From: Gretchen Miller Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 12:44:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 239, 2/28/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 239, February 28, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Cartridge pleats ISO: Info on making/fitting a corset History of neckties How to access the h-costume archives Question: Fulling wool in the 19th C Underwear and the fashionable figure Some cautions when working with dyes ISO: Hints on making Tin Man costumes for Wizard of Oz Right handed lefties Shoemaking Foam latex masks Source for kilt patterns Purpose of the list ----------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:00:15 +1100 From: S.Randles@UTS.Edu.Au (Sarah Randles) Subject: Cartridge pleated panel in Italian costume Sorry it's taken me a while to get round to replying to your posting Heather, but I wanted to take the time to do some research and play with some fabric. This is in answer to your post, and Linda Gilbert's response. Heather wrote: >>We'd have to compare painting citations to make sure we're talking about >>the same effect, but ... are we discussing the type of gown (or man's >>tabard of the same period) that has sculpturally perfect round folds >>falling from around chest level throughout the length of the garment? If >>so, I have made a different interpretation. Comparing with >>representations that aren't quite so perfect and stylized -- but still >>appear to be the same style -- and with slightly earlier styles, I >>interpret this as the natural folds of a widely-flaring garment, >>represented in art as being much more regular (and perhaps fuller) than >>the original may have been. If you look at a painting like Fiorenzo di >>Lorenzo's "The Miracle of St. Bernardino" (1473) you see tabards in the >>same style with drapes of varying "naturalness". Interestingly, the >>foreground figures have more pronounced and (by my interpretation) >>stylized folds than the two background figures. and Linda wrote: >I think that it's *sometimes* just a circle, but *not* always. Like all >garments, there's an evolution....probably early forms started much as you >described, but it became more sophisticated over time. Many times, the cut >is more complex (and the artist more accurate) than we like to believe... The picture to which I was refering to is a fresco by Francesco del Cossa, 15th century Italian at Ferrara, which is I think also the one Linda is talking about, although the dress which I based mine on is not the lady with the lute, but rather a lady with a red dress and cap, standing with her back to us, next to a lady in a pinky brown dress with hanging sleeves. I am pleased to say that my decision to put in a back panel was based on the back of this dress and not random creativity. :-) I spent some time looking at various pictures from this period, and slightly earlier, playing with some cloth and talking to my local costuming gurus, and have come to the conclusion that I'm with Linda on this one - there are two different ways of doing this, both for the men's tabards and the women's dresses. Version 1, which appears to be the earlier, although the styles are concurrent, is the one where the body of the garment is cut as a segment of a circle and then pleated across the front in regular, cartrigde pleats, presumably sewn at the back to keep their shape. This type of pleating is very regular, but does not start in a straight line across the top. Rather, the top of the pleats are at different vertical points, depending on the curve of the chest/bust. Examples of this type of pleating are evident in the school of Van Eyck painting showing all the men and women in white parading around a garden (I don't think this one actually has a title.) Version 2, which is in the above mentioned fresco, has the pleats starting in an even line across the curve of the chest in the middle of the garment, and flat to the sides. I played with pieces of circular cut fabric trying to make them do this, and found it completely impossible to get this effect. This leads to one of two possibilities - (a) the artist didn't know what he was painting or (b) this is set in as a separate pleated panel. I reject (a) in this instance, because this fresco is actually very careful in its attention to detail, showing seam lines on the backs of dresses and hose, and also because other contemporary paintings also show this effect. An example is the dress worn by the woman in the "Lovers at the Casement" portrait (of course I don't have the details with me!). Which leaves me with option (b), and if it can be Italian, I don't see why not German. I think the only reason my dress didn't work out so well was ineptitude in dressmaking, not a misinterpretation. More comments welcome. Sarah ******************************************************* Sarah Randles S.Randles@uts.edu.au Research Office Telephone: (02)330 1252 University of Technology, Sydney Fax: (02)330 1252 ----------------------- Subject: Re: Some Misc Thoughts, and London Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 23:18:58 -0800 From: Martha Underwood In message <199502221418.AA27811@world.std.com> you write: > >I'm more than happy to discuss technical aspects of corset making and >fitting - after all, the advice I got here last fall helped me achieve >the best fitting bodice I've ever made. However, any other discussion I'm very interested in learning how to make a good, well