From: Gretchen Miller Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1993 18:50:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 18, 12/14/93 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 18, December 14, 1993 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu For archives of this digest, send mail to close@lunch.asd.sgi.com Thanks and Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Question and answers about pattern for Campbell tartan All about kilts Question about Viking Era Irish costume Question and answers about early 15c Women's costume Costumes from Zefferelli's Hamlet Help/demo request for 7th grade teacher in Evanston IL Request for info on costuming of horses College recommendation request Questions and answers about women's costume in ancient Greece/Rome/Mesopotamia ----------------------------------------- From: holsten@nature.Berkeley.EDU Subject: Campbell tartan Date: Mon, 13 Dec 93 14:22:22 PDT Howdy all-- I am going to be making a kilt for someone who wants to give it to her husband as a wedding present. I need a little help, though. I was planning on using the Folkwear kilt pattern--how accurate is it? Is there a difference between modern kilts and older ones? (I'm pretty sure that Really Old ones were just rectangles of fabric that were pleated every time someone wanted to put them on, right? How were Just Sort Of Old ones made?) Also, I need to find out what the Campbell tartan looks like. Does anyone have any book recommendations? (Or does anyone happen to know it offhand and can describe it to me?) And just out of curiousity--when exactly did the "one-tartan-per-family" rule start? I heard that it was actually made up by a Polish man about 200 years ago and has no real basis in local tradition. Does that story have any base in fact? Thanks for the help. Donna H. holsten@insect.berkeley.edu ----------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 16:20:49 -0600 From: raven@kehleyr.phys.ttu.edu (morgan) Subject: Viking era Irish? Hi, This is a test to make sure I got my alias defined properly, but I decided I'd ask a question anyway. I'm trying to find out what Irish people were wearing around 800-1000 AD. I'm not really having much luck. If anyone has tips on construction of such garments as well, I'd like those too. I do most of my sewing "by hand" as my sewing machine and I were never properly introduced and I still haven't figured it out. Books, tips, addresses of publishers, anything you feel I should check out that doesn't involve me do extensive travel (I can afford books, but not plane tickets) welcome. Thanks, Morgan Bottrell (raven@kehleyr.phys.ttu.edu) "Anything not nailed down is a cat toy." ----------------------------------------- From: Charlene Noto Date: Mon, 13 Dec 93 17:57:18 PST Subject: Early 1500's question I have been attempting to learn to make Tudor garb, approx. 1500-1540. Some books seem to indicate that the dress is in three pieces, bodice, overskirt and underskirt while Medieval Miscellania has the pattern sewn together in one piece. I am confused. For accuracy, should the bodice be completely finished separately from the two skirts? Also, any recommendations on gowns for that period that would be somewhat bearable in July and August? -Deirdre ----------------------------------------- Date: 13 Dec 93 13:19:26 EST From: "Gina Balestracci" Subject: kilts I made a kilt about 10 years ago after visually dissecting a kilt that a piper I knew had just received from Scotland and it was pretty easy. There was an article about kiltmaking in Threads about a year ago that seemed to make any sort of a pattern superfluous. You just get about 9 meters or tartant and pleat away! Gina balestracci@saturn.montclair.edu ----------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 18:45:46 -0500 From: Debbie Douglass Subject: Re: Campbell tartan holsten@nature.Berkeley.EDU said: >>Also, I need to find out what the Campbell tartan looks like. Does >>anyone have any book recommendations? (Or does anyone happen to know it >>offhand and can describe it to me?) I have the weaving sett patterns for the various Scottish tartans and there are five Campbell patterns listed: (Numbers indicate thread count; BK = Black, B = Blue, R = Red, G = Green, Y = Yellow, W = White, AZ = Azure) Campbell sett - B22 BK2 B2 BK2 B2 BK16 G16 BK2 G16 BK16 B16 BK2 B2 Campbell_of_Argyll sett - B2 BK2 B16 BK16 G16 BK2 W4(alternate Y) \ BK2 G16 BK16 B2 BK2 B2 BK2 B16(pivot) \ BK2 B2 BK2 B2 BK16 G16 BK2 Y4(alternate W) \ BK2 G16 BK16 B16 BK2 B2 Campbell_of_Breadalbane sett - BK6 B18 BK18 G18 Y4 G18 BK18 Campbell_of_Cawdor sett - AZ4 BK2 G16 BK16 B16 BK2 R4 Campbell_of_Loudon sett - Y4(alternate W) BK2 G24 BK24 B24 BK2 \ B4(pivot) BK2 B24 BK24 