From: Gretchen Miller Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 18:35:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 220, 2/9/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 220, February 9, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Future clothing ISO description of sword-knots ISO Information about Costume College 1995 (California) Button history Various colors of unbleached wool Followup to Past Pattern mail order experience Dyes Victorian 2nd wedding attire Question and answer: Sewing classes at Colonial Williamsburg Buttoning up which side Orientalism exhibit ISO: Info on mail-order fabrics Getting copies of Brother Cadfael ----------------------- Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 10:29:09 -0800 (PST) From: samhainsghost Subject: Re: Future Clothing I used to work as a lighting technician for drag shows or other avante garde clothing shows that got held at the clubs. Let me tell you the middle ages drapey look with brocades and tapestry fabrics is on the way back in..has been for a few years now. And people who are addicted to THE LOOK don't care what they have to do to get it. If it means crushing themselves into a corset; they'll do it. Already on the streets here women and men are wearing the white ruffled shirts under beautifully embroidered vests...usually with leggings..read heavy duty hose and knee length leather boots. The butt pack has changed looks from ultra sporty ski gear to a softer leather look which sneakingly looks distinctively like the medieval belt pouch. Also the medieval..or rennaisance squishy velvet hats replete with ribbons,bells etc. are being sold in stores.Although the most recent trend is a sort of renaissance De Sade look mixing beautiful leather garments with studs and chains with rich jewel colored velvets, and the rest of it. Well I just thought I'd put the word out since you seemed to be discussing it. My opinion is that people got tired of super functionality in clothing and are now looking for clothing that makes them feel special. Opulence and luxury are watchwords..I think people want to look good in thier clothes regardless of thier body type..and corsets and bustles etc. will do that. In fact there was an article in "self" magazine recently about waist cinchers, girdles etc. and this in a magazine usually reserved for exercise and fitness advice and articles.Well that's my two cents worth...(eyes huge amount of writing)..well ok maybe 4 cents worth :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Value your friends...some people don't have any....there are grumpy old men dying of a lack of hugs somewhere . SAMHAIN@PACIFICRIM.NET ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- On 31 Jan 1995, Mrs C S Yeldham wrote: > Designers may show avant garde clothes, whether they get worn or not is > another matter... > > I don't know if this is publicised in the States, but Vivienne Westwood has > been showing bustles (with knee-length or thereabouts skirts and platform > shoes) for the last couple of seasons, worn with the boned bodices she has > been showing for a while. The stated purpose is that the bustle makes the > waist look smaller. > > Jean-Paul Gaultier is your man for extreme mens fashions, including skirts > for men - and a few brave men have even worn them in public. > > > > Caroline > Ever on the cutting edge of fashion! > ----------------------- Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 11:10:07 -0600 From: rebecca mioak chung Subject: Sword-knots My colleagues on C18-L (18th Century British Literature) want to know about swordknots. Here's the post: >Reply-To: 18th Century Interdisciplinary Discussion >From: Lisa Berglund On Mon, 30 Jan 1995, John A. Dussinger wrote: > Ever since first reading closely THE RAPE OF THE LOCK, I've been > puzzled about the interest in Sword-knots as apparently an important > appendage for the upper-class male identity. In letters to a woman > novelist in the 1750s, Richardson advised her to make more out of the > sword-knots that were introduced. What sorts of things could have > been made out of sword-knots, other than the vulgar Freudian > nonsense? Are "sword-knots" related to the "shoulder-knots" with which the three brothers decorate their coats in "A Tale of a Tub"? Although I don't know what Richardson had in mind, perhaps Pope was thinking of Swift. Given the pervasive religious subtext of "The Rape of the Lock," the competition among false idols suggested by the "striving swordknots" reads more profoundly if it brings the "Tub" allegory to mind. Lisa Berglund lber@conncoll.edu As you can see, the material considerations of sword-knots (what they looked like, how they were worn, etc.) would expedite the discussion. Can anyone help? Thank you! Rebecca Chung rmc2@quads.uchicago.edu ----------------------- From: dianeg@orion.csd.sgi.com (Diane Grason) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 12:16:22 -0800 