From: Gretchen Miller Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 11:46:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 218, 2/8/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 218, February 8, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: ISO: German Landesknect documentation Comparing Cleopatras Buttons down which side ISO: Info on early/mid-19C Austrian dress Star Trek costumes/Historical costumes in Star Trek "Hollywood and History" and the National Film Information Service How historic costume influences views of future costume Illustrations in "Orientalism--Visions of the East in Western Dress" Where can I get these books? Buttoning sideless surcotes ---------------------- From: "Regina Voorhes" Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 11:46:21 PST Subject: German Landesknecht documentation I am looking to add to my group's resource list for documentation of early-16th C. German Landesknechten/Campfollowers. All the common, easy-to-find stuff is already in our libraries. I'm looking for primary source materials, art books, woodcuts, engravings, etc. NO Hi Y'all, RE-DRAWINGS! Preferrably in English, but I'll take foreign-language sources. I can get translators. We are the officers corp of a private army. Mostly upper-middle class clothing is most appropriate. Campfollower clothes are harder. Women from artisan-class families, looking for adventure. Anybody out there have a secret source for this kind of stuff? Your assistance will be greatly appreciated. Regina Lawson Voorhes Kreigshunde Faunlien, SRMS Los Angeles ---------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 12:46:56 -0800 From: Alison Kondo Subject: Historic ST & Movies I'd forgotton the mens "Beatle Cuts" in Romeo & Juliet...looking at period paintings, their hair would probably have been shoulder length, yes? I also remembered the Cleopatra movies... Liz Taylor in interestingly tailored gowns & some fluffy 60's hairdos (like on the boat party with Anthony & the floral cap in the Roman scene with Ceasar...it looked just like the floral net hats women used to cover their curlers with...) Looking at ads from 1963, Cleo also affected current fashion, since a lot of wigs, makeup & Jewelry suddenly had "egyptian" themed ads. Claudette Colberts Cleo dresses looked like they could pass for any bias cut evening gown of the early 1930's. Theda Bara's Cleo costumes were pretty outrageous, & too naked for any 1917 fashions, (this was well before the Hayes codes!), but some elements, like some skirt drapes, do seem to show up in WW1 evening wear. Its kind of fun to compare the different Cleos... alison ---------------------- From: "Lassman, Linda" Subject: Re: Buttons Date: Thu, 26 Jan 95 11:08:00 PST >> As for buttoning on a particular side... Men's doublets seem to have >> buttoned indiscriminately, at least up until the late 16th century. I >> suspect, but have no evidence whatsoever, that the buttoning convention >> was a Victorian invention. > >When I took historic costuming in college, we were told that men's >button side solidified somewhere in the 14th c. because there were >buttons on pourpoints and blades could get caught, inviting injury if it >buttoned the now standard women's way. Knowing what I know now, I think >it likely that this isn't based on anything solid (It wasn't a very >heavy duty class ;*), but it makes a lot of common sense. We were also >taught that women's didn't standardize until the Victorian era.> > >-*-*- >Beth in the office >212-741-4400 I was told in a class that the reason women's clothing buttoned as it does is because women were "dressed" and that it was easier for the buttoner to fasten them if they were on the opposite side as would be convenient if they were buttoning their own clothing. (If that's true, it would also say a lot about women who didn't have dressers wanting to appear like they did!) I also heard something about clothing manufacturers--when ready-to-wear gained more acceptance--wanting something obvious to distinguish between men's shirts and women's. Choose the story you like best! - Linda Lassman Winnipeg, Manitoba ---------------------- From: AIIesandro@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 13:00:09 -0500 Subject: Costume information Dear Sir, My name is Debra Ortiz, and presently I am working on a novel that is set in 1824-1840's in Austria. I am seeking advice from you on what would be the best reference for period dress during this time. I will need predominately , military dress, female fashions, male gentil fashions, and perhaps..what a precocious female during that time period might wear should she be following an army. I know this sounds slightly comical particularly the last request, but the character of Aaria, is somewhat of a freethinking female and her dress should reflect that. If you could please advise me upon where to look for such information, or perhaps, help me with it, I would be most grateful. Your time and cooperation is appreciated. Respectfully, Debby Ortiz AIIesandro@aol.com ....