year on his birthday the local newspaper compared his height to that of modern basketball players (this was a few years ago) and he was either as tall as the tallest or they could have have the rare pleasure of actually asking someone "How's the weather up there?" as he was just a little taller. I seem to remember a photo of him in a crowd and everyone can up to about his waist. Or was that a first hand description? Does this ring a bell for anyone? > > That said, I wonder why I can't ever find Victorian-era gloves that > aren't ridiculously tiny. Was diet so bad even among the kid-glove > wearing crowd? > I think that I've read (in that famous 'somewhere') that small hands were prized so a woman would wear gloves that were as small as possible -- even if it made her hands look like stuffed sausages because they were so tight. Onaree _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 18:17:51 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51MHoiT012585 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:17:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51MHDOA091320 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:17:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51MH9Jt070307; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:17:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cantva.canterbury.ac.nz (cantva.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.2.27]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51MGs5W070084 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:16:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ladyadele@paradise.net.nz) Received: from CONVERSION-A1.it.canterbury.ac.nz by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) id <01LOZD5ABN9S94GU7B@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:16:48 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Received: from [132.181.5.228] (itascad45a.it.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.5.228]) by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) with ESMTP id <01LOZD4TNFTM8WXCZP@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:16:26 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:17:44 +1200 From: Adele de Maisieres Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) In-reply-to: To: Historical Costume Message-id: <429E3408.9070007@paradise.net.nz> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) References: X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/905/Wed Jun 1 01:28:38 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Robin Netherton wrote: >And if that's not enough: I don't have a source for this, but I've heard >others comment on Elizabethan-era references to the giving of one's >busk-lace as an intimate gift from a woman to a man (perhaps suggesting >that once the lace is undone, the busk can be removed...). And it seems >that within the last few decades, there has been a custom among teenage >girls to clip off their bra bows to give to their boyfriends. > > Actually, the busk itself could be a gift from a sweetheart. There's a surviving example with the words "Think of me when this you see" carved on it. -- Adele de Maisieres ----------------------------- Quot homines, tot sententiae. ----------------------------- _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 18:29:57 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51MTvu4012770 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:29:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51MTEXt092949 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:29:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51MT9Kx079652; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:29:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp2.mc.surewest.net (smtp2.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.51]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j51MT61G079611 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:29:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joanmj@surewest.net) Received: (s3-9339); Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:28:54 -0700 Received: from unknown (64.30.124.24) by smtp2.mc.surewest.net (s3-smtpd/0.90-beta3) with SMTP; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:28:54 -0700 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20050601152728.00dbd300@pop.surewest.net> X-Sender: joanmj@pop.surewest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:28:51 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Joan Jurancich Subject: Wearing purple, was RE: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) In-Reply-To: References: <20756740.1117653829300.JavaMail.root@wamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-TST: smtp2.mc.surewest.net SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=64.30.124.24 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 02:32 PM 6/1/2005 -0500, you wrote: ><<<<"Only kings and queens could wear purple." (Demonstrably not true, but >because it's a convention at many Renaissance Faires, a lot of people >believe it.)>>>>>> > >Hmmmm. I've got this lovely simple patterned purple material...hmmmm. I be >going in Sept to a RenFest....hmmmm. Do I want to disturb the bovine fecal >matter? :) > >De If you are a ticket-buying visitor, wear whatever you want . Only those who actually work the Faires are covered by such conventions (and they differ from fair to fair). Joan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 18:31:33 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51MVWKi012806 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:31:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51MUu8o093143 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:30:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51MUucp080917; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:30:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp2.mc.surewest.net (smtp2.mc.surewest.net [66.60.130.51]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j51MUrIw080841 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:30:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from joanmj@surewest.net) Received: (s3-6748); Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:30:53 -0700 Received: from unknown (64.30.124.24) by smtp2.mc.surewest.net (s3-smtpd/0.90-beta3) with SMTP; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:30:52 -0700 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20050601152919.00db0350@pop.surewest.net> X-Sender: joanmj@pop.surewest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:30:49 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Joan Jurancich Subject: Re: [h-cost] Satin question In-Reply-To: <22479594.1117654151835.JavaMail.root@wamui-valley.atl.sa.e arthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-TST: smtp2.mc.surewest.net SNWK3 0.31-80 ip=64.30.124.24 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 12:29 PM 6/1/2005 -0700, you wrote: >Joan commented: > > >So silk satins > >are perfectly appropriate for Renaissance Faires, which are generally set > >in 16th century England. And we have inventories and other records, > >especially wills, listing satin. > >True: but _silk_ satin is expensive and hard to find, and modern synthetic >satins tend to be too lightweight, too slithery, and far too shiny to look >like their period equivalents. Not to mention the fact that they generally >don't "breathe" and so are rather uncomfortable to wear to summer events >(like renfaires). > >I've seen the wrong side of a heavier than usual synthetic satin used in >small amounts with some success, though. And apparently if you can find >somethng called "peau de soie", which isn't nearly as brilliantly shiny as >ordinary satin, that's a better match for the look of period satin. >Although as Joan will tell you, it snags very easily, right Joan? If I >remember correctly, you had a panel of it on one of your gowns that barely >lasted the season... > >____________________________________________________________ >0 Chris Laning >| >+ Davis, California >____________________________________________________________ Yep. I did a kirtle and gown combination, with the kirtle front in the satin. Snagged if you looked at it cross-wise. But it would be fine if used in an indoors situation. Joan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 18:49:45 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51MniPp013064 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:49:45 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51Mn3wa094793 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:49:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51Mm1Ft093027; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:49:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web53201.mail.yahoo.com (web53201.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.39.217]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j51MkvWk092362 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:47:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gythaofnorthumbria@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 85407 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jun 2005 22:46:52 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=ScYBm3fRZV2dBYd4iC7aKIyOK6vjv8vL8UrAVQ/2PE3pbaVfyE9BdD4jxZnSWorFwOHObZPX2/PQhV3zc3j0+pTkbqmUjvAqQJAf3J32nkGOT3qtg+Bz0voeOJ4XmK96gBLHfChTPbx0E0HwSdXZ79ciqoaKInR7BV4By5wtoCM= ; Message-ID: <20050601224652.85405.qmail@web53201.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.118.100.19] by web53201.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:46:52 PDT Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:46:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Gytha Stonegrinder Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <429E303E.5090008@paradise.net.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I just wanted to add 2 cents on these 2 topics... About the cloth... I suspect that the time period (and probably place) would matter a lot... I've been studying Viking era Danelaw/Greenland/Iceland and medieval Greenland and it appears that many, if not all, homes had a loom, though it was a hanging, weighted loom not a floor loom. Once the floor looms came into vogue weaving became more specialized and the looms more complex and thus more expensive. Also, woven cloth was used as a currency for trade and payment of services, so cloth was not just made at home even then. As to the pockets issue... I can say that in the book "Woven into the Earth" there are pictures of actual 12-13th century gowns with side pockets... some in the gore seam and some in the side seam. The author felt that much of the style on Greenland followed the style of Europe, so I hope that helps with the documentation! Gytha Adele de Maisieres wrote: snippets: >>"Peasants not only sewed, but spun and wove all their own clothing." (Demonstrably not true for most times and places; cloth and second-hand clothing seem to have been available and more or less affordable over much of Europe.) >> >> > >**Interesting. Are we thinking colonial and frontier U.S. instead of Europe? I'm hearing this one regularly, and sometimes from arts judges. I'd love to hear more about inexpensive cloth in period where the ladies of the house would buy their fabric to make their clothes. > > A loom would actually have been a _huge_ investment-- and as such, cloth was woven by professionals. >>"Built-in pockets in clothing are a modern invention." >> >> >**Oops - ignorance alert here. I've been going along with that one. Colonial U.S. had separate "pockets" like a belt pouch. Please, pretty please show me documentation of pockets in period. I'd love to show to our judges when I make something with pockets. I've would have claimed it as a creative touch or modern substitution. > > I think Janet Arnold's _Patterns of Fashion_ has a picture of a pair of Venetians with a pocket set into the side seam. This is _not_ to say that pockets on seperate bands didn't stay popular for at least another 300 years. -- Adele de Maisieres ----------------------------- Quot homines, tot sententiae. ----------------------------- _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel & more fun for the weekend. Check it out! _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 18:49:51 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51MnpTo013067 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:49:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51Mn37j094794 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:49:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51Mm2bi093035; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:49:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web53204.mail.yahoo.com (web53204.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.39.220]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j51Mkx3u092380 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:48:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gythaofnorthumbria@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 28001 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jun 2005 22:46:54 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=2o6n0CSFbEML5awYEjnZcTl6X9GdJQh4NBMwV4uEN7jcvRiMpPfAj1iaKUPqO9qKIqvePkg23lCM9A79bGD1RKY4VQdH1gl2aNr3knRZpkLwXj5ilDYPg8aEYKeoJ9XIIKcLDt5YST5kD8Jba3ipi1f3l9LTKyl8kj7qRBmqiD4= ; Message-ID: <20050601224654.27999.qmail@web53204.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.118.100.19] by web53204.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 15:46:54 PDT Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 15:46:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Gytha Stonegrinder Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <429E303E.5090008@paradise.net.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I just wanted to add 2 cents on these 2 topics... About the cloth... I suspect that the time period (and probably place) would matter a lot... I've been studying Viking era Danelaw/Greenland/Iceland and medieval Greenland and it appears that many, if not all, homes had a loom, though it was a hanging, weighted loom not a floor loom. Once the floor looms came into vogue weaving became more specialized and the looms more complex and thus more expensive. Also, woven cloth was used as a currency for trade and payment of services, so cloth was not just made at home even then. As to the pockets issue... I can say that in the book "Woven into the Earth" there are pictures of actual 12-13th century gowns with side pockets... some in the gore seam and some in the side seam. The author felt that much of the style on Greenland followed the style of Europe, so I hope that helps with the documentation! Gytha Adele de Maisieres wrote: snippets: >>"Peasants not only sewed, but spun and wove all their own clothing." (Demonstrably not true for most times and places; cloth and second-hand clothing seem to have been available and more or less affordable over much of Europe.) >> >> > >**Interesting. Are we thinking colonial and frontier U.S. instead of Europe? I'm hearing this one regularly, and sometimes from arts judges. I'd love to hear more about inexpensive cloth in period where the ladies of the house would buy their fabric to make their clothes. > > A loom would actually have been a _huge_ investment-- and as such, cloth was woven by professionals. >>"Built-in pockets in clothing are a modern invention." >> >> >**Oops - ignorance alert here. I've been going along with that one. Colonial U.S. had separate "pockets" like a belt pouch. Please, pretty please show me documentation of pockets in period. I'd love to show to our judges when I make something with pockets. I've would have claimed it as a creative touch or modern substitution. > > I think Janet Arnold's _Patterns of Fashion_ has a picture of a pair of Venetians with a pocket set into the side seam. This is _not_ to say that pockets on seperate bands didn't stay popular for at least another 300 years. -- Adele de Maisieres ----------------------------- Quot homines, tot sententiae. ----------------------------- _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 18:58:23 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51MwMDu013176 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:58:22 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51MvdO9095707 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:57:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51MvY90000374; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:57:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cantvc.canterbury.ac.nz (cantvc.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.2.36]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51MvSiw000293 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:57:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ladyadele@paradise.net.nz) Received: from CONVERSION-A1.it.canterbury.ac.nz by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) id <01LOZEKINATC94GU7B@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:57:20 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Received: from [132.181.5.228] (itascad45a.it.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.5.228]) by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) with ESMTP id <01LOZEKFHGNA8WXAO2@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:57:15 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:58:33 +1200 From: Adele de Maisieres Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) In-reply-to: <20050601224652.85405.qmail@web53201.mail.yahoo.com> To: Historical Costume Message-id: <429E3D99.4060402@paradise.net.nz> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) References: <20050601224652.85405.qmail@web53201.mail.yahoo.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Gytha Stonegrinder wrote: >I just wanted to add 2 cents on these 2 topics... About the cloth... I suspect that the time period (and probably place) would matter a lot... I've been studying Viking era Danelaw/Greenland/Iceland and medieval Greenland and it appears that many, if not all, homes had a loom, though it was a hanging, weighted loom not a floor loom. Once the floor looms came into vogue weaving became more specialized and the looms more complex and thus more expensive. Also, woven cloth was used as a currency for trade and payment of services, so cloth was not just made at home even then. > > Fair cop... I admit I was thinking primarily of 14th-15th century cloth production-- which was mostly professional. >As to the pockets issue... I can say that in the book "Woven into the Earth" there are pictures of actual 12-13th century gowns with side pockets... some in the gore seam and some in the side seam. The author felt that much of the style on Greenland followed the style of Europe, so I hope that helps with the documentation! > > Excellent-- I must have a look at that book. -- Adele de Maisieres ----------------------------- Quot homines, tot sententiae. ----------------------------- _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 19:00:55 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51N0sX7013216 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:00:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51N0D2g096053 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:00:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51N0BJC002332; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:00:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav16.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.88]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51N08cc002245 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:00:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from audreybmorin2@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:00:03 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.161.200 by BAY106-DAV16.phx.gbl with DAV; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 23:00:03 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [65.54.161.200] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] X-Sender: audreybmorin2@hotmail.com From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200506011401.j51E1Nit064067@net.indra.com> <4.3.1.2.20050601125258.0267d3f8@mail.frys.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:00:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Jun 2005 23:00:03.0433 (UTC) FILETIME=[A533ED90:01C566FD] X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > "18-inch waists were common." Someone pointed out to me that the average > head is something like 22 inches around. So if the photograph shows the > head larger than the waist, we're not looking at a photo of any 18-inch > waist. And pre-PhotoShop photo re-touching is pretty obvious in most > cases. And from what I heard, a lot of photos were retouched. Not to say that 22 inch waists didn't exist... but people tend to assume that EVERYONE tight-laced, which is far from the truth... _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 19:10:53 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51NArVY013322 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:10:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51NA9xH096979 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:10:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51NA7mr009242; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:10:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net (smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net [209.86.89.61]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51NA5u5009220 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:10:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from hpinto@mindspring.com) Received: from [4.155.57.166] (helo=HELENPINTO) by smtpauth01.mail.atl.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DdcLc-0001rh-Jp for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 19:10:05 -0400 Message-ID: <016d01c566ff$091b12b0$05000400@HELENPINTO> From: "Helen Pinto" To: "Historical Costume" References: <4.3.1.2.20050601123615.0273a648@mail.frys.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths , esp small dogs Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:09:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-ELNK-Trace: f3dec0b0682ec1505e89bb4777695beb69025943178dce0b3dc976cd69790d96222e091c12772df8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 4.155.57.166 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Re: small dogs for warmth Dogs have an average body heat of 101F to 102.5F- that's 3-4 degrees warmer than a human. Also, with their fur coats and inability to sweat anywhere except their pads, they do a much better job of conserving body heat than us humans. I used to love watching my mother kick the dog (a warlock Doberman) out of his spot by the stove. She'd lie down on it, wrapped in a blanket, and he'd come and lie down along her back. (Stretched out, he was longer than she was.) They'd do tea and PF Milano's and TV together. -Helen/Aidan _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 19:12:48 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51NCmNi013343 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:12:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51NCCLe097242 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:12:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51NCBR4010577; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:12:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pop06.mail.atl.earthlink.net (pop06.mail.atl.earthlink.net [207.69.200.40]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51NC7Yl010535 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:12:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from claning@igc.org) Received: from wamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.224.26]) by pop06.mail.atl.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DdcNa-0006JV-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 19:12:06 -0400 Message-ID: <30844104.1117667526570.JavaMail.root@wamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:12:06 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Chris Laning To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I wrote: >BTW, my favorite costume myth is one I can no longer locate the original of, which means it must be at least fifteen years since I saw it: that for warmth, medieval women frequently carried small furry animals around with them in the pockets and sleeves of their clothing.... for me at least, the mental images this produces are hilarious! Adele wrote: >I haven't heard that one before, but the mental images it produces are >_hilarious_. I just keep picturing two or three little beasts the size of hamsters, playing hide and seek.... running races, in one sleeve, out the other..... playing "king of the castle" on top of the headdress..... ____________________________________________________________ 0 Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 19:23:39 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51NNc5U013448 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:23:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51NLtB9098070 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:21:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51NLpeJ016273; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:21:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cantvc.canterbury.ac.nz (cantvc.