From: Gretchen Miller Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 19:02:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 213, 1/20/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 213, January 20, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: 19C man's wallet patterns Brother Cadfael ISO Pointers for 16C men's costume ISO computer drawing programs for the human figure Quilt fabrics of the 1830s Question and Answer(s):What is Blackwork Question and answer: Works on gloves Lost mail Queen Margot Smithsonian fabrics and good pattern dating sources ---------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Jan 95 10:04:01 PST From: "cynthia" Subject: Re: men's 19th c wallets Paul, Re: mid-19c men's wallets. I suppose you mean the kind that go inside the jacket pocket (not the hip pocket .. when was that invented, anyway? Gold rush era by Levi-Strauss?). The Peck & Snyder catalog reprint (a Minnisota mailorder co very active in the 1860s) has gone AWOL. So I looked in the Weinstock & Lubin Co. catalog (1891 Sacramento CA which is entirely too late but WTH) just to see what there was in the way of fun things to put in men's pockets: Oblong Memorandum Book (gilt edges, leather bound, elastic closure, w/ inside pocket for notes $.40) Receipt Book Men's Wallet & Bill Books (no illustration) Vest Pocket Memorandum Book Silicate Pocket Slate Men's Companion, a toilet kit Leather Cigar case (also fine leather & alligator) Card case (floral design worked in silk on inside flap w/ beveled mirror, comb & nail pick) Card case in seal skin Substantial Dark Red Coin Purse Money Bags & Gold Dust Bags (and "another larger and better" for $.25) Weinstock's was/is? a purveyor to the middle class. For example, they sold Roger's silverplate but no sterling silver or fine china. --cin Cynthia@caere.com ---------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 11:10:20 -0800 From: Alison Kondo Subject: Bro.Cadfael On the Hungarian production...I wasn't knocking the quality of the Hungarian staff, just remembering the Dune comments about not being able to get the fabrics they needed easily. I wondered if that might account for the uneven costuming, some really synthetic, some very handwoven-looking. I'm sorry to hear about the BBC sacking the costumers...it always seems to be the people who really do the work, not administrators, who get hit the hardest in any layoffs. The one still I've seen of "Queen Margot" didn't impress me much. The actress was wearing a chemiseless, open to the waist(sort of held together by lacing), way off the shoulder dress. I don't know the context of the shot, but the character was identified as the queen. I'm crossing my fingers that this is just some sort of publicity clip & that the film itself will be better. Alison ---------------------------- From: cpecourt@mhv.net Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 17:12:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Men's Costume 1500's Hello My boyfriend and I were watching Highlander 2 the other day and he loved Sean Connery's costume, the red dublet and pants. Can anyone say for sure that that was a doublet, I think it was as it looked like my bodice with sleeves attached and some other modifications. And can anyone point me to good sources for pictures on what men's costumes looked like in that time frame. My boyfirend says he will do many things for me, but wearing tights isn't one of them.. so we need to find other things that were worn. Patterns would be great..pictures great too. Thanks for any help you can give!! Chantal ps. the german Ren dress that I needed to attach that skirt to came out FABULOUS! Thanks for your help! ---------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 20:03:01 -0600 (CST) From: Robin Findlay Subject: computer drawing I am still looking for a computer drawing program to let me draw the human figure. alter it (fatter -skinner) (taller-shorter) or just reposition the arms legs or head. when I'm doing a show with 40 or more characters I don't have time to draw that many. Or redraw after the director meeting( you know what I mean). Make my life easier somebody tell me that this kind of animal is out there somewhere. e-mail me or post thanks robin ---------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 00:01:12 -0500 (EST) From: "K.C. Kozminski" Subject: Re: Bro Cadfael Just a tid-bit on the customs tangent: it does play a major role in budgets as far as Mexico is concerned, also in some parts of Cananda. Ten years ago, when I worked in Cancun, I had to convince customs officials that the things I sent off for could not be found in Mexico, elswise they would not allow me to import them. Strangely enough, goods from Europe were cheaper than those imported from the States. I keep in my portfolio a picture from a production of "Notre Dame de Paris" that I designed and built. I love to tell about the hennins (15th century dunce-caps) that I made by cutting the brims off sombreos and covering the crowns. Sombreos cost