((Allesandro is spelled with two capital * i *'s. Thank you......Debby)) ---------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 13:34:54 -0800 From: maynard@figaro.Eng.Sun.COM (Alexandra Rankin Ohlson) Subject: Re: Historic Star Trek >>Other revalations--You can do a tremendous amount with rubber rain boots; >>lots and lots of knits used (ease in fitting, I assume, since many are >>used on garments which, if worn as they are supposedly worn, would not >>hold up in a knit); Actually, what I read somewhere (probably one of those stupid tv guide infomercial articles about STTNG...) was that although in the first season they used knits or lycra or something for the costumes, the ended up using gabardine. It draped/held its shape better. That is, for the Starfleet Officer uniforms. And not to indicate that I liked the show or anything, one of the costumes I did like was their full-dress uniforms - almost to the knee tunics over trousers - I think they later made joking references to them as "dresses" and then in later seasons it appears they shortened them up to the thigh again. I dunno, it would be kind of fun to see guys clothing get a bit more elaborate. Post Industrial Revolution it's all pretty much variations on a theme. Let's see some velvet and embroidery and lace guys! alexandra ---------------------- From: Donna Holsten Subject: Re: Historic Star Trek Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 14:53:10 -0800 (PST) I can't recall too many historical episodes of Star Trek off-hand, and most of what I can remember is out of the periods with which I'm familiar. But I do remember one episode in particular--when Q sends the crew to Robin Hood land. In that particular episode, the costumes have absolutely *no* resemblance to anything remotely historically accurate. (Well, O.K., so they weren't *that* bad...but that dress thing that "Marion" wore made me want to gag.) I vaguely remember another episode where there was a village that seemed to be wearing medieval clothing--tunics and cotehardies. I remember looking at the clothes and thinking that they weren't too bad. The colors were good, and the fabric texture looked about right. But as far as the Star Trek attempts at medieval/renaissance stuff goes--it's great for a costume party or an SCA event (I didn't *really* say that, did I?), but if you're interested in accuracy, you'll have to keep looking. I have a feeling that their more modern stuff is more accurate, but it's not my specialty so don't take my word for it. I do remember being impressed by the costumes in the "Data goes back in time in San Francisco and loses his head" episode, but, then again, it doesn't take much to impress an untrained eye. The 1950's costumes from the holodeck scenes, and the Sherlock Holmes costumes look pretty good to me, too, but, like I said, those periods certainly aren't my specialty. And to kind of comment on the other direction this thread has taken--it would be a really neat exercise to look at the development of costume throughout history, and extrapolate what *future* clothing might really be like. But, unfortunately, I think that's a little beyond the scope of this list. Donna H. ---------------------- From: "Heather L. Garvey" Subject: Re: Historic Star Trek Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 17:14:29 -0600 (CST) * I dunno, it would be kind of fun to see guys clothing get a bit more * elaborate. Post Industrial Revolution it's all pretty much variations on * a theme. Let's see some velvet and embroidery and lace guys! Tunics would be nice, or full shirts with simple doublets. :) I like the clean-cut, simple look, but there *are* so many things you could do nevertheless. :) And of course, KILTS! (Yes!) -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Heather Garvey Phone: (708) 632-3790 Motorola Cellular, ITS, Rm 2231 E-mail: garvey@cig.mot.