From: Gretchen Miller Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 18:51:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 221, 2/9/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 221, February 9, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Sources for costuming books Victorian dress for 2nd wedding Costume College 1995 info Button which side Uniform fabric/historic Star Trek Buttoning on a sideless surcote ISO 1890s frock coat and footwear Button history Question and answer:Particolored women's cotehardies and houppalandes A message from Robin Netherton National Film Information Service Computer costuming ----------------------- From: FuLiMan@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 11:24:59 -0500 Subject: Searching for Books For books published in the UK a good source is B. H. Blackwell, Ltd., Broad Street, Oxford, England OX1 3BQ. They may by now have an Internet address. Their telephone is Oxford 49111. Blackwell's is a great place for just about any kind of book. For books out of print my cousin Ann Kidd runs a very good search service. She especially likes to work with scholars. You can reach her at Curran & Hermes, P. O. Box 278, Corte Madera, CA 94976 (415) 927-3036. Good luck in your searches! Steve Freeman ----------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 08:24:14 -0800 From: jnikkel@internex.net (Jane Amy Nikkel) Subject: Re: Victorian attire for second marriage >Greetings! > >I'm hoping some kindly souls on the list can give me a clue as to= proper >attire for the principals (bride, groom, attedant) and guests at= second >marriages ceremonies during the late (1890s) Victorian era?? I would= be >eternally grateful.... > >Thanks in advance! > >Barbara Wolff >bjwolff@facstaff.wisc.edu (This paragraph follows pages of wedding etiquette prescriptions...) What is above said relates to the marriage of a maiden. In the case of the marriage of a widow certain changes in dress and ceremony are requisite. A widow must never be attended by bridesmaids, nor must she wear a veil or orange blossoms; the proper dress at church is a colored silk and bonnet, pearl gray or some other delicate shade being preferable, though she is privileged to wear white if she desires. She should be accompanied by her father, brother, or some near friend. _The Household Companion: Cookery, Etiquette, Medicine, Practical Mechanics, Etc. (1909)_ It is customary, at the wedding, for the young bride to wear only pure white, with a wreath of orange flowers to adorn the full veil of lace. The widow or elderly lady will wear pearl color or tinted silk, without wreath or veil. The bridesmaid of the youthful bride may wear colors, but a beautiful effect is produced by pure white, with colored trimmings. In some cases, one half of the bridesmaids will wear one color, and the other half another color. No black dresses should be worn by the guests. Any in mourning may, for the time, wear purple, lavender, iron-gray and other quiet colors. _Never Give a Lady a Restive Horse; a Handbook of Etiquette from Victorian Times in America (actually a reprint of selections from Hill's Manual of Social and Business Forms, circa 1880's.)_ If you can find a copy of _The Brides Book; a Pictoral History of American Bridal Gowns_ by Catherine Zimmerman (1985), she has a good deal of illustrations and description of non-white wedding dresses from the 1890's. Many women actually wore colored dresses at their 1st wedding. As an aside, I've seen 2 photographs (one 1880's, one early 1890's) of women wearing dark dresses and white veils. Also of use might be the Dover reprint _Wedding Fashions 1860-1912; 380 Costume Design Illustrations from La Mode Illustree_ which has designs for mothers of the bride, bridesmaids and female wedding guests besides. Men's sources are harder. The reprints, _Mens's Fashion Illustrations from the Turn of the Century_ and _Bloomingdale' Illustrated 1886 Catalog_ might useful since men's fashion changed slowly and mostly in the details. Jamie Jane Amy Nikkel InterNex Information Services, Inc. 1050 Chestnut Street Suite 202 Menlo Park, CA 94025 Voice: 415-473-3060 Fax: 415-473-3062 email: jnikkel@internex.net ----------------------- Date: Wed, 01 Feb 95 09:52:00 PST From: "cynthia" Subject: Re: Costume College 1995 >In a recent mail order from Raiments, I received a flyer for a >three day event called "Costume College 1995" to be held in the >L.A. area. This is put on by The Customer's Guild West and is >scheduled for July 21-23 of this year. >I was wondering...has anyone ever attened this event in previous >years? Sounds like they are planning workshops and lectures, >Saturday evening is a formal dinner dance, (focus period: victorian >crinoline 1840's-1860s). I went to Costume College for the first time last year. It is a good event -- lots of classes to choose from, and the reasonable cost makes it worth attending. Also, not ALL the classes this year will be for the 1860s era. There are always some others, usually Renaissance and the like; one very popular last year was working with feathers! Another was an entire workshop on fitting and constructing a man's frock coat. The workshops are led by knowledgeable people, and the research is solid. Last year, I attended an excellent workshop on draping an 1880s