From: Gretchen Miller Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 17:52:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 224, 2/13/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 224, February 13, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: ISO: Info on 1890s Austrian Military uniforms Sources for pewter/horn buttons and tinkle cones Buttons and fabrics for Victorian era vest Question and answers: 15th C German Dress Making lacings Adapting outfits for the pregnant figure Cloaks Antiqueing metal fittings ----------------------- Subject: 1890 Austrian Uniform To: Costume Info Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 10:52:24 -0600 (CST) Can anyone tell me what color an 1890 Austrian soldier's uniform would have been? I have some good illustrations, but they are all in black & white. My guess is grey with black sleeve cuffs, collar, and belt. ----------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 11:05:38 -0600 (CST) From: Deb Subject: Button & beads vendors Elizabeth Poole ejp@watson.ibm.com expressed interest in where I buy Am.Indian "tinkle cones" (not that I buy them often, since I don't portray an Indian), and Drea Leed aleed@indiana.edu was interested in my sources for cast pewter buttons. My interests are in 1775 or so. These vendors suppy stuff for that time period, and perhaps other time periods. You can certainly USE these items for whatever you like! The discussions were about using tinkle cones for lacing aiglets (I haven't tried it yet) and using pewter buttons for an older time period instead of silver or gold. [Beware that pewter buttons are HEAVY! A guy's coat, with buttons every 1.5inches, for about 17-20 total (he's tall) and 6 more on the pockets -- gets to be quite a weighty coat!] These prices are mostly from 1991, so they may be old. It's conceivable that the addresses are too! Most of these sell much more than buttons, but that's what we're currently discussing, so that's what I've made notes about. Kenockee Tradin' Post flat,raised rim, domed, engraved 7530 Beard Rd buttons. Bulk pricing too. Avoca, MI 48006 $.50 each, but bulk improves it. Anson & Judy Morgan (313)324-2577 Jas. (James) Townsend & Son, Inc pewter buttons 9/16" $.30 133 North First Street 7/8" $.40 P.O. Box 415 brass dome buttons 3/4" or 1" $.85 Pierceton, IN 46562 Has a store; visit if in the area! (800)338-1665 Coreur De Bois Trading Post shell buttons 5/8" $.10 3620 Hooker Rd Pinckney, MI 48169 Frenchy & Carol Yargeau (313)878-9337 Turkey Foot Trading Co advertises many Indian beads; P.O. Box 58 check here for "tinkle cones" Grand Rapids, OH 43522 Allen & Colleen Schroll (410)832-1109 Early Times Trading Co. nice brass buttons Candy Moody 1508 45th Street Moline Il 61265 (309) 764-7130 Thunder River Trade Company horn buttons 1" $.75, 3/8" $.30 4010 Evans Avenue Valparaiso, IN 46383 Russ Hoagland (219)464-3752 Bill Gearhart (219)980-0415 ----------------------- Date: Tue, 07 Feb 95 12:05:58 PST From: "cynthia" Subject: Vest Buttons - 1860's >I am helping my wife make an 1860's civilian vest (pattern from > Past Patterns). She has the flu, so I tought myself how to put on >vest pockets yesterday (yes I am proud ). As well you should be! >1) What type of buttons would you recommend for a civilian vest ? >Military usually have brass, but can civilian have bone, wood, shell ? >This is for a moderate to low income person. All those and pewter, glass, steel, silver, and most popular of all, especially for the black professional vest are cloth covered buttons from the same fabric. I frequently use abalone, as the shells were (and are) common as dirt in Calif. Very showy, great for a card sharp. >2) We are making a mockup in muslin first (so I wouldn't butcher my wool). >Most references I find discussing vests state they are wool, were cotton vests >worn in this period ? Not to my knowledge. I dont think the white pique' for the ballroom comes in until later. Let me defer to others much wiser... Vicki? --cin "If you rebel against high heels, take care to do so with a very smart hat." --George Bernard Shaw ----------------------- From: KTRuby@aol.com Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 18:06:33 -0500 Subject: 15th Century German Dress I am interested in making a 15th Century German dress as illustrated in A History of Costume by Kohler on page 193. It is constructed with a strip cut out of the front up to below