From: Gretchen Miller Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 19:03:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 231, 2/21/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 231, February 21, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Cloak closures Making mockups History of shaving Laces and aiglets Glass paste jewelry 18th C doll stays 16th century shirt pattern ISO: Info on how thread was stored/sold prior to 1600 Cloak construction T-tunic details ISO: Info on lining cothardie skirts ISO: Info on 1890's men's dressing gown Source of Kinsale cape pattern Rainments info 15th C men's shirts Drawings of Lucas Cranach Siberian Ice maiden Victoria magazine article "Jefferson in Paris" ---------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 09:19:33 PST From: susanf@EERC.Berkeley.Edu (Susan Fatemi) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 226, 2/14/95 Re: cloak closures. I made a cape w/ hood from a commercial pattern many years ago (I think it was a Vogue) I was pregnant and nothing else seemed big enough or warm enough (the "baby" will be 19 in April). I used real Donegal tweed, brown and white, and lined it with coat lining material, probably acetate (not sure). anyway, it did have shoulders, and I put a hook at the throat, and put three or four sets of brown toggle frogs (from Paris, yet) down the front. the original pattern did not have a lining, but I lined the whole thing and made lining pockets on the inside. I still have it, but haven't worn it in years, mostly because the openings for the arms are in the front side seams and make it impossible to use a shoulder bag, etc. My son wore it to an SCA event once. It sits comforatably on the shoulders and doesn't choke me. re: "mock-ups". I make toiles out of old sheets (100% cotton of course) or all cotton, firm muslin. When I've got it right, I transfer the markings to a paper pattern (I've been using tissue paper, but it isn't the best) However, one could fuse that fusible stuff (I haven't used it yet) or lightwt interfacing to the back of the muslin (to keep it from stretching, ravelling, etc.) OR even to the back of the tissue pattern. I learn so much from this list! Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ---------------------- From: LissThor@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 12:31:19 -0500 Subject: Shaving Hi, I'm new here (and loving this list). Anyway, as a former classicist I can push the discussion of shaving back a bit. In Rome, especially during the empire shave was a common practice, for both men and women. They used razors and pumice (yipes). Very often this is mentioned in satiric poems and some love poetry and was partially to maintain the appearance of youth. Probably the practice was kept up in various areas, surviving into the middle ages. If you take a look at portrature from different periods you can see how body hair patterns change - plucking hairlines, beards/no beards, eyebrows/no eyebrows. Just another weird thing humans do to themselves! :) ---------------------- From: TheaG@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 16:24:11 -0500 To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: laces To add to the discussion of laces - I have learned to make fingerloop braids following the instructions given in the Textiles phamplet of the Medieval Finds in London series. These are quick and easy to make and evidently span a lot of time and cultures. The Textiles phamplet mentions that F-L braids have been found in Sweden and Piecework magazine (Jan/Feb 1995) has an article that relates them to ancient Japan. This is a great article for anyone interested in these types of braids. The Japanese technique described is a little different and allows for some interesting variations of shape and color/pattern. There is also a charming picture of a copy of a 16th century scroll showing a Japanese woman making fingerloop braids in just the way the Textiles phamplet describes. She is using a clever device to help work the tension down to the other end. (Thanks to Jennifer Carlson for directing me to this article.) The instructions given in the Textiles phamplet are for a 5-loop braid. Once I was comfortable with that, I started playing around and have made braids from 4- through 7-loops with one and many colors. I have in mind how to make a 10-loop braid with two people but haven't been able to pin down a sucker... er, friend to help. On the subject of aiglettes, does anyone have documentation for beads being us ed as aiglettes or decorative ends for laces in the 16th century? Thea ---------------------- From: stella.nemeth@solar.org (Stella Nemeth) Subject: Glass Paste Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 03:49:00 GMT I know I was lazy when I posted about the Egyptian glass paste work yesterday, so I'm making up for it. The most accessible pieces of glass paste inlay that I'm aware of are from the tomb of Tutankhamun. I have THE COMPLETE TUTANKHAMUN by Nicholas Reeves at home, so the references will all be to that book. Pg 107 The second coffin: "The uraeus on the forehead was of gilded wood, with a head of