about $.25 each, and bucram was not to be found. Creativity is often enhanced by a tight budget! KC Don't think of it as aging, think of it as "Attaining Mythic Stature" kc/Roen who is, herself ---------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 23:29:39 -0800 From: Chris Laning Subject: Quilt fabrics of 1830s To-HC@ Tuesday, January 17, 1995 p.1 On January 3rd, Fran Grimble noted (in relation to the "Smithsonian" fabrics from RJR Fashion Fabrics: > In the course of examining the Patchworks swatches I realized that > fabrics from an 1830 quilt would be accurate for 1820s or earlier > clothing rather than 1830s, since the originals would have been saved-up > scraps or parts of worn garments. Actually, in this case, it probably *would* be 1830s fabric, since it was most likely bought especially for the quilt. If you have sources to compare 1820s and '30s fabric, I'd be interested to see which it was. One of the prevailing myths about quiltmaking is that it originated as a "salvage craft" and used primarily - - or exclusively - - pieces of worn-out garments. But as recently as the last five to ten years, evidence that this is'nt so has finally percolated from the scholarly circles where it originated into articles in the popular press. In fact, not only surviving examples, but also contemporary documents, seem to show that patchwork quilts as we know them originated as a luxury craft among the upper class, using small quantities of very expensive fabrics and appliqueing them or piecing them with other fabrics to make a unified design (such as a "Tree of Life") for the top of a bed. Only later (in the early 1800s) did this craft become widely imitated among other social classes, and in the 1840s it became *very* widespread as quilts began to be made in repeating "blocks," a much easier unit to design and make. As for fabrics - - people used what they had, of course, but while I don't want to overstate the case, there is very strong evidence that women *bought* fabric especially for quilts at least as often as they used fabric they already had on hand. This would be especially true for "masterpiece" quilts like a Star of Bethlehem. "Scrap" fabric used for quilts also tended (as it does today) to be remnants and leftovers from the *making* of clothing, rather than worn pieces. Scraps of calico for quilting mailed to sisters and cousins in the "far West" were often described in terms like "a piece of Lucy's new dress," for instance, which indicates a sewing scrap, not a worn piece, since the dress was still new! The use of already-worn fabric actually isn't very workable. The top surface of a quilt is its heaviest wear area (especially at the edges), and even with the reinforcement of batting, backing and stitching, already-worn cloth doesn't last very long in a quilt. The myth's popularity is easy to understand, of course, especially when handed down by parents/grandparents with strong memories of the Depression and other hard times when new fabric *was* hard for many people to come by. You will still find it almost universally accepted in most quilting books and magazines, except for the very most recent. After all, it's a fun myth, and it also reinforces romantic images of "the frontier" when people were brave, self-reliant, virtuous, patient, clever, and all those other virtues we love to dream about! ____________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ ---------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 06:19:16 -0800 From: jaycee@ix.netcom.com (Jane Carpenter) Subject: 16th Century "Blackwork" Embroidery Hi everyone, Does anyone have any info about a 16th century type of embroidery called "blackwork"? My friend is interested in pictures of examples and/or design patterns. Thanks, jaycee ---------------------------- From: BiddyKuo@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 09:50:16 -0500 Subject: Gloves My Fashion Design teacher has asked me to research gloves over the past centuries. I would be thankful if anyone could recommend books that have good reference material. I just recently finished researching costume history from the beginning of time until the present but do not recall coming across any specific books on gloves. I am new to this list & I as I really enjoyed my research into costume history, I am enjoying reading the discussions in this mailing list. I have been working on my Fashion Degree (nearly done) & hope to go into children's wear. While living in Hong Kong I was making, designing & selling children's costumes which would include anything from normal costumes to period costumes or outrageous. It is a fun area to work in. Thanks in advance. Cindy Kuo (BiddyKuo@aol.com) ---------------------------- From: Gregory Stapleton Date: Wed, 18 Jan 95 12:00:50 PST Subject: RE: Men's Costume 1500's Two primary books come to mind: 1) Janet Arnold, _Patterns of Fashion: 1580(?)