From: Gretchen Miller Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 18:25:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 253, 3/13/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 253, March 13, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: ISO: Internet costuming information Potential solution to possible list problem Felting/fulling wool Fitting Elizabethan bodice/corset Sources for girdles Question: Fitting Victorian corset Sheep varieties in the US ISO: Pictures of zoot suits Tea dying Nature of silk in the middle ages/renaissance Purpose of the list Folkwear review Silk growing in USA Question and answer: Dresses documented from Lucas Cranach Wintersilk catalogue info ISO: Assam tea and 1890's men's collar construction details Questions: Sewing a smooth curved hem, and fitting a backlaced dress ----------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 12:36:26 -0800 (PST) From: "Jill P. Hoddick" Subject: Costume info on internet I was given this address by Richard Davis at Western Oregon State College. My problem is that being a new computer person, I'm not sure what to do with it! I am the Costume Designer at the University of Portland, Portland, Oregon. If you can give me instructions, I am interested in finding out what is available on internet concerning design, construction, rentals, problem solving, resources,networking, etc. I also have a Graduate Assistantship in Costume Design available for Fall l995 - we have a 3 yr MFA program. I would love to get this message out (details and deadlines). Thanks in advance for your time and interest. Jill Hoddick. My email address is hoddick@uofport.edu ----------------------- From: "Edward J. Zeitler" Subject: Re:Responses being ignored Date: Mon, 6 Mar 95 16:10:48 EST Staylace@aol.com wrote: >I have been subscribing to this list now for a few weeks. It occurred to me >that my respones to postings have never been posted. I thought it might have >been the fact that I was not quoting the sentences to which I was responding >(I am new to the I-net) and began doing so. Still....no postings. Are you using "Reply to" when you send your responses? I did this on a different list and found that my responses were not going through either. If you look at the header for the messages in this group you will notice a line "Return-Path: ". It could be that the mail program you are using sends replies to this address instead of h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu. Since my initial failure I do all my posts, both original and replies, using "Mail Message" and put in the relevant lines from the original post manually Hope this helps ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Edward J. Zeitler + Keep your worries behind you, + + zeitler@bnlls1.nsls.bnl.gov + so you can see what's before you. -Nektar + +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ----------------------- Date: Mon, 06 Mar 1995 17:23:52 -0500 From: Beverly Roden Subject: RE:Felting > You can use comercially aviable wool(Yarn & stuff), but you wont >get the same type of results as if you felt from the fleece. As far as >to the types of wool that you want you are looking for a type of sheep >that produces a long-staple hair strand. This means that you want a wool >sheep as apposed to a meat sheep. Currently in the USA it is difficult >to find pure bred wool sheep. Look in the back of spinning and weaving >magazines, they want the same type of wool that we felters do. Or check >at your local weaving shop(if your lucky enough to have one of those >aviable). If you don't live close to a shop there are many that will >ship. One of the best that I know of is in Lubbock, Texas and is called >Beck's Warp-n-Weave, They have almost any type of weaving supplies that >you can think of and are very helpful people over the phone.(I dont have >there address any more but you should be able to get it over the phone >from directory assitance). > If all this fails check with your local extension service agency >or the Local 4-h club. Even in large cities they are out there but you >may have to do some looking. I got one of the finest fleeces I ever >worked with from a 4-h'er who said you really want this stuff and gave it >to me for free. > I hope that this helps >--Kathy B >--Katrinn The above statement about there being no pure-breed wool sheep in the US is in error. There are many sources for wool sheep such as Corridale, Merino (both excellent spinning and felting fibers) and just about every breed you could care to name. If you are having problems finding wool, find a copy of Shuttle, Spindle and Dyepot - the magazine of the Handweavers guild of America, or Handwoven, which is produced by Interweave Press. Both magazines have extensive lists of local guilds and suppliers where you could buy everything from fleeces to finished cloth. If you still have problems with felting or getting fleece, please contact me directly