skirt/bustle: the teacher works at a LA area museum, and was able to bring some examples to show. She draped the skirt, showing slides, originals, and technique as she did so. It was very helpful. I had already built an 1883 walking suit (which, amusingly, compares well with a Tissot painting I found a print of later!) and was well aware of the pitfalls, and can say that the class would have beeen a help to anyone. I also attended a corset fitting lecture. It was handled well, although a bit less organized than it might have been. Here again, I have lots of experience with corset fitting and could, I think, judge fairly that the workshop would be helpful to someone less familiar with the technique. A fan lecture was interesting, but too short, and not well-attended. The dinner and ball was *very* well staged, but since I knew very few men there, I was unable to take much pleasure in the ball. I had loads of fun at the "first evening" event: a swim party for those who brought their Victorian-era bathing suits (no, NOT originals!). I had just finished my 1873 Harper's copy, and had to swim-test it. This is a yearly event. One caveat: I would not recommend Costume College for someone who is uncomfortable with "fandom," because this group grew out of that movement: many of the costumers also do science fiction and fantasy costumes. I do NOT intend to intimate that this means they do not do historical costume well: just that if you don't like the idea of "hall costumes" then you may not like the "ambience" here. *I* had a _wonderful_ time. The Costume College folks also help you arrange for roommates, and even transportation if you need it. I expect to go from the Bay Area, but I suspect my two friends who went last year will ride with me, or I'd offer a ride. Oh yes -- if you DO go -- DO *NOT* miss the GArment District, LA tour, the Monday after the event! It is well-worth staying the extra day and taking off work for. You wouldn't *believe* how cheap the fabrics are, and how many fabric and trim and bead and shoe stores are crammed into such a small area. My best find last year was forest green stamped velvet (a' la' 1880s) for $4.50/yd!! And it's gorgeous drapey stuff, too. Best part of the garment district tour: you won't have to FIND it on a map, and you probably won't have to DRIVE in LA, either: they carpool, usually with minivans. Gary Anderson of Raiments [72437.674@COMPUSERV.COM] or Cat Devereaux [71053.3651@COMPUSERV.COM] can tell you more about Costume College. Cat and Janet Wilson Anderson (wife of Gary) are on the planning committee. Come to Costume College and plan to have a lot of fun! (and no, they don't pay me to say so!) ==Marjorie Wilser [73130.475@COMPUSERV.COM] ----------------------- From: "2Lt Aryeh J.S. Nusbacher" Subject: Buttons and uniform fabrics Date: Wed, 1 Feb 95 12:53:38 EST On Thu, 26 Jan 1995, andrea ruth leed wrote: ARL> Here's a question for you all: when did buttons as we know them first ARL> come into use? And why is it that men's shirts button to the right while ARL> women's button to the left? If a man's coat buttoned right over left, then when he drew his sword, the hilts might catch on the placket. On Sun, 29 Jan 1995, anne at Writan Consulting wrote: > Actually, the thing that worries me about science fiction costumes is, in > the future no one will wear prints. At least, that's what the costumers of > these shows seem to think. Just now I'm wearing solid dark green wool sweater, trousers, necktie and beret, a solid light green shirt, and black shoes and socks. The only spot of contrasting colour is the gold rank stripes on my shoulder straps. At the next machine is somebody who is dressed identically. Beside him is somebody who is wearing slate-blue instead of dark green and sky-blue instead of light green; but who is otherwise identically dressed. Sounds remarkably like costumes on Star Trek, really. They're banking on uniforms not changing much. I wonder if they have to spit-shine their boots. Aryk Nusbacher | "Chatter will bring you to the grave" Post-Graduate War Studies Programme | No. 3 of the 10 Commandments of Royal Military College of Canada | Parachute Troops, Canadian Army Training Memo 24, March 1943. ----------------------- From: SpydreC@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 16:15:12 -0500 Subject: RE: Historic Star Trek I remember three classic examples of STNG doing historic. The cases are (I don't know episode names), all related to Data and his quest for humanity. There is the famous Moriarty episodes set in late Victorian England, The Data does Ebeneezer Scrooge, set in mid victorian and my favorite, Data and Picard do Henry the V. In my memory these were all done very well and portrayed the costumes and theme nicely. Especially the Henry the V, which was the scene where Henry is walking through the camps before the battle of Agincourt. Just my input. )!( Joel Connors spydre_connors@qm.genmagic.com joel_spydre_connors@attpls.net Teirnion Cymro "Crown the wise, harness the talented and cherish the lucky" )!