-1620 2) Elizabethan Costuming: 1550-1580 (unsure of authors) Hope this helps, Gregory ---------- >From: > >Hello >My boyfriend and I were watching Highlander 2 the other day and >he loved Sean Connery's costume, the red dublet and pants. Can anyone say >for sure that that was a doublet, I think it was as it looked like my bodice >with sleeves attached and some other modifications. And can anyone point >me to good sources for pictures on what men's costumes looked like in >that time frame. My boyfirend says he will do many things for me, but >wearing tights isn't one of them.. so we need to find other things that >were worn. Patterns would be great..pictures great too. Thanks for any >help you can give!! >Chantal >ps. the german Ren dress that I needed to attach that skirt to came out >FABULOUS! Thanks for your help! ---------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Jan 95 12:13:39 EST From: deirdre@cybernetics.net (Charlene S- Noto) Subject: Re: 16th Century "Blackwork" Embroidery At 06:19 AM 1/18/95 -0800, Jane Carpenter wrote: >Hi everyone, > Does anyone have any info about a 16th century type of >embroidery called "blackwork"? My friend is interested in pictures of >examples and/or design patterns. > >Thanks, >jaycee > Hi Jaycee, Listed below are some books that I find helpful with Blackwork. If you need more information, please email me. -Charlene _Blackwork Embroidery_, Elizabeth Geddes and Moyra mcNeill, Dover Publications, ISBN 0-486-23245-X, Library of Congress 75-31285 _Hans Holbein the Younger_, Chamberlain, Geo. Allen & Company, 1913 _The Paintings of Hans Holbein_, Paul Ganz, Phaidon Press _English Domestic Needlework_, Hughes, Lutterworth Press, 1961 _Esemplario 1530_, Niccolo Zoppino (Graphed by Susan J. Evans), Falconwood Press _Renaissance Patterns for Lace, Embroidery and Needlepoint 1587_, Federico Vinciolo, Dover Pulications, ISBN 0-486-22438-4 _Complete Guide to Needlework_, Mary Gostelow, Chartwell Books 1982, ISBN 0-89009-597-3 _Readers's Digest Complete Guide to Needlework_, The Readers' Digest Assocication, Inc., ISBN 0-895-77059-8 =============================================================== Charlene Noto Internet: deirdre@cybernetics.net Compuserve: 75374,3154 --------------------------------------------------------------- SCA: Deirdre of Boolteens Vert, On a Chevron Or, Three Butterflies Sable, In Chief Erminois =============================================================== ---------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 12:23:04 -0500 (EST) From: "Jim O'Connor" Subject: Re. Bro. Cadfael >From perusing the credits the production is by Central Independent Television, rather than being a BBC production. Also the costume designer is credited as Mary Hruby. The credits show a smattering of Hungarian names along with mostly British names, unlike for instance the Maigret series in which most of the off-screen credits were Hungarian. It is a good little mystery series but it could almost be set in any period before the development of modern communications and forensics. One of the more glaring 'modernisms' is when Cadfeal asks the nun "at what hour (i.e. time) did the Baron leave" she replies "after 6". While it was possible to keep time to the hour it was only attempted in a place like a monastery. Even there the monks would tend to refer to the time of prayers e.g. Matins, Vespers etc... The ordinary folk would probably refer to sun-based time such as 'just before first light' etc... In one of his series, the historian James Burke recounts that when a monastery caught fire; some of the monks ran to the clock (horologium in Latin). Because the clock was a water-run device and thus also served as a fire extinguisher. Makes one wonder where the expression 'time to burn' comes from? ---------------------------- From: SLNZC@cc.usu.edu Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 11:08:14 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Hi. Could anyone out there who was interested in my thesis on English Renaissance sumptuary laws and had been corresponding with me please send me another message via private e-mail. My university decided to install a new mail program over Christmas break and it deleted all of my saved messages, which contained all of my e-mail addresses. Sorry to everyone else- this is the only way for me to reach the people to whom I had been writing. By the way--I saw the movie _Queen Margot_. Interesting plot in the vein of _A Lion in Winter_ (royal dysfunctional family plots against each other), though it can't quite compare to that wonderful movie. The costumes, however, were HORRIBLE! Very much "prom queen" meets the French Renaissance with some baroque influences thrown in for show! I read an interview with the designer, who said she did not go with period costumes simply because she didn't like the looks of them. No chemises, no hats, too many bare shoulders and bare breasts, no farthingales, I could go on for quite awhile! Did anyone else see the movie/have the same impression? Theresa SLNZC@cc.usu.edu ---------------------------- From: jeff.sargent@hmg.com Date: Wed, 18 Jan 95 09:34:55 Subject: