From: Gretchen Miller Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 12:35:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 251, 3/8/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 252, March 8, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: History of underwear/pantyhose Other sources for ethnic patterns History of the bra Another recommended dye book Wholesale sources in Los Angeles and NYC ISO: Address for the Bay Area ICG Advice on dying Where have my responses gone? List suggestions Cordwainers Question about fitting an Elizabethan bodice ----------------------- Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 17:55:53 EST From: "Hoover, Kathleen M" Subject: more on underwear Boy, has this thread dredged up some memories for me, too. I was in high school in the mid-sixties and remember vividly the problems that garter-belted nylons caused with mini-skirts! But I also remember the transition starting with the trend to tights. I imagined myself somewhat of a trend setter back in those days. In fact it's why I started sewing - so I could have those Carnaby Street/Mary Quant fashions that I saw in Seventeen magazine before anyone else in my school. One of Seventeen's favorite models was named Colleen Corby, if I remember correctly, and I loved everything she was photographed in. Fairly early on, maybe '64 (?), she was shown wearing tights under her little collegiate plaid skirts and jumpers. I said, "Why not?" and dug back into my drawer and pulled out all those tights I still had from 4th, 5th, 6th grade. They still had seams up the back, even though nylons had long since lost theirs. Needless to say, I WAS the only one in my school with colored legs. My clothes were the only way this otherwise painfully shy teenager had of saying "Hey - look at me!" Thanks for letting me reminisce! Kathy Hoover P.S. Fran: I grew around Pgh., where was that big Victorian you were describing? ----------------------- Date: Fri, 3 Mar 95 17:23:57 PST From: susanf@EERC.Berkeley.Edu (Susan Fatemi) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 246, 3/3/95 Not to disparage Folkwear or anything (except their prices), but check out the McCall's pattern book (no they're not my favourites either) but ... they have an ethnic section aimed at the Afro-American market. one of the patterns is a ringer for the Yoruba mans outfit in folkwear. They have some interesting things--also I think it's Simplicity that has a caftan patterns very much like F.'s "egyptian shirt". They also market Nancy Zieman's vest patterns. Oh, to everyone who helped me with the "hakama" I asked about awhile back-- here's the follow-up (everyone else may tune-out now). My son went to get his kendo armor out of layaway and found another pair of hakama, this time SPLIT (also tiny)--so I can make a "pattern" now to fit him. Also with a slight adaptation, they would make very elegant culottes (a contradiction in terms, but iit might work) The armor also came with a "judo" jacket which is made out of plain muslin. the yoke and sleeves are double layer of fabric, and the whole thing is "quilted" in a diamond pattern in a thick brownish thread, like floss. It's quite attractive and the design is certainly transferrable. Susan p.s. I mean McCall's markets miss nancys patterns. ----------------------- Date: 04 Mar 95 00:40:42 EST From: Gary Anderson <72437.674@compuserve.com> Subject: Bras Re The Invention of "Bras" >From Janet Wilson Anderson Among the esoterica in my library is a little gem called "Bust-Up" by Wallace Reyburn, which is subtitled. "The Uplifting Tale of Otto Titzling and the Development of the Bra." This little book tells the details of Otto's work and company. Seems Otto Titzling (no kidding!) developed the bra in 1912 for Swanhilda Olafsen. Swanhilda was a singer of majestic proportions who lived in the same boarding house in New York as Otto, who worked in the garment business. Her need for a supporting garment was the inspiration for Otto's breakthrough design. Over the years, Otto's company developed the first "falsies", and padded bras, adapted a sports protector from 1929 into the inflatable bra, and developed a front-fastening bra, among others. (The latter failed, by the waye way!) In the early 30's a Frenchman Phillipe De Brassiere began producing undergarments blatantly based on Otto's designs. Being a much more fashionable gentleman who had been a dress designer before the Crash of 1929, he enjoyed considerable success. Otto sued. Mountains of documentation were presented during the four year court case. But alas, Otto had neglected to patent his original 1912 design, though he had patented all the modifications. It was a difficult case and although Titzling did receive some damages relating to certain details of manufacture, the court was ultimately unsympathetic, and Brassiere really