From: Gretchen Miller Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 18:27:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 229, 2/20/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 229, February 20, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Possible source of early 20thC corsets Sources of affordable linen Tips for making t-tunics Siberian clothing ISO: Info on country house dress in 1880s Sweden 15th C German costuming The Madness of King George 15th Century shirts Maternity wear in the 18th C Circle cloaks and Kinsale capes Paste jewelry ----------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 15:16:57 PST From: Eleanor Farrell Subject: Early 20th century corsets I don't know if these corsets are still available through commercial sources, but I have often seen them in vintage fashion shops or at the large Vintage Fashion Expo (and other) shows. These large shows are held weekends several times a year in Northern and Southern California - I don't know about other parts of the country... ----------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 16:23:54 -0800 (PST) From: Gwen Carnegi Subject: Linen (was Re: Buttons and stuff) One of my favorite fabric shopping stops is at the Rose Bowl or Pasadena City College Antique Swap-meet where I would buy old bed linens for anywhere from $7.50 to $25.00 per sheet. I'm sure your hometown must have a local antique swap or flea market where you can find such goodies. These are linen sheets that have aged beautifully; they do not wrinkle like modern linen, the weave is much denser and has a heavier weight. If you pull out a single yarn, it is crinkled and flat. One of faculty in the texiles dept. suggested that the fibers become flat with the repeated ironing they suffer as sheets. They only seem to come in different shades of white, off-white, and slightly grey with age. These sheets are quite large- I have managed to make a pair of summer trousers a'la 1930's Fred Astaire and a large men's elizabethian shirt all out of one piece. You could easily contruct a volumous "T" tunic out of one and have many left overs. As a matter of fact- a early coptic would be perfect. Gwyn Carnegie gcarnegi@netcom.com ---------------------------------------------------------- "All women are crazy and all men are stupid. Once you resign yourself to the idea, the entire realm of human relations becomes much more understandable." -Katie Marmor ---------------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 10 Feb 1995, Mary M Spila wrote: > PS: Anyone know where I can get linen at a good price (under 10.00/yard)? ----------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 18:57:52 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: t-tunics On Sun, 12 Feb 1995 gst6710@msu.oscs.montana.edu wrote: > I have found many useful bits of information here, so I thought I might de-lurk > long enough to ask a question of my own. I make T-tunics to wear in the SCA. > However, I haven't figured out two things about them: > > 1. How do I keep them from riding back and having the front of the neck > strangle me? Don't put the neck-hole in the exact "center" (i.e., evenly on the front and back of the shoulder seam/fold), place it entirely on the "front" part of the tunic with the very back edge of the neck hole in line with the shoulder seam/fold. This technique is seen in a number of extant medieval/Iron Age tunics (e.g., the Viborg shirt, the "St. Louis" tunic, the Skjoldehamn kirtle, etc.). > 2. Is there an easy way to make a neck? (no collar, just facing) A _very_ easy and authentic way of finishing a neck (or similar) edge is shown on p.159 of the Museum of London "Textiles and Clothing" book. Take a thin strip of fabric (ca. 1 cm to 1 inch wide), best if it's a lighter weight than the main fabric. Sew it to the neck edge, right sides together. Turn it to the inside and turn the raw edge under. Topstitch the turned-under edge. (The originals have a second line of topstitching next to the edge.) There is no clue in the originals how to deal with the join of the facing, but there are several simple and obvious solutions. Heather Rose Jones (motto: it is just as easy to make an _authentic_ t-tunic as to make an inauthentic one!) ----------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 19:27:46 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Early Siberian Costume On Mon, 13 Feb 1995, Sarah Randles wrote: > Just something that caught my eye in Saturday's paper (Sydney Morning > Herald, 11 February, 1995), that I thought might be of interest to readers > of this list. > > The article "Siberia's Ice Maiden Returns from her Ancient Pastures of > Heaven" by Helen Womack, refers to the discovery of the preserved corpse of There was also a National Geographic article on this find in the last year, but I don't recall it going into the clothing in great detail. Heather Rose Jones ----------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 21:42:05 -0600 (CST) From: Melanie Jo Schuessler Subject: Swedish Manor Houses Hello to all. A friend of a friend is doing a play this summer which is set in Sweden in the 1880s. We are looking for information on costume for inhabitants of Swedish Manor Houses of the period (both genteel and servants) and also "people of the countryside." (I hesitate to call them peasants--is that PC nowadays??) Any information or references to sources dealing with this in particular would be appreciated. We are wondering whether rich Swedes in the 1880s would have been willing or able to keep up with Paris fashions and especially whether a young lady (in her late teens) would have worn a corset and bustle or not. Thank you in advance! Cheers Melanie Schuessler mjs@owlnet.rice.edu ----------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 14:49:30 +1100 From: S.Randles@UTS.Edu.Au (Sarah Randles) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 224, 2/13/95 >I am interested in making a 15th Century German dress as illustrated in >A History of Costume by Kohler on page 193. > >It is constructed with a strip cut out of the front up to below the >breast then replaced by a wider, pleated strip so that the gown is very >wide at the bottom. I haven't seen this type of dress in any of my >other sources. In response to this and other postings