From: Gretchen Miller Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 19:42:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 226, 2/14/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 226, February 14, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Question about "Queen Anna's New World of Words" Announcement "Interweave Forum: Nature's Dyes"June, Colorodo Buttoning which side Buttoning the surcoat to the cotehardie Aiglet supplier Victorian maternity wear Mock up warning ISO Info on basic materials/colors for Renaissance costuming Anyone missing a digest? Question and answer: Closures for a cloak ----------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:20:29 NST From: Perry Wagle Subject: Re: wonderful resource! > Florio, John: "Queen Anna's New World of Words", > printed by Melch. Bradford, London 1611. > facsimile edition by The Scolar Press Limited, > Menston (England) 1968. Is it still $114? I ordered mine 6-7 years ago, it listed at $70 or so, came in at $97, quickly followed by an "oops! that was supposed to be $114!" note in the mail to the bookstore I ordered it from. Grumble. The real point of this note, though, is to point out that Florio: (1) published several editions, (2) also published grammars, which our local university library's copy contains, but the copy I got doesn't. I have felt it was worth the $114. -- Perry ----------------------- Date: 09 Feb 95 18:56:25 EST From: Subject: Natural dye conference FYI - For anyone interested in natural dyes, Jim Liles will be lecturing on "Production of Historic & other Clothing Using Natural Dyes" at this forum. He has been very involved in historical reproduction of clothing for many years. AN INTERWEAVE FORUM : NATURE'S DYES June 14 - 18, 1995 An Interweave Forum: Nature's Dyes, sponsored by Interweave Press, is a five day gathering focusing on the use of natural dyes in art, craft, history, and commerce. Hands-on experience, information-sharing sessions, and exhibits of contemporary and historic work will provide an unparalleled experience for those studying and working with natural dyes. Nature's Dyes is being held at Colorado State University in Fort Collins, Colorado, June 14-18, 1995. Ten hands-on workshops plus 15 seminars & lectures will span over five days. Workshop topics range in subject from general fiber dyeing with roots, insects,plants, lichens, mushrooms, and flowers to specific techniques drawn from cultures such as Africa, India, Japan, and Turkey. Presenting the workshops and seminars are Anne Bliss(CO), Karen Casselman(Canada), Joyce Herold(CO), Jim Liles(KY), M. Joan Lintault(IL), Connie Magoffin(MN), John Marshall(CA), Dorothy Miller(CA), Miriam Rice(CA), Jean Schulman(AL), Ginny Tyson(MD), Karen Urbanek(CA), Trudy Van Stralen (Canada), Michele Wipplinger(WA), and Jennie Wood(NH). A panel presentation, "Ecology, Environment, and Ethics," will debate the current ideas and concerns of natural dye use in the 1990's. Seminars will address such topics as: Advances of natural dyes in industry, Cultivating a natural dye garden, Oriental rug production through cottage industry in Turkey, Reproduction of colors of historical clothing, and more. Special activities at Nature's Dyes are an evening of dye folklore storytelling, a dye recipe exchange, a video and book library for browsing, natural dye shirt stamping and printing, and a general evening of workshop sharing. Inexpensive on-campus housing and meals are available at Colorado State University. For a Nature's Dyes brochure, send a request to: Interweave Press, Nature's Dyes, 201 E. Fourth St., Loveland, CO 80537 ----------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 19:53:08 -0500 (EST) From: charles godfrey Subject: Re: Buttons On Mon, 6 Feb 1995, Joe Marfice wrote: > Has anyone else noticed the large amount of "I always heard it was > because..." stories about the origin of the male RH / female LH button > tradition? > > If I might summarize this thread so far, omitting quotes for brevity: > 6 responses pointed to swords as the cause. I was one of those sources I bet. I responded from my AOL account. I stated that I had read in a book on the history of duelling and fencing, that several modern practices came about because of the rapier being worn (usually) on the left side. Men drew their swords with their right hand. This was because they were right handed(except for a few rare lefties). There left hand was then free to remove a doublet or cloak or draw a main gauche (a fighting dagger). Using the left hand for defense in some manner, was very wise and often could save your life! If you want references...as I stated I can't remember the title of that particular book, but you can find information on duelling techniques straight from the masters themselves. Reprints of the books (translated into English in some cases) are available. Saviolo, Silver, Capa Fara, etc. A good place to start---Methods and Practice of Elizabethan Swordplay...I can't remember the publisher or author(s) but Museum Replicas sells it and it is available in some libraries(check your local university). Or try ordering it from the bookstore. Men escorted women with the woman on the left for these