won. During the trial both sides presented their designs on live models. Phillipe's model was stunning and got a lot of publicity, among which was a large blow-up of her in 'The Police Gazette' in a revealing pose under the headline "I did it all for the Bra". And the name entered the mainstream, appearing in the Dictionary of American Slang in 1938, the year the case ended. Sad to say, Otto's firm never recovered from the financial and emotional set-back. He died in the forties, still insisting that he was robbed. And that's why we wear "bras", not "titzlings"! JanetWA ( who loves this kind of trivia!) ----------------------- Subject: Re: Life bra issue Date: Sat, 04 Mar 1995 10:58:02 -0500 From: Babs Woods Bird & all, I forget if it was '89 or '90, but I did collect the issue, both to marvel at and mark the occasion and in the (vain) hope that it might include more information than "isn't it grand". I would have loved to have seen a much more thorough pictorial spread of bras in different eras since their creation and maybe some of what preceded the bra and why it was so revolutionary or important (other than to us women). I'd also heard the story about Howard Hughes-the-Mad and the change in the bra. What were they like before then? How was this one so architecturally different? (Let's face it, bra design is very close to bridge design in many ways.) Anyone know? -babs ----------------------- From: LDeirdre@aol.com Date: Sat, 4 Mar 1995 12:30:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Dyeing book Hello, I have been using commercial dyes to dye mostly yarn, fibers and the occasional tee shirt. I find that procion mx works well with a variety of fibers, is very color fast and maybe safer than using "natural" dyes with the mordants that can be difficult to dispose of safely. The book I have found helpful, not only with how-to information but also basic principles of how dyes work and explanation of the various classes of dyes is:Synthetic Dyes for Natural Fibers, by Linda Knutson. It's $12. You can order it though Interweave Press, 201 E. Fourth Street, Loveland CO 80537. ----------------------- Date: Sat, 4 Mar 1995 10:08:27 -0800 (PST) From: Gwen Carnegi Subject: La/NY Garment district Greetings; This is for everyone who write for the list of sources in LA. Textile Assoc of Los Angeles(TALA) 819 Santee st.,#919, LA Ca 213-627-6173 If I remember right- the last time I paid dues they were $45.00/yr. The directory comes with the dues. There are several other directories for LA. Buttons by Design 212-292-9323(NY) or 213-489-4279(LA) These people are "the LA Lame of buttons". They will need a resale# and they are expensive. Best Button-213-747-9877 and Two Lads(call 213 info for #) are two really good button companies. Two Lads also carries some great findings. Also 2 more NY sources..... Far East Silks 212-764-6940. At the last textile show they had some incredible silks at the last textile show in LA. Good prices for the complexity of the jacqards and brochades. Oberoi 212-967-8540 specializes in beaded fringes and trims coming out of India. Remember---when dealing with these people, call ahead for a time and have that resale#! Most good sources will not talk to you with out it. See Ya..... Gwyn -------------------------------------------------------- | Gwyn Carnegie | "If tea-dying is to costumers what duct tape is| | gcarnegi@netcom.com | to fighters, then .....(to be continued)" | --------------------------------------------------------- **** Another Fine Product of Cynagua Distributions(tm) Systems **** ----------------------- Date: Sat, 4 Mar 1995 10:32:55 -0800 (PST) From: Gwen Carnegi Subject: Re: CostumeCon Someone mentioned to me that next year CostumeCon will be in the Sac/Bay Area. I remember several years ago the Bay Area Costumers Guild was putting together a proposal for 96'. Am I remembering right? And could someone post the mailing address for the Bay Area Costumers Guild. Thanks -------------------------------------------------------- | Gwyn Carnegie | "If tea-dying is to costumers what duct tape is| | gcarnegi@netcom.com | to fighters, then .....