the breast then replaced by a wider, pleated strip so that the gown is very wide at the bottom. I haven't seen this type of dress in any of my other sources. I have made up the dress in muslin but I don't want to go too far until I am sure this is authentic, and I'm worried because I haven't seen one like it anywhere. Does anyone have other references of this type of gown? Isabeau Elysia ----------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 19:31:20 -0400 (EST) From: dbrowne Subject: laces If the subject of laces is still of intrest I have found that a lacing that has some texture is best for me. The two ways that I have found to make strong, durable and yes color coordinated is to use eather a "Lucet" to make a braided cord that is almost square in shape. It is very easy to do once you have the "Lyre-shaped" insturment, and can be done in sizes from a single strand of silk embriodary floss to a cord nearly 1/2 inch wide using "Middy-braid". Different colors can be worked into it as well to give even your lacing some intrest. The second way is faster and just as decorative, if not as sturdy. A lot of the pre-1600's lacing that has survived is of this style. Take any pre-twisted cord (3-2 perle, crosheen, what-have-you). Determine which way the twist is going either a "Z-twist or an S-Twist" Then cut lengths of cord, you want about twice as much as what you want to end with, at least. Tie it off to smothing sturdy that will not move, no husbands sitting in front of a ball game doesn't count.:-) Make sure that your twist is all running the same direction. Then attach the other ends to a variable speed drill or power screwdriver, slowly begin to twist the cord together, you will have to be prepared to move with your twisting. It is tight enough when you have reached the point that when you give it a slight amount of slack it will twist on it's self. Tie it off on each end, I use a slip knot. You can add many different colors or keep it plain. It's fun. --Kathy --H.L. Katrinn ----------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Feb 95 20:21:03 PST From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Davis book; waistcoats To those who were interested in buying my used copy of R. I. Davis's _Men's Garments 1830-1900: A Guide to Pattern Cutting_: I gave preference to an old friend to whom I owe many favors, which I hope is OK. The new edition can be bought from Players Press, Inc. PO Box 1132 Studio City, CA 91614 They also sell Jean Hunnisett's _Period Costume for Stage and Screen_. Re Terry Wass's question about whether cotton vests were worn in the 1860s: Blanche Payne states in her _History of Costume_ that during the 1850-1870 period "With sack coats and cutaways [morning coats] the waistcoat still contributed a bit of dash. Brocades, striped satin with floral patterns, raised matelasse designs, dotted vevet, and paisley printed pique are among the fabrics used for mid-century waistcoats in the Brooklyn Museum collection." The Brooklyn Museum catalog _Of Men Only: A Review of Men's and Boys' Fashions, 1750-1975_ shows a number of Victorian waistcoats including one described as "1850-70, shawl waistcoat; cotton; printed shawl design." It has a shawl collar and is off-white with the design in the same color. [I got this catalog in the mid 1970s when it was printed and suspect it is out of print by now.] Louis Devere, in his 1866 tailoring manual _The Handbook of Practical Cutting on the Centre Point System_, in the section on purchasing materials, says "For winter always buy a few of the newest waistcoats [he means fabrics] you can get, and show them early, before your customers can see them elsewhere." So presumably fashionable waistcoats were important. Unfortunately Devere does not describe the type of fabrics used. I own a hand-sewn 1850s linen frock coat. Presumably it was summer and/or casual wear, but is not a style for active sports. I think it unlikely that this coat would have been worn with a wool vest. However, the Victorians did wear cotton vests with wool coats and trousers. Fran Grimble ----------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 23:23:15 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: 15th Century German Dress On Tue, 7 Feb 1995 KTRuby@aol.com wrote: > I am interested in making a 15th Century German dress as illustrated in A > History of Costume by Kohler on page 193. > > It is constructed with a