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.2.36]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51NLl9O016236 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:21:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ladyadele@paradise.net.nz) Received: from CONVERSION-A1.it.canterbury.ac.nz by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) id <01LOZFEKXZCW94GU7B@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:21:39 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Received: from [132.181.5.228] (itascad45a.it.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.5.228]) by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) with ESMTP id <01LOZFEBQWN28WX4TB@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:21:21 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:22:39 +1200 From: Adele de Maisieres Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) In-reply-to: <30844104.1117667526570.JavaMail.root@wamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> To: Historical Costume Message-id: <429E433F.3090103@paradise.net.nz> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) References: <30844104.1117667526570.JavaMail.root@wamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Chris Laning wrote: >I wrote: > > >>BTW, my favorite costume myth is one I can no longer locate the original of, which means it must be at least fifteen years since I saw it: that for warmth, medieval women frequently carried small furry animals around with them in the pockets and sleeves of their clothing.... for me at least, the mental images this produces are hilarious! >> >> > >Adele wrote: > > >>I haven't heard that one before, but the mental images it produces are >>_hilarious_. >> >> > >I just keep picturing two or three little beasts the size of hamsters, playing hide and seek.... running races, in one sleeve, out the other..... playing "king of the castle" on top of the headdress..... > > Yup... also, some sort of mustelid shooting out of a sleeve and into a pocket opening, across the inside of the skirt... -- Adele de Maisieres ----------------------------- Quot homines, tot sententiae. ----------------------------- _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 19:23:52 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51NNq4x013451 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:23:52 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51NMfE7098169 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:22:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51NMedA016746; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:22:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm12.prodigy.net (ylpvm12-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.43]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51NMZDT016693 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:22:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from pimout6-ext.prodigy.net (pimout6-int.prodigy.net [207.115.4.22]) by ylpvm12.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j51NMX28030046 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:22:33 -0400 X-ORBL: [69.107.95.221] Received: from thelema.frys.com (adsl-69-107-95-221.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.95.221]) by pimout6-ext.prodigy.net (8.12.10 milter /8.12.10) with ESMTP id j51NMSul191596 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:22:34 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20050601161548.024eb360@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:16:54 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: busk lace (was Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) In-Reply-To: <429E3408.9070007@paradise.net.nz> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >>And if that's not enough: I don't have a source for this, but I've heard >>others comment on Elizabethan-era references to the giving of one's >>busk-lace as an intimate gift from a woman to a man (perhaps suggesting >>that once the lace is undone, the busk can be removed...). I heard that about the drawstring from trousers, as an intimate gift in the Middle East. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 19:23:55 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51NNtSC013454 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:23:55 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51NMdG3098163 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:22:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51NMcVx016720; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:22:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm12.prodigy.net (ylpvm12-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.43]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51NMZnM016689 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:22:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from pimout6-ext.prodigy.net (pimout6-int.prodigy.net [207.115.4.22]) by ylpvm12.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j51NMX28030008 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:22:33 -0400 X-ORBL: [69.107.95.221] Received: from thelema.frys.com (adsl-69-107-95-221.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.95.221]) by pimout6-ext.prodigy.net (8.12.10 milter /8.12.10) with ESMTP id j51NMSuj191596 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:22:34 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20050601161451.032a9780@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:15:24 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: glove leather (was Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) In-Reply-To: <429E33B0.3070605@paradise.net.nz> References: <20050601210138.M99418@alfalfapress.com> <20756740.1117653829300.JavaMail.root@wamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20050601210138.M99418@alfalfapress.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >>Obligatory costume content - I have a chunk 2' x 2' of soft white leather >>and am not sure what to use it for. I've thought gloves, but am not sure >>of my ability after one class. Any suggestions for something 16th C >>Venice or 6th C Francia? >>I _would_ go for glowes. But if you're not sure of your ability, fold it >>up nicely and put it away until you've made a pair out of something less fancy. Roll it, instead of folding it. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 19:31:46 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51NVkGW013555 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:31:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51NUtgQ099244 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:30:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51NUp1T021833; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:30:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm01.prodigy.net (ylpvm01-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.32]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51NUmVA021786 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:30:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from thelema.frys.com (adsl-69-107-95-221.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.95.221]) by ylpvm01.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j51NU3qb016213 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:30:04 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20050601162409.032b81d0@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:30:39 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) In-Reply-To: <200506011838.OAA06261@atlas.concentric.com> References: <200506011401.j51E1Nit064067@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >What are some of the myths/stereotypes of costuming you've had to deal with? What about the one claiming bugs got into tall hairstyles and lived there? (Not too far fetched, come to think of it, since the bugs could have been head lice.) I first heard this in the beehive-period early 1960s, along with the allegation that the bugs bored right into the owners head, unnoticed (which I didn't believe even then). I later heard the same story about those tall hairdos in the late 1700s (weevils going after the powder?), proving, at least, that it's an old myth. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 19:38:57 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51NcuBG013647 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:38:56 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51NMcFV098160 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:22:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51NMaNZ016706; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:22:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm12.prodigy.net (ylpvm12-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.43]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51NMYGA016688 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:22:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from pimout6-ext.prodigy.net (pimout6-int.prodigy.net [207.115.4.22]) by ylpvm12.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j51NMW28029978 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:22:32 -0400 X-ORBL: [69.107.95.221] Received: from thelema.frys.com (adsl-69-107-95-221.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.95.221]) by pimout6-ext.prodigy.net (8.12.10 milter /8.12.10) with ESMTP id j51NMSuh191596 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:22:33 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20050601161025.0329bbf8@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:13:11 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) In-Reply-To: <429E303E.5090008@paradise.net.nz> References: <200506012114.RAA16689@atlas.concentric.com> <200506012114.RAA16689@atlas.concentric.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >Maybe it's just that kid leather is prone to shrinkage? The stitching doesn't shrink, so that can't be it. Probably it's because "back then" smaller people, i.e. children, commonly wore gloves. My guess is that we're seeing children's gloves, or at least adult style gloves worn by teens and pre-teens. >I think Janet Arnold's _Patterns of Fashion_ has a picture of a pair of >Venetians with a pocket set into the side seam. This is _not_ to say that >pockets on seperate bands didn't stay popular for at least another 300 years. One of the doublets of the Sture family has a pocket under a waist-skirt part. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 19:39:20 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51NdKi9013660 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:39:20 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51NcZP9000331 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:38:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51NcYw8026314; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:38:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cantva.canterbury.ac.nz (cantva.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.2.27]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51NcVOp026282 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:38:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ladyadele@paradise.net.nz) Received: from CONVERSION-A1.it.canterbury.ac.nz by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) id <01LOZG0FPK2O94GU7B@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:38:25 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Received: from [132.181.5.228] by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) with ESMTP id <01LOZG0EOMUA8WXCP1@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:38:23 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:38:26 +1200 From: Adele de Maisieres Subject: Re: busk lace (was Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) In-reply-to: <4.3.1.2.20050601161548.024eb360@mail.frys.com> To: Historical Costume Message-id: <429E46F2.6050202@paradise.net.nz> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) References: <4.3.1.2.20050601161548.024eb360@mail.frys.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote: > >>> And if that's not enough: I don't have a source for this, but I've >>> heard >>> others comment on Elizabethan-era references to the giving of one's >>> busk-lace as an intimate gift from a woman to a man (perhaps suggesting >>> that once the lace is undone, the busk can be removed...). >> > > I heard that about the drawstring from trousers, as an intimate gift > in the Middle East. I think I've heard that one too... and I think it's not so much a string as a small sash. It does go throught the trouser waist casing, but it's about 8" wide, made of very light fabric, and has heavily embroidered ends. -- Adele de Maisieres ----------------------------- Quot homines, tot sententiae. ----------------------------- _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 19:41:42 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51NffmT013711 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:41:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51NeQqJ000505 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:40:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51NeO4R027382; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:40:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cantva.canterbury.ac.nz (cantva.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.2.27]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51Ne6Vx027163 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:40:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ladyadele@paradise.net.nz) Received: from CONVERSION-A1.it.canterbury.ac.nz by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) id <01LOZG2CZZ0W94GU7B@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:39:57 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Received: from [132.181.5.228] by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) with ESMTP id <01LOZG2BMBDG8WX56H@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:39:56 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 11:39:58 +1200 From: Adele de Maisieres Subject: Re: glove leather (was Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) In-reply-to: <4.3.1.2.20050601161451.032a9780@mail.frys.com> To: Historical Costume Message-id: <429E474E.7030503@paradise.net.nz> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) References: <20050601210138.M99418@alfalfapress.com> <20756740.1117653829300.JavaMail.root@wamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20050601210138.M99418@alfalfapress.com> <4.3.1.2.20050601161451.032a9780@mail.frys.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote: > >>> Obligatory costume content - I have a chunk 2' x 2' of soft white >>> leather and am not sure what to use it for. I've thought gloves, >>> but am not sure of my ability after one class. Any suggestions for >>> something 16th C Venice or 6th C Francia? >> > >>> I _would_ go for glowes. But if you're not sure of your ability, >>> fold it up nicely and put it away until you've made a pair out of >>> something less fancy. >> > > Roll it, instead of folding it. Yes, good point... in fact, roll it up with some acid free tissue paper. -- Adele de Maisieres ----------------------------- Quot homines, tot sententiae. ----------------------------- _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 19:59:06 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j51Nx5bM014050 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:59:05 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j51NwJbd001809 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:58:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j51NwHkE037208; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:58:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web51302.mail.yahoo.com (web51302.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.38.168]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j51NwE6J037139 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 17:58:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from elvestoorder@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 36028 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Jun 2005 23:58:09 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=f2+nZq7bKlWhoQGyWb7xP2alyzxsvbH6Rlz55oJeAghqjbVihUaf/XpHoxcKcj/lbNeI5pPQZ5AZ7qxEqGSJnkFprZ6W9PF4xC2kfWx5bNDjyUnERDRYvyUehg2ZBHYZQty649d8W6QrBeXrBLELIh4RfhV83hNEzQIiMlFT3sg= ; Message-ID: <20050601235809.36026.qmail@web51302.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [69.182.165.183] by web51302.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:58:09 PDT Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:58:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Ann Catelli To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <20050601220551.85005.qmail@web52810.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Gloves?? X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Intact gloves--weren't gloves as disposable as nylon stockings? They got dirty very fast, and L.M. Alcott makes it a point to show how cleaned gloves weren't best wear any more, if you could even get them clean-ish. Nice thin leather that you'd already gotten wear out of is useful for a lot of things, and 'free'. Ann in CT > That said, I wonder why I can't ever find > Victorian-era gloves that aren't ridiculously tiny. > Was diet so bad even among the kid-glove wearing crowd? __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 20:44:27 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j520iRs0014952 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:44:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j520hKHx005109 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:43:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j520hHei059185; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:43:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j520h2U9059008 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:43:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j5222n5V027762 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:02:54 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:42:51 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.7 References: <200506011838.OAA06261@atlas.concentric.com> <429E2C45.7080708@paradise.net.nz> In-Reply-To: <429E2C45.7080708@paradise.net.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506012042.51445.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wednesday 01 June 2005 5:44 pm, Adele de Maisieres wrote: [snip] > It depends what you mean. It's probably safest to say that the heights > of _lower_class people have increased a good deal, but those of upper > class people by much less. A friend of mine is interested in 19th > century militaria and says that many of the jackets he's found have been > too small for him-- and he's only 5'7" and slim. Heights are determined > by a combination of genetics and diet. And a single example doesn't > prove anything about averages-- Lincoln was considered a tall man while > he was alive. Exactly. As Oliver Wendell Holmes (allegedly) said, "all generalizations are no good, including this one." Henry VIII of England was apparently around 6 feet 2 inches tall (we have full suits of armor he wore to help confirm it). On the other hand, I've seen Horatio Nelson's uniform coat in the Greenwich Naval Museum, and it's tiny (i.e., I could not fit into it, and I'm only 5 feet 1 inch tall, 130 pounds). What would tell us more is how far from the norm of their respective times Henry and Horatio were. (There's a term in statistics for such a figure, but I forget what that term is.) -- Cathy Raymond "So what if the universe is a pointless mass of hydrogen refuse powered by entropy. I'm spreading ketchup on a rubber duck, and after that I'm going to brush its teeth. So there."-- Rob Landley _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 20:55:46 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j520tjiK015183 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:55:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j520sQtK005995 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:54:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j520sP25064907; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:54:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from abraxis.com (mail.abraxis.com [216.47.64.210]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j520ruAZ064703 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:54:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sandraleigh@abraxis.com) Received: from mail.abraxis.com [216.47.64.210] by abraxis.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-8.12) id A8A32B00084; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:53:55 -0400 Received: from Sandra ([216.47.84.32]) by mail.abraxis.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:53:55 -0400 From: "Sandra Olsen" To: "'Historical Costume'" Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: Costuming myths (just for fun...) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:53:58 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c5670d$8fefcb60$20542fd8@Sandra> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jun 2005 00:53:55.0806 (UTC) FILETIME=[8D9D4FE0:01C5670D] X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Small hands may indeed be prized, but stuffing ones hands into child-sized gloves seems a little extreme in pursuit of fashion, rather like tightlacing. Surely married, settled women might give in and admit their real size instead of blowing the seams out of every pair. I have very long thin hands and I'm used to fingers on gloves being too short, but surely I can't be so much of an ogre that not even the tips of my fingers will fit! Maybe there's an expert out there who has yet to weigh in? > > That said, I wonder why I can't ever find Victorian-era gloves that > aren't ridiculously tiny. Was diet so bad even among the kid-glove > wearing crowd? > I think that I've read (in that famous 'somewhere') that small hands were prized so a woman would wear gloves that were as small as possible -- even if it made her hands look like stuffed sausages because they were so tight. Onaree _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 20:56:44 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j520uiBl015196 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:56:44 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j520tKcv006075 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:55:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j520tKlY065385; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:55:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from email.accessus.net (email.accessus.net [209.145.128.5]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j520tI3K065296 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:55:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from axejudge@accessus.net) X-AUS-Server: EMAIL Received: from [207.206.137.42] (HELO accessus.net) by email.accessus.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.8) with ESMTP id 316035581 for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 19:55:11 -0500 Message-ID: <429E598C.8080906@accessus.net> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 19:57:48 -0500 From: Karen Heim User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC; en-US; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020318 Netscape6/6.2.