From: Gretchen Miller Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 18:28:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 223, 2/10/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 223, February 10, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Buttons and lacings for kirtles Aiglet suggestion Renaissance portrait book suggestions Uniquely yours answers Buttoning which side ISO: Info on headman's mask for "Yoeman of the Guard" Cloak questions Source for capelet over cotehardie ISO: Info on appropriate materials for 1860s vest Can you date this picture from the clothing description? ----------------------- From: Title-L_at_nctsw-n92@smtpgw.nctsw.navy.mil Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 08:51:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Kirtles, Buttons, and Lacing There is a lovely British Museum/City of London publication which describes 14-cent garments found in the London area. It describes cotehardies with neckline, front closure, and sleeve openings edged by round cord, the same color as the garment, which is card-woven directly onto the garment. You can get this effect by closely whipstitching one-color narrow decorative cord onto the edge of your gown. Buttonholes, spaced very close (less than 1", if I remember right) were essentially slits cut to the very edge of the woolen cloth, then closed by this cord woven across the slit. The buttons were particularly nifty. A 1" circle of the garment fabric had a row of running stitch done just in from its edge, which was pulled up/gathered to form a tiny pouch. This was squashed flat into a disc, and the process repeated; you now have a 3/8" ball or bead of cloth. Some were stiffened with glue; some had a tiny wooden bead tucked inside; some had additional rings of stitching done, either for decoration or stiffening. All were sewn to the very edge of the garment, with a shank created by the attaching thread. If I remember right, these cloth buttons were far more common than bone or metal buttons, and remained in use for some time; Janet Arnold depicts similar buttons on men's 17th-cent doublet-fronts, as well as beads wrapped with silk thread. I saw that publication at last summer at a workshop, and retained the detail as near to my heart and current projects. Perhaps someone else can provide the biblio details/ordering info; I'd love to have my own copy. Lynn fancy mice, fabric, and homemade beef jerky do mix, but not in the same drawer... ----------------------- Subject: re: buttons and lacing Date: Mon, 6 Feb 95 8:39:00 CST From: "Marie L. Schulte" In one of the Museum of London books, the _Textiles_ book, I believe, or the _Accessories_ book, there is a picture of a fabric button. This button appears to have been made by taking a circle (app 2" diameter) of fabric and stitching a gathering/basting stitch at the 1" mark. One pulls this tight, tucks in the edges to fill the ball, and then sews up the pulled tight opening. This fabric ball is the button. I do not own the book, so I am not sure from when this dates, the page number etc. If my recollection is correct, it is 13 or 14 c. Please, if anyone owns the book could you verigfy this for me? I have seen this technique used successfully on several men's cotehardies and gambesons. As far as lacing goes, in (what I consider to be _THE_ source for Elizabethan Embroidery), _Elizabethan Embroidery_, G.W. Digby quotes a 16th c source about lacing being made using a lucette. This is an easy, mindless task and produces strong laces. Lucettes can be bought, occassionally, at SCA events, and I understand Am. Rev. War events. Hope this helps -Marie ----------------------- From: ejp@watson.ibm.com Subject: Re: buttons and lacing Date: Mon, 06 Feb 95 10:23:42 -0500 dawn@babel.DIALix.oz.au (Dawn Elson) writes: > I then make little folded brass aglets that work like the ends on shoelaces And how DO you make these little guys? I want an easy way, mind -- I haven't gotten to the level of dedication that handles instructions like: 1. hammer brass very thin ... :) cheers, ejp -------- Elizabeth Poole Yorktown Heights, NY ejp@watson.ibm.com ----------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 10:21:46 -0600 (CST) From: Deb Subject: RE: aiglets I haven't tried this technique yet, but have had the idea for a year or so. I'be bought the smallest size I could find of Indian "tinkle cones" which are a brass cone about 1" long. My eventual intent is to stick them on the end of a lacing, and then smash them flat, or at least crimp them tighter. It's worth a try, unless the original poster has a simple techinique. Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov ----------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 11:40:02 -0400 (EST) From: andrea ruth leed Subject: renaissance portrait books Being in the SCA, most of the period clothing I've made has been for myself-- and female. Now that I have to make male garb, well, my knowledge isn't as thorough as it could be. Does anyone know the title of a good book of renaissance portraits, preferably color? Drea ============================= aleed@ezmail.ucs.indiana.edu ----------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 11:49:52 -0500 (EST) From: "K.C. Kozminski" Subject: Re: "Uniquely You" dress form Hi Thea, You can get Uniquely You Dress form through Greenberg and Hammer in NYC, 1-800-955-5135, they sell covers at $42.95 each. You can probably go down to a medium just by using smaller cover, but they can be a real bear to put on the first time! Ask a friend to help you fit the cover and put it on the form. Hope this helps! KC Don't think of it as aging, think of it as "Attaining Mythic Stature" kc/Roen who is, herself ----------------------- From: LDulin@aol.com Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 12:58:41 -0500 Subject: Re: renaissance portrait books _Renaissance Portraits_ by Lorne Campbell is the best portrait book I own. Also see all the usual books by Janet Arnold, Robert Trump, etc. Lijsbeth ----------------------- From: NeenH@aol.com Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 14:21:48 -0500 Subject: Re: buttons I also have heard that the men's left over right buttoning was for drawing swords, but that it was so they could rip the left placket open by grabbing it with their left hands and pulling, sort of like unbuttoning 501 jeans, or sailor dress uniform pants...Do most women unbutton their right over left buttons with the right hand or left? I use my left, but I also use my left arm to hold babies (which most women hold babies on the left, parenting books claim) which makes it hard to unbutton while juggling a hungry, impatient baby. It's easy to remember which side to put the button holes when knitting or sewing by acting out drawing a sword and ripping off your doublet and then either putting them on that side, for men, or reversing it for women. I can only remember that way, whether or not it is actually true. NeenH ----------------------- Date: Mon, 06 Feb 95 12:38:13 PST From: "cynthia" Subject: Headsmans mask for "Yeoman" Gentle-creatures, The Stanford Savoyards are starting costume design & construction for Gilbert & Sullivan's _Yeoman of the Guard_. I'm looking for an illustration of a headmans mask, the full over the head hood, to be used in the last scene. If anyone could point to a book (preferably in print or in circulation) with such a thing, I'd appreciate it. The show is set around or slightly before the time of Henry VIII. --cin Volunteer costumers & seamstresses always welcome! ----------------------- From: cpecourt@mhv.net Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 16:35:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Cloaks Hello I am in the thinking stages of creating a cloak out of coat wool. I would like to know about how many yards I am going to need for a full circle , ankle length cloak. I am 5'8" tall. Also, whats the best way to cut the precious wool once I get it? Half circle method (certainly the easiest but then mustn't I have at least twice the length of the width or something like that), or other. My next question is how to line the puppy in such a way that the lining won't bunch or move too much. I think that this can be done, as I have seen it in professionaly made cloaks. Any help on this or other helpful hints would be GREATLY appreciated Thanks Chantal ----------------------- Date: Mon, 06 Feb 1995 16:34:35 -0500 From: Joe Marfice Subject: Buttons Has anyone else noticed the large amount of "I always heard it was because..." stories about the origin of the male RH / female LH button tradition? If I might summarize this thread so far, omitting quotes for brevity: 6 responses pointed to swords as the cause. 4 responses beckoned the servants for the source of the tradition. I have heard this rumour, too. 1 felt that women's blouses were designed to make it easier for the man to get into, an idea of which I must admit has some appeal. (OK, to be fair, he didn't put it quite that way...) 2 responses blamed modern manufacturing & merchandizing for standardizing the buttoning scheme. 3 provided evidence or hearsay of "indiscriminate" buttoning patterns (M or F garments buttoned either way). Notice that only the latter group of responses have provided evidence--is what we have before us a collection of apocryphal stories? You've heard of "urban myth" (I presume); is this "costume myth"? Seriously, since the evidence for "M&F shirts buttoning both left- and right-handed" seems to exist at least into the 1800's (or possibly early 1900's), it seems unlikely that any explanation involving swords is plausible. Likewise, I doubt the servant stories, partly because of the evidence suggests that this had no effect until at least the last century (haven't servants been around much longer than that?), and partly because it stretches me to imagine the poor, huddled masses imitating the upper class to the point of making blouses more difficult to put on, all for a subtle difference in looks. The bit about "it was made easier for the man of the couple to undo" just doesn't wash for me, either--"No daughter of mine's gonna wear a shirt some guy can unbutton!!!." But the manufacturing "powers-that-be" _deciding_ how to make shirts work, now that I can buy (and I have to, since they make the shirts that I don't). As