strip cut out of the front up to below the breast > then replaced by a wider, pleated strip so that the gown is very wide at the > bottom. I haven't seen this type of dress in any of my other sources. I am _very_ suspicious of a number of Kohler's "patterns". Some of them I can corroborate from other sources, but a number of them look like they simply won't work. I've never seen any 15th century paintings that showed a style like this, so it's hard to say. On the other hand, there is _some_ corroboration for the concept at least. An earlier medieval tunic from Denmark has a center front gusset (going up to about waist level) where the gusset is pleated at the top. (see Margarete Hald's book on Danish costumes from bogs) I'd hesitate to base arguments for the 15th century cut solely on the basis of this tunic, but it makes me think a little more kindly about the Kohler version in this case. Read Kohler very critically. Heather Rose Jones ----------------------- From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 08 Feb 95 09:08:00 GMT Subject: Pleated Strip I have never seen this illustrated, and not widely mentioned, although I have seen 15th century English references. Apparently putting in this kind of insert was used to cope with pregnancy. The references I've seen refer to side panels being replaced, rather than the front panel. Just a thought Caroline ----------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 08:03:30 -0400 (EST) From: andrea ruth leed Subject: Re: Button & beads vendors Just a note in regards to points-- I went through hell a couple years back, trying to find metal cones to finish off my ribbons. Imagine my surprise (and chagrin) when I found that Ben Franklin Crafts sell them as bolo points. They're not cheap, but they look good, and they come in silver and gold. If you're looking for more of an antiqued finish, rub them with black shoe polish, then rub it off. It tones them down nicely. Drea ============================= aleed@ezmail.ucs.indiana.edu ----------------------- From: Jennifer Bray Date: Wed, 8 Feb 95 13:17:00 GMT Subject: Re: Button & beads vendors >I went through hell a couple years back, trying to find metal cones to >finish off my ribbons. Imagine my surprise (and chagrin) when I found >that Ben Franklin Crafts sell them as bolo points. Pearce Tandy leather sells metal cones as bolo points aswell, as I recall they had a variety of them in their last catalogue. Jennifer ----------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 10:39:03 -0500 (EST) From: Elizabeth McMahon Subject: Re: Pleated Strip On 8 Feb 1995, Mrs C S Yeldham wrote: > I have never seen this illustrated, and not widely mentioned, although I > have seen 15th century English references. Apparently putting in this kind > of insert was used to cope with pregnancy. The references I've seen refer > to side panels being replaced, rather than the front panel. Wow! Interesting! Besides the dress from the Hald bog finds where the front hem is dramatically longer than the back ( a friend made it for herself when she was pregnant and it was perfect), what are other adaptations made medievally for comfort during pregnancy? Do you have anywhere the 15th C. reference to this practice? And what did those queens of stiff-upper-lipness, the Victorians do to accommodate "interesting conditions"? Beth McMahon, curious about where fashion and biology collide -*-*- Beth in the office 212-741-4400 ----------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 10:57:50 -0600 (CST) From: Deb Subject: RE: pregnancies - 18th century There is an example of a 17xx (maybe 1750-ish, I forget) jacket which has several rows (3?) of thread bars acting as places to attach the hooks. You hook into the tightest set when slim, the next set later on, etc. Jackets** were tightly fitted in the 18th century. Even the sack-back gown/jacket is made with a tightly fitted lining/underlayer, to that the front of the jacket stays tight to the body (er, corset). Then the folds-layer of the sack hang loosely behind the fitted lining layer. **high fashion jackets, at least. Lower class, less so. Skirts were frequently done on drawstrings, so those would not be a problem. However, they were also regularly made with a waistband, which would be more of a problem. As the fitted waistband is more elegant, the "high fashion" skirts more often seem to have bands. I don't imagine one GOES to "high fashion" affairs when pregnant, and one's everyday skirts were probably the drawstring ones. Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov ----------------------- From: VICKI@lib.uttyl.edu Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 11:27:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: men's vests and buttons About vests and buttons.... I don't have a lot to add to Fran's reply-- Bill Christen and Bill "Mac" MacIntosh, in "A Short Sketch of Men's Attire in the 1860s," _The Citizens' Companion: The Voice of Civilian Reenacting_, v. 1, no. 4, October/November, 1994, pp.10-15-- Vests or Waistcoats -- These were often made from silk and common wools, often matching coats and trousers. Still worn with almost any coat. -- Most vests lined with white polished cotton. -- Backs from brown, black, or white polished cotton. -- Commonly made in subtle colors and patterns (by the 1860s vests started losing the color and flamboyance of the early part of the century). -- Most had a shawl collar and lapels, and any number of pockets. -- Adjusted in the back with straps and buckle or a series of eyelets for lacing. -- Cut straight across the bottom. -- Low cut vests worn with evening wear. If the cloth was patterned, it was subtly done such as white embroidery on a white background. High cut vests worn with everyday attire. Single- breasted vests could be worn with either single or double breasted coats, but a double breasted vest could only be worn with a double- breasted coat. >From the same article-- Vests--Working clothes--similar to or matching trousers Every Day & Business Clothes--(see trousers)--Wool, linen or blend, solid, tweed, or plaid, sometimes lighter or contrasting with frock coats of black, navy or dark brown Full Dress & Evening Wear--Fine black wool or fancy white cloth, can be embroidered or silk brocaded (self-covered buttons on all or pearl on white cloth). >From Michael R. Thomas, _A Confederate Sketchbook_. By the author, 1981. Page 7 shows a civilian vest worn by M. Page Lapham of the Washington Artillery of New Orleans. The vest is black velvet lined with two layers of cloth, one of cotton and one of felt, with the back of brown cotton. The buttons were cloth covered wooden ball buttons. Original at the Museum of the Confederacy, Richmond, VA. >From William Harlan Shaw's _American Men's Wear, 1861-1982_. Baton Rouge: Oracle Press, 1982, p. 7, vests from the beginning of the Civil War in 1861 to 1879 are described partially as: "Fabric matched coat at times. Plaid, checks, embroidered or quilted patterns popular. Solid light colored wool and red velvet frequently seen. Black satin or white pique for formal. White pique fold inside vest called "gilet."" The Steamship Arabia Museum in Kansas City has a selection of buttons on display which can be dated exactly to 1856. These were not attached to vests, but would indicate what ready-made buttons were available in Kansas City and points west at that time. The Arabia collection includes: 1) Black hard rubber buttons roughly the size of a quarter, two holes, some plain with a simple narrow edge, some with six-pointed faceted stars, and some with advertising and patent information on the front. 2) Plain white china buttons, about 3/8" across, four holes. (I think of them as underwear buttons.) 3) Calico china buttons, about 3/8 to 1/2" across, four holes, red on white, maroon on white, and blue on white, some with lines across, some with a netting design, some with diamonds, some with dot designed flowers, some with little x's, some with squiggly lines. 4) Black china or glass buttons, about 3/8" across, four holes, very shiny. 5) Wooden buttons, wide flat outside edge, four holes, various shades, about 1/2-5/8" across. 6) Glass and brass buttons, shank, domed, 3/8" across, of several types-- dark blue swirled edged in brass with no decoration, the same in a light clouded blue glass; emerald green glass edged in brass with a substatial five-pointed brass star in the center; pink glass edged in brass with a small six pointed star (?) in the center, and the same in medium blue. 7) Brass shank buttons that appear of a military design, although I can't make out what exactly the design on the top is, slightly domed, about 3/8" across. 