From: Gretchen Miller Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 16:57:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 216, 1/31/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 216, January 31, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Vintage dance classes, SF Bay area Using mail order Button history questions and answers Janet Arnold's Address ISO American costume sources Bad experiences with Past Patterns ---------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Jan 95 18:53:48 PST From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Vintage dance classes Here is another ongoing class that wasn't on Cindy's list. VINTAGE DANCE CLASSES The East Bay Vintage Dance Society schedule for February is: January 28, Allan Terry and Fran Grimble; redowa variations and mazurka variations February 4, Stan Isaacs; ragtime dance February 11, Terry & Grimble; hesitation waltz February 18, Isaacs; ragtime February 25, Terry & Grimble; ragtime 5/4 waltz (half and half) All classes will be held on Saturday mornings, 10:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. at St. Johns Presbyterian Church 2727 College Avenue, Room 203 Berkeley, California The price is $6/person. No partner required. This is a regular series of classes; ragtime teaching will probably continue through March and include maxixe and tango. For April, we have tentatively scheduled 1920s dance including blues variations. For further information on the East Bay classes, call Clare Peterson at (510) 223-8233. We (Terry & Grimble) also give workshops for events and act as guest instructors for other classes. We research original manuals and so can teach some material not taught before in the San Francisco Bay Area. In addition to Victorian, ragtime, and 1920s dance, we teach late 16th-century Renaissance (the Caroso/Negri/Lupi tradition), the easier baroque dances (including the minuet and Guillame's allemande), and Regency waltzes and set dances with authentic steps. If you're interested in any of these, please send e-mail to aterry@teknowledge.com. ---------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Jan 95 19:03:19 PST From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Another SF Bay Area dance event The Friends of Music of the College of Notre Dame give an annual Viennese ball (Victorian) around Valentine's Day. This year the ball will be on February 11 from 8:30 to midnight, at the Ralston Ballroom at the College of Notre Dame in Belmont. Tickets are $45/person. For information call 415/508-3597. The orchestra plays a lot of Strauss and similar music, mostly waltzes but also some polkas and schottisches. Their tempos are pretty good for an orchestra that doesn't specialize in dance. The ball is held in what used to be a mansion, so the venue is fancy. There is a large spread of appetizers, cookies and champagne--I don't go to dances for the food but most people like the refreshments. Fran Grimble ---------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Jan 95 19:07:42 PST From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Mail order I disagree with Jim's idea that a company that doesn't take credit cards is a bad risk. Lots of perfectly reputable businesses don't, including my favorite haridresser, my favorite science fiction bookstore, and some of my favorite restaurants. I believe this is because the credit card companies charge for the service, and the business usually has to pass this on to the consumer--some add an explicit surcharge for credit card orders. ---------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Jan 95 19:40:59 PST From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Mail order Sorry, I had a problem while writing this post and may have sent a half-written message. I disagree with Jim's opinion that a company that doesn't accept credit cards is a bad risk. Some highly reputable businesses don't, including my hairdresser, my favorite science fiction bookstore, and some of my favorite restaurants. I think this is because credit card companies charge for the service. The charge is usually passed on to the consumer, implicitly or explicitly. Some companies give discounts for payment by check. But some just choose to keep their prices low by avoiding the whole thing. Also, you do see newspaper articles about people who gave credit card numbers by phone, and whose numbers were fraudulently used by third parties who overheard and recorded them. Or even misused by the business they called. I think this may have made credit card phone orders less popular--somebody who has your number does have some power over you. Though my credit card number has never been fraudulently used, I can tell one story about a problem with giving it. It also illustrates Jim's suggestion (which I completely agree with) that all transactions be in writing. An editor once called to give me a rush assignment to write an article on vintage clothing that _had_ to be in a specific issue of a magazine. In other words, a tight deadline. To research this article I needed a recently