fitting, and supportive bodice for myself as well. Something that a peasant woman would have worn, over a chemise, and with her skirts. Again, I have the busty problem, and while I could wear a bra under it, I really hate my bras, as they are so uncomfortable. As well, they are not accurate historically. Any hints as to where to begin? Would anyone have archives for the discussion mentioned above? Thanks again all. -- Martha "Dream Dancer" Underwood ddancer@netcom.com Five(!) cats and a Needlework shop........Talk about an interesting life! Owner of: Natural Stitches: Knitting, Crochet, Cross-Stitch and more A Pittsburgh Needlework Shop ----------------------- From: alana_guy@broder.com Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 21:48:42 Subject: neckties- their origin? their destination? I heard from my high school drama teacher that neckties resulted from a dinner party at which the king showed up with his horrible oozing neck goiter covered with an ascot. I half-believe this, and I've heard no other explanation. I would love historical background for it. I'm almost afraid to bring this up, but I feel that neckties are to men what corsets were to women - a leash, a sign of subjugation to the will of authority. Perhaps men need to gather in the streets, throw their neckties on the pyre, and tell the politicians and corporate twits to kiss off. Don't get me wrong - I love wearing my Renaissance bodice, I occasionally wear pantyhose for dressup when I need a smooth line, and my boyfriend wears a lovely jacquard tie with tiny Bugs and Daffy heads woven subtly into the fabric. All I'm saying is, it's a choice we make to wear them, and we sigh in relief when we take them off. What a shame that most of corporate and political America insists on power ties and power suits and pantyhose in order for a person to be considered a success. Yuck. (and only the men get to wear the ties, and only the women get to wear the pantyhose. Talk about lack of flexibility!) This, by the way, is the only rant you'll ever hear from me. I'm normally a gentle and mild-mannered individual; hope I haven't offended anyone. Warm regards ALana ----------------------- From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Accessing the archives. Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 23:02:28 -0800 (PST) Martha "Dream Dancer" Underwood ddancer@netcom.com writes: > In message <199502221418.AA27811@world.std.com> you write: > >I'm more than happy to discuss technical aspects of corset making and > >fitting - after all, the advice I got here last fall helped me achieve > [snip] > Any hints as to where to begin? Would anyone have archives for the > discussion mentioned above? Yes, this discussion is in the archives. Archives are available via automatic retrieval, using e-mail, from majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Note that archived digests are stored by year/month/day of creation, rather than by volume number. To get an index of available back issues of this list, send a message with the words: index h-costume in the body of the message, to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Then use the command: get h-costume filename where "filename" is the actual name of the file, to retrieve the named file. Multiple requests per message are allowed. I suggest starting with the files CONTENTS and TOPICS. The first is a list of all the topics discussed, split up by volume numbers. The second is an alphabetical list of all the topics discussed and a notation of in which volume they can be found. So you'd send: get h-costume CONTENTS get h-costume TOPICS end as the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com and the server will send you back those files. Then search those files for "corset" and you'll get a list of files to check into further. -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch today. :-) ----------------------- From: BILLinMN@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 03:37:29 -0500 Subject: Fulling Wool Beth, I know you didn't initiate the conversation about fulling wool, but you seem to have some experience with it, as well as a consistently thorough body of knowledge about costuming subjects in general. I am also sending this question out to the group in general. This thread about fulling brought to mind a perennial problem in 19th century (especially men's) costuming: nobody can find wool that compares with the slightly felted, extremely tight weave, but not necessarily heavy, wool one finds in original frock coats,etc. Might this wool have been fulled? Can one reproduce this material by fulling a good quality suiting wool? If you, Beth, or anyone else in the group has any experience or advice in this regard, a lot of people would be very pleased to hear about it. Thanks in advance, Bill Nelson ----------------------- From: "Cindy Abel" Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 08:44:48 CDT Subject: Re: Some Misc Thoughts Dear Babs and others on the list: No expert here, but although there was a revolt against the corset and some replacement with the bra in the '20's, I've seen catalog illustrations and reprints of the time for corsets that ran all the way to the hips for those females not blessed with the fashionable boyish figures, many with lots of elastic inserts and such. I think we replaced corsets with sometimes severe diet and exercise in an attempt to meet the fashionable female of at least 5 ft 7 inches and 115 lbs of