8) Brass shank buttons, domed, stippled with additional dot impressions, about 1/2" across. Note: The Arabia has put out a really nice jigsaw puzzle with a selection of their buttons, plus pins, hooks and eyes, small scissors, and thimbles. Since their book is not out yet, the puzzle top makes a good reference source, but just a trifle difficult to cite! Cindy--thanks for the shoemaking information. Right now I'm in the middle of an early 19th century daycap, with slat bonnet to follow. I also have to get some working stays made before a three day Civil War refugee flight in the Indian Territory this June.....but I'll get to it! Vicki Betts University of Texas at Tyler vicki@lib.uttyl.edu ----------------------- From: "Lassman, Linda" Subject: Re: Cloaks Date: Wed, 08 Feb 95 10:27:00 PST >On Mon, 6 Feb 1995 cpecourt@mhv.net wrote: > >> Hello >> I am in the thinking stages of creating a cloak out of coat wool. >> I would like to know about how many yards I am going to need for a full >> circle , ankle length cloak. I am 5'8" tall. Also, whats the best way to >> cut the precious wool once I get it? > > Chantal, > I get 6.33 yards of 55-60" wide fabric cut into two half >circles. This is assuming that you're 55 inches from the back of the >neck to the ankle, and have a 15 inch neck. Get an even 7 yards if you >want to face the bottom edge instead of the tedious turning under and >gathering that a curved hem takes. Just cut a 2" wide strip that matches >the curve of the circle off of the bottom of your cloak, measure too long >to account for this. Then you have a narrow piece that magically matches >the curve of the hem. I line cloaks by making an identical cloak from >the lining, attaching them at the front and neck and letting them hang >for a few days to stretch out. Even up the bottom edge of the lining and >shorten by a few inches and hem independently of the cloak. To keep them >from shifting too much, I tack the layers together at the bottom using >chain loops or ribbon strips to allow slack. > If you are in the SCA, there is an article in _The Known World >Handbook_ called "The Geometry of the Circle cloak" which is invaluable. > >_____________________________________________ >|-/ | -/ | D of neck circle=5" >| -55"- | -/ | R = 2.5" >| | -/ | cut R to 1.8" >| |/ | 5/8" seam >| / | >| /| | >| /- | | >| /- | | >| /- | | >|_____________/-_______|__________________/-| > > >gf > >*Gwyn Ferguson***Western Illinois University >*SCA: Lady Gwyndlyn Caer Vyrddin***Lochmorrow-Midrealm >*Internet: mugjf@bgu.edu Don't forget that the length over your shoulders is probably longer than your length from neck to ground in front and back. I can't count the number of full-circle cloaks I've seen that drag in the front and back and ride almost at ankle length at the side! A technique from tailoring (used to keep sleeve linings from pulling around) that you might consider to keep the lining from shifting around is once you've let the cloak and lining hang for several days (the longer you can afford to do this, the better, IMHO!), use a running stitch to attach the seam allowance of the lining to that of the cloak. You don't have to do this the entire length of the seam, but I'd suggest at least 2/3 of it. I will also admit that, after numerous bad experiences with ripped hems and caught heels, I prefer to sew the lining to my cloak all the way around the hem. It's a lot more work, but if it's properly stretched prior to hemming, it will work. Regarding allowing the cloak to stretch prior to hemming, the most satisfactory method is to hang the cloak from a dressmaker's dummy (preferably one that fits you, of course!), so long as the dummy is set tall enough so the cloak doesn't rest on the ground. That way the stretching will at least approximate the way it will hang on your body, rather than from a clotheshanger! If you can't get ahold of a dressmaker's dummy but know someone who has a breast- and backplate, you can use that instead--but you'll need a number of sturdy clotheshangers and a really sturdy closet rod to hang the whole thing from, because it'll be really heavy! - Linda Lassman ----------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 10:04:10 -0800 From: Alison Kondo To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Buttons I liked the idea of black shoe polish to antique metal findings. I use the really cheap black nail polish for the same effect. I coat gives a "nickel silver"-ish finish. I haven't tried it on gold-coloured metal yet. Alison ----------------------- End of Volume 224 -----------------------