From: Gretchen Miller Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 18:39:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 237, 2/27/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 237, February 27, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Maternity styles List purpose/Apology ISO: Recommendations for special events in London in March Niello Sewing machine woes Help dating pictures in Pictorial Encyclopedia of Fashion Wearing the great kilt Swedish fashions circa 1880 "Organ Pleating" (was15th C German costuming) Body shapes, underwear and attitudes Menstruation and other women's products ISO: Info on 18th C dress closures ----------------------- From: ehp648c@crusher.dukepower.com Subject: Re: Some Misc Thoughts Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 08:03:16 -0500 (EST) > Following on from the Antionia Fraser quote (I find her reliable, and > detailed as a writer, although she is rather 'literary' rather than > practical, I find), it might be interesting to look at why fashions are > sometimes very obviously related to pregnancy (15th century) and sometimes > intolerant of pregancy (late 16th century English) when the numbers of > women pregnant presumably didn't vary much? > This is no doubt an oversimplification, but surely the Virgin Queen's court would be unlikely to glorify, or even to acknowledge, pregnancy? By contrast, many styles in Marie Antoinette's era copied her pregnancy fashions -- the whole Court minced around as if twelve months pregnant. There were also wonderful colors (!) like "Dauphin dung". Betsy Perry betsyp@vnet.net ----------------------- Subject: Re: Some Misc Thoughts, and London Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 09:18:37 -0500 From: Elizabeth Lear I'm more than happy to discuss technical aspects of corset making and fitting - after all, the advice I got here last fall helped me achieve the best fitting bodice I've ever made. However, any other discussion relating to things like the purpose of the organization and their practices is best kept to private mail because it violates the charter of this group. I remember well being chastised for talking about the SCA in that fashion. To bring this message back to costume, here's a question: I'm off to London soon. What shouldn't I miss as far as exhibits and collections? I've saved a few notes from previous discussions, but I'd love any information about special programs or favorite places. I'll be there from March 17-27. Thanks! ...eliz ----------------------- Date: Wed 22 Feb 1995 08:54 CT From: UDSD007@DSIBM.OKLADOT.STATE.OK.US (Mike.Andrews ) Subject: Niello (was Re: Nielo) Sarah Goodman () wrote about "nielo": > It's a decorative jewelery technique. Don't know how it's done but it looks > like the object is dipped in gold and the designs scratched away to the > underlying material (usually iron, I think). You see it now mostly in > Spanish "folky" jewelery and on fancy sword/knife hilts. Ummmm, well, you're right about it being a decorative technique used in jewelery. It is discussed in detail in various texts on jewelery, and I'd provide references if my office weren't still in boxes due to carpet installation. Niello actually can mean two things: (1) the technique of filling incised lines with a particular dark material, and (2) the filling itself, which is a mixture of various substances, including silver oxide and/or silver sulphide. The technique has been used on gold-colored and silver-colored objects, and is very effective. -- Mike Andrews Mgr., Tech. Support, Okla. Dept. of Transportation udsd007@ibm.okladot.state.ok.us ----------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 10:32:34 -0600 (CST) From: Gwyndlyn J Ferguson Subject: Re: Stupid sewing machine!!! On Tue, 21 Feb 1995, Gail DeCamp wrote: > > The problem: when I try to sew the seam, the underside of the seam comes out as > a raveled mess of thread loops. Yech. Usually, that means the tension is too > loose...but I've played with the tension dial to no avail. > Any suggestions? > > Gail DeCamp Gail, This occasionally happens to me because I have a cranky old machine, but check to make sure that your bobbin thread is still under the tension "thingy" on the bobbin case. I mean the part that you "snap" the thread into when threading the bobbin case. For some unknown reason mine comes loose and I get the same kind of mess that you are describing. Good luck! gf *Gwyn Ferguson***Western Illinois University *SCA: Lady Gwyndlyn Caer Vyrddin***Lochmorrow-Midrealm *Internet: mugjf@bgu.edu ----------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 18:54:22 -0800 (PST) From: lizbeth langston Subject: Need help with poorly dated picture in costume book Hello, everyone-- This question is aimed at experts in early 20th c. dress. I'm