published book which I had seen at Lacis. They are about an hour's drive from where I live. I didn't have time to go there, but mail within this area only takes a day, two days at most. I called and explained why I needed the book, saying "I'll place a credit card phone order if you have it in stock but I can't possibly wait for a backorder." They checked the shelves and said "Yes, we have it, we'll send it right away." Two days later, I received a notice from Lacis saying thye'd backordered the book and that it would arrive in 6-8 weeks (well after my deadline). I called, confirmed they didn't have it, and cancelled the order. I then called Amazon Drygoods, who had the book in stock and shipped it immediately. So I wrote the article and made my deadline. About two months after I'd called Lacis, I got a copy of the book from them. I called and told them about the order and why I'd cancelled it, saying I needed to return the copy and get a refund. They said "There's a ten percent restocking charge for all returns; look at the bottom of our invoice." I said, "But I cancelled this order, weeks ago." They said, "We have no record of your cancellation and we're using your credit card number to charge you for restocking." And that's what they did. Anyway--I agree there can be problems with mail order but I don't think finding out whether the company accepts credit cards is the answer. The best thing is to ask other people about (preferably recent) experiences with the company. I figure it's normal for a company to occasionally send orders late or occasionally get confused. It's the ones that take money and don't deliver the goods at all that worry me. But they're really pretty rare. Fran Grimble ---------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 08:16:04 -0400 (EST) From: andrea ruth leed Subject: buttons Here's a question for you all: when did buttons as we know them first come into use? And why is it that men's shirts button to the right while women's button to the left? Drea ============================= aleed@ezmail.ucs.indiana.edu ---------------------------- From: Jennifer Bray Date: Thu, 26 Jan 95 13:39:56 GMT Subject: Re: buttons I don't know about men's & women's shirts, but buttons were in use by the 8th century CE in Scandinavia, there is a merovingian period burial of a man with buttoned cuffs. I can't remember the name of the burial site right now exept it began with an H, I can find out if anyone's interested. The next batch of buttons I know of turn up in 10th century CE in Birka (Viking trading settlement), and are on clothes showing eastern influence, so perhaps buttons turned up earlier in the east? Jennifer ---------------------------- From: DENISE@HARV-EHS.mhs.harvard.edu Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 09:39:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Buttons >From a medieval standpoint, I know that buttons were the big fashion accessory of the 14th C. Prior to this time (at least, in the medieval period), buttons are rare if not non-existent (n'ces pas, Karen?). As for buttoning on a particular side... Men's doublets seem to have buttoned indiscriminately, at least up until the late 16th century. I suspect, but have no evidence whatsoever, that the buttoning convention was a Victorian invention. My $.02 worth... Deo ---------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 09:28:24 -0600 (CST) From: Gwyndlyn J Ferguson Subject: Re: buttons On Thu, 26 Jan 1995, andrea ruth leed wrote: > Here's a question for you all: when did buttons as we know them first > come into use? And why is it that men's shirts button to the right while > women's button to the left? > The early Scandanavian use of buttons I was not aware of (not contesting the info, I really just didn't know), but they were used in western Europe by at least the late 1300's, first as decorative additions, then becoming a fastener. Cotehardies and sideless surcotes of that period begin to use buttons as fasteners. (you button through the front panel of a sideless to hold it in place--very helpful) Shank buttons are the earliest, flat buttons are a much later innovation. As to the right and left handed buttoning, the story I was told is that the standard began when gentlemen wore rapiers regularly and would need to unbutton their coats while drawing their swords. (try it, if you're right handed it works) Since women didn't need to be drawing swords, their garments remained left-buttoning. Honest, that's the way I heard it from my mother when I asked her that question years ago (when making my first blouse). gf *Gwyn Ferguson***Western Illinois University *SCA: Lady Gwyndlyn Caer Vyrddin***Lochmorrow-Midrealm *Internet: mugjf@bgu.edu ---------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 10:49:31 -0500 (EST) From: "Jim O'Connor" Subject: Re: Mail order On Wed, 25 Jan 1995, Allan Terry wrote: > I disagree with Jim's opinion that a company that doesn't accept credit > cards is a bad risk. Some highly reputable businesses don't, including my > hairdresser, my favorite science