From: Gretchen Miller Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 17:42:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 240, 2/28/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 240, February 28, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Some "me, too"s 20th century shoe styles Information about the f-costume list Fulling wool and The Final Steps pamphlet Source for doublet and trews pattern Definitions: Flat lining/bag lining Sewing machine woes solved! ISO: Info on finishing seams on a yoke Appropriate for the list Right handed lefties History of neckties Review of "Fittingly Sew" Shoemaking Capes ----------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 08:36:27 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) Subject: Re: Some Misc Thoughts, and London Elizabeth wrote: :I'm off to London soon. What shouldn't I miss as far as exhibits and :collections? I've saved a few notes from previous discussions, but :I'd love any information about special programs or favorite places. :I'll be there from March 17-27. Thanks! I'd be interested also, since I'm going to England in about 2 years. Kat Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.rain.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ----------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 09:05:55 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) Subject: Re: shoes' pointy toes :During what period(s) in this century were those wider, rounder :toes on high-heels stylish? The fifties? I remember trying a :pair on in a costume department *years* ago, and thinking how :much more comfortable they seemed to be, even though the heel was :much higher than anything I ever wore (although I didn't walk in :them for very long), and also how much I liked the gentle lines of :the rounded toe. I still own a pair of high heels with round toes from the 70's. They were also required by some of the airlines, because despite their high heel (about 2 1/2 inches) the heel was not stiletto but about 1" across. They also had a modest platform (about 3/8"). I also have another pair from the same time period which have a higher heel, slightly higher platform (about 1/2") with heels which stamp out hearts. Kat Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.rain.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ----------------------- From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Re: Tin Man Experience? Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 09:29:50 -0800 (PST) > I'm looking for insight from people who have made the Tin Man for the > Wizard of Oz. I'm wondering what materials people used, how much it cost, > [snip] This list is about *historic* clothing, not about fantasy-type costumes like the Tin Man costume. You'd probably get a better response asking about that on the fantasy costume list. Here's the info on that list: The fantasy costume mailing list concentrates on the design, motivation and execution of fantasy clothing and costume, from all eras: past, present and future. The imagination is your only limitation! Discussions include special event costumes ("cons" and parades), science fiction costumes, mythological and other non-factual historic-type costumes, serious Halloween and Mardi Gras costumes, theatrical costumes, creative and motivational forces, using and finding patterns, materials, books, and other sources for supplies. Publications, galleries, shows and museums that offer displays of fantasy costume, or learning opportunities available through art schools and workshops, are also of interest to this list. Technical discussions cover silkscreening methods, dyeing, beading, marbling, machine embroidery, incorporating mixed media, the use of unusual materials such as aluminum cans, chain links or wire cloth, etc. and the use of various fabrics, such as lycra, sheers, netting and metallics, etc., to achieve certain effects. Mask making, headgear and makeup issues are also often discussed. Collective group projects and exchanges of experimental materials are welcome. This list has both a direct mail and a digest version. Both carry identical information and conversations, but the procedure to sign up for one or the other is a little different. To sign up, send the word: subscribe as the body of the message to f-costume-request@lunch.engr.sgi.com for the direct mail version, or to f-costume-digest-request@lunch.engr.sgi.com for the digest version. -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch today. :-) ----------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 09:21:34 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) Subject: Re: Fulling Wool Bill Nelson wrote: :I know you didn't initiate the conversation about fulling wool, but you seem :to have some experience with it, as well as a consistently thorough body of :knowledge about costuming subjects in general. I am also sending this :question out to the group in general. : :This thread about fulling