G24 BK2 W4(alternate Y) These are the sources that the person who compiled my list of tartans used: "The Tartan Waevers Guide" by James D. Scarlett, published 1985 by Shepheard-Walwyn (Publishers) Ltd., London "The Official Tartan map of tartans approved by clan chiefs, the standing council of Scottish chiefs, or the Lord Lyon King of Arms" by Dunbar and Pottinger, published by Elm Tree Books in 1976. "The Clans and Tartans of Scotland" by Robert Bain, published by Collins, London and Glasgow, in 1950 (first published 1938) -Debbie Douglass ========================================================================= May your sword always be within reach and may your foe's skill and luck be less than your own. ========================================================================= Debbie Douglass (617)552-8787 System Administrator/Programmer Institute for Space Research ddoug@DL5000.bc.edu Boston College (Bedford, MA) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Dec 93 16:43:51 PST From: "SNORTON.US.ORACLE.COM" Subject: Costumes in HAMLET Some of you may already know that costumes from the 1989 film of HAMLET starring Mel Gibson and Glenn Close were sold at auction in LA this past weekend. I was lucky enought to get two of them: the first gown Ophelia wears and Osric's costume. I bought them just because they are beautiful. This isn't a period I know much about. So, does anyone know ... how accurate were these costumes, both the designs and the fabrics? In case your wondering, the costumes worn by Close and Gibson went for VERY high prices but, the others went for rather modest amounts. I was surprised. I hoped to get Ophelia's costume but, didn't really expect to. It all happened so quickly; at first, I didn't realize it was mine! Sally Norton snorton@US.oracle.com ----------------------------------------- From: cjcannon@ucdavis.edu Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 16:38:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: Help for Teacher As I recall, there was a jr. high school teacher who's used medieval costuming, etc. to teach her class how difficult it was then, among other valuable lessons. There is a request from: [7th grade teacher] Ms. Kathleen McKenna Social Studies Teacher Baker Demonstration School National Louis University 2840 N. Sheridan Rd. Evanston, ILL 60201 USA kmck@evan1.nl.edu She includes her school telephone number: (708) 256-5150, x2240 or x2383. for any info. on medieval clothing, etc. anyone would care to share with her/her classes. She's already written the "Rialto", but if you can help her, she'd be most grateful, esp. if you are in her area and can come to demonstrate live. She's hoping for a 3-4 mo. project, including research on feudal lore, castles, heraldry, the Church, Japan in the Middle Ages, the Islamic world of that period, etc. I felt some of us here might be able to help, though I'm too far away to do so. Thanks for trying and for listening.--Carol ----------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Dec 93 16:58:55 PST From: peter@imatron.COM (Peter Cooke [Orca]) Subject: kilts DISCLAIMER: I do not profess to be of any great historical knowledge but this is what my Scottish Renaissance uses and the Irish Renaissance groups seem very close to what we do. My scottish ren group uses 4inch pleats. As alleged by my group: Every morning The person would take a 10 yard plaid. A full 60 inch. material fold it in half pleat every 4 inches for a little over the waist diameter of the person wearing the klit. The person would then slide a belt under the kilt at the mid point. ------------------------------------------------- | | | pleat | This portion goes up to shoulder | | then down back | =================belt============================ | | | | | | | ------------------------------------------------ The man would lie down on the kilt, face down at the edge (bare bottom up), then the gentleman and groom would roll over onto his back. Of course it was the groom's responsibility to keep the pleats every 4 inches. The groom would then secure the belt, the gentelman would rise allowing the top half of the kilt to fall just beneath/above knee length. You should know that in the scottish plaids ALL of the vertical lines should be hidden in the pleat and show only when walking. The persons who pleat theirs every moring in my guild take approx 1.5 hours to pleat their kilt. A few have had t decided to run a single stich down the middle to keep the pleat and remember where the middle of the kilt is. The most traditonal kilts go around the waist twice then circles across the torso from one sholder to opposite waist twice then dangles off the back down to mid calf. Look for picture of ROBROY MC-GREGOR. The modern