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Costuming myths (just for fun...) References: <200506011838.OAA06261@atlas.concentric.com> <000001c566df$044b6fc0$3c542fd8@Sandra> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This is one of the many reasons I like doing historical outfits. My usual joke is that it's hard for me to find gloves that don't have snowmen knitted on the back, because my hands are so small. I love finding gloves at estate sales; most people can't wear them. Even as small as they are, usually the little finger is too long. Karen Onaree Berard wrote: >>That said, I wonder why I can't ever find Victorian-era gloves that >>aren't ridiculously tiny. Was diet so bad even among the kid-glove >>wearing crowd? >> > >I think that I've read (in that famous 'somewhere') that small hands >were prized so a woman would wear gloves that were as small as >possible -- even if it made her hands look like stuffed sausages >because they were so tight. > >Onaree > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 21:09:57 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j5219vHi015426 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:09:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j521998V007532 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:09:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52197hq073790; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:09:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay106-dav15.bay106.hotmail.com [65.54.161.87]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52196Lg073738 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:09:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from audreybmorin2@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 18:09:00 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.161.200 by BAY106-DAV15.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 01:09:00 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [65.54.161.200] X-Originating-Email: [audreybmorin2@hotmail.com] X-Sender: audreybmorin2@hotmail.com From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" To: "Historical Costume" References: <200506011838.OAA06261@atlas.concentric.com> <000001c566df$044b6fc0$3c542fd8@Sandra> <429E598C.8080906@accessus.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Costuming myths (just for fun...) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:08:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jun 2005 01:09:00.0801 (UTC) FILETIME=[A9089710:01C5670F] X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > This is one of the many reasons I like doing historical outfits. My usual > joke is that it's hard for me to find gloves that don't have snowmen > knitted on the back, because my hands are so small. I love finding gloves > at estate sales; most people can't wear them. Even as small as they are, > usually the little finger is too long. > > Karen This I can relate with. I can usually manage to find small enough gloves, just barely small enough, that is. But for me, the fingers are usually too short. Children's gloves usually fit around the hand but are WAY too short for me. The smallest size of adult gloves will sometimes fit me. Actually... they fit me when there's tons of size small left on the rack because they're too small for everybody else :-) What I still haven't found is a suitable archery glove. I think I'll give up and just buy a pair of second-hand full gloves, and shoot with that. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 21:18:10 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j521IA15015612 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:18:10 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j521HKsh008209 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:17:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j521HImI077794; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:17:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j521H5Io077667 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:17:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j522avOI028295 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:36:57 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:16:59 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.7 References: <30844104.1117667526570.JavaMail.root@wamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <30844104.1117667526570.JavaMail.root@wamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506012116.59227.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wednesday 01 June 2005 7:12 pm, Chris Laning wrote: [snip] > I just keep picturing two or three little beasts the size of hamsters, > playing hide and seek.... running races, in one sleeve, out the other..... > playing "king of the castle" on top of the headdress..... I suspect, however, that they really mean small lap dogs (such as the dogs depicted in the January image in the Tres Riches Heures). I doubt women wore them in their clothing, deep sleeves or no. On the other hand, I'm inclined to believe what I have heard about noble ladies incurring the displeasure of priests by taking them to church with them on cold winter mornings. -- Cathy Raymond "So what if the universe is a pointless mass of hydrogen refuse powered by entropy. I'm spreading ketchup on a rubber duck, and after that I'm going to brush its teeth. So there."-- Rob Landley _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 21:21:40 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j521Le3A015711 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:21:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j521KVAZ008572 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:20:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j521KVLr079508; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:20:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j521KItR079330 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:20:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j522eAfp028360 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:40:10 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:20:12 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.7 References: <20756740.1117653829300.JavaMail.root@wamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <429E1067.4090202@reddawn.net> In-Reply-To: <429E1067.4090202@reddawn.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506012120.12320.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wednesday 01 June 2005 3:45 pm, Dawn wrote: [snip] > A little more looking and I found that brassieres and corsets evolved > concurrently through the end of the 19th century. The corset slid down > and turned into more of what we now think of as a control-top garter. > I've seen vintage ads for "bra and corset" sets. The bra was always a > separate garment, supported by straps, where the corset, when it > supported the bust, relied on boning that pushed up from the torso. Really? I don't know of any evidence for a support garment remotely like the brassiere before the late 19-teens--early 1920s. What source do you have in mind? -- Cathy Raymond "So what if the universe is a pointless mass of hydrogen refuse powered by entropy. I'm spreading ketchup on a rubber duck, and after that I'm going to brush its teeth. So there."-- Rob Landley _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 21:23:28 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j521NR8a015749 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:23:27 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j521MmRD008733 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:22:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j521MlLU080608; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:22:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cantva.canterbury.ac.nz (cantva.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.2.27]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j521MZ7Q080496 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:22:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ladyadele@paradise.net.nz) Received: from CONVERSION-A1.it.canterbury.ac.nz by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) id <01LOZJMJ950W95O6KY@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 13:22:30 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Received: from [132.181.5.228] (itascad45a.it.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.5.228]) by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) with ESMTP id <01LOZJMIH43I8WXFXK@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 13:22:30 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 13:23:48 +1200 From: Adele de Maisieres Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) In-reply-to: <200506012116.59227.cathy@thyrsus.com> To: Historical Costume Message-id: <429E5FA4.2050306@paradise.net.nz> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) References: <30844104.1117667526570.JavaMail.root@wamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <200506012116.59227.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: >On Wednesday 01 June 2005 7:12 pm, Chris Laning wrote: >[snip] > > >>I just keep picturing two or three little beasts the size of hamsters, >>playing hide and seek.... running races, in one sleeve, out the other..... >>playing "king of the castle" on top of the headdress..... >> >> > > > >I suspect, however, that they really mean small lap dogs (such as the dogs >depicted in the January image in the Tres Riches Heures). I doubt women >wore them in their clothing, deep sleeves or no. On the other hand, I'm >inclined to believe what I have heard about noble ladies incurring the >displeasure of priests by taking them to church with them on cold winter >mornings. > > Kind of a late-medieval Paris Hilton... ugh! -- Adele de Maisieres ----------------------------- Quot homines, tot sententiae. ----------------------------- _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 21:24:39 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j521OdF9015765 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:24:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j521Nv23008826 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:23:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j521Nu52081190; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:23:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rastaban.dandy.net (rastaban.dandy.net [209.128.224.29]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j521NSET080936 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:23:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from mikes@dandy.net) Received: from [209.128.242.236] (acty1236.dialup.dandy.net [209.128.242.236]) by rastaban.dandy.net (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j521NQxW029811 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:23:27 -0400 Message-ID: <429E5F8D.8020105@dandy.net> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 21:23:25 -0400 From: michael tartaglio User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) References: <200506012114.RAA16689@atlas.concentric.com> In-Reply-To: <200506012114.RAA16689@atlas.concentric.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >**That's tiny for adult males. Where were they born? France? > > > >No. Corsica. They were all named Bonaparte, and they all wanted to conquer the world....Just kidding, I couldn't resist, Mike T. > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 21:37:25 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j521bJP8016053 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:37:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j521aTt9009873 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:36:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j521aSZS087686; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:36:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j521aCcs087524 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:36:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j522u49U028645 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:56:05 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:36:06 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.7 References: <30844104.1117667526570.JavaMail.root@wamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <200506012116.59227.cathy@thyrsus.com> <429E5FA4.2050306@paradise.net.nz> In-Reply-To: <429E5FA4.2050306@paradise.net.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506012136.07022.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wednesday 01 June 2005 9:23 pm, Adele de Maisieres wrote: > Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: [snip] > >I suspect, however, that they really mean small lap dogs (such as the dogs > >depicted in the January image in the Tres Riches Heures). I doubt women > >wore them in their clothing, deep sleeves or no. On the other hand, I'm > >inclined to believe what I have heard about noble ladies incurring the > >displeasure of priests by taking them to church with them on cold winter > >mornings. > > Kind of a late-medieval Paris Hilton... ugh! Human nature hasn't changed--I'm sure there've been Paris H. clones in every generation since Adam and Eve. :-) -- Cathy Raymond "So what if the universe is a pointless mass of hydrogen refuse powered by entropy. I'm spreading ketchup on a rubber duck, and after that I'm going to brush its teeth. So there."-- Rob Landley _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 21:39:47 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j521dlXu016100 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:39:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j521d2DX010071 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:39:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j521d1b7089004; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:39:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.floodcity.net (mail.floodcity.net [198.93.208.40]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j521cwkn088974 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:38:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from basyefelton@floodcity.net) Received: from webmail.floodcity.net ([198.93.208.62]:53728 helo=floodcity.net) by mail.floodcity.net with smtp id 1Ddefh-0001kw-5B for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 21:38:57 -0400 Received: from 198.93.211.102 (FloodCity WebMail authenticated user basyefelton@floodcity.net) by webmail.floodcity.net with HTTP; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:39:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <2974.198.93.211.102.1117676342.squirrel@webmail.floodcity.net> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:39:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) From: To: X-SentVia: FloodCity Internet X-Originating-IP: 198.93.211.102 X-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040913 Firefox/0.10 In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20050601123615.0273a648@mail.frys.com> References: <20756740.1117653829300.JavaMail.root@wamui-valley.atl.sa.e <4.3.1.2.20050601123615.0273a648@mail.frys.com> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: FloodCity WebMail (version 1.2.7) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > The closest I have heard to that is that small dogs, besides being > amusing, were warmer than people-body-temperature. And Eskimos do > sleep next to dogs on cold nights (or is it the dogs choosing to sleep > next to the people?). > > Only if they are out away from home at night. If they are home the eskimo sleeps in his home and the dogs outside in the snow or possibly dog houses. Unless they have taken to keeping pet dogs now. Now in our house the dog chooses to sleep with one of the humans if she is cold, or on our bedroom floor if she is not. LOL Kitty _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 21:44:33 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j521iWqT016218 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:44:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j521hhdK010760 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:43:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j521hfpg091564; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:43:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cantva.canterbury.ac.nz (cantva.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.2.27]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j521hbML091540 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:43:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ladyadele@paradise.net.nz) Received: from CONVERSION-A1.it.canterbury.ac.nz by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) id <01LOZKDKMK808Y8L15@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 13:43:32 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Received: from [132.181.5.228] (itascad45a.it.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.5.228]) by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) with ESMTP id <01LOZKDECD2M8WXB6Y@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 13:43:23 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 13:44:41 +1200 From: Adele de Maisieres Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) In-reply-to: <200506012120.12320.cathy@thyrsus.com> To: Historical Costume Message-id: <429E6489.20008@paradise.net.nz> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) References: <20756740.1117653829300.JavaMail.root@wamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <429E1067.4090202@reddawn.net> <200506012120.12320.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: >On Wednesday 01 June 2005 3:45 pm, Dawn wrote: >[snip] > > > >>A little more looking and I found that brassieres and corsets evolved >>concurrently through the end of the 19th century. The corset slid down >>and turned into more of what we now think of as a control-top garter. >>I've seen vintage ads for "bra and corset" sets. The bra was always a >>separate garment, supported by straps, where the corset, when it >>supported the bust, relied on boning that pushed up from the torso. >> >> > >Really? I don't know of any evidence for a support garment remotely like the >brassiere before the late 19-teens--early 1920s. What source do you have in >mind? > > > > In 1889 Herminie Cadolle of France invented a two-peice undergarment set called /le bien-ętre/ (the wellbeing) consisting of a corset for the waist and hips and an upper half supporting the breasts by means of shoulder straps. By 1905 the upper half was being sold separately as a *soutien-gorge* (breast support), which is still the term used fro bras in France. In 1893, Marie Tucek patented the “Breast Supporter” – similar to a modern bra that in that it supported the breasts in pockets of fabric. In America, Mary Phelps Jacob was granted the first U.S. patent for the brassiere, in 1913. Her invention is most widely recognized as the predecessor to the modern bra. She sold the patent to the Warner Brothers Corset Company. -- Adele de Maisieres ----------------------------- Quot homines, tot sententiae. ----------------------------- _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 21:48:07 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j521m7Sf016280 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:48:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j521lPup011053 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:47:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j521lOQT093488; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:47:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j521lKmh093418 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 19:47:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net) Received: from 204.127.197.111 (unknown[204.127.197.129](misconfigured sender)) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <20050602014715015009f5d3e>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 01:47:15 +0000 Received: from [67.160.21.223] by 204.127.197.111; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 01:47:13 +0000 From: elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 01:47:13 +0000 Message-Id: <060220050147.18586.429E65210000DE420000489A22069984990809070E029D0E0A0809079BA101A10E020A040A@comcast.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Dec 17 2004) X-Authenticated-Sender: ZWxlbmFfb190aWdoZWFybmFpZ2hAY29tY2FzdC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hmmm, I've got to share this: Back in my younger days...say around 1978, I was sitting in church and the lady in the seat in front of me had an elaborately teased and hairsprayed like a rock up do. Lo and behond I saw a spider, leisurely wandering through the stiffened mass of hair. I gingerly took my crochet hook, enticed it out of the little nest and promptly stomped on it. She gave me the dirtiest look and didn't believe me when I explained what had happened. But I promise you it was true! I do not like spiders anywhere in my immediate vicinty, and thus the intruder had to go, even though it was on someone else's head! -- Slan go foill Elena ÓTighearnaigh Átha An Ri Emer's Needle Wares -------------- Original message -------------- > > >What are some of the myths/stereotypes of costuming you've had to deal with? > > What about the one claiming bugs got into tall hairstyles and lived > there? (Not too far fetched, come to think of it, since the bugs could > have been head lice.) I first heard this in the beehive-period early > 1960s, along with the allegation that the bugs bored right into the owners > head, unnoticed (which I didn't believe even then). I later heard the same > story about those tall hairdos in the late 1700s (weevils going after the > powder?), proving, at least, that it's an old myth. > > CarolynKayta Barrows > dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian > www.FunStuft.com > > //// \\\ > ////-@@\\\ > (((( 7 ))) > ((( <> )))) > ) (((((( > /----\ /---\)) > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 22:46:21 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j522kKKm017317 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:46:21 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j522ix76015236 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:44:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j522ijkL022429; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:44:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j522iSgG022254 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:44:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j5244LPF029949 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:04:21 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:44:22 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.7 References: <20756740.1117653829300.JavaMail.root@wamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <200506012120.12320.cathy@thyrsus.com> <429E6489.20008@paradise.net.nz> In-Reply-To: <429E6489.20008@paradise.net.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506012244.22637.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id j522iSgG022254 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wednesday 01 June 2005 9:44 pm, Adele de Maisieres wrote: > Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: [snip ] > >Really? I don't know of any evidence for a support garment remotely like > > the brassiere before the late 19-teens--early 1920s. What source do you > > have in mind? > > In 1889 Herminie Cadolle of France invented a two-peice undergarment set > called /le bien-ętre/ (the wellbeing) consisting of a corset for the > waist and hips and an upper half supporting the breasts by means of > shoulder straps. By 1905 the upper half was being sold separately as a > *soutien-gorge* (breast support), which is still the term used fro bras > in France. Yes, "soutien-gorge" is still the term used. I was aware of Ms. Jacob's invention but not Mlle. (Mme.?) Cadolle's. Do you know of anywhere I could find an image of it on line? > > In 1893, Marie Tucek patented the “Breast Supporter” – similar to a > modern bra that in that it supported the breasts in pockets of fabric. Another image I should track down. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, though, considering how many designs were patented for crinolines and bustles. Thank you so much for the information! -- Cathy Raymond "So what if the universe is a pointless mass of hydrogen refuse powered by entropy. I'm spreading ketchup on a rubber duck, and after that I'm going to brush its teeth. So there."-- Rob Landley _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 22:46:57 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j522ku9x017321 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:46:57 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j522jrYR015373 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:45:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j522jqPN023233; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:45:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j522jdHP022968 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:45:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j5245VJf029986 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:05:32 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:45:33 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.7 References: <060220050147.18586.429E65210000DE420000489A22069984990809070E029D0E0A0809079BA101A10E020A040A@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <060220050147.18586.429E65210000DE420000489A22069984990809070E029D0E0A0809079BA101A10E020A040A@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506012245.33282.