on this type of dress - yes they are definately authentic. Not only Durer, as Dawn mentioned, but also a great many German woodcuts from the fifteenth and early sixteenth centuries depict these styles of dresses. There is a formidable set of books on German Woodcuts from the fifteenth, sixteenth and seventeenth centuries; I can post the reference when the university library is open at times that make it accessible for those of us with 9-5 jobs. (Frustration!) This dress feature also appears in fifteenth century Italy, with some variations. The pleated panel is much wider going almost all the way across the front of the dress, and starts under the bust. I made one of these dresses about five years ago, and based it (if I remember correctly) on one of the ladies in the fresco which shows lovers, and ladies doing embroidery around a fountain (sorry to be so unspecific, I can check this later.) also interpreted this as having a similar back panel, but I can't remember if this was based on pictorial or other evidence, or simply my inexperience - I will have to go and look. Making this dress was a very frustrating experience - I have since taken it apart and put it back together, but I'm still not happy with it. I cut the chunks out of the front and back panels and cartridge pleated larger panels into the space. The biggest problem was the side edges and trying to fit the curved side of a cartridge pleat onto a flat side bit. I eventually solved the problem of keeping the pleats together by sewing ribbon to the backs of them (a technique demonstrated on a man's tunic in Jaqueline Birbari's Dress in Italian Painting). The pleats also had a tendency to droop at the top, showing little bits of chemise, and when I sewed them more firmly, they flattened out to look like box pleats. Someone has suggested using the iron on padding in the top of the pleats to rectify this, but I am relucted to re re-make a five year old dress! I think the pregnancy thing is a bit of a furphy. I have seen this type of dress on women who look no more pregnant than their contemporaries in other styles of dress, although it may have started out as a maternity solution before becoming more widely fashionable. Sarah ********************************************************* Sarah Randles S.Randles@uts.edu.au Research Office Telephone: (02)330 1252 University of Technology, Sydney Fax: (02)330 1252 ----------------------- From: DLTR@aol.com Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 23:43:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Madness of King George The film is in the movie theaters now, but I believe it is in limited release. I know it is available in metropolitan areas. I live in the NY/NJ area and saw it a a local multiplex theater. I was surprised to find it so close to home in the 'burbs because it isn't even easy to locate in NYC. It is certainly worth the hunt though. Diana LIfee is a banquet! ----------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 21:03:15 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 224, 2/13/95 On Tue, 14 Feb 1995, Sarah Randles wrote: > In response to this and other postings on this type of dress - yes they are > definately authentic. Not only Durer, as Dawn mentioned, but also a great > many German woodcuts from the fifteenth and early sixteenth centuries depict > these styles of dresses. There is a formidable set of books on German ... > This dress feature also appears in fifteenth century Italy, with some > variations. The pleated panel is much wider going almost all the way across > the front of the dress, and starts under the bust. I made one of these We'd have to compare painting citations to make sure we're talking about the same effect, but ... are we discussing the type of gown (or man's tabard of the same period) that has sculpturally perfect round folds falling from around chest level throughout the length of the garment? If so, I have made a different interpretation. Comparing with representations that aren't quite so perfect and stylized -- but still appear to be the same style -- and with slightly earlier styles, I interpret this as the natural folds of a widely-flaring garment, represented in art as being much more regular (and perhaps fuller) than the original may have been. If you look at a painting like Fiorenzo di Lorenzo's "The Miracle of St. Bernardino" (1473) you see tabards in the same style with drapes of varying "naturalness". Interestingly, the foreground figures have more pronounced and (by my interpretation) stylized folds than the two background figures. What do others think of this possible interpretation? Heather Rose Jones ----------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 21:25:02 -0800 (PST) From: "Sarah E. Goodman" Subject: Re: t-tunics > > 1. How do I keep them from riding back and having the front of the neck > > strangle me? > > Embroidery around the neck, especially if that in front is of greater > volume will help keep the tunic from riding back and add to the overall > decorative effect. I've also found that adding a weight (usually either a couple of pennies or lead curtain-weight on the inside of the front (at the bottom of the slit or placket) helps a great deal. I don't know if this is period, as I picked it up from a friend who used weight on togas (which WAS authentic) but have no documentation that it survived the Roman Empire. I also find that making sure the neck-hole actually fits the wearer helps a whole lot. I have a "Sarah's Neck" pattern out of heavy brown paper, that I developed by tracing the neckline of a commercial pattern onto muslin, then playing around with it until I got it right. My neck is fairly far forward, so a "normal" shaped neckline tends to cut across the wind-pipe (and a round hole totally does me in). As we say on the WELL "your milage may vary"--make one that fits you (or whoever is going to be wearing the tunic, of course) If pulling backwards is a significant problem for you (as it is for someone with my posture) you may want to, when using really heavy fabrics, consider either shaping the shoulder seams, or adding a gusset or shaped yoke; except for the gusset I don't believe there is any historical validity to any of these, but strangulation is no fun! ****************************************************** Sarah