Subject: Costume College 1995 In a recent mail order from Raiments, I received a flyer for a three day event called "Costume College 1995" to be held in the L.A. area. This is put on by The Customer's Guild West and is scheduled for July 21-23 of this year. I was wondering...has anyone ever attened this event in previous years? Sounds like they are planning workshops and lectures, Saturday evening is a formal dinner dance, (focus period: victorian crinoline 1840's-1860s). I'm very interested in going and am looking for others in the Bay Area who may also attend. I want to stay in the hotel where the event is being held, but its rather costly and I was hoping to share costs with a fellow costumer. Anybody else hear of this or plan on going? dianeg -- _______________________________ | | | Diane M. Grason | | dianeg@csd.sgi.com | | System Admin, ESS/CSD | | (415) 390-1473 | "But now I'm safe in the eye | (415) 940-5401 (pager) | of the tornado..." |_______________________________| D. Mustaine ----------------------- Date: Tue 31 Jan 1995 14:20 CT From: UDSD007@DSIBM.OKLADOT.STATE.OK.US (Mike.Andrews ) Subject: Re: buttons Jennifer Bray wrote: > I don't know about men's & women's shirts, but buttons were in use by > the 8th century CE in Scandinavia, there is a merovingian period burial > of a man with buttoned cuffs. I can't remember the name of the burial > site right now exept it began with an H, I can find out if anyone's > interested. I certainly am. Were these buttons functional, or ornamental, or do you remember? > The next batch of buttons I know of turn up in 10th century CE in Birka > (Viking trading settlement), and are on clothes showing eastern influence, > so perhaps buttons turned up earlier in the east? Same questions apply here. > Jennifer Answers from others also welcome; I was under the (probably mistaken) impression that buttons were ornamental, rather than functional, before the 1600's or so. Shows how much _I_ know. -- Mike Andrews Mgr., Tech. Support, Okla. Dept. of Transportation udsd007@ibm.okladot.state.ok.us ----------------------- From: Marsha Hamilton Subject: Dyes (or not, actually) (fwd) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 17:29:30 -0500 (EST) I've never seen a modern Turkish rug using unbleached wool of different shades but it is a very common practice in Tibetan rugs. They can have quite a variety of tans, browns, greys, and creams of natural color wool. I've seen examples of Middle Eastern rugs dating back several centuries with very vivid colors, especially reds, from natural dyes. > > >fabric at home, but I have several antique "oriental" rugs with > > >natural dyes. The colours are still clear after at least 100 yrs, but > > >subtle. > I have a (modern) Turkish wool rug, which is black and brown and white, > and I was told that it was undyed, but made from the (unbleached) wool > of different colour sheep. I'd say it was subtle, but not dingy. > Does anyone know how old or widespread this technique is (or was my > leg being pulled), or how fast the colour is (I wouldn't expect it to > wash out at all, but at least some hair bleaches in bright light). Marsha Hamilton ----------------------- From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Followup on Past Patterns ordering experience. Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 14:45:35 -0800 (PST) Thanks for all the notes and suggestions on handling mail order/remote pattern ordering! There was some excellent advice in that lot! Following up on my Past Patterns experience: The patterns arrived last Thursday via Priority Post. A note of apology from Ms. Altman (PP's owner) arrived shortly after. It was nice that once she became aware that there was a problem she sent the patterns out via a faster post. It turned out that she was away during a couple of the weeks at the beginning of my order, and was not made aware that there had been a problem upon her return. When she did find out she was a little slow in responding, but perhaps that's because she didn't realize how much had happened. Anyway once I contacted her directly she responded with the patterns quickly despite the excuses. I found out why the order was about $4 more expensive than I had estimated: I was charged for a catalog that I hadn't requested. I sent that catalog and one of the patterns back for a refund. I'd like to note, too, that the cost for the patterns was NOT cheaper than ordering them through Raiments -- they cost me exactly the same. Comments on the patterns, themselves: the "Tucked Waist With Side Closure, Circa 1910" and the "Edwardian Tucked Blouse" were really nice patterns. They're done up like the Big-3 with quality newsprint instructions and multi-sized tissue paper patterns. The Eretria blouse, however, was printed using pale blue ink on bluish-white, sticky, smelly, large, heavy paper. That made it difficult to read the instructions (which were smeared beyond readibility in a