at ac508@dayton.wright.edu and i will endeavor to find a contact source in your area. Beverly Roden ac508@dayton.wright.edu ----------------------- From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Mon, 06 Mar 95 17:33:30 EST Subject: Re: Elizabethan Bodice Question Chris Laning asks about her corset, and therefore her bodice riding up. First of all, both could be too big. If a corset is loose, it tends to migrate. You shouldn't turn blue when it's laced, but you should know it's there. If you put your arms above your head and your bosom slips out of plcce, your corset is too loose. Secondly, it still might be too long, especially on the sides. Those Elizabethan corsets are short little things. Mine hits me about at the navel in front, and at waist length all around, and it just sits there. Hope this helps Kathleen (Mistress Alyson of Islay) kathleen@anstec.com ----------------------- From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Mon, 06 Mar 95 17:25:36 EST Subject: Re[2]: More on underwear For Suzanne, who asks about costuming people in girdles for the proper period look. For more modern garments, try thrift shops, Salvation Army and Goodwill stores. It's amazing what you can find there. Vintage clothing shops frequently have period undergarments for not a lot of money. Yard sales, estate sales, etc. are also places to get old undergarments. I'm sure there are people on this net who can supply you with more information. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ----------------------- Date: Mon, 06 Mar 95 16:21:19 PDT From: Gail DeCamp Subject: Re[2]: Elizabethan Bodice Question The recent thread on elizabethan bodices and corsets prompted me to ask this question. When I wear my 1860's corset (made from a past patterns pattern) it rides down. The pattern instructed me to make bone casings that don't go all the way down to the lower edge of the corset--they stop 2 or 3" above the bottom edge. (I'm using spring steel bones and cotton duck, as the pattern instructs.) Wouldn't you know it, it wrinkles in the bottom 2-3" when it rides down. It pinches, too. Ouch. My questions are: 1) Is the pattern mistaken? (The Past Patterns pattern was drafted from an original 1860's corset. Presumably, they got the positions and lengths for the bones from there. I have a hard time believing that some woman wore a corset that rode down and pinched her every day. 2) Or is my body temperamentally unsuited for a corset? (We had to do moderate amounts of fitting for it to work. (The pattern says you can fasten it in front, yourself, using the spoon busk. It requires myself and a strong helper a minimum of 15 minutes' fussing to do this.) It also laces up the back. 3) I blush to admit that I have been using the corset and a pair of drawers as a bottom layer (next to my skin). (The camisole or whatever-it's-called is on my Make Next list. I promise.) Does that intermediate layer help keep the corset from misbehaving, or does it only keep you comfortable? I suspect that the answer is "rip out the old bone casings and put new bones in that go all the way to the bottom edge". Or would lacing it tighter solve this? Thanks for the help Gail DeCamp decampg@smtplink.ngc.com ----------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 19:28:00 -0400 (EST) From: dbrowne Subject: Sheep I did not mean to indicate that pure bred wool sheep where not aviable in the US, but that they where more difficult to find than meat sheep and cross breeds. I have gotten my hands on some wonderful corridale and morino fleeces, but on a whole they are harder to come by and much more expensive. I hope that this is a better explination. Of what I was trying to say. --Kathy B --Katrinn P.S.Beverly are you Alexis? ----------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Mar 95 17:22:57 PST From: susanf@EERC.Berkeley.Edu (Susan Fatemi) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 247, 3/6/95 Query: Can anyone give me a bibliographic reference for "zoot suits" with *pictures*?? (Well, it's historic) Re: dyeing with tea. the bathtub idea sounds good--I've seen the "tea dye" packets at the fabric store--don't know if it works better than real tea. Let us know what happens!! Re: Medieval silk...from what I've seen, pictures and a few museum pcs., and read, a lot of iit would have been a heavy twill with designs woven in--I'm not sure of the technical term for this, maybe damask?? A lot of the silks that made it to Europe were woven in Byzantium and the middle east, exp. the Mamluk workshops in Egypt, Syria (hence damask) and Sicily. I think (not sure) the first silk-weaving workshops in Europe were in Italy and Spain. Also imported from Persia. The one that have survived were mostly figured silks, either floral or figurative designs. It's rather amusing to see ecclesiastical garments with Koranic inscriptions on them, but the church would have been given precious fabrics by