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wednesday 01 June 2005 9:47 pm, elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net wrote: > Hmmm, I've got to share this: Back in my younger days...say around 1978, I > was sitting in church and the lady in the seat in front of me had an > elaborately teased and hairsprayed like a rock up do. Lo and behond I saw > a spider, leisurely wandering through the stiffened mass of hair. I > gingerly took my crochet hook, enticed it out of the little nest and > promptly stomped on it. > > She gave me the dirtiest look and didn't believe me when I explained what > had happened. But I promise you it was true! I do not like spiders > anywhere in my immediate vicinty, and thus the intruder had to go, even > though it was on someone else's head! Some of the reports of the wildlife harbored by the high hairstyles of the 1780s are similar. -- Cathy Raymond "So what if the universe is a pointless mass of hydrogen refuse powered by entropy. I'm spreading ketchup on a rubber duck, and after that I'm going to brush its teeth. So there."-- Rob Landley _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 22:56:43 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j522ugHi017483 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:56:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j522tPew016235 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:55:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j522tO6o027883; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:55:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm12.prodigy.net (ylpvm12-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.43]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j522tM1i027859 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:55:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from pimout5-ext.prodigy.net (pimout5-int.prodigy.net [207.115.4.21]) by ylpvm12.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j522tK28015560 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:55:20 -0400 X-ORBL: [69.107.95.221] Received: from thelema.frys.com (adsl-69-107-95-221.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.95.221]) by pimout5-ext.prodigy.net (8.12.10 milter /8.12.10) with ESMTP id j522tGdJ284478 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:55:20 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20050601195510.024ef608@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 19:55:12 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >What are some of the myths/stereotypes of costuming you've had to deal with? What about the one claiming bugs got into tall hairstyles and lived there? (Not too far fetched, come to think of it, since the bugs could have been head lice.) I first heard this in the beehive-period early 1960s, along with the allegation that the bugs bored right into the owners head, unnoticed (which I didn't believe even then). I later heard the same story about those tall hairdos in the late 1700s (weevils going after the powder?), proving, at least, that it's an old myth. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 23:11:02 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j523B2sK017714 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:11:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j523A4Ir017319 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:10:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j523A3Ep035213; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:10:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5239oa2035044 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:10:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j524ThN8030423 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:29:43 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:09:43 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.7 References: <20050601224652.85405.qmail@web53201.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050601224652.85405.qmail@web53201.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506012309.44166.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wednesday 01 June 2005 6:46 pm, Gytha Stonegrinder wrote: [snip] > I can say that in the book "Woven into the Earth" > there are pictures of actual 12-13th century gowns with side pockets... > some in the gore seam and some in the side seam. [rest snipped] Where? I have "Woven Into the Earth" and I don't see anything that demonstrates the existence of modern, integral-to-the-garment pockets. The discussion on p. 94 does refer to "pocket slits", but that could refer to slits made so that pouches or pockets on a string (such as the 18th c ones) worn underneath could be easily reached. -- Cathy Raymond "So what if the universe is a pointless mass of hydrogen refuse powered by entropy. I'm spreading ketchup on a rubber duck, and after that I'm going to brush its teeth. So there."-- Rob Landley _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 23:13:01 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j523D1FN017739 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:13:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j523C6lm017449 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:12:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j523C5l1036197; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:12:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j523C0Si036110 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:12:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cley@juno.com) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by m08.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABBK68HJAYZ3F7A for (sender ); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:11:36 -0700 (PDT) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: QHEuP/IhRKXTJ0EJwxwhguXOmXYkpvylX0qiUO0tCo4= Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KUF7J39J; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:11:07 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:05:22 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Message-ID: <20050601.201014.860.0.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2,4-8,10-11 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley X-ContentStamp: 3:5:2805830406 X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 127.0.0.1|localhost|m08.lax.untd.com|cley@juno.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > I suspect, however, that they really mean small lap dogs (such as > the dogs depicted in the January image in the Tres Riches Heures). I doubt > women wore them in their clothing, deep sleeves or no. On the other hand, > I'm inclined to believe what I have heard about noble ladies incurring > the displeasure of priests by taking them to church with them on cold > winter mornings. Why wouldn't you? Nuns did. More than one papal bull was directed at the good sisters for having pets and then bringing them to church. Arlys _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 23:27:02 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j523R2GE017962 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:27:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j523QHpm018621 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:26:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j523QFKM043584; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:26:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web32913.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32913.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.206.60]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j523QDLl043535 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:26:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from celticredhead2002@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 44356 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Jun 2005 03:26:08 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Ygh8Vfc0Dj5VFk0PX+Aua8vv0nBi5KZl9SG1I7tyXgMLbzhhLwubvpY7oAgvvegByxr6Gqb840VrZ+8V5sApVzuvB51isb58zlt2X5DfEDoHfm0nY4P7TGbyIu7pd5v1PciB+42uwjUgxENhcBkVFuEIfvOmcU2NfzVtTdrdQns= ; Message-ID: <20050602032608.44354.qmail@web32913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [71.103.123.225] by web32913.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:26:08 PDT Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:26:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Melody Watts Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <20756740.1117653829300.JavaMail.root@wamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Ah ....but there so began the myth of "Is that a weasal in your pocket,or are you just happy to see me?" ;~> --- Chris Laning wrote: > Costuming myths? Let's see.... > >> > BTW, my favorite costume myth is one I can no longer > locate the original of, which means it must be at > least fifteen years since I saw it: that for warmth, > medieval women frequently carried small furry > animals around with them in the pockets and sleeves > of their clothing.... for me at least, the mental > images this produces are hilarious! > > ____________________________________________________________ > 0 Chris Laning > | > + Davis, California > _ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 23:27:47 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j523Rl8e017981 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:27:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j523Qw9E018725 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:26:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j523QwjK043937; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:26:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from cantva.canterbury.ac.nz (cantva.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.2.27]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j523QqUc043884 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:26:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ladyadele@paradise.net.nz) Received: from CONVERSION-A1.it.canterbury.ac.nz by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) id <01LOZNYNA5U88WX8UH@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 15:26:48 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Received: from [132.181.5.228] (itascad45a.it.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.5.228]) by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.2-X27 #30791) with ESMTP id <01LOZNYMVAVS8WXAQH@it.canterbury.ac.nz> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 15:26:48 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 15:28:06 +1200 From: Adele de Maisieres Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) In-reply-to: <200506012244.22637.cathy@thyrsus.com> To: Historical Costume Message-id: <429E7CC6.7070909@paradise.net.nz> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) References: <20756740.1117653829300.JavaMail.root@wamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <200506012120.12320.cathy@thyrsus.com> <429E6489.20008@paradise.net.nz> <200506012244.22637.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: >>In 1889 Herminie Cadolle of France invented a two-peice undergarment set >>called /le bien-ętre/ (the wellbeing) consisting of a corset for the >>waist and hips and an upper half supporting the breasts by means of >>shoulder straps. By 1905 the upper half was being sold separately as a >>*soutien-gorge* (breast support), which is still the term used fro bras >>in France. >> >> > >Yes, "soutien-gorge" is still the term used. > >I was aware of Ms. Jacob's invention but not Mlle. (Mme.?) Cadolle's. Do you >know of anywhere I could find an image of it on line? > > Sadly, no... I did have a quick hunt around, but no luck. -- Adele de Maisieres ----------------------------- Quot homines, tot sententiae. ----------------------------- _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 23:36:16 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j523aGAB018073 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:36:16 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j523ZMGq019320 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:35:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j523ZLpa047921; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:35:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j523Z7r8047751 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:35:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j524t0Ds030870 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:55:01 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:35:01 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.7 References: <20756740.1117653829300.JavaMail.root@wamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <200506012244.22637.cathy@thyrsus.com> <429E7CC6.7070909@paradise.net.nz> In-Reply-To: <429E7CC6.7070909@paradise.net.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506012335.02068.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id j523Z7r8047751 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wednesday 01 June 2005 11:28 pm, Adele de Maisieres wrote: > Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: > >>In 1889 Herminie Cadolle of France invented a two-peice undergarment set > >>called /le bien-ętre/ (the wellbeing) consisting of a corset for the > >>waist and hips and an upper half supporting the breasts by means of > >>shoulder straps. By 1905 the upper half was being sold separately as a > >>*soutien-gorge* (breast support), which is still the term used fro bras > >>in France. > > > >Yes, "soutien-gorge" is still the term used. > > > >I was aware of Ms. Jacob's invention but not Mlle. (Mme.?) Cadolle's. Do > > you know of anywhere I could find an image of it on line? > > Sadly, no... I did have a quick hunt around, but no luck. Thanks. I'll troll a bit for it myself and if I get lucky, I'll post the result. -- Cathy Raymond "So what if the universe is a pointless mass of hydrogen refuse powered by entropy. I'm spreading ketchup on a rubber duck, and after that I'm going to brush its teeth. So there."-- Rob Landley _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 23:43:38 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j523hbR2018186 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:43:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j523gmAQ019880 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:42:48 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j523glbj051484; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:42:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.floodcity.net (mail.floodcity.net [198.93.208.40]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j523gh5s051451 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:42:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from basyefelton@floodcity.net) Received: from webmail.floodcity.net ([198.93.208.62]:57989 helo=floodcity.net) by mail.floodcity.net with smtp id 1DdgbW-0004Mq-Nl for h-costume@indra.com; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 23:42:47 -0400 Received: from 198.93.211.102 (FloodCity WebMail authenticated user basyefelton@floodcity.net) by webmail.floodcity.net with HTTP; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:42:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3215.198.93.211.102.1117683768.squirrel@webmail.floodcity.net> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:42:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) From: To: X-SentVia: FloodCity Internet X-Originating-IP: 198.93.211.102 X-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040913 Firefox/0.10 In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20050601162409.032b81d0@mail.frys.com> References: <200506011401.j51E1Nit064067@net.indra.com> <4.3.1.2.20050601162409.032b81d0@mail.frys.com> X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: FloodCity WebMail (version 1.2.7) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > >>What are some of the myths/stereotypes of costuming you've had to deal >> with? > > What about the one claiming bugs got into tall hairstyles and lived > there? (Not too far fetched, come to think of it, since the bugs could > have been head lice.) I first heard this in the beehive-period early > 1960s, along with the allegation that the bugs bored right into the > owners head, unnoticed (which I didn't believe even then). I later > heard the same story about those tall hairdos in the late 1700s > (weevils going after the powder?), proving, at least, that it's an old > myth. > In the midwest the rumor went around that women had died from black widow spiders taking up residence in the beehive hairdo and being provoked perhaps by scratching or other irritation, stung the wearer to death. don't know if it was true, but I found a black widow spider on my pillow one morning the first year I lived in Colorado. scared of spiders ever since. Kitty _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Wed Jun 1 23:44:17 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j523iH3S018193 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:44:17 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j523heas019965 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:43:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j523hdWn051905; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:43:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web32914.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32914.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.206.61]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j523haFr051834 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:43:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from celticredhead2002@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 52193 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Jun 2005 03:43:31 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=tkv+xkeb6IEJLYQbyhNEwHO+A+ti6Jeo7YUwgB6nvYHx+sAg9OloLeUOq1qApK8jAZ4Xk0OmEedWiRcW7b3ZcqumIEVcJqYDdu46Vh8ECLuX20R9v7L6olsq8EDq0NWGTjtqXnUs6j8QKwSgOe9oSVLBgli7ApJMYAVDBPNOJUE= ; Message-ID: <20050602034331.52191.qmail@web32914.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [71.103.123.225] by web32914.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 20:43:31 PDT Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:43:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Melody Watts Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO --- Robin Netherton wrote: > > On Wed, 1 Jun 2005, Dawn wrote: > > > "The little bow on your bra is a holdover from > corset lacing. " > > ...Snip.... > > > But in a nice example of like-things-recurring over > time: The busk on an Elizabethan corset can be secured at the top by a small lace or point or > ribbon put through the corset, which (when tied) > produces a little bow at the same point we're accustomed to seeing bra bows. > > And if that's not enough: I don't have a source for > this, but I've heard others comment on Elizabethan-era references to the giving of one's > busk-lace as an intimate gift from a woman to a man > (perhaps suggesting > that once the lace is undone, the busk can be > removed...). Comment: I seem to remember seeing in the BBC production of Elizabeth R an episode when she is holding the Spanish Prince at bay, by sending him a present of a ribbon from her corset or busk...quite a darling & intimate gift for a suitor....after recieving quite a few of these ribbons, he gets miffed and tossese them to the floor. Where they got this "factoid" for the production I don't know..... > I'd love to have a source on the giving of > busk-strings, just because the > parallel is so cute. > > --Robin > > > _______________________________________________ > __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 00:29:11 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j524TAKY018828 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:29:11 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j524SOL0023833 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:28:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j524SLvj074559; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:28:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m28.mx.aol.com (imo-m28.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.9]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j524SDJn074448 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:28:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from TeaRoseS@aol.com) Received: from TeaRoseS@aol.com by imo-m28.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r1.7.) id 6.67.461002e8 (16781) for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:28:01 -0400 (EDT) From: TeaRoseS@aol.com Message-ID: <67.461002e8.2fcfe4d0@aol.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:28:00 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Men's Flemish peasant garb To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5200 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO That hay-in-art site is interesting, but the painting I was talking about isn't on it. I will try to get my book back from the person who borrowed it so I can scan the image for you. It didn't occur to me that it would be so hard to find online. Tara _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 00:51:47 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j524pkZw019132 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:51:46 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j524p8gb025282 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:51:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j524p7Ec084939; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:51:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web32907.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web32907.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.206.54]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j524p45H084886 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:51:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from celticredhead2002@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 49892 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Jun 2005 04:50:59 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=jH3cnQa1KzqFH/l7s/P8aguvSEPg5kq0B/5Slwa9iiyoAVKqjnG/4NrAduRRD/h1vWVMEMsELxjI1GIn0EfzwzLCEPDnSrRAOfl2zApGMsYxh4iNwrD94gYxsheO4Yrlvzxj9LDDuHzNfiMSOn2doL5BMygimNmEIuuwT2yurr8= ; Message-ID: <20050602045059.49887.qmail@web32907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [71.103.123.225] by web32907.