fiction bookstore, and some of my favorite > restaurants. I think this is because credit card companies charge for > the service. The charge is usually passed on to the consumer, implicitly or > explicitly. Some companies give discounts for payment by check. But some > just choose to keep their prices low by avoiding the whole thing. > Mail order and credit cards are great, the banks love it, the merchants (the well-organized ones) love it, they do not want it besmirched by questionable practices. Therefore whenever you buy by mail, which includes phone and fax orders, basically whenever you will NOT be able to sign the slip, which is how the banks define it i.e. if your 'John Hancock (a real clothes-horse if ever there was one)' isn't on the slip it's a mail order purchase; you then have a powerful ally on your side, namely the banks. That's why I said that a mail order merchant who cannot take credit cards MAY be risky. I cheerfully deal with several who do not, but I know that if anything goes wrong my recourse is to far less agressive and powerful advocates. The banks make a giant distinction between stores, restaurants etc... and mail order businesses. The rules have gotten a lot tougher in the last few years. The book store that charged a restocking fee when they did not have the customer's signature on the slip may have been violating their contract with the bank e.g. their contract may state that they cannot accept 'mail order' i.e. unsigned slips (BTW the jargon term is 'un-swiped' because just before they have you sign they will have 'swiped' your card through a magnetic card reader, I won't burn up the bandwidth by saying what that triggers off). Disputing the charge would have surely caused no small 'bit of bother' for that store and most likely would have cancelled out the charge. If anyone has a spare hour or two, the next time you are in your local bank walk up to the manager and tell her that you want to get a merchant account for credit cards and you want to accept MAIL ORDER. Watch the reaction, almost surely she'll check your current balance and if it doesn't have at least five figures maybe even six, she may not even talk to you. Suffice to say the process is extremely rigorous. (Recall, that I mentioned how you buy from Mary's Fabric but the charge may say Harry's Tires, since both parties are violating all sorts of rules, you'll probably recieve extrememly good service in that instance. And yes, Harry is engaging in the modern equivalent of placing his cloak in the mud for Mary to tread on.) Re: your credit card number, yes you should protect it. The primary rule is NEVER provide it to anyone who calls you UNSOLICITED (I tell them it is against my policy to do that, it really is!!!) However, recall that I said the well-run mail order merchant fears the dreaded charge-back. Therefore when you order by mail, or phone; you will often be asked to supply a phone number where you can be reached. More and more you may get a call. This is done to help avoid the situation where one significant-other orders something and the opposite-other disputes the charge (it happens.) So many merchants will call back, often using a ploy to say they want to check on an address or color etc.. (the truth is that often they are checking to see if you really placed the order.) If they ask to check your credit card number, simply MAKE THEM read it back to you, not the other way round. (Also they often record such 'call-checks' so that if the charge is disputed they have verbal 'proof' of the order.) The sheer amount of processing that a dispute triggers is why the banks won't let a merchant have too many of them. Always double check, maybe even triple check, before filing a dispute for the sake of everyone involved. Also re your credit card, the banks sometimes 'shoot themselves in the foot' by combining functions on the same card. Nowadays a credit card can also be a Telephone Calling Card and an ATM (Automatic Teller Machine) card. When that is the case, your number is far more valuable and that includes the so-called PIN number that goes along with those functions. Because of the real problems with Phone cards and ATM; the pre-cautions relative to those services have spilled over onto the ordinary credit card. Truth is that everything is risky, but if you know the level of risk then you can choose wisely. Also if you know at least some of the rules, you have a much better chance of correcting a problem should one arise. Sorry to consume so much space, but if you need to obtain things that just are not to be found at a local store, then you must use mail and phone order so this knowledge may be beneficial. ---------------------------- From: cpecourt@mhv.net Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 11:04:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: buttons I could be mistaken, but I seem to recall seeing pictures of woodcuts that have cotehardies with buttons down the front. That would be around the 1200's or so... Chantal ---------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 