E. Goodman goodston@well.sf.ca.us Senior Designer and Chief Cat Herder goodston@netcom.com Wee Cottage Daly City, California, USA ****************************************************** ----------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 00:47:48 -0500 (EST) From: "K.C. Kozminski" Subject: Re: 15th Century Shirts Hi, You may want to consult the book "Lives of the Courtesans" by Lynne Lawner, published by Rizzoli. The nature of the subject matter is such that you get a great collection of Renaissance portraits of men and women in various stages of undress, which is invaluable research material! Good luck! KC Don't think of it as aging, think of it as "Attaining Mythic Stature" kc/Roen who is, herself ----------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 22:33:54 -0800 From: Alison Kondo Subject: Siberian Lady There was also a documentary film made of the excavations which showed all the clothing parts in detail in the lab, after they were removed from the body. Alison (Amazing find, wasn't it!) ----------------------- From: NeenH@aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 02:23:49 -0500 Subject: Re: pregnancies - 18th century Having just spent an active summer doing 18th century reenactments while pregnant, I have lots of practical experience! My skirts are all on two waistbands, front and back, that tie, (back in front, front in back) and overlap at the side seams. I just let them ride up, and tied them. My easy bodice was a bed gown, with a drawstring around the waist, so I just tied it with a gat in front, and used a bib apron, pined above the bulge! My more fitted bodice also worked the same way, I didn't pin the waist, just covered up the gap with the apron. I don't do this from research, there are few paintings, et all of pregnancy, it's just that the clothes I was already wearing kept fitting, since I was wearing an apron anyway! What DID NOT work, was long skirts, a 2 year old, and a 4 year old needing to go potty in the port-a-johns, while pregnant, with swollen feet, trying to drink enough to get them to unswell...with all those trips to those awful port-a-johns! Now I need to behave inauthentically in camp, I need to nurse discreetly enough for modern people, in clothes designed by those who didn't have to be discreet! (I assume anyone "high" enough to need discretion hired a wet nurse, who was conveniently a peasant who didn't need to be discreet); NeenH ----------------------- From: NeenH@aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 03:18:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Cloaks kinsale and circle Someone was recommending the Kinsale Cloak pattern, but couldn't remember the company. It is from Folkwear Patterns. I can get them (special order, but they have the catalog) at my local fabric store, as well as through the reinactor mail order companies. It is, indeed, a nice pattern, a friend made one, out of red wool, for herself in collage. She doesn't like it (I can't remember why, I love it, it must be that she dislikes the hood, which she did not make from the kinsale pattern) and gave it to me while I was pregnant. It is authentic enough that I have started wearing it to camp, until I make a new one, but got so many compliments from our unit's costume experts, that I won't bother replacing it! Circle cloaks were pieced. In the book Tidings from the 18th. Century, she shows how to do it very nicely. I recommend boiling the wool in a big lobster pot to full it first. I did this for my kids' cloaks. They are nice and thick! (but I am having trouble getting the boiling wrinkles out, warmth for toddlers in camp is more important, and boy, are the little red mounds on feet cute!) NeenH ----------------------- From: stella.nemeth@solar.org (Stella Nemeth) Subject: Glass Paste Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 17:22:00 GMT G>Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 14:02:38 -0500 G>Subject: Fwd: Paste glass jewelry G>--------------------- G>Forwarded message: G>>From: IACAGC@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU (Anita Cohen-Williams) G>>Sender: ARCH-L@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU (Archaeology List) G>Anita Cohen-Williams; Reference Services; Hayden Library G>Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ 85287-1006 G>PHONE: (602) 965-4579 FAX: (602) 965-9169 G>INTERNET: IACAGC@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU Owner: HISTARCH G>*** Forwarding note from IACAGC --ASUACAD 01/30/95 00:18 *** G> Can anyone direct me to some good sources on paste glass jewelry? G>We have an artifact labeled (not by us) as pasta vitrious which we G>have translated as paste glass. I am interested in the history of this G>type of jewelry. (I'll bet it goes back to Roman times!) G>Anita Cohen-Williams; Reference Services; Hayden Library G>Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ 85287-1006 G>PHONE: (602) 965-4579 FAX: (602) 965-9169 G>INTERNET: IACAGC@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU Owner: HISTARCH It is older than Roman. The Egyptians did a lot of it. I can't send you to a source, but the Metropolitan Museum in New York City probably has quite a bit of it, and they might be able to help you locate information. I'd be surprised if they don't have at least one book or catalog from their own exhibits in the past. The jewelry I am thinking of is 12th Dynasty, which is quite a bit older than anything Roman. --- * CMPQwk 1.4 #1455 * All true wisdom is found in taglines. ----------------------- From: cpecourt@mhv.net Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 09:59:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Cloaks and shoulders Hello, tis me again Someone mentioned that one should have the shoulders "cut in" is the term I believed they used, so that the cloak does not ride back and choak. This choaking problem is one that I have with the circle cloak I made from the directions in the "Known World Handbook". What types of patterns give the best fitting cloaks? Ideally I would like a patern that 1. uses the fabric efficiently 2. Hang nicely 3. goes all the way around and 4 would be appropriate for SCA events. Again, thanks so much for your help Chantal ----------------------- End of Volume 229 -----------------------