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- From: Dave Uebele Subject: Re: Historic Star Trek Date: Mon, 30 Jan 95 15:20:51 PST Alexandra Rankin Ohlson said something close to this: > > I dunno, it would be kind of fun to see guys clothing get a bit more > elaborate. Post Industrial Revolution it's all pretty much variations on > a theme. Let's see some velvet and embroidery and lace guys! > > alexandra Regarding the Star Trek Theme (even though its not strictly speaking "historical costuming" Most of the people you see on Star trek are military, business, and high political in one way or another. Historicaly, these groups make extensive use of "uniforms" where presentation/coding of rank/status or basic utilitarian/functional is much more important than personal preference. Hence a lot of the boring colors. With that said, I agree that a lot of the blanding down of these clothing styles has been Post Industrial revolution. With a few exceptions, Men's clothing have been pretty boring for the last 100 years. We've even lost most of the ideal of a nicely tailored or well fitting suit (boring as it may be). Any predictions on what it would take to make men's clothing interesting again? I think its gotten into a catch-22 where the men don't dare to wear anything interesting and the designers don't dare introduce anything interesting... dave -- Dave Uebele daveu@cisco.com (408) 526-7856 ---------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 15:39:31 -0800 From: Alison Kondo Subject: Historic movies Yes, I've got the Hollywood & History book, I agree its an interesting read. I really got interested in the Cleopatras & contacted the National Film Information service for more photo stills from the movies & am working on a class presentation using them. I really recommend the NFIS folks if you need stills...I've got some silent movie stills from them (WW1 era) I've never seen published. Alison ---------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 16:00:44 -0800 From: maynard@figaro.Eng.Sun.COM (Alexandra Rankin Ohlson) Subject: historical "historical" or "future" >>would be a really neat exercise to look at the development of costume >>throughout history, and extrapolate what *future* clothing might really >>be like. Or perhaps more do-able than this : Look at historical views of how people viewed historical costume or guessed at future costume. I don't know if there is much of the latter, but I know there are interesting examples of the former. One I saw, and I'd have to research where, was various views of "Brittania" (sp?) as an emblem for England. Her classical costume was most definitely molded by the current ideal type/body shape. alexandra ---------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Jan 95 16:28:33 PST From: "cynthia" Subject: historical "historical" or "future" >>would be a really neat exercise to look at the development of costume >>throughout history, and extrapolate what *future* clothing might really >>be like. Ya know, the current trend of the high waistline, especially in last summer's dresses, and the push-up brassiere/corset are a recurring themes at the start of each of the last couple centuries. OK, so it's _before_ the Turn of the Century this time, but it's a fast moving world. Looking forward to the return of the bustle or fanny pad in, oh about 2010, I remain, --cin ---------------------- From: VICKI@lib.uttyl.edu Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 19:00:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: Orientalism exhibition Nancy Fadis asked whether the illustrations in _Orientalism: Visions of the East in Western Dress_ are in color. Yes, almost all of the photographs of clothing in the exhibit are in beautiful color, although some of the accompanying illustrations from paintings, sketches, etc. are in black and white. Of all of the 1840-1872 items that I described, only one was in black and white--the 1850s opera cloak of ivory silk faille embroidered with gold soutache braid. It was also in a smaller format and partially hidden by two other later mantles, and is viewed from the slightly side back. Vicki Betts University of Texas at Tyler vicki@lib.uttyl.edu ---------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 20:18:25 -0500 (EST) From: Melissa Bishop Subject: searching for books Hi everyone! My interest in historical costumes is a SMALL one. I make anotomically correct [or boxom babes!] dolls that I wish to dress in costumes from the mid-1800's through the 1940's, in an as authentic manner as possible. My dolls range in hight from 16 - 20 inches tall and have current measurements of ~9.5"/6"/9"; an equivalent of 38"/24"/36". I have 4 wonderful books that I begged from the library