pious donors. I, too, have seen late medieval /early Ren. chasubles from Italy and Spain in the most exquisite silk velvet, with silver lace and elaborate embroidery (good old nuns!) there would have been brocades, too, of course. There might have been lighter wt. silks too, esp. for undergarments? linings? but less likely to have survived. Also, I wouldn't say that silk was "popular" except among the wealthiest. I think I read somewhere that silk was literally worth it's wt. in gold. Plain folks wouldn't have had it. Please, Kathleen, post iinfo on Wintersilks and Silk Worker's notebook> Bye for now, Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ----------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Mar 95 17:08:19 PST From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Discussing personalities > From: "cynthia" > Imagine the very sensible Mrs. Cozzins, Grande Dame of the Bay > Area English Regency Society, fan of Jane Austin, paragon of > virtue, emblem of motherhood and flower of feminity confessing to > mini-skirts. What is the purpose of this message? Is it unusual to be a parent? It is remarkable (at least as regards members of h-costume) to be a member of the Regency Society or the Jane Austen Society? Is it surprising that a member of reenactment groups leads an active life outside those groups? Or that she (or he) wears whatever styles are currently fashionable to participate in nonreenactment activities? Are these facts sufficiently interesting to be explicitly called to the attention of the (I assume) several hundred members of the h-costume list? Most of whom are not personally acquainted with the woman in question. And all of whom presumably subscribed because they want to discuss historic costume. Not to publicly exchange (not even very exciting) gossip about other members. This may well be one of those cases where an innocently meant message comes off as offensive, since e-mail readers cannot see facial expressions, hear tones of voice, etc. But I think it would be wiser not to discuss the personalities of list members at all. Fran Grimble ----------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Mar 95 17:55:00 PST From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Corsets and patterns I made the Past Patterns 1860s corset according to directions and have had no problems wearing it. Since corsets add about 2 in. to my waist measurement (the busk and boning definitely take up fabric) I fit the muslin exactly to my natural shape and let the gap in the made-up corset form the "spring" or opening between the laced edges. This gap is supposed to be about 2 in. This way of fitting is comfortable while giving a period look--a lot of which resides in the stiffness of the corset and the bust shape it gives, not in tight lacing. When hoops were worn the Victorians did not tight lace as much as later in the century. You can see this in surviving garments, many of which have a comfortable fit. I always wear a chemise under a corset, though I make mine out of handkerchief linen, which is finer than the linen used in the mid 19th century. I'd think it would be uncomfortable without the chemise, and sweat is harder to clean off a corset. If the back laces are adjusted properly it is possible to use the busk to unclasp and reclasp the corset. However, after a while the cord (actually a boot lace) seems to stretch or slip and needs relacing to fit. For anybody who made a corset that doesn't fit, I'd recommend studying the problems, than making a new corset that doesn't have those problems. I haven't tried refitting a corset, but I'd think it would take about as much time as making one. I had to remake the Past Patterns late 19th-century corset (not the S-shaped Edwardian one, which I haven't tried). It was either drafted for large hips or they expected you to tight lace enough to squeeze waist level flesh into the hip area. I've been off the net for a little while, but since I think pattern reviews are a good idea I'd like to return to the discussion of Folkwear patterns. I have not made up the Edwardian drawers pattern. However, a while back the Edwardian Underthings set was reviewed in _Cutters' Research Journal_. Their reviewer teaches costume design and has her students make up all the patterns she reviews; the reviews are very detailed. She said the petticoat and camisole fit fine, but the drawers were way too small. I have made up the Armistice blouse. It has extremely long sleeves--I shortened mine three inches and they are still a bit long. I have made up several other Folkwear patterns without any problems. However, I suspect the original Empire dress their pattern was taken from had gathering all across the bust, and that Folkwear thought this wouldn't suit modern taste. Fran Grimble ----------------------- From: Staylace@aol.com Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 06:32:59 -0500 Subject: Re: More on underwear