blue faience and inlays of red, blue and turquoise glass...A broad 'falcon collar' picked out with inset pieces of brilliant red, blue and turquoise glass showed at the king's throat with two similarly inlaid bracelets modelled at the wrists." In fact, almost all of the inlay in all three coffins are made out of glass. There is a bed where the "blotches of cow-hide are represented by trefoils of opaque blue glass" (pg 147). The Nekhbet collar is made up of 250 glass inlaid sections (pg 152). In fact almost anything multi- colored including the chariot had glass inlay. --- * CMPQwk 1.4 #1455 * I'm leading the revolution. Where is it? ---------------------- From: "Cindy Abel" Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 15:25:29 CDT Subject: mail and stays question I've no mail from here today or about all my listserves, so I don't know if something is wrong or everyone had a really nice Valentine's night. I will be constructing an 18th century pair of stays for a doll in two or three months and will be sewing the whole thing by hand. I've seen some tiny black and white photos of actual 18th c doll stays but has anyone seen the real thing up close and personal? The doll stays seem to be adult ones in minature. I have some authentic patterns I can adjust, and thanks to the experts on this list, know I have to do hand-worked eyelets instead of pounding in modern metal ones. Any suggestions on boning since I don't want to add bulk to this 24" tall lady doll? She will have a cloth body, but the stays won't "pull her in in certain areas as they will a person and the doll show judges insist on firmly stuffed bodies(the dolls, not ours). Any help is appreciated. Cindy Abel Health Sciences Library Creighton University 2500 California Plaza Omaha NE 68178-0400 402-280-5144 ---------------------- From: AlisounF@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 17:42:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Shaving This is more question than answer: Is there any significant correlation between the dates of short skirts, safety razors, sheer silk stockings and shaved legs? Most of the pre-1920's references seem to be about facial and other hair. Pat LaPointe who has more questions than answers on this subject ---------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 17:48:16 -0500 (EST) From: Gretchen Miller Subject: Re: 15th Century Shirts Excerpts from internet.other.h-costume: 13-Feb-95 Re: 15th Century Shirts by Cynthia L. Rosser@jove.a > In "The History of Underclothes" C. Willel and Phillis Cunnington, Dover > Publications, 1992 (ISBN 0-486-27124-2 $9.95) has a picture of a 15th C. > undershirt/chemise. It is not very clear for pattern making purposes, but > it might help you. Janet Arnold also published an article in Costume describing several shirts/chemises dated approximately 1595 - 1610. One of the shirts is constructed like this: The body of the shirt is one long piece of fabric folded over--not in the middle, but in the manner of polo shirts--the back is several inches longer than the front. The sides are joined to just past the waist. A T shaped cut is made in the top-front-middle of the shirt (shoulder-to-shoulder and the front opening) leaving enough fabric uncut at either end to accomodate the distance between the point of the shoulders and the neck. A small gusset is sewn into the neck opening at either branch of the shoulder cut and the neck opening is gathered into a 2 inch band folder in half. The front opening is turned and hemmed. I believe the article indicated laces sewn in to the collar. The sleeves are rectangular pieces of cloth, with a square underarm gusset. The cuffs are again folded bands with the sleeve gathered in. I've use the neck construction when making leines; it tends to ride back a little bit but is quite comfortable. toodles, gretchen ---------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 17:49:10 -0500 (EST) From: Gretchen Miller Subject: Re: 15th Century Shirts Oops, one of these days I'll learn to tell the difference between 15th century and 1500s....... toodles, gretchen ---------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 17:52:21 -0500 (EST) From: Gretchen Miller Subject: How is thread sold/stored prior to the 17th C? Why I'm looking for this information is a long story, but I'm trying to find out if thread was stored on wooden spools in the 16th century and before. If not, how was it wrapped/stored/sold? Pointers to pictures and references are particularly appreciated! Thanks! toodles, gretchen ---------------------- Date: 14 Feb 95 03:50:00 EST From: "Gina Balestracci" Subject: cloaks & capes This morning I was zipping through my e-mail, and I remember *someone* on this list saying that they had a "fur"-lined cape, unfortunately I deleted the message and don't remember who it was. I know this is a bit off-topic since it isn't historic. Apologies in advance :-) I've got some wool and some fake fur with which to make a cloak. I want the cloak to be lined and I want to bind the edges (there was a kid's version of this cloak on the cover of Creative Needle about a year ago, but I want to make an adult