and would do anything to own my own copies. I'd happily pay cost/shipping/+ an appropriate goodie to anyone that could help me. [does this sound like bribery? Good!] Here's the list Period Costume for Stage & Screen - patterns for women's dress 1500 - 1800 By Jean Hunnisett (c)1986 Bell & Hyman LTD Publishing - London ISBN 0 7135 2660 2 Price (given in pounds only) 12.95 Patterns For Theatrical Costumes By Katherine Strand Holkeboer (c)1984 Princeton Hall, NJ ISBN 0-13-654278-6 or 0-13-654260-- {pbk} Price $12.95 or her later version - (c)1993 ISBN 0-89676-125-8 Price $29.95 Patterns of Fashion - Englishwomen's dresses and their construction c.1860-1940 By Janet Arnold (c)1966 Wace & Co LTD - London No ISBN number No Price and Patterns of Fashion - the cut and construction of clothes for men & women c1560-1620 (c)1985 Macmillan London LTD ISBN 0 333 38284 6 Price $20.00 or any other that she may have written that follows this wonderful format. If anyone knows of any other books that follow these formats; very detailed pattern pieces & directions. Patterns are 1/8" scale, please let me know! thank you for your assistance! ======== /~~~~~~~~~~~~\ InterQuilt..Pfabulous Pfaff Pfan Club..Ragdolls..===== ( do you have ) 475 Mill Rd., Coram, NY 11727-4137 ( your IQ Card? ) voice 516.736.0320 fax 516.732.3910 *#* *#* (______________/ *#*#*#*#* @@@ / __________I__ Melissa *#*#*#* @o o@ | o [_____] |_ Bishop A___A mbishop@ccmail.sunysb.edu *#*#* \=/ |_______ o |_| ____ / o o \ mbishop+IQ@ccmail.sunysb.edu * o==|~|==o ! |:: [ | /~____ ='= / mbishop+DOLLS@ccmail.sunysb.edu __/)|(\__________|_____|_ (______)__m_m_) mbishop+PFAFF@ccmail.sunysb.edu ~U~~~U~*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o*o* ---------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 19:40:59 -0600 (CST) From: Gwyndlyn J Ferguson Subject: Re: buttons On Thu, 26 Jan 1995, Elizabeth McMahon wrote: > On Thu, 26 Jan 1995, Gwyndlyn J Ferguson wrote: > > > becoming a fastener. Cotehardies and sideless surcotes of that period > > begin to use buttons as fasteners. (you button through the front panel of > > a sideless to hold it in place--very helpful) > > Where did you get this piece of info? > -*-*- > Beth in the office > 212-741-4400 > > Beth, (and everyone else) I didn't mean to take so long to get back to your question, but I had to search my books at home. What I found out is that I have retained that little piece of info, but not the reference for it. "I know I read it somewhere..." Actually, I have a good idea of where it is, but I will have to wait for my next visit home to check the public library where I did the majority of my early costume research. However, I can guess where the assumption was made that sideless gowns were "buttoned through", in many of the statues and drawings of women in sideless gowns, especially the kind with the separate top part, there is a row of buttons down the center. Having taken a closer look at the evidence again (it's been awhile) I am more likley to say that those are decorative, rather than being attached to the cotehardie beneath. In the same light, I am willing to believe it might have happened. Tight, front bottoned cotehardies are contemporary with sideless surcotes, and lack of evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen. :) (I have to say that, I'm a historian) I personally have made surcotes with buttonholes in the front panel to correspond to the cotehardie (my very favorite type of gown) underneath. Buttoning through very nicely solves the problem I seem to have with the overdress sliding back on my shoulders, and it also keeps it from shifting off center. So, when I have had a chance to check my early and undocumented sources, I shall be sure to let everyone know. *Gwyn Ferguson***Western Illinois University *SCA: Lady Gwyndlyn Caer Vyrddin***Lochmorrow-Midrealm *Internet: mugjf@bgu.edu ---------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 17:41:35 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Hall Subject: Re: Historic Star Trek > > Any predictions on what it would take to make men's clothing interesting > again? I think its gotten into a catch-22 where the men don't dare to > wear anything interesting and the designers don't dare introduce anything > interesting... That's why I buy a lot of my clothes on the "other side" of the aisle...who cares if they button on the wrong side. You can't buy velvet or french cuffs in the men's aisle! -Grotesque and Arabesque -Sir.Real ----------------------- End of Volume 218 -----------------------