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 21:50:59 PDT Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 21:50:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Melody Watts Subject: RE: [h-cost] Re: Costuming myths (just for fun...) To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <000001c5670d$8fefcb60$20542fd8@Sandra> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO My personal experience,: I still have a pair of kid gloves I first acquired at about age of 6 or 8. These were my "church" gloves. I took those poor crumpled gloves out the other day, worked them in my hands, softening the skin,warming them, and "worked" my now adult hands into them. only a slight "strain' showed at the thumb seam line. So ,when they say the ladies "worked" their hands into the gloves for some times before going out,it is true. The reason why the gloves are cut so small,_I_ think is the fact that they do indeed stretch out quite a bit after warming and wearing them...if they were cut large to begin with you'd have probably lost them off your hands. We don't have the patience to smooth, stretch,smooth ,stretch our selves into those gloves. They do look lovely when finally on, and fit like surgical gloves(commercial mode: "so flexible you can pick up a dime") I have a modern pair I bought from a lady "4 in hand" coach driver, kid skin,bitty, and smeling wonderful. Her instructions were the same, "warm ,stretch, ,put on, warm,stretch,warm, tug a bit, repeat" And a note: my adult hands resemble "donald Duck's feet,palm is almost perfectly square-about 3"x3" with longish fingers, ...not dainty by far...the gloves are about 2" across. --- Sandra Olsen wrote: > Small hands may indeed be prized, but stuffing ones > hands into > child-sized gloves seems a little extreme in pursuit > of fashion, rather > like tightlacing. Surely married, settled women > might give in and admit > their real size instead of blowing the seams out of > every pair. > > I have very long thin hands and I'm used to fingers > on gloves being too > short, but surely I can't be so much of an ogre that > not even the tips > of my fingers will fit! > > Maybe there's an expert out there who has yet to > weigh in? > > > > > > That said, I wonder why I can't ever find > Victorian-era gloves that > > aren't ridiculously tiny. Was diet so bad even > among the kid-glove > > wearing crowd? > > > > I think that I've read (in that famous 'somewhere') > that small hands > were prized so a woman would wear gloves that were > as small as > possible -- even if it made her hands look like > stuffed sausages > because they were so tight. > > Onaree > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 01:11:38 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j525Bcv3019472 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 01:11:38 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j525Ajl2026775 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:10:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j525Ai0W093698; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:10:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from avmta4-rme.xtra.co.nz (avmta4-rme.xtra.co.nz [210.86.15.159]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j525AeJY093640 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:10:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from thebruce@ihug.co.nz) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz ([210.86.15.240]) by avmta4-rme.xtra.co.nz with ESMTP id <20050602051034.SEZT2892.avmta4-rme.xtra.co.nz@mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz> for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:10:34 +1200 Received: from [10.1.1.3] ([222.152.200.185]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz with ESMTP id <20050602051034.OBOC8463.mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz@[10.1.1.3]> for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:10:34 +1200 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.322 [267.4.0]); Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:10:34 +1200 Message-ID: <011101c56731$67e77e50$0301010a@michaela> From: "michaela" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20050601134215.17710.qmail@web32905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Satin question Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 17:10:33 +1200 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > Somebody mentioned satin at Ren Faires, something that > has always really bugged me for the supposed era > people are trying to dress in. My question is this: > when exactly was the earliest known appearance of > satin, and when did it become more common? Clearly > the 1700s is riddled with good examples but what about > before that? I can't believe no one has mentioned the glorious red satin doublet of Charles the bold! It is a stunningly lustrous garment even now! I think I have some images of it in my photobucket account.. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v609/glittersweet/sca/DSCN2084.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v609/glittersweet/sca/DSCN2080.jpg The doublet is from the 1570s, and I'm pretty sure I've seen satin mentioned in the Privy Purse Accounts from the Richard III society, probably around 1500. http://caterinaetcetera.tripod.com/reference-elysabeth.htm http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/ms154/ArmingCoat/assembly.htm "Extant examples sported satin linings, and that made good sense for my effort. " Not sure which ones, but on the page on the history of arming doublets there are a few extant doublets. http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/ms154/ArmingCoat/history.htm Of course Eleanora di Toledo was buried in a satin gown, and when you look at the photos in Patterns of Fashion it still has a fair bit of lustre. Especially seen in the close up of the side back lacing. http://images.vam.ac.uk/images/photo/sch/20011109/high/0332-013.jpg http://images.vam.ac.uk/images/photo/sch/20011109/high/0332-014.jpg 1580-1600, cloak Red satin, couched and embroidered with silver, silver-gilt and coloured silk threads, trimmed with silver-gilt and silk thread fringe and tassel, and lined with pink linen museum number 793-1901 I understand it looks more lustrous in real life, brighter red as well. There is much more research out ther that has been done (possibly books about silk would be a good place to start as well as wills and the like) just perhpas not in a readily accessable site;) michaela http://glittersweet.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.4.0 - Release Date: 1/06/2005 _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 01:39:53 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j525dr5f019923 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 01:39:53 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j525d47g029003 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:39:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j525d1EN005521; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:39:01 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from jefferson.patriot.net (IDENT:VdVXsy9NbIUwpILlKAjD1t1vi9T8qrFh@jefferson.patriot.net [209.249.176.3]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j525cxqX005501 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:39:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from aquazoo@patriot.net) Received: from [209.249.180.121] (pool180-217.patriot.net [209.249.180.217]) (authenticated bits=0) by jefferson.patriot.net (8.12.10/8.12.3) with ESMTP id j525cmgx003472 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 01:38:54 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: aquazoo@mail.patriot.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20050601125258.0267d3f8@mail.frys.com> References: <200506011401.j51E1Nit064067@net.indra.com> <4.3.1.2.20050601125258.0267d3f8@mail.frys.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 01:25:41 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: Carol Kocian Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >And pre-PhotoShop photo re-touching is pretty obvious in most cases. The ones I've seen have the lady against a dark background - sitting on a dark chair, for example. So the retouching is not obvious, because they pick a plain background in order for it to work. >Maybe it's just that kid leather is prone to shrinkage? When is the last time kid gloves were made? So there they are at various antique stores, a shrinking cache, the larger ones being sold before the smaller ones. Not to mention the doll makers who buy them to cut off the tips for doll shoes! Although the stretching makes sense, I think it's becoming more and more a lucky find for gloves that fit an average or large size hand. -Carol _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 01:44:40 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j525ieMP020012 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 01:44:40 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j525hifs029248 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:43:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j525hiwb007404; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:43:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j525hgM5007351 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:43:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cley@juno.com) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by m08.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABBK7HDLADBWCYS for (sender ); Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:43:06 -0700 (PDT) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: QHEuP/IhRKXTJ0EJwxwhgrPqXBQPP5RrI6yBONBlQJA= Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KUGF84H5; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 22:42:57 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 22:38:08 -0700 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Message-ID: <20050601.224230.1832.1.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-3,5-11,17-18 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley X-ContentStamp: 6:3:1771340840 X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 127.0.0.1|localhost|m08.lax.untd.com|cley@juno.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 16:01:38 -0500 "Althea Turner" writes: > Why am I hearing in my head strains of the song, "When the squirrel > went berzerk in the First Selfrighteous church in the sleepy little town > of Tuskagoula" > > :D You WOULD bring that up!!! ;D Regarding busk points--there's an English madrigal that mentions them. Apparently for a man to gain a lady's favor to the end that she gave him one was quite the prize. The song mentions a fellow recieving a busk points with the tags (ties) off. I can't remember what it's called at the moment, although I swear I hear the King's Singers performing the relevent bits in my head. ;) Arlys _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 02:20:47 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j526KlGa027316 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 02:20:47 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j526JMuV031225 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:19:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j526JDQ0021894; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:19:13 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.tpg.com.au (mail6.tpgi.com.au [203.12.160.113]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j526J9o2021858 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:19:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ewalpole@tpg.com.au) Received: from e9q5h8 (220-245-221-172-act-pppoe.tpgi.com.au [220.245.221.172]) by mail.tpg.com.au (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id j526J6bO022024 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:19:08 +1000 Message-ID: <000101c5673a$d097caa0$acddf5dc@e9q5h8> From: "Elizabeth Walpole" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20756740.1117653829300.JavaMail.root@wamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 12:01:52 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-TPG-Antivirus: Passed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Laning" BTW, my favorite costume myth is one I can no longer locate the original of, which means it must be at least fifteen years since I saw it: that for warmth, medieval women frequently carried small furry animals around with them in the pockets and sleeves of their clothing.... for me at least, the mental images this produces are hilarious! Actually I believe this may have been imported, I believe the Chinese Emperors actually did have dogs in their sleeves (but then again I may be perpetuating a costume myth here) so I'd expect somebody made a joke about Houpellande sleeves being the right shape for something similar, and somebody took it as fact. Elizabeth -------------------------------------------- Elizabeth Walpole Canberra Australia ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au http://au.geocities.com/e_walpole/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 02:21:48 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j526LlIf027673 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 02:21:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j526KW3O031327 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:20:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j526KWuZ022482; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:20:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com [24.94.166.115]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j526JGWO021911 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:19:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from dannw@mn.rr.com) Received: from oemcomputer.mn.rr.com (CPE-24-26-191-39.mn.res.rr.com [24.26.191.39]) by ms-smtp-01.rdc-kc.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with ESMTP id j526J9ZC028114 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 01:19:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20050602011612.00c4cff8@pop-server.mn.rr.com> X-Sender: dannw@pop-server.mn.rr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 01:18:38 -0500 To: Historical Costume From: Danielle Nunn-Weinberg Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Satin Question In-Reply-To: <20050601193559.13985.qmail@web32914.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200506011800.j51I0Pwr060311@net.indra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Yup, wills are a font of information. While I mainly work with 16th century wills, I have seen it in 15th century English wills as well as, "silk of Saracen work" - it was bedding in a priest's will... Cheers, Danielle At 12:35 PM 6/1/2005 -0700, you wrote: >Yes, I know Satin is a weave! :) And yes, the Orient >had satins wayyy back when... I should have been more >specific in my question. I was thinking >narrow-mindedly of western culture. Teehee. Thanks >for the responses, though. It looks like it will >definitely require some more research. That's >interesting about it being in wills! I never would >have thought to look there. I'll bet there's all >sorts of interesting things to learn from wills! > > > There are examples of satin weaves used in 16th > > century clothing....I've > > even seen an extant bit of cut-and-voided velvet > > (16th c.) that had a > > background of satin weave, which really made the > > velvet pile stand out > > in contrast. > > --sue > > >That sounds absolutely breathtaking! Hm, I may want >to "steal" that idea (or "re-create"... right? wink >wink). > > > >"Is there any hope, Gandalf? . . . For Frodo and Sam?" >"There never was much hope. Just a fool's hope." > >--Pippin and Gandalf, RETURN OF THE KING > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 02:56:09 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j526u90K007345 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 02:56:09 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j526sagJ033253 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:54:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j526sYpG037752; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:54:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web31110.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web31110.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.200.43]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j526sRBU037633 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:54:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sismith42@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 12579 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Jun 2005 06:54:21 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=VVPQ57RDugNB0xhlEScQkftDbZfSWe+xGFCi6uCzqFxfkCRw5OIMCEDJu4iUpAOdqbAn8bcX8pEdGZ4sCtEdX3m2A8Pr39EPyqgluZdZMCH+VUvy7DjPB+RG0PB+OF3axJ+Jz2dEmbHv4JhbsOYxL9drKhENOshELUb1aQBiXw8= ; Message-ID: <20050602065421.12577.qmail@web31110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [4.243.224.235] by web31110.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 01 Jun 2005 23:54:21 PDT Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:54:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Stephanie Smith To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200506012213.j51MDWVv067619@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] on the influence of weapons use and pockets X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Julie wrote: >**Ulp - I thought it was something about keeping the sword arm free. Another myth? Adele replied: I think nearly anything that posits a relationship between weapons use and ordinary clothes can be dismissed. I comment: Why do you think this? Certainly there have been points in history in which military "style" has influenced civilian style (eg: late 1990's, when camos were cool, Regency/Napoleonic times, when ladies wore Scarlet outfits with gold frogging-- or is that another urban legend I believe in? *g*)... why would influence due to function be so very different? Adele wrote: I think Janet Arnold's _Patterns of Fashion_ has a picture of a pair of Venetians with a pocket set into the side seam. This is _not_ to say that pockets on separate bands didn't stay popular for at least another 300 years. I reply: Awesome! I have Renaissance-minded, pocket-loving (addicted?) friends who will be thrilled when they learn about this! (I, too, believed in the "fichets, not pockets for pre-modern days" myth.) Out of curiosity, why did the "old" method stick around for so long? Cheers, Stephanie __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 02:57:51 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j526vodO007953 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 02:57:51 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j526v6ei033387 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:57:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j526v66B038780; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:57:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay14-dav5.bay14.hotmail.com [64.4.48.109]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j526v4Ft038732 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:57:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from victoria_arrington@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:56:59 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 68.224.30.212 by BAY14-DAV5.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 06:56:58 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [68.224.30.212] X-Originating-Email: [victoria_arrington@hotmail.com] X-Sender: victoria_arrington@hotmail.com From: "VAA" To: , References: <200506011945.j51Jis45047321@net.indra.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:57:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jun 2005 06:56:59.0039 (UTC) FILETIME=[456EE2F0:01C56740] X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 4, Issue 355 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >BTW, my favorite costume myth is one I can no longer locate the original of, which means it must be at least fifteen years since I saw it: that for warmth, medieval women frequently carried small furry >animals around with them in the pockets and sleeves of their clothing.... for me at least, the mental images this produces are hilarious! You are kidding, right? That is not even close to being logical! Mine is the old "women removed their ribs for tinier waists". Hmm, in the days of antique medicine, you would have to be rather vain for that one. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 02:58:07 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j526w7hF008049 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 02:58:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j526vQrk033446 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:57:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j526vQtb038961; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:57:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay14-dav5.bay14.hotmail.com [64.4.48.109]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j526v4xo038734 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 00:57:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from victoria_arrington@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:56:59 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 68.224.30.212 by BAY14-DAV5.phx.gbl with DAV; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 06:56:58 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [68.224.30.212] X-Originating-Email: [victoria_arrington@hotmail.com] X-Sender: victoria_arrington@hotmail.com From: "VAA" To: , References: <200506011945.j51Jis45047321@net.indra.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 23:57:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jun 2005 06:56:59.0039 (UTC) FILETIME=[456EE2F0:01C56740] X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 4, Issue 355 X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >BTW, my favorite costume myth is one I can no longer locate the original of, which means it must be at least fifteen years since I saw it: that for warmth, medieval women frequently carried small furry >animals around with them in the pockets and sleeves of their clothing.... for me at least, the mental images this produces are hilarious! You are kidding, right? That is not even close to being logical! Mine is the old "women removed their ribs for tinier waists". Hmm, in the days of antique medicine, you would have to be rather vain for that one. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 04:41:35 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j528fY8d000589 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 04:41:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j528eSAD042159 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 02:40:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j528ePjo081315; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 02:40:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk ([193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j528eKQu081013 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 02:40:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id j528ddd06291.; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:39:39 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:39:39 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.4 Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:39:24 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id j528eKQu081013 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO "Cavaliers and Roundheads could be instantly told apart by their style of dress." (Clothing differences had much more to do with social class; officers on both sides dressed similarly, although a few wealthy Parliamentarians affected plain "Puritan" styles on principle.) Kate Bunting Librarian and 17th century reenactor >>> jtknits@jtknits.cts.com 01/06/2005 19:38 >>> This reminds me... What are some of the myths/stereotypes of costuming you've had to deal with? _____________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 04:48:38 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j528mbPN002828 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 04:48:37 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j528lbbn043976 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 02:47:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j528la04083907; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 02:47:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk ([193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j528lXSg083844 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 02:47:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id j528lQd06908.; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:47:26 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:47:25 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.4 Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:47:09 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1662 costume notes from Pepys Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id j528lXSg083844 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Kate Bunting Librarian and 17th century reenactor >>> AnnBWass@aol.com 01/06/2005 15:35 >>> >In a message dated 6/1/2005 9:52:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, >cvirtue+dated+1133185394.46599e@thibault.org writes: >NB "Beard" in this context probably means "moustache", as full >beards were >not normally worn at this time. >No, I think "beard" means all facial hair. Pepys was a proponent of >self-shaving. After trying the stone, he later switched to a razor. A >later entry, "without being shaved I am not fully awake nor ready to >settle to business." But he says he suddenly decided to remove his beard "which I had been a great while bringing up". This suggests a deliberately cultivated area of facial hair, not just a few days' stubble. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 04:56:37 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j528uZXT004845 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 04:56:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j528tuql046289 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 02:55:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j528ttgO086956; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 02:55:55 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk ([193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j528tqUP086893 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 02:55:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id j528tkd07637.; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:55:46 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:55:46 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.4 Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:55:24 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id j528tqUP086893 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Kate Bunting Librarian and 17th century reenactor >>> cathy@thyrsus.com 02/06/2005 01:42 >>> >Exactly. As Oliver Wendell Holmes (allegedly) said, "all >generalizations are no good, including this one." Henry VIII of England >was apparently around 6 feet 2 inches tall (we have full suits of >armor he wore to help confirm it). >On the other hand, I've seen Horatio Nelson's uniform coat in the >Greenwich Naval Museum, and it's tiny (i.e., I could not fit into it, and >I'm only 5 feet 1 inch tall, 130 pounds). Yes, and King Charles I was around 5 feet tall, but his son Charles II (who allegedly took after his French grandfather) was "above two yards high". _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 04:57:37 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j528vaL5004967 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 04:57:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j528uw7W046619 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 02:56:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j528uwP2087398; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 02:56:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk ([193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j528ut4h087247 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 02:56:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id j528und07750.; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:56:49 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:56:49 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.4 Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:56:18 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id j528ut4h087247 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO "If you wish to live and thrive, Let the spider run alive." Kate Bunting Librarian and 17th century reenactor >>> elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net 02/06/2005 02:47 >>> Hmmm, I've got to share this: Back in my younger days...say around 1978, I was sitting in church and the lady in the seat in front of me had an elaborately teased and hairsprayed like a rock up do. Lo and behond I saw a spider, leisurely wandering through the stiffened mass of hair. I gingerly took my crochet hook, enticed it out of the little nest and promptly stomped on it. She gave me the dirtiest look and didn't believe me when I explained what had happened. But I promise you it was true! I do not like spiders anywhere in my immediate vicinty, and thus the intruder had to go, even though it was on someone else's head! -- Slan go foill Elena ÓTighearnaigh Átha An Ri Emer's Needle Wares -------------- Original message -------------- > > >What are some of the myths/stereotypes of costuming you've had to deal with? > > What about the one claiming bugs got into tall hairstyles and lived > there? (Not too far fetched, come to think of it, since the bugs could > have been head lice.) I first heard this in the beehive-period early > 1960s, along with the allegation that the bugs bored right into the owners > head, unnoticed (which I didn't believe even then). I later heard the same > story about those tall hairdos in the late 1700s (weevils going after the > powder?), proving, at least, that it's an old myth. > > CarolynKayta Barrows > dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian > www.FunStuft.com > > //// \\\ > ////-@@\\\ > (((( 7 ))) > ((( <> )))) > ) (((((( > /----\ /---\)) > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 05:04:03 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52942Ju005668 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 05:04:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j5293FGP048322 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 03:03:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5293Edi089988; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 03:03:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail1.derby.ac.uk ([193.60.149.5]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j5293ATT089936 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 03:03:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from K.M.Bunting@derby.ac.uk) Received: from CSV6.derby.ac.uk (csv6.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.14]) by mail1.derby.ac.uk (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id j52934d08383.; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:03:04 +0100 (BST) Received: from staff-MTA by CSV6.derby.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:03:03 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.5.4 Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:02:55 +0100 From: "Kate M Bunting" To: Subject: Re: [h-cost] on the influence of weapons use and pockets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by net.indra.com id j5293ATT089936 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO When male and female button direction was discussed on this list several years ago, I quoted the assertion from a boys' book of my father's, circa 1917, that men's coats buttoned left over right so the sword would not catch in the opening. It was agreed that this doesn't make sense - when you draw a sword, you don't pull it across your front. Kate Bunting Librarian and 17th century reenactor >>> sismith42@yahoo.com 02/06/2005 07:54 >>> Julie wrote: >**Ulp - I thought it was something about keeping the sword arm free. Another myth? Adele replied: I think nearly anything that posits a relationship between weapons use and ordinary clothes can be dismissed. I comment: Why do you think this? Certainly there have been points in history in which military "style" has influenced civilian style (eg: late 1990's, when camos were cool, Regency/Napoleonic times, when ladies wore Scarlet outfits with gold frogging-- or is that another urban legend I believe in? *g*)... why would influence due to function be so very different? Adele wrote: I think Janet Arnold's _Patterns of Fashion_ has a picture of a pair of Venetians with a pocket set into the side seam. This is _not_ to say that pockets on separate bands didn't stay popular for at least another 300 years. I reply: Awesome! I have Renaissance-minded, pocket-loving (addicted?) friends who will be thrilled when they learn about this! (I, too, believed in the "fichets, not pockets for pre-modern days" myth.) Out of curiosity, why did the "old" method stick around for so long? Cheers, Stephanie __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/online.html _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 05:28:43 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j529SgT0009673 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 05:28:42 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j529RnAR055564 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 03:27:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j529Rc2j099936; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 03:27:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail.tpg.com.au (mail5.tpgi.com.au [203.12.160.101]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j529RZFT099909 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 03:27:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ewalpole@tpg.com.au) Received: from e9q5h8 (220-245-221-101-act-pppoe.tpgi.com.au [220.245.221.101]) by mail.tpg.com.au (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id j529RUM1017781 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 19:27:33 +1000 Message-ID: <000301c56755$2012a0e0$65ddf5dc@e9q5h8> From: "Elizabeth Walpole" To: "Historical Costume" References: <000001c566df$044b6fc0$3c542fd8@Sandra> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 18:18:20 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-TPG-Antivirus: Passed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO > > That said, I wonder why I can't ever find Victorian-era gloves that > aren't ridiculously tiny. Was diet so bad even among the kid-glove > wearing crowd? well, statistically, there was quite a drop in height (and therefore overall size) at the beginning of the 19th century, plus tight gloves were another one of those immobilising signs of status. and (as others have mentioned) they may not actually be adult gloves. Elizabeth -------------------------------------------- Elizabeth Walpole Canberra Australia ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au http://au.geocities.com/e_walpole/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 05:35:25 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j529ZOF6010913 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 05:35:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j529YTGc057495 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 03:34:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j529YTdT002783; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 03:34:29 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.197]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j529YQvb002682 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 03:34:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jaurbik@optonline.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (ool-18bdecc2.dyn.optonline.net [24.189.236.194]) by mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IHG000TDAKAHT@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 05:34:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 05:34:32 -0400 From: J Schueller Subject: Re: [h-cost] Re: Men's Flemish peasant garb In-reply-to: <67.461002e8.2fcfe4d0@aol.com> To: Historical Costume Message-id: <429ED2A8.1060508@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) References: <67.461002e8.2fcfe4d0@aol.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hey, don't worry. I have had no time (10 is earliest i've got home lately, and i leave at 6am sharp) to do anything about it. when i get a breather, i will stop at the library. I should today or they will send back my books on tape, but they are not open by the time i get near home (complain, complain, complain!) TeaRoseS@aol.com wrote: > > >That hay-in-art site is interesting, but the painting I was talking about >isn't on it. I will try to get my book back from the person who borrowed it so >I can scan the image for you. It didn't occur to me that it would be so hard >to find online. > >Tara > > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > > > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 05:41:07 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j529f6oD014066 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 05:41:07 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j529bqVF058260 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 03:37:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j529bpgN004283; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 03:37:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net [167.206.4.202]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j529bnBx004226 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 03:37:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from jaurbik@optonline.net) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (ool-18bdecc2.dyn.optonline.net [24.189.236.194]) by mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.25 (built Mar 3 2004)) with ESMTP id <0IHG00C2JAR67Z@mta7.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 05:37:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 05:38:17 -0400 From: J Schueller Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) In-reply-to: <000301c56755$2012a0e0$65ddf5dc@e9q5h8> To: Historical Costume Message-id: <429ED389.20502@optonline.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en-us, en User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) References: <000001c566df$044b6fc0$3c542fd8@Sandra> <000301c56755$2012a0e0$65ddf5dc@e9q5h8> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Drop in hight? Elizabeth Walpole wrote: >well, statistically, there was quite a drop in height (and therefore overall >size) at the beginning of the 19th century, > _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 07:30:03 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52BU2T2025166 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:30:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j52BSv1b064770 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 05:28:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52BSsHx048148; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 05:28:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from grelber.thyrsus.com (dsl092-053-140.phl1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.92.53.140]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52BSmpb048085 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 05:28:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cathy@thyrsus.com) Received: from minx.thyrsus.com (minx.thyrsus.com [192.168.1.21]) by grelber.thyrsus.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52CmcVn007732 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:48:42 -0400 From: Catherine Olanich Raymond To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] on the influence of weapons use and pockets Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:28:37 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.7 References: <20050602065421.12577.qmail@web31110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050602065421.12577.qmail@web31110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200506020728.37682.cathy@thyrsus.com> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thursday 02 June 2005 2:54 am, Stephanie Smith wrote: [snip] > Adele wrote: > I think Janet Arnold's _Patterns of Fashion_ has a > picture of a pair of Venetians with a pocket set into > the side seam. This is _not_ to say that pockets on > separate bands didn't stay popular for at least > another 300 years. I grabbed for my copy when I read that. Actually, Arnold describes two pair of upper hose with pockets, both dated to the late 1610s. -- Cathy Raymond "So what if the universe is a pointless mass of hydrogen refuse powered by entropy. I'm spreading ketchup on a rubber duck, and after that I'm going to brush its teeth. So there."-- Rob Landley _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 08:03:34 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52C3XQW025474 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:03:34 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j52C2dov066728 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:02:39 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52C2cCF062251; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:02:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from authusersmtp.mail.cornell.edu (granite1.mail.cornell.edu [128.253.83.141]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52C2W1U062190 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:02:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ms154@cornell.edu) Received: from Bellview.cornell.edu ([128.253.111.234]) (authenticated bits=0) by authusersmtp.mail.cornell.edu (8.13.1/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j52C5R0h002732 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:05:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20050602080125.01961be0@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: ms154@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 08:02:31 -0400 To: Historical Costume From: M Stewart In-Reply-To: <42989F00.4050108@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] Copper lace. X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Copper lace ca. 1560. from Theater Inventory listings >Hi all you Lacers out there. What is the earliest evidence you have seen >of any kind of lace made from metallic threads? > >Thanks, Sg >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 08:17:08 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52CH8Pr025615 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:17:08 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j52CGI6N067679 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:16:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52CG8Ha068198; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:16:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from kline.thibault.org (komarr.thibault.org [66.92.75.137]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52CG2Lx068157 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:16:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cvirtue+keyword+histcostume.aa1b43@thibault.org) Received: from kline-station.local.thibault.org (kline-station.local.thibault.org [127.0.0.1]) by kline.thibault.org (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j52C7tmT022552 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:07:55 -0400 Received: from thibault.org (cetaganda.local.thibault.org [192.168.10.21]) by kline-station.local.thibault.org (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 08:07:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <429EF881.8040404@thibault.org> Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 08:16:01 -0400 Organization: Medieval Hats: http://www.virtue.to User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1662 costume notes from Pepys References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Cynthia Virtue X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.78 (Hill Gail) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO So what do y'all figure the powder in the hair was for? To keep it from looking oily? -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent "Before I die with a hammer in my hand, I'm gonna get me a steam drill, too, Lord, Lord, Get me a steam drill too!" -- The Smothers Brothers version of The Ballad of John Henry _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 08:27:43 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52CRhsg025729 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:27:43 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j52CQrJY068451 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:26:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52CQqha072708; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:26:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp813.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (smtp813.mail.ukl.yahoo.com [217.12.12.203]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j52CQmub072634 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:26:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from suzi@suziclarke.co.uk) Received: (qmail 7482 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2005 12:26:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO solena.suziclarke.co.uk) (h-costume@indra.com@217.44.108.139 with poptime) by smtp813.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 2005 12:26:42 -0000 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050602131940.014ded58@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: mail.suziclarke.co.uk:suziclarkeuk-mail@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 13:24:41 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Suzi Clarke Subject: Re: [h-cost] 1662 costume notes from Pepys In-Reply-To: <429EF881.8040404@thibault.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 08:16 02/06/2005 -0400, you wrote: >So what do y'all figure the powder in the hair was for? To keep it from >looking oily? > >-- >Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent > >"Before I die with a hammer in my hand, >I'm gonna get me a steam drill, too, Lord, Lord, >Get me a steam drill too!" > -- The Smothers Brothers version of The Ballad of John Henry Powder was used in hair to make it the colour required, mostly white or grey but coloured powders were used too. (Later, 18th century wigs were stiffened, shaped and coloured with pipeclay.) It is perfectly probable that "creatures" would like it, as it was food based, I believe, like powdered orris root, which also smells wonderful (when fresh!) or other substances. There is a good book on Hair and hairdressing, probably out of print, by Richard Corson. It has detailed information on 5000 years of hairdressing, quotes on the subject and many line drawings of hair and wig styles through the centuries. Suzi _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 08:43:33 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52ChXsi025880 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:43:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j52Cgbat069875 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:42:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52Cgbpq080074; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:42:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web31015.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web31015.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.201.73]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j52CgYUb080015 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:42:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from corbiegirl@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 7334 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Jun 2005 12:42:28 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=phXRDz34i5g/2sWCSPoNaGh1jBbDDqRKfLWRhxMGsEhF0nDDBfRjNoZNlcgoHexzMEKZNAm8xu8FHVAshWJlrYEwMqCCgfzueKOQGq3nj/aexflUbcTA5gKwzS/lU6A6Yz3p2SNHvJMACAk/gLBTofKbZTfpzGdB8VuZo5xz0FQ= ; Message-ID: <20050602124228.7332.qmail@web31015.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [205.153.36.171] by web31015.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 05:42:28 PDT Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 05:42:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Mara Riley To: h-costume@indra.com In-Reply-To: <200506012213.j51MDWVv067619@net.indra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] handspun/handwoven, was costume myths X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Actually, we've had several discussions on the 18cWoman list about handspun. Yes, people in the colonies / on the frontier did weave some of their own clothing, but a LOT of fabric was being imported as well. The perception that "everyone in the colonies wore handspun, all the time" is another costuming myth that I've been trying to combat. (All-or-nothing statements, you know...) And in the mid-Atlantic PA German areas, particularly, the pattern seems to have been that (some) women spun flax and wool at home (a fair percentage of houses didn't have spinning wheels at all), then sent the yarn off to a local (professional) weaver and/or dyer to be woven and/or dyed. A few books that deal with the subject are "Good Wives" and "The Age of Homespun" by Laurel Thatcher Ulrich and "Cloth and Costume" by Tandy and Charles Hersh. Cheers, Mara http://knittingobsession.blogspot.com/ - knitting blog http://www.knittingobsession.com/patterns.htm - Modern knitting patterns http://www.marariley.net/ - 18th century costume notes and patterns --------------------- Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd. - Voltaire _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 09:20:18 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52DKItt026244 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:20:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j52DJNS7073393 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:19:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52DJKMx098279; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:19:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from omta16.mta.everyone.net (sitemail2.everyone.net [216.200.145.36]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52DJI4E098260 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:19:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lalahcatlady@netscape.com) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (bigiplb-dsnat [172.16.0.19]) by omta16.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BB2E40083 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:19:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id CD0B5393B; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:19:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Lalah To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) X-Originating-Ip: [64.12.116.73] X-Eon-Sig: AQI79nRCnwdQAAwhcwEAAAAB,6537fd1198c3b1a4f1521999931983a2 Message-Id: <20050602131912.CD0B5393B@sitemail.everyone.net> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I wouldn't want to carry a critter around with me, but a half dozen cats beats an electric blanket any cold night!! Lalah, Never give up, Never surrender --- Carolyn Kayta Barrows wrote: From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 12:38:08 -0700 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) The closest I have heard to that is that small dogs, besides being amusing, were warmer than people-body-temperature. And Eskimos do sleep next to dogs on cold nights (or is it the dogs choosing to sleep next to the people?). CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _____________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/emreg Netscape. Just the Net You Need. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 09:26:39 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52DQdBn026306 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:26:39 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j52DPkLl074041 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:25:46 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52DPjgr001812; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:25:45 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from omta18.mta.everyone.net (sitemail2.everyone.net [216.200.145.36]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52DPhjY001779 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:25:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from lalahcatlady@netscape.com) Received: from sitemail.everyone.net (bigiplb-dsnat [172.16.0.19]) by omta18.mta.everyone.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57124403AE for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:25:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sitemail.everyone.net (Postfix, from userid 99) id 360073955; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:25:42 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.41 (Entity 5.404) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:25:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Lalah To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) X-Originating-Ip: [64.12.116.74] X-Eon-Sig: AQI79nRCnwjWAAI2rAEAAAAB,0d154136c8e56337bba5df5933d97c47 Message-Id: <20050602132542.360073955@sitemail.everyone.net> X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On the whole, nutrition has a lot to do with how tall people grow (after their genes are considered). QE 1 was very proud of her height and Mary Queen of Scots was almost six feet tall. Of course, they ate better than than the average too. However, they did not have nutritionists telling them what to eat and changing their minds every year either. They ate what was available and for the rich, their diet was pretty high in meat and bread and root crops that could be stored. Fresh vegies and fruit were pretty seasonal. Lalah, Never give up, Never surrender --- Adele de Maisieres wrote: From: Adele de Maisieres Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:44:37 +1200 To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Julie wrote: >People were smaller then. Just look at all the small uniforms that have been recovered, small armor, etc. (what about some of the 6 foot plus skeletons, etc...Abe Lincoln) So were they mostly smaller? Sure seems to be so in current times. Children are often taller than their parents and grandparents. Is it diet? Is it genes? > > It depends what you mean. It's probably safest to say that the heights of _lower_class people have increased a good deal, but those of upper class people by much less. A friend of mine is interested in 19th century militaria and says that many of the jackets he's found have been too small for him-- and he's only 5'7" and slim. Heights are determined by a combination of genetics and diet. And a single example doesn't prove anything about averages-- Lincoln was considered a tall man while he was alive. -- Adele de Maisieres ----------------------------- Quot homines, tot sententiae. ----------------------------- _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _____________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/emreg Netscape. Just the Net You Need. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 09:33:28 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52DXRri026376 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:33:28 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j52DWiH3074916 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:32:44 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52DWhN5005708; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:32:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail12.mdx.safepages.com (mail12.mdx.safepages.com [216.127.154.242]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52DWeWu005678 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:32:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from formfunc@formfunction.org) Received: by mail12.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix, from userid 1012) id 0F3E7B5E1; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:32:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from compaqub (dialup-4.244.126.214.Dial1.StLouis1.Level3.net [4.244.126.214]) by mail12.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1D8BCB6ED for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:32:43 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <00ed01c56777$bc50fac0$0400a8c0@compaqub> From: "E House" To: "Historical Costume" References: <5.2.1.1.2.20050602080125.01961be0@postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> Subject: Re: [h-cost] metallic lace Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:33:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO There's a portrait by Corneille de Lyon from 1530-40 of a woman with what I can only assume is some sort of metallic lace at the neckline: http://www.wga.hu/html/c/corneill/p_woman.html (If anyone can think of something _other_ than metallic lace that this could be, I'd like very much to know!) -E House _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 09:35:19 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52DZJMR026386 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:35:19 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j52DYfYj075129 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:34:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52DYfmp006905; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:34:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail10.mdx.safepages.com (mail10.mdx.safepages.com [216.127.133.33]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52DYbnE006868 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:34:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from formfunc@formfunction.org) Received: by mail10.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix, from userid 1012) id 5E762203B7; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:34:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from compaqub (dialup-4.244.126.214.Dial1.StLouis1.Level3.net [4.244.126.214]) by mail10.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 9C8B52037E for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:34:40 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <00f501c56778$02a659c0$0400a8c0@compaqub> From: "E House" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20756740.1117653829300.JavaMail.root@wamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net><429E1067.4090202@reddawn.net> <200506012120.12320.cathy@thyrsus.com> Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:35:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm not Dawn, but if you'll give me an hour or two I can post several pictures of advertisements of bras & extant garments from the 1890s-1910s. -E House ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catherine Olanich Raymond" > Really? I don't know of any evidence for a support garment remotely like > the > brassiere before the late 19-teens--early 1920s. What source do you have > in > mind? _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 09:50:18 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52DoHss026556 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:50:18 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j52DnL7K076626 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:49:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52DnK5E014880; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:49:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from mail10.mdx.safepages.com (mail10.mdx.safepages.com [216.127.133.33]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52DnHQ3014859 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:49:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from formfunc@formfunction.org) Received: by mail10.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix, from userid 1012) id F1A8B20667; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:49:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from compaqub (dialup-4.244.126.214.Dial1.StLouis1.Level3.net [4.244.126.214]) by mail10.mdx.safepages.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 037222063F for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:49:19 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <013f01c5677a$0ec2ddd0$0400a8c0@compaqub> From: "E House" To: "Historical Costume" References: <20050601134215.17710.qmail@web32905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <011101c56731$67e77e50$0301010a@michaela> Subject: Re: [h-cost] shot silk (was: Satin question) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:50:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO This discussion reminds me of something I've been trying to track down the last few days. Exactly when did shot silk (or shot wool, for that matter) fall out of fashion between the 15th & 16th centuries? Fabric shot with both gold and other colors shows up in manuscripts well into the 16thC, but not in any portraits I can call to mind. It seems reasonable to assume that the shot effect seen in the manuscripts is intended for artistic purposes only (in other words, as an opportunity to lay on the gilt and make it look richer). -E House (has her eye on a lovely shot silk taffeta she'd like to buy for a c1515 gown, but would settle for 1490s...) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 10:08:00 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52E7xDY026738 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:08:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j52E7Fb0078561 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:07:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52E7El4025829; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:07:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52E7BKF025766 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:07:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net) Received: from 204.127.197.117 ([204.127.197.117]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <20050602140706015009e87fe>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:07:06 +0000 Received: from [67.160.21.223] by 204.127.197.117; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:07:04 +0000 From: elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net To: Historical Costume Subject: spiders..Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:07:04 +0000 Message-Id: <060220051407.2220.429F128800053ACA000008AC22007340760809070E029D0E0A0809079BA101A10E020A040A@comcast.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Dec 17 2004) X-Authenticated-Sender: ZWxlbmFfb190aWdoZWFybmFpZ2hAY29tY2FzdC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Oh, I agree! But as a girl, I ended up getting bitten by a spider 5 summers in a row, so they are not allowed in close proximity. If they stay where they belong, they can merrily spin whatever webs they like... -- Slan go foill Elena ÓTighearnaigh Átha An Ri Emer's Needle Wares -------------- Original message -------------- > "If you wish to live and thrive, > Let the spider run alive." > > Kate Bunting > Librarian and 17th century reenactor > > >>> elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net 02/06/2005 02:47 >>> > Hmmm, I've got to share this: Back in my younger days...say around 1978, I was > sitting in church and the lady in the seat in front of me had an elaborately > teased and hairsprayed like a rock up do. Lo and behond I saw a spider, > leisurely wandering through the stiffened mass of hair. I gingerly took my > crochet hook, enticed it out of the little nest and promptly stomped on it. > > She gave me the dirtiest look and didn't believe me when I explained what had > happened. But I promise you it was true! I do not like spiders anywhere in my > immediate vicinty, and thus the intruder had to go, even though it was on > someone else's head! > > -- > Slan go foill > Elena ÓTighearnaigh Átha An Ri > > Emer's Needle Wares > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > > > >What are some of the myths/stereotypes of costuming you've had to deal with? > > > > What about the one claiming bugs got into tall hairstyles and lived > > there? (Not too far fetched, come to think of it, since the bugs could > > have been head lice.) I first heard this in the beehive-period early > > 1960s, along with the allegation that the bugs bored right into the owners > > head, unnoticed (which I didn't believe even then). I later heard the same > > story about those tall hairdos in the late 1700s (weevils going after the > > powder?), proving, at least, that it's an old myth. > > > > CarolynKayta Barrows > > dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian > > www.FunStuft.com > > > > //// \\\ > > ////-@@\\\ > > (((( 7 ))) > > ((( <> )))) > > ) (((((( > > /----\ /---\)) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 10:10:35 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52EAZFc026760 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:10:35 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j52E9new078747 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:09:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52E9nPZ027426; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:09:49 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.198.35]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52E7Lsa025853 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:07:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net) Received: from 204.127.197.111 (unknown[204.127.197.128](misconfigured sender)) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <20050602140716013004o3qfe>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:07:16 +0000 Received: from [67.160.21.223] by 204.127.197.111; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:06:54 +0000 From: elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net To: Historical Costume Subject: spiders..Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:06:54 +0000 Message-Id: <060220051406.25681.429F127E0000B7ED0000645122070009530809070E029D0E0A0809079BA101A10E020A040A@comcast.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Dec 17 2004) X-Authenticated-Sender: ZWxlbmFfb190aWdoZWFybmFpZ2hAY29tY2FzdC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Oh, I agree! But as a girl, I ended up getting bitten by a spider 5 summers in a row, so they are not allowed in close proximity. If they stay where they belong, they can merrily spin whatever webs they like... -- Slan go foill Elena ÓTighearnaigh Átha An Ri Emer's Needle Wares -------------- Original message -------------- > "If you wish to live and thrive, > Let the spider run alive." > > Kate Bunting > Librarian and 17th century reenactor > > >>> elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net 02/06/2005 02:47 >>> > Hmmm, I've got to share this: Back in my younger days...say around 1978, I was > sitting in church and the lady in the seat in front of me had an elaborately > teased and hairsprayed like a rock up do. Lo and behond I saw a spider, > leisurely wandering through the stiffened mass of hair. I gingerly took my > crochet hook, enticed it out of the little nest and promptly stomped on it. > > She gave me the dirtiest look and didn't believe me when I explained what had > happened. But I promise you it was true! I do not like spiders anywhere in my > immediate vicinty, and thus the intruder had to go, even though it was on > someone else's head! > > -- > Slan go foill > Elena ÓTighearnaigh Átha An Ri > > Emer's Needle Wares > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > > > >What are some of the myths/stereotypes of costuming you've had to deal with? > > > > What about the one claiming bugs got into tall hairstyles and lived > > there? (Not too far fetched, come to think of it, since the bugs could > > have been head lice.) I first heard this in the beehive-period early > > 1960s, along with the allegation that the bugs bored right into the owners > > head, unnoticed (which I didn't believe even then). I later heard the same > > story about those tall hairdos in the late 1700s (weevils going after the > > powder?), proving, at least, that it's an old myth. > > > > CarolynKayta Barrows > > dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian > > www.FunStuft.com > > > > //// \\\ > > ////-@@\\\ > > (((( 7 ))) > > ((( <> )))) > > ) (((((( > > /----\ /---\)) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > h-costume mailing list > > h-costume@mail.indra.com > > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 10:22:24 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52EMOuh026881 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:22:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j52ELASI080389 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:21:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52EL73F035469; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:21:08 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from outbound-mail.nyc.untd.com (outbound-mail.nyc.untd.com [64.136.20.164]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j52EL0S1035320 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:21:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from penhalion@juno.com) Received: from outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com (webmail28.nyc.untd.com [10.141.27.168]) by smtpout06.nyc.untd.com with SMTP id AABBK8FPSATHZ2NA for (sender ); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:20:32 -0700 (PDT) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: fRRJgEOSsRehnOwCpkfn7yFKX6FbYEBYUjIQERM48ZGpDHVsncouYQ== Received: (from penhalion@juno.com) by webmail28.nyc.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KUHDTYZ3; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 07:20:05 PDT Received: from [24.14.7.158] by webmail28.nyc.untd.com with HTTP: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:19:56 GMT X-Originating-IP: [24.14.7.158] Mime-Version: 1.0 From: "penhalion@juno.com" Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:19:56 GMT To: h-costume@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] shot silk (was: Satin question) X-Mailer: Webmail Version 3.0 Content-Type: text/plain Message-Id: <20050602.072005.8685.247293@webmail28.nyc.untd.com> X-ContentStamp: 2:1:1726882927 X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.141.27.168|webmail28.nyc.untd.com|outbound21-sr.nyc.untd.com|penhalion@juno.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I'm not sure if this qualifies as 'shot' but there are numerous references in Queen E's Unl of various colors of cloth of gold and silver. I can think of 'Tawney cloth of gold'and 'purple cloth of gold' as two specifically, but there are pages of references to what I have always thought of as cloth with a metallic thread on one direction (weft?) and colored silk in the other direction (warp?) giving a changeable look depending on how you saw the fabric. I'm away from my books right now, but anyone with a Queen E's handy can look up the various descriptions of the fabrics. Karen Seamstrix _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 10:30:33 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52EUXen026975 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:30:33 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j52ETfT2081296 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:29:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52ETeIk041002; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:29:40 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (m08.lax.untd.com [64.136.30.71]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j52ETbIF040910 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:29:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cley@juno.com) Received: from m08.lax.untd.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by m08.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABBK8F7DAXV88HA for (sender ); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:28:51 -0700 (PDT) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: QHEuP/IhRKXTJ0EJwxwhgrotzLdhKW6cSao+6l5/hDk= Received: (from cley@juno.com) by m08.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id KUHEBT6H; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 07:28:44 PDT To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:13:07 -0700 Message-ID: <20050602.072825.2820.1.Cley@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-20 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Cynthia J Ley X-ContentStamp: 6:3:3951804488 X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 127.0.0.1|localhost|m08.lax.untd.com|cley@juno.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: cley@juno.com Subject: [h-cost] busk points X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Here's that lyric I was trying to remember, thanks to a madrigalist pal o' mine. Arlys > Thomas Weelkes' "Lord, When I Think". The lyrics are below, and it's > in the first verse: > > Lord, when I think what a paltery thing > is a glove or a ring or a top of a fan to brag of, > and how much a Noddy will triumph in a busk point, > snatch with the tag off, then I say > Well fare him that hath ever used close play. > > And when I see what a pitiful grace > hath a frown in the face > or a no in the lips of a Lady, > and when I had wist she would be kiss'd > when she away did go with hey ho > I end so, Never trust any woman more than you know. _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 10:31:25 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52EVPuC026986 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:31:25 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j52EUX6g081395 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:30:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52EUWXE041599; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:30:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52ES8pD039962 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:28:09 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net) Received: from 204.127.197.119 ([204.127.197.119]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with SMTP id <20050602142803015009eh41e>; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:28:03 +0000 Received: from [67.160.21.223] by 204.127.197.119; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:28:02 +0000 From: elena_o_tighearnaigh@comcast.net To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] shot silk (was: Satin question) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:28:02 +0000 Message-Id: <060220051428.26800.429F177200055199000068B022007614380809070E029D0E0A0809079BA101A10E020A040A@comcast.net> X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Dec 17 2004) X-Authenticated-Sender: ZWxlbmFfb190aWdoZWFybmFpZ2hAY29tY2FzdC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I know that there are sources for similar fabrics in Italian city states as well...I'll have to find my books...they are still in boxes.. -- Slan go foill Elena ÓTighearnaigh Átha An Ri Emer's Needle Wares -------------- Original message -------------- > > I'm not sure if this qualifies as 'shot' but there are numerous references in > Queen E's Unl of various colors of cloth of gold and silver. I can think of > 'Tawney cloth of gold'and 'purple cloth of gold' as two specifically, but there > are pages of references to what I have always thought of as cloth with a > metallic thread on one direction (weft?) and colored silk in the other direction > (warp?) giving a changeable look depending on how you saw the fabric. I'm away > from my books right now, but anyone with a Queen E's handy can look up the > various descriptions of the fabrics. > > > Karen > Seamstrix > _______________________________________________ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 10:45:26 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52EjPI1027106 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:45:26 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j52Eih3D082958 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:44:43 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52EifUW051815; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:44:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from smtp803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (smtp803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com [217.12.12.140]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j52Eiabe051655 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:44:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from suzi@suziclarke.co.uk) Received: (qmail 60847 invoked from network); 2 Jun 2005 14:44:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO solena.suziclarke.co.uk) (h-costume@indra.com@217.44.108.139 with poptime) by smtp803.