brought to mind a perennial problem in 19th century :(especially men's) costuming: nobody can find wool that compares with the :slightly felted, extremely tight weave, but not necessarily heavy, wool one :finds in original frock coats,etc. :Might this wool have been fulled? Can one reproduce this material by fulling :a good quality suiting wool? :If you, Beth, or anyone else in the group has any experience or advice in :this regard, a lot of people would be very pleased to hear about it. There is an excellent pamphlet on this called _The Final Steps_ by Beverly Gordon. It is put out by Interweave Press and covers (as they say) "Traditional methodes and contemporary applications for finishing cloth by hand". It covers fulling, bleaching, napping, cropping, and many techniques for surfaces such as how to get moire. Kat Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.rain.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ----------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 13:24:43 -0500 (EST) From: charles godfrey Subject: Re: trews & doublet On Tue, 21 Feb 1995, John Stelling wrote: > I'm trying to get the last of my costume changes done for LHC. Does > anyone have a pattern (or source for same) for a leather doublet and > a pair of trews circa 1500's. > > jds Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion. The old standby. It has patterns from actual period garments in it. They need to be blown up and altered to fit you. Hope this helps. Derek ----------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 13:26:52 -0500 (EST) From: charles godfrey Subject: Re: autocad for design On Wed, 22 Feb 1995, Kerri Potratz wrote: > I was wondering if anyone has or has tried the autocad program for > designing clothing/costumes. I am also interested in what you thought of > it and how it compares to just actually drawing the costumes out. My > rendering techniques still leave something to be desired... :) > > I am a senior is costume design and am interested in trying it if I can > ever find someone with the program. I also am interested in this info. Thanks, Derek ----------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 13:33:17 -0500 (EST) From: "K.C. Kozminski" Subject: Flat-lining/bag-lining Heigh-ho! A few folks have asked for an explaination of these terms, so I thought I'd send them for the whole list. Bag-lining is lining a garment so that all the seams are inside, like the lining in coats and suits. The purpose of this is for appearance, and also to give shape to a garment that does not fall along the natural shape of the body. It also give longer wearability. Flat-lining is adding one or more layers to the garment pieces before they are constructed, and sewing lining and outer fabric together at the same time. This method will give you raw seams on the inside of your garment, but will give it more strength and stability. I recomend sewing the lining pieces to the outer garment pieces on or just outside the stitching lines, sewing the garment together, then covering the seams with a bias strip if it bothers you to see them, many Elizabethian and Victorian garments are constructed like this. You can also finish the raw edges of the seams with pinking, or over-stitching by hand or machine. Happy stitching! KC Don't think of it as aging, think of it as "Attaining Mythic Stature" kc/Roen who is, herself ----------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 10:36:42 PDT From: Gail DeCamp Subject: Re: Sinister, Shoes, & Shoemaking This is a wierd thing..in regard to the left handed thing. I was " forcibly " turned into a righty. But recently I started taking piano lessons and guess what I'm still a lefty on that side of my brain :) ---------------------------------------------------------- If Voltaire could look down on the world today, I believe he would say, " Don't you people have lives!?" Samhain@mail.pacificrim.net ---------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 14:17:13 -0500 (EST) From: charles godfrey Subject: Re: what's relevant On Wed, 22 Feb 1995, laurence (four) hewes wrote: > Fellow-subscribers, > > > I find both the discussions of corset wearing and appreciating and of personal > and historical records of menstrual dressings (?) to be interesting. I say > neither of them are relevant to historical costuming. Why has no one who's > objected to the irrelevance of the former topic also objected to the latter? Of > course, my unfortunate suspicion is that discussing menstrual appliances (?) is > not as disturbing/offensive to those respondents. Am I right? Are they equally > irrelevant? Is one offensive and the other not? Am I now as guilty of > digression as them (you). Am I asking for trouble? I hope so. > > > -4 > I don't find this offensive, but it does take up too much of my mailbox. I don't have time to read these messages and go through and delete them. Even though I am male, I do find it interesting, but inappropriate for public posts. The