Re: computer drawing >I am still looking for a computer drawing program to let me draw the >human figure. alter it (fatter -skinner) (taller-shorter) or just >reposition the arms legs or head. >when I'm doing a show with 40 or more characters I don't have time >to draw that many. Or redraw after the director meeting( you know what I mean). > >Make my life easier somebody tell me that this kind of animal is out >there somewhere. > >e-mail me or post >thanks >robin **************************************************************************** You could try MacroMedia's LifeForms - it's a "human" animation program. You are given a 3-d wirecage figure that you can edit [taller, fatter, slimmer, republican ( this is done by removing it's limbs and making it crawl on it's self-serving belly)]. It also has controls that allow the rotation of any of it's joints, much like a wooden artist's model (can never remember it's name - something like "macquee") allowing for posing. We have it for the Mac - I don't know if it's available for IBM. Bon chance. JefSargent ver 3.1 - Your complete annoyance provider. __________________________________________________________________________ Jeffery Linden Sargent (510) 601-0900 x310 Sr. MultiMedia Animator jsargent@HMG.COM The HyperMedia Group 5900 Hollis Ste O Emeryville, CA 94608 ---------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 15:55:02 -0500 (EST) From: Elizabeth McMahon Subject: Re: Films & Cadfael On 12 Jan 1995, Mrs C S Yeldham wrote: > > I have just seen '1492, Conquest of Paradise' with Gerard Depardieu. > Interesting - I was very uncertain about Isabella's gowns. Were they > wearing farthingales in Spain in the 1490s? The skirts were surely too > wide to be supported on anything else. In England I would give a > definate NO, but maybe in Spain they were - any comments? One of the things I saw in some of the trade publications where they interviewed the designer for these costumes that I could see no evidence for (anyone else out there?) was that he chose to use off the shoulder (as in the whole neckline in the same plane as the front part of a normally square neckline, not just straps far out on the shoulder) necklines for scenes where Columbus and Isabella were in an intimate family settting. His comment was that he was trying to differentiate these scenes from the heavy ceremonial dress of Court occaisions. The scene the magazine showed (if I remember correctly) looked somewhat like a copy of something Eleanor of Toledo-ish with a straight across neckline, and her shoulders covered in a gold lattice net partlet-oid. This really diminished my interest in the movie (which was mostly for the costumes, really), and I still haven't gotten around to renting it yet. I just want ed to thank Mrs Yeldham for putting her finger on the thing about "Cadfael" that I tried to express and didn't do well on. There wasn't enough turmoil or politics happening outside (or inside for that matter) the Abbey. It seemed much too Merrie old England for my impression of the books. Thank you for your wonderful comments! -*-*- Beth in the office 212-741-4400 ---------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 18:36:26 -0600 (CST) From: Deb Subject: RE: Cadfael >I just want ed to thank Mrs Yeldham for putting her finger on the thing >about "Cadfael" that I tried to express and didn't do well on. There >wasn't enough turmoil or politics happening outside (or inside for that >matter) the Abbey. It seemed much too Merrie old England for my >impression of the books. Thank you for your wonderful comments! In the books: except for times when the political fighting actually occurred in this shire, most of the politics which the book DOES include would be too difficult to cover in a 1 hour TV show. It's all just "talk" and "thoughts". I'd have to reread this particular book, but I only recall one book where the fighting was close enough to Shrewsbury to warrant the effort to get it "across" to a viewer. One has to drop things not relevant to the main plot, usually! I know when I watch a show or movie where I *haven't* read the book, I spend most of the time asking my neighbor which person is which, let alone what subtle by-plots I'm not quite catching. Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov ---------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Jan 95 19:19:32 PST From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Smithsonian fabrics and miscellaneous Re Chris Laning's message about whether the Smithsonian 1830 quilt could have been made from 1820s fabric: I mentioned that the quilt could have been made from "saved-up scraps _or_ parts of worn garments." By saved-up scraps, I meant "leftovers from the making of clothing." However, although I wouldn't be surprised if some fabrics were bought new for the quilt, for the middle as well as the lower classes the goal of using fabric as economically as possible persisted well into the Victorian period. I'm not an expert on quilts, but the better parts of a worn