for why women's are different than men's, yeah, maybe it's because the fashion industry wanted to make a difference. Maybe they did it for psychological reasons (check out what they do with women's sizes, on that note); maybe to make it easy for stores to separate their inventory (I can't tell you how many times the cool shirt I found turned out to be a woman's blouse, with way-too-short sleeves). But this is still a guess; don't quote me as knowing anything... :{) Thanks to Fran Grimble (aterry@teknowledge.com) for her references. It's the first, hard-dated evidence from recent centuries that I've heard. I myself haven't contributed any, I must admit......but there's my tuppence. | Broom, at The Lady Perrine | aka Joe Marfice | Ministerium honor est. \|/ which means "Don't check under the bed--you don't want to know." /|\ 513-222-2330 233 Perrine Street //|\\ af289@dayton.wright.edu Dayton (my fayre citee), OH 45410 ----------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 11:29:23 +1000 (EST) From: Carolyn Fraser Subject: Re: Beaded Caplet at 12th Night Re: beaded capelet Hello Catherine, I know this discussion has died down, but I've been meaning for weeks to dig out my reference for a capelet to add to your "vague sources". The source is Ms. Lat. Nuov. Acq. 1673, F. 30 in the Biblioteca Nazionale, Parigi and is dated to 1380. It appears in R. Levi Pisetzky's Storia Del Costume In Italia. The manuscript shows a male wearing a cotehardie and the female in what looks to be a cotehardie under this little cape. The cape is blue with two rows of white trimming the periphery and scallop dagging at the edge. It falls to just below the elbow. It doesn't appear to have a hood attached as the dress either has a very high collar attached, or a hood which is laying down her back on the outside , or perhaps she is wearing a hood under the capelet which is in the same fabric as the dress (which is rose coloured with bands of thin white stripes running horizontally in groups of three). The man is wearing a tight fitting cotehardie to the thigh, low belt etc, and is also wearing a hood with the dagging around the face opening and the long strip ending wound around his head. This is worn so that it is tucked into the cote. Its a charming little scene. There is a short discussion accompanying it in Italian. If any of you are interested, I can Email to you directly, and perhaps you can interpret it for me as well. (My Italian is next to non-existant.) I hope this is of interest, Cheers, Carolyn ----------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 23:23:12 -0600 (CST) From: Gwyndlyn J Ferguson Subject: Re: Cloaks On Mon, 6 Feb 1995 cpecourt@mhv.net wrote: > Hello > I am in the thinking stages of creating a cloak out of coat wool. > I would like to know about how many yards I am going to need for a full > circle , ankle length cloak. I am 5'8" tall. Also, whats the best way to > cut the precious wool once I get it? Chantal, I get 6.33 yards of 55-60" wide fabric cut into two half circles. This is assuming that you're 55 inches from the back of the neck to the ankle, and have a 15 inch neck. Get an even 7 yards if you want to face the bottom edge instead of the tedious turning under and gathering that a curved hem takes. Just cut a 2" wide strip that matches the curve of the circle off of the bottom of your cloak, measure too long to account for this. Then you have a narrow piece that magically matches the curve of the hem. I line cloaks by making an identical cloak from the lining, attaching them at the front and neck and letting them hang for a few days to stretch out. Even up the bottom edge of the lining and shorten by a few inches and hem independently of the cloak. To keep them from shifting too much, I tack the layers together at the bottom using chain loops or ribbon strips to allow slack. If you are in the SCA, there is an article in _The Known World Handbook_ called "The Geometry of the Circle cloak" which is invaluable. _____________________________________________ |-/ | -/ | D of neck circle=5" | -55"- | -/ | R = 2.5" | | -/ | cut R to 1.8" | |/ | 5/8" seam | / | | /| | | /- | | | /- | | | /- | | |_____________/-_______|__________________/-| gf *Gwyn Ferguson***Western Illinois University *SCA: Lady Gwyndlyn Caer Vyrddin***Lochmorrow-Midrealm *Internet: mugjf@bgu.edu ----------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Feb 95 19:14 EST From: dawn@babel.DIALix.oz.au (Dawn Elson) Subject: aiglets, buttons etc >dawn@babel.DIALix.oz.au (Dawn Elson) writes: >> I then make little folded brass aglets that work like the ends on shoelaces > >And how DO you make these little guys? I want an easy way, mind -- I >haven't gotten to the level of dedication that handles instructions like: > 1. hammer brass very thin ... My aiglets are made from brass sheeting bought in small quantities from a craft shop. It is nominally 0.005 thick but they don't quote units(I assume inches since it is an American product). It is thin enough to wobble a lot when in the sheet (4x10") but when cut in small pieces cannot be bent by hand. You will also need a pair of sturdy scissors, a pair of pliers a hammer