11:24:59 -0500 (EST) From: Elizabeth McMahon Subject: Re: Buttons On Thu, 26 Jan 1995 DENISE@harv-ehs.mhs.harvard.edu wrote: > As for buttoning on a particular side... Men's doublets seem to have > buttoned indiscriminately, at least up until the late 16th century. I > suspect, but have no evidence whatsoever, that the buttoning convention > was a Victorian invention. > When I took historic costuming in college, we were told that men's button side solidified somewhere in the 14th c. because there were buttons on pourpoints and blades could get caught, inviting injury if it buttoned the now standard women's way. Knowing what I know now, I think it likely that this isn't based on anything solid (It wasn't a very heavy duty class ;*), but it makes a lot of common sense. We were also taught that women's didn't standardize until the Victorian era.> -*-*- Beth in the office 212-741-4400 ---------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 11:27:02 -0500 (EST) From: Elizabeth McMahon Subject: Re: buttons On Thu, 26 Jan 1995, Gwyndlyn J Ferguson wrote: > becoming a fastener. Cotehardies and sideless surcotes of that period > begin to use buttons as fasteners. (you button through the front panel of > a sideless to hold it in place--very helpful) Where did you get this piece of info? -*-*- Beth in the office 212-741-4400 ---------------------------- From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 26 Jan 95 16:32:00 GMT Subject: Buttons The other thing to remember about buttons, is that just because they were being used does not mean they were used on every item of clothing, eg where we would use them! They were decorative and expensive (lots of labour, just like pins, which even then made for high prices), so they were used on the top layer of clothes, particularly mens doublets. Ribbons (with or without aiglettes), hooks and eyes, and pins, went on being used for the other layers for a long time yet - eg shirts, jerkins, hose, etc etc. Of course, in some areas ribbons (or laces) are more practical than buttons. You can vary the width between jerkin and upper hose with laces quite easily, whereas buttons are just done and undone. You can also maintain a certain amount of decency when using the codpiece as nature intended (hint for the men here!). I was always told that the convention of mens clothes fastening left to right was so that the man's right hand was free to use the sword. It does tie up to the fact that you can always tell who the little boy is in pictures from periods when small boys were put in skirts until they were breeched, from their little sisters. The boys always have a sword, usually tied to their waist, just like their fathers. Caroline ---------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 15:38:13 -0500 (EST) From: Elizabeth McMahon Subject: RE: Janet Arnold On Wed, 11 Jan 1995, Gregory Stapleton wrote: > Does anyone have either/both a snail mail/email address for Ms. Janet Arnold? Dunno if she has email, but her cards and letters address is as follows: Janet Arnold SgA 4 Brayfield Terrace, Islington London N1 1HZ England Can't read my writing to tell if the number code includes 1's or I's. I've written her a couple of times, and she always answers very helpfully. Beth McMahon ---------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 17:12:00 -0500 (EST) From: Somerset County Subject: sources of historical costume info Hi!! This is my first attempt at this type of communication, so if I make a mistake or ask something stupid, please be kind. My county, in rural southwest Pennsylvania, is celebrating a bicentennial in 1995. Various organizations are doing activities from eras through the 200 year time span. I have been asked to put together some information about clothing during the 1790's, the 1890's, W.W.I, the Roaring 20's, the 1930's, W.W.II, the 40's, 50's, and 60's...I guess the committee feels everyone remembers the 70's (or perhaps they feel most of us are still wearing those styles). In any case, I find this to be a large assignment. I have put together a list of suppliers of patterns, etc. (using Threads, Sew News and several other sewing publications), but I have been ask to describe outfits that folks could put together with a minimum of effort and expense--for men, women and children. I'm OK with W.W.II--I'm going to suggest all the women dress like pin up girls or Rosie the Riveter, depending upon ...well, I hope you get the picture. (I'll be there as Rosie!) Can anyone direct me to some books that I could find in interlibrary loan that might describe or picture outfits I could describe. I would like to be able to describe fabrics and colors as well as styles. The most important era is the 1890's since President McKinley and Vice-president Teddy Roosevelt visited here in that time frame and this social event will be re-created. Thanks for any help you can give me. I just signed on last week and have enjoyed being part of the group! Marie ---------------------------- Subject: Re: Bad Experience with Past Patterns Company Date: Thu, 26 Jan 95 