( ----------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 10:15:22 +1100 From: S.Randles@UTS.Edu.Au (Sarah Randles) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 216, 1/31/95 On Thu, 26 Jan 1995 09:28:24 -0600 (CST) Gwyndlyn J Ferguson wrote >The early Scandanavian use of buttons I was not aware of (not contesting >the info, I really just didn't know), but they were used in western >Europe by at least the late 1300's, first as decorative additions, then >becoming a fastener. Cotehardies and sideless surcotes of that period >begin to use buttons as fasteners. (you button through the front panel >of a sideless to hold it in place--very helpful) Shank buttons are the >earliest, flat buttons are a much later innovation. I am intrigued by the concept of buttoning the cotehardie to the sideless surcote to keep the latter in place. I haven't done much research in this area, but I had always assumed that the row of buttons was merely decorative. Do you (or anyone else) have evidence of the buttoning through technique you could refer me to? Sarah ****************************************** Sarah Randles S.Randles@uts.edu.au Research Office Telephone: (02)330 1252 University of Technology, Sydney Fax: (02)330 1252 ----------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 19:59:55 -0500 (EST) From: Michael J Sherman Subject: Looking for 1890's English gentleman's frock coat I am looking for a replica of an English frock coat from the 1890's. These coats were usually double breasted and knee-length in front and back. I would preferrably like to have a black, double-breasted frock coat. I would also appreciate any information on finding patterns for it, or finding an original frock coat. Any info would be very helpful! Thanks in advance, Michael Sherman mset@andrew.cmu.edu P.S. - Does anyone have any hints on finding good replica footwear circa 1890? ----------------------- From: CGodfrey10@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 03:23:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Costumes on Star Trek Nex... Hi. I thought the original post was about the period costumes...not prints or hippie clothes, or any of that nonsense. Where did prints come into the picture? If I am mistaken about the original author's intent, then please forgive me. Humbly, Derek ----------------------- From: Jennifer Bray Date: Thu, 2 Feb 95 13:08:08 GMT Subject: Buttons Finally got the info on the book with the early buttons in it... The 8th century buttons are described in:- "The Ho"gom Find and other Migration Period Textiles and Costumes in Scandinavia" Auth. Margareta Nockert Pub. University of Umea dept. of archaeology 1991 (o" = o with an umlaut) The buttons are metal flat fronted with a shank on the back, the flat front has chip carved decoration, as far as I recall it was two spirals joined along a mirror image line. They are used on cuffs, I don't recall if it was tunic cuffs or trouser cuffs or both, but they were definately functional not decorative. These are the earliest buttons I've come across. The 10th century buttons are in:- BIRKA II:2 Systematische Analysen der Graberfunde Ed. Greta Arwidsson Pub Kungl. Vitterhets och Antikvitets Akademien 1986 ISBN 91-7402-169-9 This one is in German, but I have translated chapter 5 which is on the Men's costume & is by Inga Hagg, the following extract deals with buttons: "The buttoned Kaftans or body dresses were found in five of the Men's graves with textiles fig 7 Bj 716, 752, 944, 985 & 1074. the buttons were of bronze - except from grave Bj 985 where they were of lead - and were ball shaped, smooth or scratched with relief decoration (Birka 1 fig 93: 1- 9 & 19) Buttons of these types come either singly or in small numbers in a completely different function, namely as decoration on distinctive bags (Birka I fig 128:2 compare purses and bags (Graslund Birka II:1) In all five graves the rows of buttons stretched from throat to waist and no further. In 3 of the graves there was also a leather belt with buckle and fastenings (Bj716, 752 & 1674; full discussion by Ingmar Jannson 1978, 383ff and here in chapter 10)" The buttons have a large shank on the back, almost as big as the main ball of the button. When the text says they come singly it means they are sewn on individually rather than in clusters, not that they are used one per garment. I haven't got the Ho"gom book, but I've got a copy of the Birka book if anyone wants more info. Jennifer ----------------------- From: Title-L_at_nctsw-n92@smtpgw.nctsw.navy.mil Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 09:02:05 -0500 Subject: particolored cotehardies Hey gang, Can anyone provide documentation on use of particoloring (left side one color, right side another color) in women's cotehardies? I was looking through my books last night before starting a new gown, and realized that I don't have a single period example. I've seen lots of short particolored cotes and houppelandes for men, but not women. Here's all I found, besides numerous examples of women's solid-colored cotehardies, short-sleeved and long, lined and not, tippeted and not, false oversleeved and not, worn by themselves, with sideless surcoats or with houppelandes: a) The closest is a 14th century Italian painting of Good Governance, showing a circle of ladies dancing. One wears what could either be a houppelande or a cote, of which one side is gold brocade and the other half is solid-colored. The dress is looser than I'd expect a cotehardie to be. b) _Sanis Sanitorum_ (sp?), the 14th century book of health