From: Gretchen Miller Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 19:54:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 227, 2/14/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 227, February 14, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Buttoning on the surcote Cloak closures Buttoning on which side ISO Info on Elizabethan collar (Falling band?) Cotehardie article request Buttons available AOL mail problems Instructions for fetching the h-costume archives Possible source for nice penannular broaches Fitting the sideless surcote Documenting with Durer ----------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 19:09:31 -0400 (EST) From: andrea ruth leed Subject: Re: Surcotes and Cothardies I myself recall having seen a picture ( I can't rememeber where, of course) of a woman wearing a sideless surcoate over a cotehardie, with buttons through it. I don't know whether the buttons were sewn on or buttoned through. But I know from experience that sideless surcotes are very unstable garments, slipping off one shoulder and then the other, and falling backwards on occasion--buttons would be a good idea. On Thu, 9 Feb 1995, Catherine Kehl wrote: > > > On Thu, 9 Feb 1995, Diana Dills wrote: > > > I, too have seen a passing reference, perhaps just a surmise, that > > cothardies buttoned through surcotes. Maybe they didn't all button > > through, but quite often functional buttons evolve into decorative > > ones as fashions change. So I believe it is possible, and maybe > > even likely... > > >From what I remeber, it was more the other way around. As the front > panels became narrower, it became necessary to button them to the > underdresses to support the weight of the skirts.... (Or so swore the > book I was reading at the time, for what it's worth.) > > Catherine > > ============================= aleed@ezmail.ucs.indiana.edu ----------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 19:21:36 -0400 (EST) From: andrea ruth leed Subject: Re: Cloaks (fwd) There's lots of ways to close cloaks. Buttons are one, though not as period as other alternatives; I have one cloak with a button sewn on either side of the front closure, and a leather thong attatched that winds around them both. You can get frog closures, little fabric knots and loops, at any fabric store. You can just have a lace on either side and tie them together, though with some types of cloaks this can lead to strangulation as the weight of the hood pulls it back. Pinning it is something that was often done. A celtic brooch, or something along that line is both the prettiest (in my opinion) and period choice. Brooches are expensive and harder to come by than the other options, but you can whip up one of your own using one of those rigid, open bracelets--kind of like a wrist torc--and a sharpened piece of thick brass. The biggest problem with cloak brooches is accidentaly impaling someone when you give them a hug. Have fun, Drea On Fri, 10 Feb 1995 cpecourt@mhv.net wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 16:01:17 -0500 (EST) > From: John Dow > To: cpecourt@mhv.net > Subject: Re: Cloaks > > > Since this topic has come up, I'll ask the same question here > I asked on the SCA newsgroup. > Does anyone have any preferred methods of CLOSING the front of > the cloak? (Ties? Buttons?) Since the cloak I'll be making first is for > a friend who doesn't really care, it doesn't matter what period the > closure is from (although it might be neat to know. It's not that > important though. :) I have a cloak that ties, and I'm not really impressed > with the way it looks, so any other ideas would be greatly appreciated. > (Personal experiances are good too. If you had problems with a cloak > with a specific type of closure, TELL ME! :) > > Thanks. > > -The quiet one > (De-lurking to ask. :) > > > ============================= aleed@ezmail.ucs.indiana.edu ----------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Feb 95 17:17:58 PST From: susanf@EERC.Berkeley.Edu (Susan Fatemi) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 223, 2/10/95 Re: Left / right closings I'm sure I read somewher (other than the list) that the male vs. female closings became standardized with manufactured, i.e. late 19th c., clothing. Are we taking a vote?? My special perspective on the topic is as follows: Traditionally, Asian (i.e. from Japan to Turkey) clothing closes left over right. In Japan, the dead are dressed right over left. Central Asian caftans close left over right, etc. So I assumed that the "natural" closing was the masculine one, and it was some Western need to distinguish female garb that made the female closing "backwards". But...I saw some pictures of Haniwa figures (ca. pre-600 Japan, I think) and the woman is wearing a "riding costume" with a closely-fittiing, "right over left" jacket and full (palazzo) pants. (very cute actually, I wonder if I could copy it. hmmm...) Just my pointless contribution to this discussion, and and effort to keep from getting overwhelmingly Eurocentric. Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu p.s. I've always loved the kind of collar I think of as Mary Queen of Scots (although I may be thinking of Mary Tudor) It's pre-ruff, and kind of stands up nicely by itself, probably white linen. the effect is like if you're wearing a white shirt and turn the collar up ala James Dean. If anyone understands this description, could you suggest where I might find out how to make one?? Is boning/stiffening required?? Thanks. ----------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 21:54:06 -0600 (CST) From: Mary M Spila Subject: Buttons and stuff Hi, Just creeping out of the woodwork, `cause 2 things were mentioned that are near and dear to my heart. 1) Coathardie article: Yes! I am very interested in the article, but in the interest in saving both bandwidth and the kind lady some money, could the bibliographic information be posted here. I work in a library and can get something ILL'ed very easily. 