initial request for info was fine...but replies should be private. Thanks. ----------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 14:21:30 -0500 (EST) From: charles godfrey Subject: Re: Buttoning side. On Wed, 22 Feb 1995, Kelly Keith wrote: > > I've been listening to the buttoning debate for a few weeks now, and I'm > not convinced about the "sword drawing" explanation. I fenced in college > and know that right-handed fencing is not an absolute rule; there are > many left-handed fencers. I imagine this occured in past centuries as > well, and if shirt openings were THAT important, then it seems reasonable > to expect that we'd find some men's shirts that opened as women's do. > (i.e. they would have belonged to lefties.) > > **Kelly Keith** > e-mail kkeith@u.washington.edu > > You are correct. But remember lefties are not that common. They are more common now than then. Keep in mind, they were made to be right handed by training, it was socially unacceptable to be left handed in a lot of cases. There are examples of this in our own century. Also remember, the left hand was used for defense by righthanded swordsmen. There are just a shortage of mens shirts in existense that were worn by lefties. Derek ----------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 14:27:10 -0500 (EST) From: charles godfrey Subject: Re: Buttoning side. On Wed, 22 Feb 1995, Alexandra Rankin Ohlson wrote: > > > >>I fenced in college and know that right-handed fencing is not an > >>absolute rule; there are many left-handed fencers. > > But it was my understanding that being left-handed was not particularly > acceptable in the past centuries. (And isn't the French word for > left "sinistre" and the english word taken from that has bad connotations). > It's my guess, though I have no proof, that swordsmen would indeed have > always been right handed. > > alexandra > Just another example of differences between modern sport fencing and duelling fencing (period fencing we call it). Derek ----------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 14:40:55 -0500 (EST) From: charles godfrey Subject: Re: neckties- their origin? their destination? On Wed, 22 Feb 1995 alana_guy@broder.com wrote: > > I heard from my high school drama teacher that neckties resulted from a dinner > party at which the king showed up with his horrible oozing neck goiter covered > with an ascot. I half-believe this, and I've heard no other explanation. I > would love historical background for it. > > I'm almost afraid to bring this up, but I feel that neckties are to men what > corsets were to women - a leash, a sign of subjugation to the will of authority. > Perhaps men need to gather in the streets, throw their neckties on the pyre, and > tell the politicians and corporate twits to kiss off. Don't get me wrong - I > love wearing my Renaissance bodice, I occasionally wear pantyhose for dressup > when I need a smooth line, and my boyfriend wears a lovely jacquard tie with > tiny Bugs and Daffy heads woven subtly into the fabric. All I'm saying is, it's > a choice we make to wear them, and we sigh in relief when we take them off. What > a shame that most of corporate and political America insists on power ties and > power suits and pantyhose in order for a person to be considered a success. > Yuck. (and only the men get to wear the ties, and only the women get to wear the > pantyhose. Talk about lack of flexibility!) > Ok. I have worn hose (Rocky Horror Picture Show for those of you who are gawking). I also wear dance tights (danskin cotton lycra) as part of my SCA garb. The modern hose are uncomfortable. Especially fishnets. The thigh highs are super scratchy too. However, the tights are not too bad. > This, by the way, is the only rant you'll ever hear from me. >I'm normally a gentle and mild-mannered individual; hope I haven't > offended anyone. > > > Warm regards > ALana > Hear! Hear! What a woman! :> I hate ties. I wish us men didn't "have" to wear them. A choice, ok. Required no thank you. We shouldn't have to be uncomfortable at work. Men or Women. Men wore hose before women stole the fashion from us. Just a reminder. :) Derek ----------------------- From: Monica Shen Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 11:41:23 -0800 Subject: round toed shoes Hello- Someone asked what decade round-toed high-heeled shoes were in fashion. I've seen pictures from both the forties and fifties that show shoes that look an awful lot like (dance) character shoes. They have rounded toes, a wider heel than most moden heels, and a strap across the instep. Character shoes are really, really comfortable, even for days and nights of dancing on end. They can be bought at most dance supply shops. So, for those like me that aren't as dedicated as Cin B. and make their own shoes, this is a good costume shoe. Monica ----------------------- Date: 23 Feb 95 14:44:33 EST From: STACY DEREZINSKI <75537.2211@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: autocad