garment were often used in another garment. A reasonable amount of use can be gotten out of a good-quality partly-worn fabric. More important for fabric-dating purposes, the publicity about the "reproduction" fabrics implies the Smithsonian has firmly dated the quilt to 1830, not "some time in the 1830s." If this dating is correct the fabric could have been from the year 1830, assuming it took less than a year to make the quilt. But it could not have been from later in the 1830s, no matter whether new fabric, scraps, or worn fabric was used. I mentioned two good textile dating sources in my previous post: _Textile Designs_, by Susan Meller and Joost Elffers, and _Fabric of Society_, by Jane Tozer and Sarah Levitt. The Victoria and Albert Museum has also published a series of books showing examples from their textile collection, including _Design for Printed Textiles in England from 1750 to 1850_. I suggest that anyone who wants to evaluate the Smithsonian/RJR fabrics get the swatches from Patchworks and compare them to the examples in these books. For dresses (which I then realized I don't have time to make up any time soon) I ordered two of the Smithsonian fabrics, two of the reproduction fabrics from the 1840 Tiger Lily quilt, and one other fabric. Patchworks sent everything in a few days except one of the Smithsonian fabrics, which they said would arrive in another 10 days. On another topic: I just bought the new edition of _Men's Garments 1830-1900: A Guide to Pattern Cutting_, by R. I. Davis. I'm kind of sorry, since the new edition has exactly the same patterns--they just added some fashion plate reprints and switched to a paperback format. Anyway, I'd like to sell my old hardcover edition, which I think cost about $30. It's in great shape. I'd ask about $15. If you're interested in this book (or in the 30" unworn reddish blonde wig I mentioned) please send e-mail to aterry@teknowledge.com Fran Grimble ---------------------------- From: bruceb@skypoint.com Date: Wed, 18 Jan 95 22:32:01 -0600 Subject: Re: computer drawing Robin, > > I am still looking for a computer drawing program to let me draw the > human figure. alter it (fatter -skinner) (taller-shorter) or just > reposition the arms legs or head. > when I'm doing a show with 40 or more characters I don't have time to > draw that many. Or redraw after the director meeting( you know what I mean). > > Make my life easier somebody tell me that this kind of animal is out > there somewhere. Yes, I can say with certainty, that such a beast is out there, but I can not recall the name / manufacturer. It came out some time ago and I remember reading about it in the computer trade mags. It was intended to render realistic human figures for inclusion in other drawings - i.e. as an addon to an architecture program, drafting, or other drawing program. You might want to check with one of the drawing groups (sorry, can't make any suggestions) for more info. > > e-mail me or post > thanks > robin bruce Internet: bruceb@skypoint.com | think, think ... You want my opinions? You can | think, think, think have them. Nobody else wants them. | --Pooh ---------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 22:25:43 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Gloves On Wed, 18 Jan 1995 BiddyKuo@aol.com wrote: > My Fashion Design teacher has asked me to research gloves over the past > centuries. I would be thankful if anyone could recommend books that have > good reference material. I just recently finished researching costume > history from the beginning of time until the present but do not recall coming > across any specific books on gloves. I am new to this list & I as I really > enjoyed my research into costume history, I am enjoying reading the > discussions in this mailing list. I have seen specific books on gloves but don't have any bibliographic information to hand. (Those books tend to start a few centuries after my period of interest.) I can tell you of a few relatively early sources. There is an extant pair of embroidered and jeweled gloves made in the early 13th century in Palermo for the Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II. The best pictures I've seen of them are in: Christensen, Sigrid Muller & Shuette, Marie. "The Art of Embroidery" Thames and Hudson, 1964. A fairly recent publication entitled "A History of Handknitting" (sorry, no further data -- I just loaned out my copy of it) has pictures of some exquisitely fine knitted silk gloves from 16th century Spain. Most "History of Gloves" books start with some 16th century examples and work from there. I don't know how many earlier examples are available, but you can do some research from portraits and other representations. The Luttrell Psalter (early 14th century), for example, has a number of drawings showing farm workers wearing a sort of glove-mitten with a separate thumb and forefinger but the other three fingers kept together. Heather Rose Jones ---------------------------- End of Volume 213 -----------------------