and old tartan material have changed drastically. Most will look a like. Prices do varry greatly. And you may have or want to purchase a whole bolt. ( Do if you make a ren. outfit) A whole bolt generally make 1 to 2 kilts of the ren verarity. Sell the second kilt off. The McGregor kilt in the bay area will sell between $100-$150. (NOT much profit, but the difficult part is keeping the pleat every 4 inches while stiching.) Then comes the sporin belt(contains tobacco, wiskey, ONIONS, verious roots) usually make out of badger or leather. then comes the genelmen belt to his purse (another large sachel for FOOD/coins) and small daggers (any small dagger 8inches to 2 feet). Over this the gentleman would wear his sword belt). Needless to claim By the time I get this all on I imagine I look like I would be in the starting phases of pregnancy. My reference to ONIONS is the Scotts belief that onions keep the evil spirits away and is used a general cureall in the middle ages ----------------------------------------- From: Rachelle A Demunck Subject: Equestrian costumes... Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 20:42:30 -0500 (EST) > Subject: history of equestrian apparel-Book review > > Library called "Man and the Horse: An illustrated history of equestrian > apparel" by Mackay-smith, Alexander : New York Metropolitan Museum of > Art, 1984. I, too, am interested in any books that anyone can add to a list about this subject. More importantly, what I am even more interested in (fanatically so) are books about the costumes of *horses*. For example, the armor and blankets worn by the medieval jousting horses. Or the costumes of native american indians. *ALL* cultures that used the horse. I have seen very little specifically dealing with far eastern and persian cultures. (There is much about native arabian costumes, the Bedouins and such, but very little about other eastern and oriental cultures.) Does anyone else have any books (or personal knowledge) they know about that provides information about this? Rachelle DeMunck demunckr@student.msu.edu ----------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Dec 93 18:09:04 -0800 From: bino@ella.mills.edu (Kendra VanCleave) I have a couple of questions: 1) for the person writing about scottish kilts: how much fabric would i use to make an (forgive me for my horrible attempt at gaelic spelling) arisache (?) (the women's version of a kilt). also, I have seen instances where the bodice and the topskirt were sewn together, and instances where they are separate. which is accurate? (oh, silly me, this is for renaissance period) *and* which is more accurate for the topskirt: a split skirt or not? 2) i am thinking of transfering colleges (i go to mills college right now). i am a european history major, but i would like to do some minor work in costuming. can anyone recommed a college (preferable west coast and non-snow, but i'm open....) that has a good history and costuming (or just a good costuming) department? (i'm not particularly interested in san francisco state, so any other suggestions would be much appreciated :) ). note: i've never seen someone take more than 10 or 15 minutes to pleat a kilt :) -Kendra VanCleave bino@ella.mills.edu ----------------------------------------- From: J.A.Bray@bnr.co.uk Date: Tue, 14 Dec 93 09:16:57 GMT To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Viking era Irish? >I'm trying to find out what Irish people were >wearing around 800-1000 AD. Some of the viking era irish were dressed like vikings. There was a big Norse settlement at Dublin, excavations there have found caps that look similar to finds from the Viking settlement at York in England. So it depends on whether you are after costume from an area under viking influence. Margrethe Hald's book "primitive shoes" shows some distinctive irish shoe styles which match those shown in Irish Manuscripts. I'm no expert but that would suggest to me that the manuscript pictures aren't entirely copied from elsewhere and might make a good source of costume, but I don't know if the clergy dressed distinctively. I can find the complete book reference, but I think its out of print so you'd have to find a library copy somewhere. I've got a booklet somewhere from a re-enactment society I'm in that might have a few useful tips. I'll try and find it when I go home. Jennifer ----------------------------------------- From: J.A.Bray@bnr.co.uk Date: Tue, 14 Dec 93 09:21:03 GMT To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Campbell tartan There's a place somewhere in Scotland that keeps track of all the tartans and has samples and weave details etc. I know it exists because I knew a Farquahar who used them to trace his clan's tartan. I'm afraid I don't have any details on the place though. Has any one else heard of some sort of register of tartans? Jennifer ----------------------------------------- From: Susannah Gort Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1993 10:31:38 GMT Subject: Early 1500's question Charlene Noto enquired about 1500-1540s Tudor dress construction: Depends how early, and what class you want. Assuming upper servant, since that's what I usually make; nobility is the same but richer. 