for design I don't have autocad, but I've used a program called "Fittingly Sew", put out by Bartley Software. It's a very young program, and consequently has many problems. Here's a summary: 1. program does not provide a tool for grading a pattern. It will draft a fitting shell/sloper, and then import that sloper into a drafting application, adding ease. You then have to draft a pattern to that sloper. Once the pattern has been drafted, you can not import a sloper in a different size. This, as far as I am concerned, would be the biggest reason to even bother with a computer application, but unfortunately, this company is not moving in the direction to develop such a tool. Instead, they are marketing individually drafted "templates", which ARE gradeble, but are like buying a commercial pattern. To develop a template with this program, you need to know a programming language like pascal. Levi Strauss has just begun marketing personalized jeans. The company that is developing this software IS trying to come up with a program that grades; they are using measurements taken of women in the Reserves, which gives them a fairly large data pool. Perhaps they will eventually market their program... 2. Altering bust sizes causes a glich in the armhole. There is a function called "redevelop" that is supposed to rectify this, but it doesn't work. 3. I find that drafting on screen is difficult. A lot of the decisions that I make when cutting a garment I do by eye, and it is hard to do this when you're staring at a 1/4 scale image or smaller. I suppose it would get easier with practice, but it seems that there aren't enough advantages to computer drafting to bother. I think that until I can draft a corset once and have it on disk ready to be imported to any individual's size, this application is far too time consuming. my 2cents worth... stacy ----------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:03:07 -0500 From: Joe Marfice Subject: Re: Fulling wool Ooh! Ooh! Something I actually know, and not just have a guess at! The British Museum (or M. of London--it's been a few years, but I can check) contains an exhibit of a dagged tippet that looked as thus: _____ _____ _____ _____ _____ / / / / / / / / / / _/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_ < > < > (torn at both ends) < > <_ __ __ __ __ __> \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \____\ \____\ \____\ \____\ \____\ Neither edge seemed biased (and I could get my nose somewhat close to the goody for inspection of threads). It was a single-layer of cloth-- confirming an earlier statement from a friend (and Mistress of the Laurel in costuming, for SCAdians) that "period dags weren't hemmed. The cloth was a tightly-woven, fulled wool, that didn't ravel." Ta-dah! 1st-class, 1st-person, primary documentation! Another friend remembered hearing once that, to save cloth, seams were sometimes butt-joined with a herringbone stitch. This afforded me the technique to make my first 'transitional' chaperone hood (from the 1390's, when the item was transitioning from hood to turban-hat). The only ways to have a smooth roll around the head as you roll up the headband (cloth that _was_ a faceline) is either butt-join or line the hood--and I ruled out the latter on several pieces of evidence. Voilin! The hood of the pictures (or one very belike it) appeared, after fulling the wool to strengthen the seam. | Broom, at The Lady Perrine | aka Joe Marfice | Ministerium honor est. \|/ which means "Don't put that in your mouth--you know where it's been!" /|\ 513-222-2330 233 Perrine Street //|\\ af289@dayton.wright.edu Dayton (my fayre citee), OH 45410 ----------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 15:44:10 -0500 (EST) From: Victoria Gilliam Subject: Re: Supportive Bodices On Thu, 23 Feb 1995 DENISE@HARV-EHS.mhs.harvard.edu wrote: > If you'll tell me what era/country you're interested in, I may be able to > help you. I've researched and made three different types of middle-class > Renaissance bodices, all of them boned, which provide good support > without a bra even for me (an extremely zoftig lady). Two of the > versions (one a German 16th c., the other based on Bruegel's dancing > peasants) only require boning in the center front; the third, a mid-16th > c. English version, is completely boned like a corset. > > Only the Bruegel's bodice is peasant-wear -- it also provides the least > support and gives you the mono-busom look so common among poor women of > this period. Peasant women could not afford heavily constructed clothing > (which would also restrict their movements -- boned bodices usually > restrict forward bending from the waist), and I suspect the garments I > modeled this bodice after were simply made of very heavily felted wool > and stiff canvas, with no boning at all. However, in order to save > myself from heat prostration, I made mine of lighter fabrics and boned > the center front. I'm interested in corsets as well. Esp. in Scotland 1300's...any help for me? (Even books on the period that have more than 1 picture ;} Vycke' -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errs. Brain fried -- core dumped. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Vycke' Gilliam z009341b@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us ----------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 14:35:03 PST From: "cynthia" Subject: Shoemaking (elves recommended) (more excerpts from an old posting to cw-reenactors) Ways to make shoemaking easier (quoth Carolyn Barrows): Take a shoe apart and see how the pros work. Capezio's character shoes make an impressive example. Get another brand and compare the contruction. Realize, that like a corset, you must sew with extreme precision. An 1/4" error is alot and you dont always have laces to adjust a shoe like you can a corset. Notice that your left foot is not the same as your right! (argh!) Make a plaster cast of your foot, while standing on it. Your foot changes when you step with weight. This model is called a last; wooden ones bear no resemblance to real feet. (Unless you're SO wealthy you had Ferragamo or whomever make one for you..) Baste the upper to the sole when it's on your plaster foot. Two way to improve the durability of your shoe: Add "foxing". These are contrasting pieces of leather or suede that cover the toe & heel of your shoe. This slows heavy wear on silk or satin dancing slippers. Or on men's slippers to go with that smoking gown and silly turkish cap. Sew or glue a leather sole to the bottom. Carolyn recommends Barge's Glue as it is good with fabric & leather. It also dries pliable. I havent used glue, yet. Barge's All-Purpose Glue is available at leatherwork shops and hardware stores. Her warning: It stinks like the very devil, go outside; it NEVER comes off so make sure your spreader, workarea and gloves!!! are throw-away items. Mystical things Carolyn mumbled about that were beyond my skill level: You can buy heels and have your local tame shoe repair shop attach them (nails & screws). But you have to put an extra piece of leather on the sole at the heel. If you do heels, you need a shank that supports the arch of the foot. Some shoe designs have stiching on the OUTSIDE (like modern wingtips). It's fairly easy to add hard soles to these. (But you need an industrial Juki sewing machine or a tame shoemaker.) Theater grade technique: Covering and remodeling "almost right" shoes. Pry the sole away from the upper, cover with fabric, (reshape if needed .. perhaps squaring the toe), glue back together. --cin Cynthia@caere.com ----------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 15:18:29 PST From: donna@Kwantlen.BC.CA (Donna Hrynkiw) Subject: More on Kinsale Cape Am I too late to talk just a little bit more about capes -- specifically the Kinsale Cloak? I made the Kinsale Cloak from the Folkwear pattern many years ago, somewhat -before- I joined the SCA. I made it out of a medium-weight dark grey wool and lined it with black, fairly heavy lining. As I remember, the Kinsale is basically a large, slightly re-shaped rectangle which is gathered along one long side into a large, fold-over collar. The hood is a large half-circle attached with buttons under the collar, that lays -flat- over the shoulders. When you want to wear it up over your head, it is gathered into a wearable shape by pulling and tying a drawstring that runs along, but several inches from, the edge of the hood. Once I joined the SCA and started wearing the cloak on a regular basis, I soon decided that I needed a different cloak. The biggest problem was that the thing just didn't keep me WARM (the lining was made for the theatre and not camping, alas). The other major problem was that it kept slipping backwards and choking me. Possibly also caused by the lining, but also because the thing had no SHAPE to hold it to my shoulders. For the last... oh, seven or eight years, I've worn a cloak made from a modern pattern that is basically four triangular pieces, and is shaped over the shoulders. (No hood). It's made from a light-to-medium weight wool and lined with a short-pile fake fur. It stays on my shoulders so well that I often don't even bother to close the clasp. Donna (the other Donna) Hrynkiw (SCA: Mistress Elizabeth Braidwood) donna@kwantlen.bc.ca ----------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Feb 95 16:09:23 PST From: susanf@EERC.Berkeley.Edu (Susan Fatemi) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 235, 2/24/95 This must be a very elementary question, but could someone please explain what is meant by "flat-lining"?? (in medical terminology of course, it means you're dead) I've been sewing for more years than I care to thiink about, but I don't know this term. Bag-lining means like when you line a jacket and only attach the lining around the edges?? Ignorant seamstress, Susan Fatemi susanf@berkeley.edu ----------------------- End of Volume 240 -----------------------