few cases), and I broke out in a huge rash every time I touched the paper. That's why I ended up sending that pattern back for a refund. I sent them off yesterday, first class insured, so hopefully getting a refund will be less "eventful" than getting my order! :-) -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch today. :-) Disclaimer: I don't even work for SGI! ----------------------- Date: Tue, 31 Jan 95 15:57:34 PST From: susanf@EERC.Berkeley.Edu (Susan Fatemi) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 217, 1/31/95 Response to yesterday's digest, re: Cadfael (again) I don't want to start a fight or anything... Joe wrote about Middle ages not being dark and dingy and about "oriental" (I dislike the term but everyone uses it) rugs. I never said the Middle ages were dark and dingy (probably a bit grubby is all) just that vegetal dyes are more subtle than chem. dyes. And I really know very little about Cadfael's period which is why I asked what the "experts" thought about the costuming. My personal experience of dying is limited to a couple of batches of procion. I do know a bit about rugs, however. The reason the older rugs have more subtle colours, discounting fading (look at the back of the rug for the true colours) is because these were the dyes available to the weavers. I collect tribals, so I'm not even talking about "city" carpets. Women made their own dyes, and dyed their own wool. Later, esp. with the advent of the German coal-tar dyes, they started buying the dye and still dying their own wool, or paying someone else to do it. The people who weave the tribals actually *prefer* bright colours, garish by our standards. I have a Qashqai kilim (Shiraz) with an absolutely day-glo pink in it! **Thanks to Darla who a while back recommended "Patterns for Theatrical Costumes". I finally got the book on interlibrary loan. It has everything from Ancient Egyptian to Edwardian waists. Also fantasy, and the hakama pattern I wanted. They look very good, they are basic shapes for you to embellish as you wish. I would think they would be a very good place for anyone to start. There is a more recent ed. I haven't see yet. **Re: Futuristic Fashion. Doesn't anyone watch Babylon 5? the aliens wear stripes and subtle japonesqe brocades, etc. Most of the Earthers are in *uniform*, not noted for individuality or livliness of pattern. One of the Ambassadors is straight from the court of Peter the Great. I might start watching the new Star Trek, Voyager. I never warmed to the New Generation--stuffy. Maybe patterns don't show up well on video? regards to all, malice t'wards none Susan Fatemi sorry if rugs are off-topic. ----------------------- Date: Tue, 31 Jan 95 16:37:21 PST From: "cynthia" Subject: Victorian attire for second marriage >I'm hoping some kindly souls on the list can give me a clue as to proper >attire for the principals (bride, groom, attedant) and guests at second >marriages ceremonies during the late (1890s) Victorian era?? I would be >eternally grateful.... There's some fun reprints probably of Demorest's magazines, in a book called _Victorian Wedding Fashions_. They have the usual misconception that Edwardian is Victorian, but the illustrations & articles are fun. There's a ~1900 blurb on the responsibilities of the groom and best man, that I found amusing enough to send off to a friend for HIS wedding. --cin ----------------------- From: DLTR@aol.com Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 21:55:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Historic Star Trek Let's not lose sight of the fact that Star Trek in all its incarnations is just a fantasy. I would be surprised if accuracy in historical costumes was of any tremendous importance to the designers nor so I think it should have been. The costumes were just "eye candy" to dress up a fantastic vision of the future. My recent favorite was in the latest movie. There was a scene that was dressed in space age pseudo-dickensian clothing. Certainly not "accurate" but who cares? The clothes were great fun to look at. Diana Life is a banquet! ----------------------- From: Neysa@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 01:28:44 -0500 Subject: Williamsburg Does anyone know if they teach sewing classes in Willaimsburg? I am interested in learning about the 17-18th century clothing and how it was constructed. Thanks Neysa ----------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Feb 95 11:12:37 GMT From: Alan Braggins Subject: Button direction > Subject: Re: Re: buttons > > I was under the assumption of the left/right male/female button placket > difference was due to the fact that most victorian women ( middle class > and up ) had handmaids and servants, who being right handed, had trouble > buttoning the blouse fronts facing their master I'd heard the same thing, but did the maids (not having maids of their own) had blouses buttoning the other way? Or did they just have to