Danine responds....... >> part of the story of ladylike comportment, << One must also remember that what might be delicately referred to as a "loose dierriere" was also proscribed on ladies of "comportment." Young ladies wore girdles to keep their rears firm, especially under tight skirts! Kindest Regards, Thomas B. Lierse Long Island Staylace Association ----------------------- Date: Tue, 07 Mar 1995 08:38:07 CDT From: donna parker Subject: RE: silk In the first half of the 19th century, when sericulture was promoted extensively in the United States, the leaves of the white mulberry were preferred to feed silk worms. It was considered the premium mulberry because it "produced fine quality silk." In western Kentucky, at the South Union Shaker colony, Shaker Sisters also fed worms leaves of the indigenous Osage orange trees surmising they were "as good for them as the white mulberry." Evidently, silkworms were (are) picky eaters and would not eat brown or seared leaves only the portion "most agreeable." The Shaker sisters in western Kentucky used their homegrown silk for scarves, men's neck kerchiefs, handkerchiefs, stocks, hatbands, bonnets, and sewing silks. Donna Parker ----------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 10:23:59 -0500 (EST) From: Christine <3cdr@qlink.queensu.ca> Subject: Lucas Cranach I've been looking at the paintings of Cranach the Elder, and was unsuccessfully trying to figure out how the dresses with the black lacing at the waist are made. These are the dresses that are often off the shoulder, full pleated skirts, and tight bodices. The laces at the waist appear to undo, but there is no sign of fasteners. The Lucretia subjects show the front falls down while the sides stay up. The back seems to be solid, no sign of entrance, same with the sides. The question of how the skirt attaches to all this is also puzzling. Any ideas? Christine ----------------------- From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Tue, 07 Mar 95 12:13:14 EST Subject: Re: Lucas Cranach Christine asks about Cranach dresses. I have seen paintings showing the back view of the dresses and they don't have backs to them either! The backs are cut as low and off the shoulder as the fronts of the gowns. Does anyone have any idea how those things stay on? The construction of the dress has always confounded me. Is it artistic license, or did 15th century German ladies know something we don't about structural engineering? Where is Howard Hughes when you need him? I assume the skirts attach like any cartridge pleated skirt. Maybe the weight of the skirts keeps the bodices from falling off the shoulders. Any idesa? Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ----------------------- From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Tue, 07 Mar 95 13:11:46 EST Subject: Re[2]: WINTERSILK Catalog To those of you who requested the address of the WinterSilks catalog, here it is again. I thought I posted it to everyone, but maybe not. WinterSilks 2700 Laura Lane, P.O. Box 620130 Middleton, WI 53562 Customer service phone # is 1-800-621-3229, M - F, 8 am to 5 pm CST Hope those who asked for it get it this time. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ----------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Mar 95 08:38:54 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) Subject: Re: Elizabethan Bodice Question Deb Baddorf writes: :Some replies, which are based on RevWar (1779) corset experience, :but should mostly apply anyway: : :I think I can safely say: if you get it properly fitted to YOUR waist :(real waist!) and then lace it rather tightly (but not uncomfortably) :your rib cage will prevent it from riding up more than a smidge. Elizabethan corsets and post 1800 corsets fit differently, because they are for different purposes. The purpose of an Elizabethan corset is to make female curves into straight lines, not constrict or make you look smaller (except by fooling the eye). Tudor and Elizabethan corsets do not have to be laced so tight you *have* to sit up straight. If properly fitted, you can even turn somersaults. They only ride up if they are too long waisted at the sides over the hips. Because they don't curve under the ribcage, the ribcage can't prevent it from riding up. Kat Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.rain.