and herbology, shows a back view of a woman with long blonde hair talking to a man in a garden. Again, it looks like her half-brocade-half solid outfit is a houppelande, especially since her belt is high under the arms. Another illo in the same book is clearly a houppelande, since the snug sleeves of the (solid-colored) cote show at the wrist under the looser particolored overdress. c) There's a drawing in Norris depicting a snug 4-part particolored cote with a strange neckline (actually off the shoulders, rather than the low boat-neck with clearly-discernable sleevecap I'm used to seeing in period paintings) and he describes goldsmith's work around the neckline (brooches on each sleevetop plus at center front) as well as the more=familiar heavy belt. Of course he cites no source. I vaguely remember an Italian representation of Salome (biblical subject, therefore highly suspect) with gold decorations all the way around a cotehardie-type neck, but I have no idea where he got this three-brooch idea from. Anyone got anything better? I'd appreciate details on source, including the country of origin if known, the book it was found in, etc. I'm beginning to think that particolored cotehardies are an inaccuracy either taken solely from Norris or misrepresenting the fairly-common particolored houppelandes I'm finding. Too bad if so - I only have four yards each of those two colors of diapered linen brocade... Thanks, Lynn fancy mice, fabric and homemade beef jerky do mix, but not in the same drawer... ----------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 10:14:17 -0400 (EST) From: andrea ruth leed Subject: Re: particolored cotehardies I was looking for documentation for particolored medieval cotehardies too, about a year ago. I can't give you the exact manuscript reference, but in my book _Iconographique Musicale au Moyen Age_ there are two paintings that clearly show women in particolored cotehardies. One dress is a bit too loose to deserve the name, but the other is a picture (a black and white copy--sorry I can't name the colors) of women standing around a fountain of some sort, and one of them is wearing a tight-fitting, tight-sleeved cotehardie in two contrasting colors. No brocade, though. I also seem to remember a picture of a particolored cotehardie in _The Medieval Cookbook_. If you need really serious docs, I can find the manuscript numbers for you. Drea ----------------------- From: RUTZ@VAX2.ROCKHURST.EDU Date: Thu, 02 Feb 1995 09:38:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Message from Robin Goldman I'm passing the following message on for Robin Netherton, who doesn't have access to the Internet: A few days ago, this board carried a posting in which a well-meaning friend described my work and gave an e-mail address for me. I'm afraid that address is my husband's work e-mailbox and should not be used to reach me. Thanks for your understanding in this matter. I don't have Net access myself. If you need to contact me, please telephone (my number is in directory assistance for Annandale, Virginia). I'm happy to respond to specific queries in my specialty areas (costume construction & social history, medieval to 16th c. N/W Europe), or to refer people to appropriate sources. However, demands of work, family, and scholarship mean that I simply cannot give lengthy advice on basic or general questions, particularly when the answers are available elsewhere. Nor can I give sewing lessons by phone. Sorry! (As always, my research partner and I are happy to entertain serious requests for academic lectures or workshops). Hope this clears up any confusion. ----------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 10:13:26 -0800 From: Alison Kondo Subject: Movie Stills The National Film Information Service is part of the Margaret Herrick Library, which is part of the Academd of Motion Pictures Arts & Sciences (8949 Wilshire Blvd, Beverly Hills, CA) The Phone # for the reference Library is 1-310-247-3020 & The Reference Librarian is Janet Lorenz. She's been very helpful when I've called. The libraries stills collections include MGM (1923-1972), Papmount (1914-1970) & RKO (1929-1958). I've also found Fox movie stills from WW1. (oops "papmount" is Paramount) If you go in person, the stills charge is mininal, just copying costs...mail requests include copying & researching charges & usually work out to about $1.00 per xeroxed still. Glossy photos are available for greater cost, but the xerox stills have been fine for me so far. ($1 per still seems reasonable to be for the time they have to take in finding them, copying them, packing & mailing them. I've usually ordered about 20 different shots at a time, I just give a desrciption of what I'm looking for within a specific movie-like full length shots of a certain actress & they've come through). Hope this helps. Alison ----------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 15:05:25 -0330 (NST) From: Karen Pottle Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 204, 12/14/94 As for being interested in adding my name to a list of people interested in computer costuming;;;;;; YES YES YES, the time certainly has come. Does anyone know of a software package that is available? Thanks for any info. ----------------------- End of Volume 221 -----------------------