today. And how many of us meet those criteria? Cindy Abel(a mere 4 ft 11 1/2 " and ten pounds over ideal weight) Health Sciences Library Creighton University 2500 California Plaza Omaha Ne 68178-0400 Phone: 402-280-5144 ----------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 09:46:51 -0500 (EST) From: "K.C. Kozminski" Subject: Re: Dye A note on dyes: ALL comercially available dyes which are not natural dyes are analine dyes, some are more toxic than others. Always use dyes in an area with good ventilation, always wear gloves,*Always* use a dust-mask when measuring or working with powders, even Rit and Tintex. Micro-particles are present in any powdered dye, even natural dyes, and they can be carsinigenic (SP?). Never use eating utensils for dying, and never measure dyes in an area where there is food or food preparation. If you happen to be pregnant, put your project off or ask a friend to handle the dyes for you. I *cannot* stress too much the importance of saftey in handling dyes, even the ones you buy in the drug store or supermarket (in some cases those are worse than the heavy duty types). Read the instructions and task sensible procautions. It's windy up here on the soap-box! KC Don't think of it as aging, think of it as "Attaining Mythic Stature" kc/Roen who is, herself ----------------------- Subject: Re: Some Misc Thoughts Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 10:15:32 -0500 From: Babs Woods Cindy, You're 1/4" taller than me and probably a good 35lbs lighter. You can imagine how little I can buy off the rack. I even have D-width feet. -babs ----------------------- From: DENISE@HARV-EHS.mhs.harvard.edu Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 10:09:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Supportive Bodices If you'll tell me what era/country you're interested in, I may be able to help you. I've researched and made three different types of middle-class Renaissance bodices, all of them boned, which provide good support without a bra even for me (an extremely zoftig lady). Two of the versions (one a German 16th c., the other based on Bruegel's dancing peasants) only require boning in the center front; the third, a mid-16th c. English version, is completely boned like a corset. Only the Bruegel's bodice is peasant-wear -- it also provides the least support and gives you the mono-busom look so common among poor women of this period. Peasant women could not afford heavily constructed clothing (which would also restrict their movements -- boned bodices usually restrict forward bending from the waist), and I suspect the garments I modeled this bodice after were simply made of very heavily felted wool and stiff canvas, with no boning at all. However, in order to save myself from heat prostration, I made mine of lighter fabrics and boned the center front. Hope I'll be able to help you! Denise Zaccagnino Lady Deonora Ridenow in the SCA ----------------------- Date: 23 Feb 95 10:42:24 EST From: STACY DEREZINSKI <75537.2211@compuserve.com> Subject: Tin Man Experience? Hi I'm looking for insight from people who have made the Tin Man for the Wizard of Oz. I'm wondering what materials people used, how much it cost, and how satisfied they were with the finished product. As well, I'm having trouble developing a good treatment for the shoulder, elbow, hip, and knee joints...Any suggestions/insight would be much appreciated!! Thanks in advance, stacy <75537.2211@compuserve.com> ps I just signed on this list and am not sure I did it right, so if you could respond directly to my address, I"d appreciate it. Thanks! -s. ----------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 11:14:28 -0500 (EST) From: "Jim O'Connor" Subject: Sinister, Shoes, & Shoemaking > > But it was my understanding that being left-handed was not particularly > acceptable in the past centuries. (And isn't the French word for > left "sinistre" and the english word taken from that has bad connotations). The latin word for left is 'sinister' and my teachers (one should always pay them at least some small heed) said to be careful of the context when translating because even in the original Roman texts it can mean just plain left or have exactly the same meaning as the modern English word. Furthermore, no need to go back further than before WW II. I know plenty of people, who went to school then, who can recount stories of verbal, even corporal abuse heaped upon children who wrote lefthanded. Re: shoes and shoemaking. Not an easy subject to pin down (and for all you shoemakers; pardon the gross pun.) I believe there are a few courses on this subject, but I don't have the details to hand. There are shoemakers who will craft them; for instance, there is a shoemaker at Olde Sturbridge Village, which is an interpreted 1830's New England Village. However, he would probably aver that shoemaking has mostly been a specialized industry, and the local shoemaker primarily made shoes for those with special needs. Shoes were made at home in New England in the 1700's and 1800's but this was done more like a wide area assembly line. One home would do the cutting, then runners would take the blanks to another home, where another part of the process would be completed, then move the partly finished shoes onto yet another home. Consequently the old census records hardly ever list 'shoemaker' instead there are cutters, stitchers, needlers, finishers etc... Since the runners couldn't travel very far, shoemaking