2) Buttons: I am currently looking a several BOXES of metal shanked buttons that I am willing to trade for other things of interest. There are matched suit buttons (both the buttons for the front of the jacket and for the sleeves) in gold tone and in silver tone. I also have small (1/2 inch ish) solid buttons that appear to be brass. As I said I am open to trades. The source of the buttons is a relative of mine who works for a clothing manufacturer. For the most part the matching buttons are crested, and I forget what is on the solid ones. Mary/Marian mms6824@tntech.edu PS: Anyone know where I can get linen at a good price (under 10.00/yard)? ----------------------- From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Re: Missing Digest? (AOL members take note.) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 21:45:11 -0800 (PST) America On-Line members take note: > Hi- I received #219 and #221 today, but no #220. Is this just an oops in the > numbering, or did I miss something? Have enjoyed the digests. Thanks much- The gateway for aol.com has been down for a few days. The digest probably bounced because of that and was not delivered. In fact, aol.com goes down quite a bit and the AOL administrators are aware of the problem but figure it'll be summer before it can be fixed, so you can expect it to happen again. I'd suggest that anytime you don't get a digest you check the back issues to see if the one you are missing exits there. Missing digest deliveries due to machine outages is quite a common problem. Archived issues are available via automatic retrieval, using e-mail, from majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Note that archived digests are stored by year/month/day of creation, rather than by volume number. To get an index of available back issues of this list, send a message with the words: index h-costume in the body of the message, to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Then use the command: get h-costume filename where "filename" is the name of the file you want, to retrieve the named file. Multiple requests per message are allowed. -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch today. :-) ----------------------- Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 01:27:51 -0800 (PST) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: Cloaks (fwd) I have a 3/4 circle cape with tailored shoulders and a very deep hood. It's "fur" lined and very heavy. I have it rigged so that the front edges overlap about 8 inches. The outside overlap hooks with a large decorative clasp and the inside one has a loop and button. Closed up tight it stays neatly on my shoulders. If I want it on as a loose, open, drape, I can catch the hook part of the clasp (on the right edge) on the loop (which is on the left edge); the button (8 inches in on the inside left doesn't show, and clasp hook (same place on right but on ouside) is semi-hidden under the hood. This should work just as well with two clasps, but at the time I made it I lived in Chicago and didn't want metal near my body in the winter. ******************************************************* I am the mother of all things, and all things must wear a sweater! ******************************************************* Sarah E. Goodman goodston@well.sf.ca.us Senior Designer and Chief Cat Herder goodston@netcom.com Wee Cottage Daly City, California, USA ******************************************************** ----------------------- Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 01:35:14 -0800 (PST) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: Cloaks (fwd) BTW, if anyone needs a Celtic broach, let me know and I'll check and see if Arlin Robins is still doing them. She has two sizes (one pretty much exactly the size of the Tara Broach and the other about the size of an old silver dollar) and does them in both silver and bronze. (Assuming all of above is in present tense.) Don't remember the prices at all, but in general Arlin's stuff is reasonable For What It Is. (Hand crafted jewelry is never cheap!) If you are going to use any sort of pin through the fabric and the cloak is of a tight weave or is lined I heartily recommend making permanent eyelets to run the pin through. On the other hand, I have several fairly loose woven ruanas that I pin up with broaches all the time. ******************************************************* I am the mother of all things, and all things must wear a sweater! ******************************************************* Sarah E. Goodman goodston@well.sf.ca.us Senior Designer and Chief Cat Herder goodston@netcom.com Wee Cottage Daly City, California, USA ******************************************************* ----------------------- From: CGodfrey10@aol.com Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 09:22:32 -0500 Subject: Mail addresses Hi. I just wanted to ask that all personal replies to me should be carbon copied to my internet account at school. I appreciate your cooperation. address is: godfrec@riscy.forsyth.tec.nc.us Thanks, Derek ----------------------- Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 10:02:40 -0500 From: Beverly Roden Subject: Sideless Surcotes (a Defense) In defense of Sideless Surcotes - which have been much maligned of recent (in MY opinion) on this forum. A PROPERLY made sideless surcote should NOT slide off your body (think about it - would it have been such a popular garment for SUCH a LONG time if had been totally impractical?) Sideless surcotes for women were an adaptation of men's fighting surcotes. As the men's garments were open on the sides (and heraldic), the theory i have seen is that women's developed in that fashion, as well. Early women's sideless surcotes resembled a sleeveless overgarment that was open (to varying degrees, mostly down to the waist) on the sides. These could be thrown over the head and worn over your kirtle your wore around the house when you wanted to go outside. They allowed easy access (for the wearer) to belt, keys, scrip and chatelaine. They could be easily removed by lifting the neck opening over your head, and bringing the side hole over your head, then allowing the garment to fall to the ground, and you can step out of it quite easily (the above is personal experience!). I have made these early cotes, mid-period cotes which are narrower in the front than the back (thus