04:59:29 PST From: Rob_C._Bradshaw@blt.berkeley.ca.us (Rob C. Bradshaw) Has anyone got a Bad Experience withPast Patterns story??!!!??? Oh my GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can we TALK???????!!!!!!!!!????????? That company used to drive me crazy!! And the owner, Ms. Altman, was the focus of my irritation. Years ago when I did wedding dresses for a living (groan) I had several clients who fell in love with Past Pattern designs. (This was in the days when New York Fabrics carried them). We purchased several styles and sizes and then tried to order the rest. First off, we were not on a major deadline. We started the project in April for a March-the-following -year wedding. I explained to the order taker at Past Patterns that I didn't need them rushed but within a month or so would be good. By June no patterns so I called again. They were temporarily out of stock but would be in within the month and would be shipped then. I called in August and it was the same "Any time now" story. By October the bride was getting antsy so I wrote and called. We finally got the patterns at the end of January. Meanwhile, YES, they had been paid for. Most of the patterns were sized oddly to say the least. One girl measured a size 4; we tried a muslin on of an 8 and had to do major expansion and lengthening. We followed the companys measurements to a T and they were always off. The yardage estimates were NEVER correct, instructions were poorly written and of the TWO whole sketches of what the inside of the top should look like, one was incorrect! It took me 40 hours to do one dress and most of that time was spent in frustration trying to piece the damn thing together! At one point I called the company for help and talked with none other than Ms. Altman who not only didn't offer anything like tangible advice but launched into a ten minute long-distance screech fest on how us "West-Coast people" gave her nothing but trouble and HOW DARE I even question her and her company and its product. After all they were professionals in this business and who was I to point out their foibles? She NEVER had any problems with people in New York. And then she hung up. Needless to say, she leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. The New York Fabrics store I worked at eventually stopped carrying her patterns not so much the expense but they couldn't get stock in with any sort of consistently. The straw that broke the camels back was the day a customer wanted several hundred dollars of patterns but needed them within a week. The supervisor called, explained the situation and said they'd even pay for Fed Ex delivery and Ms. Altman told her in no uncertain terms that they were above being forced into doing anything (like shipping an order in a timely manner?) and there were no guarantees in life. An order wouldn't be accepted under those circumstances. We all had a good laugh over that as the customer told her where to stick her attitude and walked out. I have bought the Attic Reproductions that L'Acis in Berkeley sells. They are basically good and strictly a reproduction, not something Past Patterns has mucked with. I won't order anything even through L'Acis. If its in stock ok but if not, oh well. I have heard from cohorts that the patterns have improved through the years but apparently not the attitude. I had always hoped the universe would deal with her but I guess its not her time yet. Just so you feel better, the above events took place about 13 years ago. You have my heartfelt condolences. I no longer feel alone! Anyone wishing to respond, the account I use is my boyfriends' -- put my name in any response somewhere visible so he knows to put it in my file --Loran Watkins, Diablo Valley College. Berkeley Learning Technologies, Inc. (510) 658-2800 ---------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Jan 95 19:40:05 PST From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Buttons The 1993 issue of _Dress_, the Costume Society of America journal, contains a very interesting article titled "Buttonholes: Some Differences in Gender-Related Closures." The author examined fashion illustrations, photos, dressmaking manuals, and extant garments from 1860 to 1920. Although there were illustrations of men's clothes that buttoned right-over-left, no extant garments did. However, only two-thirds of the women's garments buttoned right-over-left. The author thinks the ready-to-wear industry played a part in imposing standards. A friend with an extensive collection of Victorian through 20s men's clothes says double-breasted men's clothes were sometimes constructed to button either way, so a new piece of front cloth could be exposed when one grew shabby. I saw a white pique Victorian vest like this at a vintage clothing show. If I remember right, there were two rows of buttonholes on each layer. The buttons had metal pieces like the ones on cufflinks, which were slipped through the holes; in other words they were easily movable. Fran Grimble ---------------------------- End of Volume 216 -----------------------