1495 - 1515ish We're still basically in the era of no-decent-woman-wearing-only-one-dress, although some of the posher styles don't really need an underdress. The dresses are not heavily corseted and there's no farthingale. Whether the bodice is made separately or not seems to be a personal thing; I made mine on the standard eight-panelled C15th style with the neckline re-cut to be a very wide square, i.e. no waist seam. I wear it over a similar dress with an earlier style neckline, which conveniently gives the look of those dresses with the black bands showing inside the neckline and the black V at the back - although not black. Under that I wear a high-necked lawn shift. The whole isn't _too_ hot as I used 30percent linen for the underdress (the best I could afford) and nunsveiling for the overdress. I left the overdress sleeves short, too, so I don't get boiled to death when I cook in it. circa 1530 These are the corseted dresses with the hooped or quilted petticoats. The bodice is made separately but sewn to the overskirt. An underskirt is optional, as you don't have to have the divided overskirt. You can have the bodice divided and showing a fake underbodice if you wish - probably cooler. There are infinite varieties of sleeves (I know, I'm trying to choose a design now). Underskirts, especially of expensive material, did have fake fronts, but were attached to cheaper material for the rest of the underskirt, not to the overskirt really. To make it bearable in July and August? Er, slash it to ribbons? Our lot just swelter. Susannah Bills & Bows (Stafford Household) ----------------------------------------- From: holsten@nature.Berkeley.EDU Subject: Re: kilts Date: Tue, 14 Dec 93 9:12:25 PDT Wow--thanks for the great description. The person who's getting the kilt doesn't do any re-enactment or anything, though. He's just one of those people who think it would be cool to wear a kilt. The info you gave me is really interesting, though. I didn't know that the vertical stripes were supposed to be hidden. Thanks again for the info. Donna ----------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Dec 93 11:33:53 PST From: "SNORTON.US.ORACLE.COM" Subject: Books on Kilts; Questions on Ancient Rome/Greece I found three books listed in the Amazon catalog: The Making of a Scottish Kilt by Janet Ferguson and Leslie Cannonito $15.95 Kilted Skirt Making by Janet Ferguson and Leslie Cannotito $15.95 So You're Going to Wear the Kilt by J. Charles Thompson $12.95 and one book listed in the latest Fiber Arts catalog from Wooden Porch Books: Our Scottish Distric Checks by E. S. Harrison, pub. by the Natl. Assn. of Scottish Woolen Manufacturers, Edinburgh $45.00 Now, for my question. I am looking for information on women's costumes of Ancient Rome/Greece/Mesopotamia. Does anyone have any book recommendations? Has anyone seen accurate patterns? Thanks for your help, Sally snorton@US.oracle.com ----------------------------------------- Date: Tue 14 Dec 1993 12:38 PT From: Catherine.Keegan@EMC2NCAL.IBMMAIL.COM Subject: Ancient Rome/Greece I heartily recommend Kohler's book for patterns/diagrams. I can't remember the title, but it's published by Dover. Mary Huston has a book on Roman/Greek/Byzantine costume which is unfortunately out of print, but you might still be able to find a copy. I found mine at Moe's Bookstore in Berkeley. A lot of 'ancient history' books have diagrams for togas/stolas, if you make it to Moe's, check the history section on the fourth floor. Costume is found on the second and fourth floors. Catherine syscxk@emc2ncal.ibmmail.com ----------------------------------------- From: Gregory Stapleton Date: Tue, 14 Dec 93 12:38:48 TZ Subject: RE: Early 1500's question My wife worked on one of these and from her research, she discovered that the overskirt has a bodice, as does the underskirt. Essentially two dresses, one light weight underskirt with a heavier, finer overskirt. One suggested reason for this is that you could wear the overskirt many times without having to wash it, while changing the underskirt. The medieval miscellania pattern is a modern convention for ease of construction. It is not truly period. Gawaine ---------- ------------------------End of Volume 18-----------------------------