reasons as well. > 4 responses beckoned the servants for the source of the tradition. I have > heard this rumour, too. > 1 felt that women's blouses were designed to make it easier for the man > to get into, an idea of which I must admit has some appeal. (OK, to > be fair, he didn't put it quite that way...) Actually, I prefer the logic of...It is easier for women to unbutton their shirt so the baby can breast feed. Women traditionally held babies in their left arms while breast feeding! > 2 responses blamed modern manufacturing & merchandizing for standardizing > the buttoning scheme. > 3 provided evidence or hearsay of "indiscriminate" buttoning patterns > (M or F garments buttoned either way). > > Notice that only the latter group of responses have provided evidence--is > what we have before us a collection of apocryphal stories? You've heard > of "urban myth" (I presume); is this "costume myth"? Seriously, since > the evidence for "M&F shirts buttoning both left- and right-handed" seems > to exist at least into the 1800's (or possibly early 1900's), it seems > unlikely that any explanation involving swords is plausible. > > Likewise, I doubt the servant stories, partly because of the evidence > suggests that this had no effect until at least the last century (haven't > servants been around much longer than that?), > and partly because it stretches me to imagine the poor, huddled masses > imitating the upper class to the point of making blouses more > difficult to put on, all for a subtle difference in looks. The bit about > "it was made easier for the man of the couple to undo" > just doesn't wash for me, either--"No daughter of mine's gonna wear a shirt > some guy can unbutton!!!." > > But the manufacturing "powers-that-be" _deciding_ how to make shirts work, > now that I can buy (and I have to, since they make the shirts that I > don't). As for why women's are different than men's, yeah, maybe it's > because the fashion industry wanted to make a difference. Maybe they > did it for psychological reasons (check out what they do with women's > sizes, on that note); maybe to make it easy for stores to separate their > inventory (I can't tell you how many times the cool shirt I found turned > out to be a woman's blouse, with way-too-short sleeves). But this is > still a guess; don't quote me as knowing anything... :{) > > Thanks to Fran Grimble (aterry@teknowledge.com) for her references. It's > the first, hard-dated evidence from recent centuries that I've heard. > I myself haven't contributed any, I must admit... seeing letter length>...but there's my tuppence. > > > | Broom, at The Lady Perrine > | aka Joe Marfice > | Ministerium honor est. > \|/ which means "Don't check under the bed--you don't want to know." > /|\ 513-222-2330 233 Perrine Street > //|\\ af289@dayton.wright.edu Dayton (my fayre citee), OH 45410 > Hope this helps. ----------------------- Date: Thu, 09 Feb 95 17:34:39 PST From: "cynthia" Subject: Re: Buttons on the left or right >Actually, I prefer the logic of...It is easier for women to unbutton their shirt so the baby >can breast feed. Women traditionally held babies in their left arms while breast feeding! That's odd. Modern babies feed from both sides. It's easier to switch arms and rotate the baby 180'. I'm no expert tho'. --cin ----------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 20:05:01 -0800 (PST) From: Catherine Kehl Subject: Re: Surcotes and Cothardies On Thu, 9 Feb 1995, Diana Dills wrote: > I, too have seen a passing reference, perhaps just a surmise, that > cothardies buttoned through surcotes. Maybe they didn't all button > through, but quite often functional buttons evolve into decorative > ones as fashions change. So I believe it is possible, and maybe > even likely... >From what I remeber, it was more the other way around. As the front panels became narrower, it became necessary to button them to the underdresses to support the weight of the skirts.... (Or so swore the book I was reading at the time, for what it's worth.) Catherine ----------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Feb 95 22:07:35 PST From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Aiglets and maternity wear Greenberg & Hammer sells aiglets under the heading "cord tips." They are available in 1" or 2" size, filagreed, in gold or silver color. Price is 30 cents each, $3/dozen, or $24.95/gross. To get a free catalog from Greenberg & Hammer (who also sell corset and hoop supplies, and a huge selection of other sewing and tailoring supplies), write or call Greenberg & Hammer, Inc. 24 West 57th St. New York, NY 10019-3918 (212) 246-2835 & 2836 About Victorian maternity wear--one solution was the "wrapper" or "tea gown" (a fancier version of the same thing). Folkwear sells a pattern for a basic 1890s wrapper. This was a gown with a sash-tied waist, a loose front, and sometimes a Watteau back and various fancy details. Although it was often worn at home whenever a comfortable gown was desired, it was associated closely enough with pregnancy to be considered unsuitable for young unmarried women. Another solution must have been to simply let out ordinary clothes, which I'd think would work for many