trying to date two pictures in the Pictorial Encyclopedia of Fashion (ed. Ludmila Kybalova, London:Hamlyn, 1968). In the Turn of the Century Chapter, on page 304, illustrations 484 and 485 are undated. The captions read " 'H Buschmanns new costume for women' The afternoon dresses loosely outline the bodily curves." and " 'H. Buschmanns new costume for women' Howse and working clothes are in one piece." My guess is around 1913, but I'd like a bit more precision. Can anyone date these pictures & give the original source? Does anyone have any information on H. Buschmann? Any references to books or articles about Buschmann? Thanks very much Lizbeth Langston langston@galaxy.ucr.edu ----------------------- Date: 22 Feb 95 03:14:01 EST From: Gary Anderson <72437.674@compuserve.com> Subject: Gretchen Miller On 15 February, CGodfrey wrote: >Hi. Can anyone provide me with detailed, and illustrated, step-by-step >instructions for the wearing of a great kilt (pheligh mor) ? > >I also need to know how much fabric(width of and length) necessary to make >one?>> There is a very detailed, and illustrated article in Volume I of Randwulf's Ramblings. It shows how to do it, and gives material requirements, etc. This was also reprinted in the Costumer's Quarterly (I don't have the issue to hand) of the International Costumer's Guild. I am emailing you the source from which you can get this book. Heh, heh! Gary, the Ook of Raiments Books, supplies, and patterns for historical costumes catalog&mail order: PO Box 93095, Pasadena, CA 91109 - 818-797-2723 ----------------------- Date: 22 Feb 95 03:14:20 EST From: Gary Anderson <72437.674@compuserve.com> Subject: Gretchen Miller On Mon, 13 Feb 1995 Melanie Jo Schuessler wrote: >We are looking for information on costume for inhabitants >of Swedish Manor Houses of the period (both genteel and servants) and >also "people of the countryside." To Melanie Jo Schuessler From Janet Wilson Anderson > We are wondering whether rich Swedes in the 1880's would have been willing or able to keep up with Paris fashions. Haven't yet been able to confirm *Swedish* 1880's fashion, but *Danish* fashion of the era is extremely well documented and very clearly influenced by Paris and other European fashion, from the skin out. I would hypothesize, given the commerce among the Scandinavian countries that this would be true for Sweden as well. The Danish documentation is from the National Museum, which has published three WONDERFUL books cataloging their collection: Moden1790-1840, Moden 1840-1890 and just this past year Moden 1890-1920. In Danish with English captions, full of photos of original garments for both men and women. And - a la Janet Arnold - graphed diagrams of the garments! These books have garments from the middle as well as upper class, and include accessories. The source/current location of each garment is also included. Not cheap, but exceptionally good source material. JanetWA Gary the Ook for Raiments books, supplies, and patterns for historical costume catalog&mailorder PO Box 93095 Pasadena CA 91109 818-797-2723 ----------------------- Date: 22 Feb 95 03:14:25 EST From: Gary Anderson <72437.674@compuserve.com> Subject: Gretchen Miller To Heather Rose Jones >From Janet Wilson Anderson > I interpret this as the natural folds of a widely-flaring > garment. So did I, until last year's Costume College, where they taught a course on a technique called "Organ Pipe Pleating". I didn't get to take the course (luckily it's being offered again this year), but my associate, who did, said it produces just the deep folds so often seen in German and Italian Renaissance portraits. I'll check back in after the class and let you know more, if someone else doesn't pop up here with more info. (I have a Cranach in my future plans, so Will Take This Course this year!) JanetWA ----------------------- From: "Lassman, Linda" Subject: Stupid sewing machine!!! Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 08:41:00 PST The times my sewing machine has done that--which is (annoyingly!) all too often, I've found completely rethreading it (as opposed to just starting over from the tension disks) does the trick. When I do, I'm very careful to watch that the thread doesn't accidentally get snagged on a miniscule irregularity or that it doesn't go through the secondary tension disk (for when you do 2- needle sewing). Occasionally I've had to re-thread a couple of times, but it's always worked eventually. - Linda Lassman Winnipeg, Manitoba ----------------------------------------------------- >Greetings, all. > >I have a sewing machine question. I'm trying to make cuffs for a 16th century >man's shirt. I'm sewing one layer of evenweave linen to one layer of >standard, plain ol' linen, with some ribbon ties sandwiched in there. > >The problem: when I try to sew the seam, the underside of the seam comes out >as a raveled mess of thread loops. Yech. Usually, that means the tension is too >loose...but I've played with the tension dial to no avail. > >When I sewed a seam with an extra layer (the frill at the top of the collar) >it came out fine. > >Any suggestions? ----------------------- From: "Lassman, Linda" Subject: Some Misc Thoughts Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 08:55:00 PST Caroline - I agree completely with your comments on the Staylace exchanges. Thanks for putting it so succinctly and politely! - Linda Lassman Winnipeg, Manitoba ----------------------- From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Re: Tightlacing (fwd) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 09:56:43 -0800 (PST) I received this message this morning and I believe it was meant more for the whole list so I'm forwarding it on. I've asked Mr. Lierse to stick to topics covered by the charter when conversing publicly and he has agreed to do so in the future: Forwarded message: > From Staylace@aol.com Wed Feb 22 06:15:18 1995 > From: Staylace@aol.com > Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 09:15:08 -0500 > Message-Id: <950222091507_28914071@aol.com> > To: close > Subject: Re: Tightlacing > > My apologies to those on this list who took offense to my response to Ms. > Norvell's note. I was merely defending my postion and, being new here, > overstepped protocol. I shall restrict such retorts to private e-mail in the > future. > > Kindest regards, > Thomas B. Lierse > L.I. Staylace Association -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch today. :-) ----------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 10:18:13 PST From: "cynthia" Subject: Tightlacing > My apologies to those on this list who took offense to my response to Ms. > Norvell's note. I was merely defending my postion and, being new here, > overstepped protocol. I shall restrict such retorts to private e-mail in the > future. Apology accepted from this corner. May I recommend past postings on corset construction, selection of boning, fabric, and other materials. There have been several rounds of discussion and all are easily available from majordomo on Diane's machine. --cin Cynthia@caere.com ----------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 13:17:53 -0500 (EST) From: Sharron Fina Subject: Re: Gretchen Miller Hello, I have a German personna in the SCA and that type of "pleating" is called cartridge pleating. One of my sewing books has this described in it, as a drapery style (my daughter has the book, and I can't remember which one it is). Basically, you hem the top of the material as if you were making draperies, with about a 4inch interfacing. You would then round the material like so UUUUUUU (this would be an edge view). Where two U's are side-by-side (at the top) is where you would attach to the yoke of the coat, robe, etc. This is done with a tacking stitch, so the rest of the U is free to stick out. If this were done as a skirt (very popular early 1500's), the whole U shape would be handsewn to the waistline of the bodice, allowing the pleats to stand out and away from the body, to give the illusion of more fullness. Anything to make the waistline look smaller. This has got to be the only pleat that WILL make your waist look smaller. The German dress pattern by Medieval Miscellanea Patterns has instructions on how to do this. Hope this helps. Sharron Fina sfina@retina.anatomy.upenn.edu Compuserve 72750,2147 ----------------------- From: Tracy023@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 13:57:50 -0500 Subject: Staylace--or Not On Feb. 22, Caroline wrote:...>STAYLACE >I am beginning to feel forcefully about this, particularly after >the last mailing...[snip] if he had technical interests and >questions, then OK. ...[snip] this >list is supposed to be about the technical side of costume and >reenactment... Thank you, Caroline, for accurately expressing my own feelings on this issue. I joined this list for the professional assistance it provides and have been impressed over the months by the members adherence to those standards. Periodically, I've seen other lists disrupted by individuals who act out their need for attention, usually claiming a political or religious justification. As I fear we all know from experience, there usually are only two routes available to adults who are forced to deal with such situations: 1. Ignore the individual. 