(to be continued)" | --------------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 3 Mar 1995, Marsha Hamilton wrote: > > > Sorry to go off the subject, but where is CostumeCon this year? > > It's in Toronto, Canada. ----------------------- Date: Sat, 4 Mar 1995 10:56:44 -0800 (PST) From: Gwen Carnegi Subject: Re: Dyeing book It seems to me that the problem is how to dye a large quanity of fabric a consistant color. Good thing you only need it ivory or cream. I'm not sure where you are located but you could try looking for a dye house. I used to buy cotton brochades in gastly colors (puce;-) and then send them to a local dye house to "piggy-back" on another dye lot which would often be free or almost free. Full price for 20yds or so for deep red or black would be about $25.00 for the process. The piggy back process was about $10.00. Or free if they owe you favors like sending them business! The drawback to "piggy-backing" is that the color make not be as deep as you'd like (most of the dye is in the prior process) and the wait for them to get around to your color. I've waited a month and a half for a deep charcoal. The really good thing about send out for color is that they use dye that will work even on finished goods and that your hands can stay the color they are supposed to be!;-p Remember to have them do a swatch so you can OK the color. Good Luck- Gwyn (seriously catching up on my mail) ----------------------------------------------------------- | Gwyn Carnegie | "If tea-dying is to costumers what duct tape is| | gcarnegi@netcom.com | to fighters, then .....(to be continued)" | ------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------- Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 00:18:56 -0500 (EST) From: "K.C. Kozminski" Subject: Re: Re[2]: dyeing white to ivory Hi, If you prefer a brown shade to a reddish shade- use coffee, it's a little more color fast (and it smells great while you're dying!). KC (wake up and smell the cloth dying!) Don't think of it as aging, think of it as "Attaining Mythic Stature" kc/Roen who is, herself ----------------------- Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 00:46:18 -0500 (EST) From: "K.C. Kozminski" Subject: Re: More on underwear I don't remeber the date, but I do recall Anne Miller claiming to have invented pantyhose. She said it was durring a Broadway review. She had a woman that made her stockings (can you imagine having a personal stocking maker?) that had to sew each stocking by hand into her dance trunks. When this proved to be too time-consuming, because she had to replace the individual stockings evertime they ran, Ms. Miller suggested making them up like dancer's tights. Has anyone else heard this story? KC Don't think of it as aging, think of it as "Attaining Mythic Stature" kc/Roen who is, herself ----------------------- From: Staylace@aol.com Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:21:27 -0500 Subject: Responses being ignored I have been subscribing to this list now for a few weeks. It occurred to me that my respones to postings have never been posted. I thought it might have been the fact that I was not quoting the sentences to which I was responding (I am new to the I-net) and began doing so. Still....no postings. Perhaps you can be so kind as to offer a suggestion? I wish to participate, but, the way thing are going, I might as well unsubscribe. ----------------------- From: LDeirdre@aol.com Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:21:27 -0500 Subject: re: dyeing and dyeing book My experience with dyeing has been mostly with yarn and fibers using commercial dyes. I have had the best luck using procion mx dyes with cellulose fibers (cotton and rayon mainly) and protein fibers (silk, wool and angora). Procion may be used to dye fabric and even wood and paper. Since it is a fiber reactive type dye, using cold water (or a very short simmer in some recipes) and time rather than heat; I feel it is safer to use than many natural dyes that require chemical mordants and high temperatures. Cooler temperatures are important for fibers such as silk since the silk protein will begin to denature (cook) and change texture if kept in hot water. Procion is safer for the dyer since steaming pots of dye materials puts chemicals into the air as well as the fibers. I wear a mask and gloves when mixing the dry dye powders only. If the same water source is used (water can make a big difference in the shade of color obtained due to the minerals it has) the colors are more likely to be predictable. Protein fibers need an acid ph to accept the colors, while cellulose needs an alkaline, therefore, the recipe I use differs with the fiber type. My source for procion is Dharma Trading Co. They sell a variety of dyes and clothing blanks by mail. To get a catalog free that includes color charts for the procion dyes, call 1-800-542-5227. My favorite dye book is: Synthetic Dyes for Natural Fibers by Linda Knutson, Interweave Press ($12), ISBN 0-934026-23-8. Interweave's toll free number is: 1-800-645-3675. This book contains not only recipes for all the major types of dyes, but also more technical information on how and why dyes work. The author presents the information in a factual manner, and does not appear to bias the text with her personal opinions. L Deirdre ----------------------- Date: Sun, 05 Mar 95 19:02 EST From: "Deborah L. Barlow" Subject: Re: what's relevant Although I'll admit to being a little put off at finding close to 200+ postings a week on my e-mail account every week since I joined this