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 2005 14:44:29 -0000 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050602154110.016037d8@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: mail.suziclarke.co.uk:suziclarkeuk-mail@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 15:42:20 +0100 To: Historical Costume From: Suzi Clarke Subject: Re: [h-cost] shot silk (was: Satin question) In-Reply-To: <20050602.072005.8685.247293@webmail28.nyc.untd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.85.1, clamav-milter version 0.85 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO At 14:19 02/06/2005 +0000, you wrote: >I'm not sure if this qualifies as 'shot' but there are numerous references >in Queen E's Unl of various colors of cloth of gold and silver. I can >think of 'Tawney cloth of gold'and 'purple cloth of gold' as two >specifically, but there are pages of references to what I have always >thought of as cloth with a metallic thread on one direction (weft?) and >colored silk in the other direction (warp?) giving a changeable look >depending on how you saw the fabric. I'm away from my books right now, but >anyone with a Queen E's handy can look up the various descriptions of the >fabrics. Shot silk is also called "changeable" - as in Shakespeare. Can't remember the full quote but he talks of making a doublet of changeable taffeta (which would have been silk.) Suzi _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 10:51:01 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52Ep00N027154 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:51:01 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j52EnsZm083399 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:49:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52EnmC7055214; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:49:52 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from hotmail.com (bay17-f3.bay17.hotmail.com [64.4.43.53]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52EnSC0054824 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:49:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from marccarlson20@hotmail.com) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 07:49:23 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 129.244.6.213 by by17fd.bay17.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:49:23 GMT X-Originating-IP: [129.244.6.213] X-Originating-Email: [marccarlson20@hotmail.com] X-Sender: marccarlson20@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <200506020856.j528tujn086958@net.indra.com> From: "Marc Carlson" To: h-costume@indra.com Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:49:23 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Jun 2005 14:49:23.0416 (UTC) FILETIME=[43FF9580:01C56782] X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/907/Thu Jun 2 06:50:12 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/907/Thu Jun 2 06:50:12 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE:on the influence of weapons use and pockets X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: Stephanie Smith >Why do you think this? Certainly there have been >points in history in which military "style" has >influenced civilian style (eg: late 1990's, when camos >were cool, Regency/Napoleonic times, when ladies wore >Scarlet outfits with gold frogging-- or is that >another urban legend I believe in? *g*)... why would >influence due to function be so very different? >... Simply as an example of military wear influencing style (there are many others): The introduction of the raised stacked heel in Europe for men's shoes around 1600 seems to have been brought in with the fashion of emulating the Turkish riding boot. Women's shoes traditionally have a carved solid core heel with a heel cover, probably ultimately derived from the patten. Then of course, there are modern cargo pants -- those pockets were originally put there so soldiers could store more "stuff", like grenades and amunition, in easy to reach places... At least that's what *I* used them for :) Marc _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 10:54:24 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52EsOGO027176 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:54:24 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j52ErUWA083906 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:53:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52ErUu3058042; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:53:30 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from imo-m23.mx.aol.com (imo-m23.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.4]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52ErQAn057943 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 08:53:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from Cheryldee@aol.com) Received: from Cheryldee@aol.com by imo-m23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r1.7.) id 6.1e4.3cc76032 (4468) for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:53:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Cheryldee@aol.com Message-ID: <1e4.3cc76032.2fd0775a@aol.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:53:14 EDT Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths, dogs and petticoats (just for fun...) To: h-costume@indra.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5037 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/907/Thu Jun 2 06:50:12 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/907/Thu Jun 2 06:50:12 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO In a message dated 6/2/2005 7:22:31 AM Mountain Daylight Time, lalahcatlady@netscape.com writes: I wouldn't want to carry a critter around with me, but a half dozen cats beats an electric blanket any cold night!! Apparently, Mary Queen of Scots brought her little dog along with her to her execution hidden under her petticoat. No one knew it was there until her head was removed, upon which the dog became extremely distressed and began wailing. This is not an urban legend, I believe, as I came across it in a history of the Tudor family by a reputable historian. But who knows? Cheryl Odom _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 12:15:00 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52GF0LM027806 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 12:15:00 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j52GE0Mr092249 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:14:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52GDvZx022925; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:13:57 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from pop03.mail.atl.earthlink.net (pop03.mail.atl.earthlink.net [207.69.200.48]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52GDrxx022883 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:13:54 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from claning@igc.org) Received: from wamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.224.28]) by pop03.mail.atl.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #10) id 1DdsKP-0001Qx-00 for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 12:13:53 -0400 Message-ID: <27419409.1117728833111.JavaMail.root@wamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:13:53 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Chris Laning To: Historical Costume Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Earthlink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/907/Thu Jun 2 06:50:12 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/907/Thu Jun 2 06:50:12 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: Subject: [h-cost] RE:on the influence of weapons use and pockets X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >From: Stephanie Smith >Why do you think this? Certainly there have been >points in history in which military "style" has >influenced civilian style (eg: late 1990's, when camos >were cool, Regency/Napoleonic times, when ladies wore >Scarlet outfits with gold frogging-- or is that >another urban legend I believe in? *g*)... why would >influence due to function be so very different? >... Certainly military style has influenced civilian styles in many times and places. But a good many costume practices are demonstrably awkward, inconvenient and impractical, and people still do them because they're "fashionable." So explanations of clothing bits that claim a specific practical reason (such as interfering with drawing a sword) are always worth looking at twice before assuming they're true (starting with asking whether the clothing innovation and the supposed practical reason are from the same time period...). And of course, some _are_ true. :) As for the continued popularity of hanging pockets even after built-in pockets were invented -- if I had to speculate, I'd say one major advantage for the fashion-conscious is that they don't affect the "hang" of the garment as much. Putting something heavy or large in a built-in pocket can create a visible bulge, if one cares about such things. With a hanging pocket, if the garments aren't closely fitted you can practically carry a partridge in a pear tree without it showing nearly as much :) My Elizabethan farthingale has pockets built into it that hang *inside* the hoops, for that reason, and they hold my checkbook and wallet, handkerchiefs, spectacles, pens, etc. etc. (not that I can document farthingale pockets, but they're certainly practical). ____________________________________________________________ 0 Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 12:18:36 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52GIaeZ027857 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 12:18:36 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j52GHc7t092643 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:17:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52GHcfs026020; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:17:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web53204.mail.yahoo.com (web53204.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.39.220]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j52GHZIW025925 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:17:36 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from gythaofnorthumbria@yahoo.com) Received: (qmail 20799 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Jun 2005 16:17:30 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=As6eqHcIR5+Ypl6dfGfdCk7WvXL5+ZTcUvqvW17+HDBCkBIJEgVgEaEmefZHm96E5gyUTnlwD8JSwqOPyG3PKVecZnU7rV74946NPgRZcoAeqYWNXRlsR7nXZceF+40JuRUkU7TKuboIZbcvwKnGTW88KvrKOmFQHQ4t11jEj5g= ; Message-ID: <20050602161730.20797.qmail@web53204.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.118.107.12] by web53204.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 09:17:30 PDT Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 09:17:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Gytha Stonegrinder Subject: Re: [h-cost] Costuming myths (just for fun...) To: Historical Costume In-Reply-To: <200506012309.44166.cathy@thyrsus.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/907/Thu Jun 2 06:50:12 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/907/Thu Jun 2 06:50:12 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO I am traveling right now without that book... I will check it when I return in mid-June... I read the entire book and my impression was that there are actually pockets and not just slits, but I could be wrong. Gytha Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote:On Wednesday 01 June 2005 6:46 pm, Gytha Stonegrinder wrote: [snip] > I can say that in the book "Woven into the Earth" > there are pictures of actual 12-13th century gowns with side pockets... > some in the gore seam and some in the side seam. [rest snipped] Where? I have "Woven Into the Earth" and I don't see anything that demonstrates the existence of modern, integral-to-the-garment pockets. The discussion on p. 94 does refer to "pocket slits", but that could refer to slits made so that pouches or pockets on a string (such as the 18th c ones) worn underneath could be easily reached. -- Cathy Raymond "So what if the universe is a pointless mass of hydrogen refuse powered by entropy. I'm spreading ketchup on a rubber duck, and after that I'm going to brush its teeth. So there."-- Rob Landley _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 13:25:59 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52HPxNa028497 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:25:59 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j52HOrV0001182 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:24:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52HOoQR081206; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:24:50 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from audi.websitewelcome.com (audi.websitewelcome.com [67.19.210.130]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52HOkKp081149 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:24:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from sfarmer@goldsword.com) Received: from cpanel by audi.websitewelcome.com with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DdtQq-00011u-JA; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 12:24:36 -0500 Received: from 127.0.0.1 ([127.0.0.1]) by www.goldsword.com (Horde) with HTTP for ; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 12:24:36 -0500 Message-ID: <20050602122436.qk9jdz3w71fk0ssg@www.goldsword.com> Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 12:24:36 -0500 From: "Susan B. Farmer" To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE:on the influence of weapons use and pockets References: <27419409.1117728833111.JavaMail.root@wamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <27419409.1117728833111.JavaMail.root@wamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.0) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - audi.websitewelcome.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - indra.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [32001 32001] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - goldsword.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/907/Thu Jun 2 06:50:12 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/907/Thu Jun 2 06:50:12 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Quoting Chris Laning : > As for the continued popularity of hanging pockets even after > built-in pockets were invented -- if I had to speculate, I'd say one > major advantage for the fashion-conscious is that they don't affect > the "hang" of the garment as much. Putting something heavy or large > in a built-in pocket can create a visible bulge, if one cares about > such things. With a hanging pocket, if the garments aren't closely > fitted you can practically carry a partridge in a pear tree without > it showing nearly as much :) My Elizabethan farthingale has pockets > built into it that hang *inside* the hoops, for that reason, and they > hold my checkbook and wallet, handkerchiefs, spectacles, pens, etc. > etc. (not that I can document farthingale pockets, but they're > certainly practical). OOh, tell me more! This sounds like a much better solution in some ways than a belt pouch! Jerusha ----- Susan Farmer sfarmer@goldsword.com University of Tennessee Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 13:30:02 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52HU2H0028538 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:30:02 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j52HTIjV001827 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:29:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52HTHY2085190; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:29:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from ylpvm15.prodigy.net (ylpvm15-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.57.46]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52HTDhP085124 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:29:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kayta@frys.com) Received: from pimout7-ext.prodigy.net (pimout7-int.prodigy.net [207.115.4.147]) by ylpvm15.prodigy.net (8.12.10 outbound/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j52HTHNs008165 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:29:18 -0400 X-ORBL: [69.107.95.221] Received: from thelema.frys.com (adsl-69-107-95-221.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [69.107.95.221]) by pimout7-ext.prodigy.net (8.12.10 milter /8.12.10) with ESMTP id j52HT7KF317764 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:29:12 -0400 Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20050602101507.024ea788@mail.frys.com> X-Sender: kayta@mail.frys.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:16:07 -0700 To: Historical Costume From: Carolyn Kayta Barrows Subject: Re: [h-cost] on the influence of weapons use and pockets In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/907/Thu Jun 2 06:50:12 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/907/Thu Jun 2 06:50:12 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO >When male and female button direction was discussed on this list several >years ago, I quoted the assertion from a boys' book of my father's, circa >1917, that men's coats buttoned left over right so the sword would not >catch in the opening. It was agreed that this doesn't make sense - when >you draw a sword, you don't pull it across your front. I thought a "cross-draw" did exactly that. This is also why, I heard, the woman walks on the man's right, so he can draw his sword and not clip her with the point. CarolynKayta Barrows dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian www.FunStuft.com //// \\\ ////-@@\\\ (((( 7 ))) ((( <> )))) ) (((((( /----\ /---\)) _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 13:44:04 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52Hi4nr028686 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:44:04 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j52HhHaT003411 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:43:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52HhGKI096588; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:43:16 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from vienna (pool-70-22-244-164.bos.east.verizon.net [70.22.244.164]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52HhD4e096486 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:43:15 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from cedar@interlog.com) Received: from cedar by vienna with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Ddtim-0004jJ-6g for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 13:43:08 -0400 Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:43:08 -0400 From: Christine Robb To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] RE:on the influence of weapons use and pockets Message-ID: <20050602174308.GW10088@vienna> Mail-Followup-To: Christine Robb , Historical Costume References: <27419409.1117728833111.JavaMail.root@wamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <27419409.1117728833111.JavaMail.root@wamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/907/Thu Jun 2 06:50:12 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/907/Thu Jun 2 06:50:12 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO On Thu, Jun 02, 2005 at 09:13:53AM -0700, Chris Laning wrote: > As for the continued popularity of hanging pockets even after > built-in pockets were invented -- if I had to speculate, I'd say one > major advantage for the fashion-conscious is that they don't affect > the "hang" of the garment as much. Would a hanging pocket be harder to pick, and/or more noticeable to the wearer? Christine --- A Weekend with Joseph Pimentel Toronto English Country Dancers http://www.interlog.com/~cedar _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 13:44:30 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52HiUlk028694 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:44:30 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j52HgcRX003334 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:42:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52HgbQd096055; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:42:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from vms046pub.verizon.net (vms046pub.verizon.net [206.46.252.46]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52HgWbC095990 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:42:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from r.carnegie@verizon.net) Received: from vms076.mailsrvcs.net ([192.168.1.1]) by vms046.mailsrvcs.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2 HotFix 0.04 (built Dec 24 2004)) with ESMTPA id <0IHG00EIGX6WKNS0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> for h-costume@indra.com; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 12:42:32 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2005 12:42:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Ron Carnegie Subject: Re: Re: [h-cost] on the influence of weapons use and pockets To: Historical Costume Message-id: <21146782.1117734152535.JavaMail.root@vms076.mailsrvcs.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/907/Thu Jun 2 06:50:12 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.85.1/907/Thu Jun 2 06:50:12 2005 on net.indra.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Cc: X-BeenThere: h-costume@mail.indra.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: Historical Costume List-Id: Historical Costume List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Errors-To: h-costume-bounces@indra.com Status: RO Hello, You do pull a sword across your "front" when drawing. They are commonly worn by a right hander on the left hip. I still doubt that this is really the reason though. You pull it across your frontage, BUT not across your actual front. (i.e. It is not drug across the chest itself). It seels very unlikely that reversed buttoning would affect the draw at all. It definetly would not affect the draw more than baldrics and other equipment often worn alongside swords. Personally the only clothes I recall ever having a sword tangle with has been paned trunkhose! Where a women walks in relation to a man varies with location and time, and occasionally social status. For instance today she should be away from the street, which may or may not be the right side. Again, a womens presence on my right or left would not affect my sword draw with any of my different period rigs. Cheers, Ron Carnegie >I thought a "cross-draw" did exactly that. This is also why, I heard, the >woman walks on the man's right, so he can draw his sword and not clip her >with the point. > > > CarolynKayta Barrows >dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian > www.FunStuft.com > > //// \\\ > ////-@@\\\ > (((( 7 ))) > ((( <> )))) > ) (((((( > /----\ /---\)) > >_______________________________________________ >h-costume mailing list >h-costume@mail.indra.com >http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _______________________________________________ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume From h-costume-bounces@indra.com Thu Jun 2 13:48:48 2005 Return-Path: Received: from www1.indra.com (www1.indra.com [204.144.142.3]) by sca.uwaterloo.ca (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j52Hmmxp028720 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 13:48:48 -0400 Received: from net.indra.com (net.indra.com [204.144.142.1]) by www1.indra.com (8.13.4/8.13.0) with ESMTP id j52Hm7Vn004017 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:48:07 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@indra.com) Received: from net.indra.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j52Hm5gp000812; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:48:05 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from h-costume-bounces@net.indra.com) Received: from web81610.mail.yahoo.com (web81610.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.37.127]) by net.indra.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j52Hm3Eo000706 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2005 11:48:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from valkyerie@sbcglobal.net) Message-ID: <20050602174757.85684.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [199.217.251.186] by web81610.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 02 Jun 2005 10:47:57 PDT Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 10:47:57 -0700 (PDT) From: R