and a breadboard(or workbench). Cut a small triangle form the brass, about 1cm(I will go back to units that I am more familiar with)on the base and 2-3cm long. You then fold this in three lengthways in stages, enclosing your cord (bought or made) before it is flat and then hammer the whole thing firmly closed. The folding is aided by a pair of long nosed pliers(not the round ended sort). Grip the triangle with the blades of the pliers along the line you want to fold and with some pressure, roll the brass against the breadboard to begin the fold. I usually finish the fold with a gentle application of the hammer. When you have done this, snip the sharp end off so that you don't skewer yourself in the process of lacing or even sitting down. This will hold firmly with no chance of slipping, any type of cord that is thin enough to be squashed in there, including satin ribbon. No glue required Just make sure that the wide end is thin enough to fit through your eyelets. ****Note: this is a how to and is only tenously documentable, they did use metal aiglets, some very simple but I have never seen any in books that have been hammered flat. The Museum of London books call them "lace chapes" and these are small metal tubes or cones, but I couldn't figure out how to quickly and easily make these with no metal working skills. For the person who posted about Indian cone things, maybe if you just glue your cord into these you might have a more authentic version than mine. I can't remember if anyone has posted the biblio for these but I have the books here so .... YES I now own the lovely things! Medieval finds from Excavations in the London c.1150-1450: 1. "Knives and Scabbards" by J. Cowgill, M de Neergaard and N. Griffiths. 2. "Shoes and Pattens" by F. Grew and M. de Neergaard. 3. "Dress Accessories" by G. Egan and F. Prichard 4. "Textiles and Clothing" by E. Crowfoot, F. Pritchard and K. Staniland. Published by HMSO London 1992 For Interest: the references for: -lace chapes: #3 page 281- -tablet woven edging: #4 page 161 -button holes: #4 page 162- -eylets: #4 page 164 -entirely cloth buttons: #4 page 171 #4 contains a reasonable sized chapter on sewing techniques in general, including the specifics mentioned above and is an absolute blessing for the early period costumer who otherwise has to basically rely on illuminations and statues. Good luck everyone Dawn (Viscountess Elayne Montjoy, Lochac) -- -------------------------------+------------------------------------- Dawn Elson | dawn@babel.dialix.oz.au -------------------------------+------------------------------------- ----------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Feb 95 08:43:29 PST From: "Terry L. Wass" Subject: Vest Buttons - 1860's All: I am helping my wife make an 1860's civilian vest (pattern from Past Patterns). She has the flu, so I tought myself how to put on vest pockets yesterday (yes I am proud ). Now to my questions: 1) What type of buttons would you recommend for a civilian vest ? Military usually have brass, but can civilian have bone, wood, shell ? This is for a moderate to low income person. 2) We are making a mockup in muslin first (so I wouldn't butcher my wool). Most references I find discussing vests state they are wool, were cotton vests worn in this period? Thanks in advance for the help. Terry (a newbe to sewing for re-enacting) ------------------------------------- E-mail: atlwrd1@peabody.sct.ucarb.com (Terry L. Wass) ------------------------------------- ----------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 08:14:44 -0800 From: "Nauman, Kathleen A." Subject: RE: Identifying an event by clothing This is a request for a colleague who has a photograph of his great-grandmother and would like to pinpoint the time/event that the picture was taken. She was born in the 1850 and died in the 1939. She lived in Nova Scotia. In the photograph she is wearing a black or dark colored bonnet, tied under the chin with wide taffeta-like ribbon. Her outer garment appears to be ankle length, also black or dark colored, long, very wide A-shaped raglan sleeves. I looks somewhat like a coat, although the front opening only goes to her waist or a little past. She is sitting with her hands folded in front of her so it's hard to see, but it deffinitely does not open all the way down like a coat would. Standing on either side of her are two girls. The youngest looks about 5 or 6, the oldest about 8 or 9. The girls are wearing wide-brimmed straw hats with ribbons for hat bands and a bow at the side of each, also dark colored but not as dark as the woman's bonnet and garment. The girls' dresses are white, long sleeved, mid-claf length, fitted bodices, gathered skirts, and round, ruffled collars. The dresses look identical. I can see faint traces of french lace insets in the skirts, but it's hard to tell for sure. It looks as though they are wearing black stockings. They are each wearing a cross on a chain around their neck. If anyone out there has a clue as to the time period when this style was being worn in Canada, please send to nauman@courier4.aero.org. Thanks ----------------------- End of Volume 223 -----------------------