list, I have also read nearly every single message with interest. Part of the original purpose of "discussion lists" like this is for just that--DISCUSSION. Granted, when exchanges seem to become strictly two-sided, it would be nice if the parties involved took it up privately, but otherwise, I appreciate the knowledge I've gained. One suggestion: It would be nice if everyone would put something descriptive in the subject line. Blanks or repititions of the senders name aren't particularly helpful to those who would like to skim through. Another suggestion: You can also sign on to get JUST the capsulated version of the list. Just some thoughts, Debbie B. (dbarlow@clemson.edu) ----------------------- Date: Sun, 05 Mar 95 19:43 EST From: "Deborah L. Barlow" Subject: Re: Cordwainers The OXFORD ENGLISH DICTIONARY (1971 ed.) says the "cordwain" is "Spanish leather made originally at Cordova, of goat-skins tanned and dressed, but afterwards frequently of split horse-hides; ... much used for shoes, etc. by the higher classes during the Middle Ages." A "cordwainer" is defined as "A worker in cordwain or cordovan leather; a shoemaker. Now obs. as the ordinary name, but often persisting as the name of the trade-guild or company of shoemakers, and sometimes used by modern trades unions to include all branches of the trade. I know a cordwainer in the Cincinnati area who absolutely bristles at being called a cobbler. Go figure. Debbie B. (dbarlow@clemson.edu) ----------------------- Date: Sun, 5 Mar 1995 16:49:47 -0800 From: Chris Laning Subject: Elizabethan Bodice Question To-HC@ Sunday, March 5, 1995 I wore my Renaissance Faire costume to a gathering last weekend with the "latest revisions" to my bodice, which I am trying to get to fit properly. I think I've *finally* got the back waistline right; I made it too long-waisted in back to begin with and have had to take off nearly two inches. However, after all that, the bodice (and its underlying corset; they're tied together) STILL rides up. It fits just fine when I'm standing, but after I've been moving around in it, standing, sitting, bending & so forth for a while, I notice that it's been creeping up, that the front neckline is too high and that the tops of the bodice armholes are standing in mid-air as much as an inch above my shoulders. AArrrrgggghhhhh! Shortening the bodice back waist has helped considerably, but it hasn't solved the whole problem. I think that part of the trouble is that I didn't fit the bodice, or the corset I wear under it (Standard Elizabethan Model with spring-steel bones) correctly to my waistline in the first place. I think I fitted them to what I *feel* is my waistline, i.e. just above the tops of my hip bones, when my *real*, functional waistline (i.e. the place where I bend) is actually about half an inch higher. It's also possible that, since I am the classic Pear Shaped Female (and, to my embarrassment, about twenty pounds overweight), that the extra, um, "fluff" in my hips or stomach is pushing the corset up when I sit down. Yes, I know I could just re-do the tops of the armholes to take the extra length out there. I've been hoping to avoid that, first of all because it also means re-doing the shoulder "wings," and more important because that leaves the front neckline and the bottoms of the armholes riding higher than I would like. I am wondering if the corset is the real problem, and if so, if (1) narrowing the point of the corset in front to allow more "stomach room," and/or (2) just taking an inch off the bottom of the corset all around, or maybe just over the hips, will solve the problem. I've been trying to avoid altering the corset because it's such a pain to take all the bones out and shorten them (tin snips, file, plastic dip, etc.). Another possibility is that I need to develop different posture habits for this clothing. I tend to slump forward when I'm sitting and concentrating on something (needlework for instance), and it's possible that that's pulling the bodice up. But it's tied to my skirt both back and front, so I'd think it would move back down again when I straighten up. Is it laced too tight? Any helpful suggestions? ____________________________________________________________ O "Mistress Christian," a.k.a. Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ ----------------------- Date: Sun, 05 Mar 95 20:07 EST From: "Deborah L. Barlow" Subject: Re: Origin of Bra My understanding is that he IMPROVED UPON the existing bras for Miss Russell, not invented them as a form of support. He utilized his background in aeronautics engineering--streamlining, aerodynamics, etc. I believe reference is made to this in that Life issue to which someone referred earlier (but my copy is at home, so I'm not sure). Debbie B. (dbarlow@clemson.edu) ----------------------- End of Volume 251 -----------------------