styles at least for the first few months. I used to own an 1880s petticoat which had been let out on either side of the waistband in six or so increments of about 1 1/2", to make a huge waistband. I believe this was to accommodate pregnancy. The rest of the petticoat did not show an unusual amount of piecing (which might have been the case if the sewer was short on fabric) and it's unusual to gain so much weight (unless over a period of years, by which time the petticoat would have worn out) unless pregnant. Fran Grimble ----------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 12:17:48 -0500 (EST) From: "K.C. Kozminski" Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 219, 2/8/95 Hi Sarah, Your comments on patterns for close-fitting garments brings to mind another major caution: On Thu, 9 Feb 1995, Sarah Randles wrote: > >From: andrea ruth leed > >Subject: Re: Wearing Costume > A word of warning about choosing fabric to make a mock up. Some years ago, > I went through a stage of having problems with bodices. I made mock-ups and > fitted them all, then took the pattern off the mock-up and cut it out of the > good fabric, interfaced and lined it and then tried it on again, and then it > didn't fit. In one case I couldn't even get into it. > Always, if you can, transfer your fitting mock-up onto paper or a non-woven material such as pellon. Fabric can streach and distort when you're trying to use it as the pattern itself. It took me years before I'd believe this, but it makes a *huge* difference in the accuracy of your patterns (Most of my students think I'm just being anal retentative when I make them take this extra step, little do they know the grief I'm saving them!) KC Kozminski ----------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 10:57:02 -0800 (PST) From: samhainsghost To: Mrs C S Yeldham Can I ask a wierd question,wouldn't a pleated strip in the center front make it kind of hard to walk without stepping on the front of your dress? Ones on the sides would work, and one in the back would look great, but I can see it for pregnancy. Except didn't pregnant women kind of just stay in at that period or was that later. Anyway..I'll stop my ignorant ramblings now. Waiting eagerly for your thoughts. ---------------------------------------------------------- Value your friends...some people don't have any....there are grumpy old men dying of a lack of hugs somewhere . SAMHAIN@PACIFICRIM.NET ---------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Feb 95 15:15:50 EST From: Valerie Elacqua Subject: Typical Fabrics and colors To: From: Valerie Elacqua Can anyone suggest what fabrics were typically used during the Rennaisance in the courts of Europe. Also what colors were most common? ----------------------- From: cpecourt@mhv.net Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 15:53:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Cloaks (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >From: John Dow Since this topic has come up, I'll ask the same question here I asked on the SCA newsgroup. Does anyone have any preferred methods of CLOSING the front of the cloak? (Ties? Buttons?) Since the cloak I'll be making first is for a friend who doesn't really care, it doesn't matter what period the closure is from (although it might be neat to know. It's not that important though. :) I have a cloak that ties, and I'm not really impressed with the way it looks, so any other ideas would be greatly appreciated. (Personal experiances are good too. If you had problems with a cloak with a specific type of closure, TELL ME! :) Thanks. -The quiet one (De-lurking to ask. :) ----------------------- From: KINDREDFOX@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 17:05:49 -0500 Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume ... Hi- I received #219 and #221 today, but no #220. Is this just an oops in the numbering, or did I miss something? Have enjoyed the digests. Thanks much- Annette ----------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 16:17:03 -0600 (CST) From: Deb Subject: RE: Cloaks (fwd) As for closures, my favorite cloak closes with just a large hook. "Coat" size, from a regular fabric store. BUT ... whatever you close a cloak with ... it is important to MAKE it correctly so that the weight doesn't all pull to the back and choke you. My first cloak was built wrong, somehow, and after wearing it for one evening, I had a bruised adams-apple and any touch (neckline, etc) for several MONTHS felt like I was choking. I remember reading (here, probably) that it is important to have shoulders cut into the cloak, not just a full circle pattern, to help the weight fall forward rather than backwards. Anyway, my really comfortable cloak is made from a "Kinsale Cloak" pattern bought through AmazonWorks, though I don't recall who makes the pattern. Someone on the list is sure to know that detail ... I used a suit weight wool /poly blend and a polyester silk-look lining. Since it has modern fabrics, I don't wear it for re-enacting, but I love wearing it around in the spring & fall, to work, shopping ... I get loads of raves about it, too! ----------------------- End of Volume 226 -----------------------