version of it. The adult version will have a lot more mass than the kid's version, and I don't think the hanging would be such a problem in the smaller version). My question is this: If I make up the cape and let the inner and outer shells hang for several days (or weeks) will the "fur" stretch enough so that it won't continue stretching once the edges are bound? Or should I join the two fabrics by catching the wrong sides together by hand throughout the garment? The wool is that insanely heavy melton coating that you can always find on remnant tables in the Northeast. My other experience with fake fur is in a rather Tudor-looking coat that I have (not historic--just your basic winter coat), but the lining isn't attached at the bottom. After I started wearing the coat the fur facing in the lapel/collar areas drooped, however, and I ended up having to tack it throughout that area. Clearly I don't work with fake fur very often. Thanks for any advice, gina balestracci@saturn.montclair.edu ps--re the Du:rer thread, There's a Dover edition of _The Complete Woodcuts of Albrecht Du:rer_ edited by Dr. Willi Kurth, ISBN 0-486-21097-9. The clothing in his paintings & woodcuts have always been some of my favorites! ---------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 17:00:06 PST From: susanf@EERC.Berkeley.Edu (Susan Fatemi) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 228, 2/15/95 Neck riding-up problem. I have had this problem with a couple of pruchased blouses over the years, and could never figure out why. Then I read somewhere, quite possibly in Threads, that it was because the back neck opening was too shallow in relation to the front and/or the shoulder seams were too far back. When the same thing happened with a home-made blouse with a tricky neckline, I knew what the problem was. Please consider this in addition to all the excellent advice on making t-tunics. ( i once made an instant tabard for my son by just slashing a horizontal neck opening in a length of really neat grey cordouroy. It had a subtle "quilt" pattern sort of shadow printed on it. Not authentic of course, but he needed a garment soonest!) Leg-shaving, etc. I agree it was probably in the 20's when women wore short skirts with sheer stockings. Also knee-length bathing suits! No doubt films and fashion mags were a big influence too! Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ---------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 19:52:47 -0400 (EST) From: andrea ruth leed Subject: skirt linings for cotehardies I've been looking at a lot of illumanations recently, and have been noticing that a good number of cotehardies seem to be lined with a contrasting fabric--when the inside is shown at all, that is. I was wondering how it would be accomplished. One could go the fiendishly difficult route and flat-line the entire thing, in effect making two dresses sewn together at the hem and neckline; or each section could have a corresponding lining, and the two sewn like one piece. But I haven;'t seen any raw seams showing on the lining. If the lining is flat-lined, how would one accomodate the inevitable uneven droop and sag of circle skirts? Idly curious (and hoping this question doesn't explode like the button one did) drea ============================= aleed@ezmail.ucs.indiana.edu ---------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 21:53:24 -0500 (EST) From: Michael J Sherman Subject: Re: new 19th century sources/conference I am looking for a pattern or a replica of a 1890's man's dressing gown. These usually had very wide and long lapels of velvet or such, with the gown of silk. Any information on where I could find one would be fantastic! Michael Sherman mset@andrew.cmu.edu ---------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 20:23:43 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: skirt linings for cotehardies On Wed, 15 Feb 1995, andrea ruth leed wrote: > I've been looking at a lot of illumanations recently, and have been > noticing that a good number of cotehardies seem to be lined with a > contrasting fabric--when the inside is shown at all, that is. I was > wondering how it would be accomplished. One could go the fiendishly > difficult route and flat-line the entire thing, in effect making two > dresses sewn together at the hem and neckline; or each section could > have a corresponding lining, and the two sewn like one piece. But I > haven;'t seen any raw seams showing on the lining. > If the lining is flat-lined, how would one accomodate the > inevitable uneven droop and sag of circle skirts? >From the constructions I've seen, the droop and sag of circle skirts isn't a problem with cotehardies because they don't have them. I.e., since the skirts are cut in multiple sections and gores, each with at least one straight-grain edge, the sag is greatly minimized. If you look at existing garments from this period (e.g., the Greenland dresses), you see that they cleverly matched any bias edge with a straight-grain edge. Voila -- self-stabilization! Heather Rose Jones ---------------------- Date: 16 Feb 95 01:49:45 EST From: Gary Anderson <72437.674@compuserve.com> Subject: Cloaks On Fri, 10 Feb 1995 16:17:03 -0600 (CST) Deb wrote: >Anyway, my really comfortable cloak is made from a "Kinsale Cloak" >pattern bought through AmazonWorks, though I don't recall who makes the >pattern. The pattern is Folkwear #207, and we (Raiments) carry it. Along with gorilla-rated cloak clasps. A very popular pattern. Gary for Raiments ---------------------- Date: 16 Feb 95 01:49:50 EST From: Gary Anderson <72437.674@compuserve.com> Subject: Your kind inquiry On 11 Feb 1995 10:07:58 -0800 (PST) samhainsghost wrote: >How do we get a Raiments catalog, oh tame ook? You send $5.00 (in the US)($9.50 Europe or Australia or Asia, $6.00 Canada/Mexico) to Raiments, PO Box 93095, Pasadena, CA, 91109, and if the Snail Mail is behaving at all, you will receive in a couple of weeks or so, the catalog. Which is now up to 160 pages, perfect bound, 1220 patterns, 650+ books, lotsa supplies, and heavy. Which is why the out of US rate is so high. But we have to illustrate it, or folks wouldn't know what it was they were trying to buy. Gary for Raiments ---------------------- Date: 16 Feb 95 03:46:02 EST From: Gary Anderson <72437.674@compuserve.com> Subject: Men's Shirts Regarding the request for shirts: Some sources for illustrations of Men's 15 c. shirts: The Book of Costume, Davenport -plates 752-754, Italian shirts The Pictorial Encyclopedia of Fashion, Kybalova, Herbenova, and Lamarova, translated by Rosoux, plate 168, Woodcut, Upper Rhine school, two lovers engaging on a bench - he is down to his shirt, she to her shift (!) Also 208-212, Durer engravings of peasants and country folk. By the way, if you ever see the latter book, GRAB IT! It's full of original portraiture, sculpture and other original sources, including many from Eastern European sources seldom seen. Published in the US by Crown Publishers, 1972, in the UK by Hamlyn Publishing group 1966. Originally printed in Czechoslovakia. 606 pages with a forward by James Laver. One of my all-time favorites! JanetWA (My Lady Janet, her sign) Gary for Raiments ---------------------- Date: 16 Feb 95 03:45:50 EST From: Gary Anderson <72437.674@compuserve.com> Subject: Cranach + pattern Regarding the portraiture of German costume - the works of Lucas Cranach the Elder have a very rich and generally well-proportioned detail of the period. I wish Raiments could carry "The Paintings of Lucas Cranach" by Max Friedlander and Jakob Rosenberg, Wellfleet Press, 1978, ISBN#1-55521-475-4, but it is out of print and available only in remainder/used. Cranach was a contemporary of Durer. He painted from 1501 through 1553. If you have a chance, grab this book. It has over 500 plates. My long-legged Lady Janet can walk off the page from most of his works. Although I would probably grumble if she tried to do some of the more ... revealing stuff. If you are long-legged and not too big up top, these are made for you. And if you like lotsa beads, you can have your choice of some really compulsive gowns. For Susan Fatemi: we carry a pattern for the Mary Tudor collar. Just got it in for the new catalog. Gary for Raiments ---------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 08:02:40 -0500 From: Ann.J.Welborne.2@nd.edu (Anna Welborne) Subject: Early Siberian Costume >The article "Siberia's Ice Maiden Returns from her Ancient Pastures of >Heaven" by Helen Womack, refers to the discovery of the preserved corpse >of a woman believed to be about 2400 years old. The body was discovered >in 1993 in the Altai mountains near the Chinese mountains, by an >excavation led by Ms Natalya Polosmak of the Siberian branch of the >Russian Academy of Sciences I think this is the same one, but there was an **incredible** story about it all in a recent National Geographic. I'm thinking it was the middle of this fall. Typical NG with wonderful pictures and excellent text. Anna ******************************************************************** ***** Anna Welborne Press on, mi amigo! Press on, mon amie! welborne.2@nd.edu Walk on in the face of the mystery. Notre Dame University When the night hides the light, Philosophy Department And the journey is long, Notre Dame, IN 46556 Tie your shoes, my dear friend. Walk on. *************It's worse than that. He's a basenji, Jim. **************** ---------------------- From: VICKI@lib.uttyl.edu Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 8:23:26 -0600 (CST) Subject: Jefferson in Paris Is anyone out there interested in very late 18th century clothing? You might want to check out the latest (March 1995) issue of Victoria magazine, pp. 115- 117. Claire Whitcomb has an article on John Bright and Jenny Beavan who did the costuming for "Jefferson in Paris"--they also did "Room With a View." "J in P" is Merchant Ivory's newest film. It has 83 speaking parts and they had to create over 400 costumes. The article also describes Cosprop, their costume company which includes 55,000 items. The article's photographs include two stills from the movie and several details of clothing--very interesting. Vicki Betts University of Texas at Tyler vicki@lib.uttyl.edu ----------------------- End of Volume 231 -----------------------