follow fashion and have closures designed the "wrong" way (like modern women)? And even if maids were more common than valets, wouldn't those men with servants to dress them too be more likely to dictate fashion? Or had the need to get to a sword already established a conventional direction for men, still used after swords weren't? Another explanation I'd heard was that both shirts and blouses are designed to be easy for the man of a couple to undo. ----------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 07:17:05 -0500 From: sulcus@ahoynet.com Subject: Re: Williamsburg At 01:28 AM 2/1/95 -0500, Neysa@aol.com wrote: >Does anyone know if they teach sewing classes in Willaimsburg? >I am interested in learning about the 17-18th century clothing and how it >was constructed. Thanks >Neysa There is a forum on costumes. Yopu can get information by calling 804-229-1000. Ask for info on the Winter Discovery program. ----------------------- From: Jennifer Bray Date: Wed, 1 Feb 95 13:07:05 GMT Subject: Re: buttons Mike Andrews asked for more early button info. I still haven't managed to get the full reference for the 8th century stuff, but here's some more info on the 10th century buttons..... BIRKA II:2 Systematische Analysen der Graberfunde Ed. Greta Arwidsson Pub Kungl. Vitterhets och Antikvitets Akademien 1986 ISBN 91-7402-169-9 The following paragraph is translated from the original german: "Die Tracht" (the costume) part 5 "Mannertracht"(men's costume) "The buttoned Kaftans or body dresses were found in five of the Men's graves with textiles fig 7 Bj 716, 752, 944, 985 & 1074. the buttons were of bronze - except from grave Bj 985 where they were of lead - and were ball shaped, smooth or scratched with relief decoration (Birka 1 fig 93: 1- 9 & 19) Buttons of these types come either singly or in small numbers in a completely different function, namely as decoration on distinctive bags (Birka I fig 128:2 compare purses and bags (Graslund Birka II:1) In all five graves the rows of buttons stretched from throat to waist and no further. In 3 of the graves there was also a leather belt with buckle and fastenings (Bj716, 752 & 1674; full discussion by Ingmar Jannson 1978, 383ff and here in chapter 10)" This stuff was found in a graveyard which was mostly 10th century with some earlier graves. Being an engineer & not a linguist I translated it literally, but I disagree with the description of the buttons as ball shaped, to me that conjures up visions of spheres pierced to take thread. In fact the buttons have a fairly heavy shank on the back to take the thread, the shank is nearly as big as the front of the button, they are reminiscent of the tiny bells one finds decorating ties & fringes on imported indian clothing (you know, the hippy stuff). Also when the text refers to buttons being used singly, it means they are sewn on individually rather than in clusters, it does not mean they are used one per garment. (It was intended to be read alongside illustrations so it's not as clear when taken in isolation) I translated the whole chapter, so if anyone wants more info email me, but the section above is about all the stuff there is on buttons. Jennifer ----------------------- From: VICKI@lib.uttyl.edu Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 8:21:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: orientalism exhibit "Orientalism: Visions of the East in Western Dress" may be seen at the Metropolitan Museum of Art from December 8, 1994 through March 19, 1995. Vicki Betts University of Texas at Tyler vicki@lib.uttyl.edu ----------------------- From: cpecourt@mhv.net Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 09:54:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fabric Greetings! In my quest for fabric to create my garb wardrobe, I have found that shopping at fabric stores, even in the remnant bins, is rather costly. Especialy since the one store near me that had wonderful remnants has closed and the remaining store has a poor selection. I was wondering if anyone knew of a mail-order for fabric at reasonable ( preferably cheap!) prices. Or if anyone had suggestions for getting fabric cheaply. I live in the upstate ish part of NY, below Albany and above NYC. Secondly, accuracy aside and whether you liked it or not...Brother Cadfael looked kind of interesting, the 10 minutes I caught of it. anyone know if PBS has it on tape? Chantal cpecourt@mhv.net ----------------------- Subject: Re: Fabric Date: Wed, 01 Feb 1995 10:09:03 -0500 From: Elizabeth Lear > Secondly, accuracy aside and whether you liked it or >not...Brother Cadfael looked kind of interesting, the 10 minutes I caught >of it. anyone know if PBS has it on tape? > Chantal >cpecourt@mhv.net At the end of each episode there is a commercial for purchasing the tape. If you want the information, let me know and I'll copy it from the tape. ...eliz ----------------------- End of Volume 220 -----------------------