framing the woman's figure for the front viewer), and the very narrow sideless surcotes. I have found that the key to making a successful cote is in fitting the shoulders, and making the neckline appropriate to the wearer. I have sloping shoulders, so I fit all costumes accordingly. Look at illuminations (A Medieval Woman's Book of Days, Books of Hours, etc.) for examples. If you think of this as a sleeveless DRESS that is not sewn together on the sides (and my examples show sideless surcotes open to the point of the hip) and you fit it to the wearer (and, no, you cannot fit yourself - get a friend to help), you will have a very successful garment. I am 5'9", and and made a VERY full velvet sideless surcote (with a reasonable train and lots of fullness on the side) with 4 yards of fabric. My scrap was a handfull of shavings - no useable fabric, no waste. If you think about the cost of fabric during the period, and the amount of labour that went into every piece of yardage, and that these heraldic garments were passed down thru generations, this is a wonderful, practical garment for everyday wear! Beverly Roden ac508@dayton.wright.edu ----------------------- Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 09:55:17 -0800 (PST) From: samhainsghost Subject: Re: Cloaks (fwd) Oddly enough I had a medium weight cloak of the "just for looks" variety that fastened with two of those orientalish "frog" closures. The cloak was well balanced across the shoulders so it stayed on reasonably well even without a clasp, but thats the advantage of making one from heavy sweat shirting. ( Ah you should have seen how it flowed and rippled in the wind ) The big advantage of the frogs is that they come in a loty of colors and the white ones can even be died if you're careful so that they don't stand out at all. ----------------------------------------------------------- Value your friends...some people don't have any....there are grumpy old men dying of a lack of hugs somewhere . SAMHAIN@PACIFICRIM.NET ----------------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 10 Feb 1995 cpecourt@mhv.net wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 16:01:17 -0500 (EST) > From: John Dow > To: cpecourt@mhv.net > Subject: Re: Cloaks > > > Since this topic has come up, I'll ask the same question here > I asked on the SCA newsgroup. > Does anyone have any preferred methods of CLOSING the front of > the cloak? (Ties? Buttons?) Since the cloak I'll be making first is for > a friend who doesn't really care, it doesn't matter what period the > closure is from (although it might be neat to know. It's not that > important though. :) I have a cloak that ties, and I'm not really impressed > with the way it looks, so any other ideas would be greatly appreciated. > (Personal experiances are good too. If you had problems with a cloak > with a specific type of closure, TELL ME! :) > > Thanks. > > -The quiet one > (De-lurking to ask. :) > > > ----------------------- Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 10:07:58 -0800 (PST) From: samhainsghost Subject: Re: Add to digest list? How do we get a Raiments catalog, oh tame ook? -------------------------------------------------------- Value your friends...some people don't have any....there are grumpy old men dying of a lack of hugs somewhere . SAMHAIN@PACIFICRIM.NET ------------------------------------------------------- On 11 Feb 1995, Gary Anderson wrote: > Hello. This is Gary, the allegedly tame Ook for Raiments. We are a mail > order company specializing in books, patterns, and findings for historical > clothing and costuming from about AD 650 to the 1950s. It would seem to be > a very good idea to get on the digest of h-costume. Could we get this done? > > Much thanks, > > Gary > > > ----------------------- From: "2Lt Aryeh J.S. Nusbacher" Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 223, 2/10/95 Date: Sat, 11 Feb 95 15:40:47 EST > Date: Mon, 06 Feb 1995 16:34:35 -0500 > From: Joe Marfice > Subject: Buttons > 6 responses pointed to swords as the cause. > 4 responses beckoned the servants for the source of the tradition. I > have heard this rumour, too. These are not incompatible one with the other. > Seriously, since the evidence for "M&F shirts buttoning both left- and > right-handed" seems to exist at least into the 1800's (or possibly early > 1900's), it seems unlikely that any explanation involving swords is > plausible. Doesn't seem unlikely to me. My full-dress and undress uniform tunics are both late-Victorian patterns, and they are both worn with a sword. To characterise the sword argument as implausible is to underestimate, I think, the effect of military influences on civilian clothing. Furthermore, considering that shirts were pretty much always worn underneath at least a waistcoat, and that they did not have buttons much below the sternum until -- what -- late 19th century; I suggest that the shirt buttons follow the coat buttons. And it's easier for right-handed people to manipulate left-over-right plackets. I think. Aryk Nusbacher ----------------------- Date: Sat, 11 Feb 95 14:08:42 PST From: renpunk@prostar.com (Ren Punk) Subject: Durer Helo to all, I have'nt had much time to post to this forum in the last few months but since Durer is one of my favorite artist I had to say something about this topic. d> all of Durer's bodies are out of porportion, thus the clothing is d> also out of proportion. Example, note the length of forearm on most d> of his women, they are drawn at least 6 inchesd too long. While I agree with this statement it is not exclusive to Durer many medieval and Renaissance artists used exagerated proportion. This however should not be a hinderance if you are making the garment. Hopefully you are making it for someone who is in propotion and will draft the pattern for that body not for someone with a forearm 6 inches to long. d> Please look to Durer for ideas but do not expect to replicate his d> style. I must disagree with this. I would say Please look to Durer for ideas but not for measurements. David S. McDonald --- * Freddie 1.2.5 * Non est quis esse sed quid portare! ----------------------- End of Volume 227 -----------------------