tended to become a speciality of certain locales. The dictionary says that a slipper is a lightweight shoe, but I think that is an incomplete definition. A slipper is better thought of as something that can't be worn out of doors because it is neither weatherproof or sturdy enough. Obvioulsy that makes a big difference in both materials and construction techniques. Also the finisher assembles the shoe on a 'last', which is typically a wooden form that mimics the human foot. The human foot itself makes a wonderful last if done correctly (i.e. stand on it, don't sit, as mentioned earlier), if for no other reason than it bends. One of the major breakthroughs in shoemaking was the invention of lasts that disassembled. Before that the finisher had to call in his cousin Jack Armstrong to prise the finished shoe off the last. There are stores of shoes that couldn't be gotten off, but that's a topic for the etymology of foul language. Speaking of which, the hints on adjusting tension on the bobbin have been most welcome. I suspect that bobbin tension needs to be adjusted for different threads since they can't all behave the same. Are bobbons inherently sinister, which hand deals with them most? One final word, to partly understand the necktie it might be well to look at the gorget (sic). That little remnant of armor seen around the neck of military officers, especially in the late 1700's period. ----------------------- From: KLINES@GBMS01.UWGB.EDU Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 19:58:29 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: software and masks Dyann, How soon do you need the masks? Foam latex is a VERY involved process and failure rate VERY high. I've gotten supplies from Burman Industries, Van Nuys, CA. Sue Kline-Heim klines@uwgb.edu ----------------------- From: VDONNELL@ACAD1.MTSU.EDU Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 22:06:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Gretchen Miller For a kilt pattern, call Baer's Fabrics in Louisville,Ky at (503) no that's (502) 583-5521 ----------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 08:56:37 -0800 (PST) From: Catherine Kehl Subject: Re: Some Misc Thoughts On Wed, 22 Feb 1995, cynthia wrote: > > Well, thank you, cin, I do stand somewhat corrected on some > matters of fashion history. I do wonder why women so strongly > uphold the restrictions placed on us by men, but ... > > And those that we place on _ourselves_ for modesty, elegance, > health, competitiveness, and the ever-popular propriety. I rather > doubt we can blame men for most fashion foibles. Charles Worth was > fond of taking credit for abolishing the crinoline. Wonder who we > can blame for silly male fashions like: the peascod belly, waist Subject: Subject: Re: what's relevant Laurence (Four) Hewes writes: >Fellow-subscribers, >I find both the discussions of corset wearing and appreciating and of >personal >and historical records of menstrual dressings (?) to be interesting. I say >neither of them are relevant to historical costuming. Why has no one who's >objected to the irrelevance of the former topic also objected to the latter? Why is this topic not relevant to Costuming? Must costume only be visible garments? I attempt head-to-toe realism, and often find the underlying garment have relevance to the lay of the outer garments. And does not the goal of this list include research of period clothing (as opposed to "costume", which seems to imply a decorative function)? The usual tuppence from Broom, and remember, tuppence doesn't go as far as it used. | Broom, at The Lady Perrine | aka Joe Marfice | Ministerium honor est. \|/ which means "Don't put that in your mouth--you know where it's been!" /|\ 513-222-2330 233 Perrine Street //|\\ af289@dayton.wright.edu Dayton (my faire citee), OH 45410 ----------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 12:20:00 -0500 (EST) From: "Jim O'Connor" Subject: Re: Tin Man Experience? On 23 Feb 1995, STACY DEREZINSKI wrote: > Hi > I'm looking for insight from people who have made the Tin Man for the Wizard of > Oz. I'm wondering what materials people used, how much it cost, and how > satisfied they were with the finished product. As well, I'm having trouble > developing a good treatment for the shoulder, elbow, hip, and knee joints...Any > suggestions/insight would be much appreciated!! > Thanks in advance, > stacy One precaution, be sure to use approved theatrical makeup. The orginal Tin Man in the movie was Buddy Ebsen (a.k.a. Jed Clampett) but he became serioulsy ill due to a reaction to the aluminum powder used in the first makeup formula. Moral, don't mix your own! Have see passably good renditions of a Tin Man using plastic armor costumes. Just applique or redo the chest portion so that it is more of a barrel shape. The rest of the costume has reasonably good joints. If you want more sources about armor you might call or write the Higgins Armory, which is located at 100 Barber Ave., Worcester, MA 01606, (508) 853-6015 (if the phone number is out of date just call information in Worcester, by the way it's Wooster just like in P.G. Wodehouse's Wooster and Jeeves , not Warchester.) This is one of the finest museum collections of real Armor this side of the great Atlantic puddle. A fascinating place to visit, albeit a bit off the beaten path. I believe they have a gift shop operation that sells plastic armor etc... ----------------------- End of Volume 239 -----------------------