2. If the posts become too disruptive, ban him/her from the list. There is a third alternative, but sadly, I've never seen it work: encourage the individual to seek professional help--referrals also are available on-line--and welcome him/her back to the list when they can interact on an adult level. ----------------------- Subject: Re: Some Misc Thoughts Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 14:22:11 -0500 From: Babs Woods Caroline brings up some worthwhile social stuff into the discussion, which I would like to tie in a little more obviously. Caroline mentions toward the beginning of [her most recent] letter the fact that pregnancy styles have changed back and forth over time. At the end of the letter she talks about the seeming backlash of the Staylace poster (male). I suspect that if we look more closely at the politics of a time we're researching clothing in, we'll find a lot of probable clues as to what women were wearing, based in attitudes about the body in general and women in particular. All this to say that we shouldn't necessarily assume that we will learn enough about costuming and everyday wear simply from reading about them as clothing, abstracted from Ways lived at the time. For example, to dip back into the muck about staylaces and corsetry a moment, when women were more solely ornamental and to be controlled more obviously and forcefully such things were more common as required dress. The Flapper Era, for example, was an explosion in women's empowerment and a direct attack was made on the corset as required garment. Even the bra, as stand-alone support garment, has been something of an attack on the corset. Suddenly, the diaphram was open and we could breathe. Once the bra became a seperate item, it too became an object of attack on gender-political grounds when in the 1960s it became a symbol to burn them (I suspect few were actually burned, unlike draft cards, but it did become iconic to discuss them in terms of them being burned as a protest act). Well, good letter, Caroline. So, what can people tell me in more detail about the design and history of the bra? My pet peave has been not being able to find any off the rack, so I'd welcome a discussion on what exists about this. It's interesting to note the resurgence of the corset- form undergarment, amusingly enough, though as a fashion statement. I'm not quite sure what that means. -babs ----------------------- From: NeenH@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 14:39:17 -0500 Subject: Re: women's products Yes, we shouldn't tiptoe around this subject (the word "blood" was only just used!). I know it is not discussed nearly enough. However, having 3 babies in 3 different hospitals, I never saw a belt. They always gave me disposable underwear, and incontinance pads (really big butterfly shaped pads that stick to your legs through the mesh disposable undies) and they piled things ontop of them, either witch hazel soaked pads, or ice packs, or a baby diaper filled with ice... My oldest is 5 years old. This last time, I couldn't wait to get home and get into cloth pads. They worked so much better...no leaking, no sticking to sensitive, sore places, no itching...I was washing diapers, anyway, so we just merged the 2 sorts of laundry. I set up the pail, and my husband just dumped it into the machine, so he didn't mind. I know that midwives often did the first wash after a baby came, and that had the most blood, obviously. I have found that rinsing the things is really pretty easy, if you aren't squeamish. NeenH >I also remenber belts and so should anyone that has had >a baby imediantly after delivery there is one placed >on and left on basically until you can leave the >hospital. (It's easier to checck blood flow than with >stick on pads) ----------------------- From: NeenH@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 14:39:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Stupid sewing machine!!! Check your manual, check that the presser foot is down properly, change your needle, clean the bobbin case, unthread and rethread your machine, oil the machine. Chances are that all of those things need doing anyway (does any of us do them enough? I don't, and I know I should), and will probably solve the problem. I find that a fresh, properly sized and typed needle for each sewing project works wonders in preventing jams and such. ----------------------- From: cpecourt@mhv.net Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 15:30:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: trews & doublet I'd like the source for this as well.. Thanks! Chantal On Tue, 21 Feb 1995, John Stelling wrote: > I'm trying to get the last of my costume changes done for LHC. Does > anyone have a pattern (or source for same) for a leather doublet and > a pair of trews circa 1500's. > > jds > > ============================================================================== = > John Stelling (Computer Scientist) | Anyone can act, > Naval Warfare Assessment Division | But turn out the lights and > Corona, CA | ain't no one gonna see ya > | do it ;-) > ivan@krynn.nwac.sea06.navy.mil | > ============================================================================== = > ----------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 12:40:05 PST From: "cynthia" Subject: Re: Some Misc Thoughts >For example, to dip back into the muck about staylaces >and corsetry a moment, when women were more solely ornamental and >to be controlled more obviously and forcefully such things were >more common as required dress. The Flapper Era, for example, was >an explosion in women's empowerment and a direct attack was made >on the corset as required garment. Even the bra, as stand-alone >support garment, has been something of an attack on the corset. >Suddenly, the diaphram was open and we could breathe. Once the >bra became a seperate item, it too became an object of attack on >gender-political grounds when in the 1960s it became a symbol to >burn them (I suspect few were actually burned, unlike draft cards, >but it did become iconic to discuss them in terms of them being >burned as a protest act). > > Babs, I'm a rabid feminist too; however, I'm gonna draw the line at letting you rewrite history. Most of the attempts to create sensible dress fall on deaf ears of _women_. Let me present for example, the 1848 Women's Convention and shortly followed by the flack about Mrs Amelia Bloomer's costume. The "light exercise corsets" of the 1880s were much more successful. Next, in reference to the "ornamental women" postulate: most women thruout history are not merely ornamental. They worked, whether it's on the farm, kept household accounts, raising children, spun or wove, trained neighbors daughters, worked as midwives, assistants to husbands, or keeping a kitchen garden. Sometimes they went to washdays, threshed hay (or rice, etc), danced at field dances, & conducted hog slaughters. Cooking until very recently has been a labor intensive activity. In the 19th c some VERY few found careers in law, medicine and education. Very few have had the luxury of leisure. I grant you that for the majority of the last 2 millenia, women have been subordinate. As for breathing in a 1860s corset: try an 8 minute Can-can routine in 105'F. It's both possible and fun, even if you're over 30 (yes, I am). Plenty of leather-lunged opera divas might concur, Jenny Lind for example (1870s). Finally, if you still wish a modern example of ridiculous fashion, railed at by sensible people yet still worn because it "looks good", how 'bout the ubiquitous pointed toe shoe. Except for Doc Marten's there just arent any fashionable "sensible" shoes for women, and I suspect it's just as hard for men to find 'em, too. --cin Cynthia@caere.com ----------------------- From: "Cindy Abel" Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 14:51:50 CDT Subject: closures on 18th c gowns I am making a 24" tall lady doll to be dressed as the Gainsborough portrait of the Honourable Mrs. Graham. In the portrait, the bodice appears not to have a center front closure, but all patterns and portraits I've seen of mid-late 18th century gowns have front closures. I want to be authentic to the 18th century, but true to Gainsborough's almost Impressionistic style. The rose pink petticoat is probably quilted, but looks artfully twisted or pleated. Any expert help from this list will help. I own or have local access to Arnold's "Patterns of Fashion," Waugh's "The Cut of Women's Clothes," Hunnisett's "Period Costume for Stage and Screen," Maeder's "An Elegant Art," and last but not least Kyoto Institute of Costume's "Revolution in Fashion 1715-1815" Cindy Abel Creighton University 2500 California Plaza Omaha NE 68179-0400 Cindy Abel Health Sciences Library Creighton University 2500 California Plaza Omaha NE 68178-0400 Phone: 402-280-5144 ----------------------- From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 10:38:03 EST Subject: Re: Tightlacing Sorry you think my opinion is sophomoric and fascist political correctness. I think yours is sexist and exploitative, so I guess we're even. Seriously, I feel that your posting would be more appropriate on another list, not necessarily one where people are hoping to have serious discussions about costuming and clothing. I have never been politically correct, I just find the whole idea of what you're promoting offensive unless of course, you yourself are willing to dress in a Victorian corset and show yourself off for me. I do not find all men villains, just you, sir. I love men very much, I just don't want them to exploit women, which I feel is what you are doing. Kathleen Norvell > Take your sophomoric and fascist "political correctness" >elsewhere. It is fast growing out of style. > >Kindest Regards, Thomas B. Lierse >Long Island Staylace Association ----------------------- End of Volume 237 -----------------------