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ----------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 10:49:22 -0800 From: Alison Kondo Subject: Patterns I like the idea of continuing Folkwear reviews, since I use that company a lot. I had heard from other people who had made them that the Edwardian drawers were surprisingly small. For Empire dresses, is there another pattern company making more correct ones, if Folkwears version hgas been adapted to the modern market? Alison ----------------------- From: Lonnie D Harvel Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 14:16:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Elizabethan Bodice Question I have found when I encounter ladies with a northbound corset, that using a slight curve in the upper back corrects this. I am not sure how to describe this via email but here goes: starting at just below the shoulder blades, gentley curve the line of the corset away from the center back. The curve is VERY slight, only about 1/2 inch reduction by the time you reach the top of the corset. This raises the tension of the bodice around the upper rib cage to the same level as the waist. THIS IS FOR A MEDIEVAL CORSET! (I think it would not work well for a late 1800's style!). You might also try relaxing the ties at the bottom if you are going below your natural waist. I currently have a production of Hello Dolly up and we ran into a problem with Irene's corset which might be your problem. She has unusually large lower rib measurements. We are using a theatrical corset pattern which is very similar to a medieval pattern. Her corset kept climbing up like yours. The following tying method worked in her case with no alteration on the corset. We tightlaced the top and bottom of the corset and loose laced the middle 5 inches. We used three separate ties to accomplish this. The corset has worked well since. I will, however, agree with the previous poster, it often takes less time to build a new corset, the alter an existing one. Assuming you know what went wrong with the first one. ----------------------- From: EVANKLEY@legacy.Calvin.EDU Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 15:00:57 EDT Subject: assam tea and men' l890's high collars 1. Where does one find assam tea? 2. Does anyone know the basic construction of the high stand-up men's collar of the 1890's? (The very high collar with parallel edges, not in a V.) How wide is the band? How high is the total collar? How much larger than the neck does one cut this? We think that the stand-up because of its height must be larger than the normal neck size. Is that right? Thanks. Elaine ----------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 14:32:28 -0600 (CST) From: Deb Subject: RE: Elizabethan Corset Question vs. 1770's corset >Deb Baddorf writes: >:Some replies, which are based on RevWar (1779) corset experience, >:but should mostly apply anyway: >: > >Elizabethan corsets and post 1800 corsets fit differently, because they are >for different purposes. The purpose of an Elizabethan corset is to make >female curves into straight lines, not constrict or make you look smaller >(except by fooling the eye). > >Tudor and Elizabethan corsets do not have to be laced so tight you *have* to >sit up straight. If properly fitted, you can even turn somersaults. They >only ride up if they are too long waisted at the sides over the hips. >Because they don't curve under the ribcage, the ribcage can't prevent it >from riding up. > >Kat OK - I'll admit I haven't made an Elizabethan or Tudor corset. I'm only going by the fact that the silouette looks much similar, to my eye, to the 1770's corset. There are NO waist curves in a Rev War corset ... only in the 1800's corsets, as you mentioned. A 1770's corset aims for a conical body shape, with a straight front, back, sides, etc. However, they do draw the waist in to a tight (but still comfortable) shape, since the goal is conical. Therefore, mine is a little smaller at the waist than is my ribcage -- and therefore the ribcage keeps it from moving very much. Are you saying the Elizabethan strives for a cyllindrical shape? More or less, I mean. No smaller at the waist than at the bustline? A 1770's corset would make you sit up straight whether or NOT you lace it tightly. A "fully boned" corset leaves only stitching space between the bones, so you are boned all over. Even a "semi-boned" corset leaves only 1/2" or so between bones, per the Diderot pictures. Deb Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov ----------------------- From: cpecourt@mhv.net Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 15:37:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Hems and Back lacing dresses Hello. I have two questions. First, are they any tricks to sewing a cruved hem? Small curves seem to pose no problems, but hems that are very very long, such as cloak linign hems, that are cruved are just awful to sew. Does anyone have a trick that they use so that the hem comes out even and not all bunched and tucked? Secondly, back lacing dresses. I am having trouble getting the front of the dress to lie flat in a back lacing dress. I took a bodice pattern that fit and adapted it to a back lacing dress ( is that part of the problem?) The curved neck in front seems to stick up a bit. Do I need to take darts or something? If so where and how? Or is there a pattern out there that is designed for back lacing dresses? Thanks a bunch Chantal ----------------------- End of Volume 253 -----------------------