From: Gretchen Miller Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 19:46:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 254, 3/13/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 254, March 13, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Good tea sources Empire gown pattern recommendations Curved hems Fitting backlaced dresses Fitting the Elizabethan corset Procion dye predictability Lost clothes, 1649 Question and answerw: Roman bras Upcoming Medieval Dress and Textiles Society events (London, UK) Lucas Cranach dress, and proper posture for period clothing ----------------------- From: ehp648c@crusher.dukepower.com Subject: Excellent Tea Provider Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 16:10:11 -0500 (EST) If you're a serious tea drinker (that is, you prefer loose tea to teabags), you should get in touch with Upton Tea Imports P.O. Box 159 Upton, MA 01568 1-800-234-8327 (9-5 MF EST;9-3 Sa EST) Upton carries everything from "English Breakfast Blend" ($3.90 for 125g) to Pi Lo Chun (Green Snail Spring; a China green tea: $18.60 for 100g) to Puttabong Estate First Flush Darjeeling 1994 ($16.80 for 125g). They carry twelve different Assam teas as of the last catalog. Upton does NOT carry Twinings, Typhoo, or other prepackaged teas. The proprietors are enthusiastic, knowledgeable, and delight in suggesting new teas to try. Service is prompt and the teas are wonderful. Sipping her Huang Shan Sunset, Betsy Hanes Perry ----------------------- From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Tue, 07 Mar 95 16:48:19 EST To: Alison Kondo , h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Patterns Alison asks about other Empire gown patterns. There are other patterns out there. Try the Raiments catalog (free plug). I think I saw them there. Also, I think "Cut of Women's Clothes" has one that fastens differently from the Folkwear pattern. As to the pattern being adapted for modern tastes, I don't think so. I have a postcard from one of the clothing museums (Bath, I think) that has two Empire gowns on it, photographed front and back. They look like the Folkwear pattern. I'll check it out, since I've done a lot of dresses from that pattern. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ----------------------- From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Tue, 07 Mar 95 16:53:03 EST Subject: Re: assam tea and men' l890's high collars In reply to Elaine's query about Assam tea (I know nothing about men's high collars, so I'll let others tackle that one), you should be able to obtain it in a tea speciality shop, an oriental grocery store, a gourmet gorcery store. Where are you located? I know a wonderful tea shop in Philadelphia that carries just about everything. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ----------------------- From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Tue, 07 Mar 95 18:13:40 EST Subject: Re: Hems and Back lacing dresses For Chantal who asked about curved hems and back laced dresses. First, for curved hems, put a row or two of basting stitches in the part of the hem to be turned up. Then you can draw it up to fit flat. Press it with steam and it should lie flat and not bunch. Secondly, you should be able to use any dress pattern with a back zipper, especially a pattern that calls for a long zipper, for a back-laced dress. If the neckline in front seems to sag, you can use the above tip (for hems) and draw up the neckline onto a tighter-fitting facing. Hope this helps. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ----------------------- From: marie@caesar.quotron.com Date: Tue, 7 Mar 95 15:00:17 PST Subject: Bogus Bra inventor Diana Dills writes: I read somewhere that the bra was invented shortly before the turn of the century by a man named Otto Titzslinger (No kidding!) in Germany or Austria...anyone care to look this up, and find out if it's true or if some dressmaker was having a laugh at the expense of a gullible reporter? ------------------------------------------------------------- This story has been making the rounds for years. It is an example of British humor which caught on as truth along with the Thomas Crapper story. It is a story simply for laughs. ----------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 18:51:36 -0500 (EST) From: Elizabeth McMahon Subject: Re: Elizabethan Bodice Question On Tue, 7 Mar 1995, June Russell wrote: > Elizabethan corsets and post 1800 corsets fit differently, because they are > for different purposes. The purpose of an Elizabethan corset is to make > female curves into straight lines, not constrict or make you look smaller > (except by fooling the eye). > > Tudor and Elizabethan corsets do not have to be laced so tight you *have* to > sit up straight. If properly fitted, you can even turn somersaults. They > only ride up if they are too long waisted at the sides over the hips. > Because ****they don't curve under the ribcage****, the ribcage can't > prevent it from riding up. I'm afraid I have to disagree with this. The key to getting a 16th bodice to fit right and stay put is that there has to be support for the breasts underneath the curve of them, as well a appropriate accommodation for them at the level where you have designed/built in that they should stay. The curving is subtle, but it is essential to an accurate fit. Nor need this fitting accommodation actually be in the front of the pattern piece. The point of the Eleonor of Toledo type back cut is that this fitting room is actually in the back. But unless you are fitting someone with no bust, there is definitely a curve involved. To see what I mean, note the portrait of Catherine Howard in the greenish black dress with the puffy sleeves that's in the Toledo, Oh (or is it Detroit, MI?) Museum of Art. She is seated in 3/4 profile, and you can see very clearly the concave curve of her corsetting against her body. This curve is not extreme, but it is a feature of 16th C. corsetting. -*-*- Beth "why am I still in the office" McMahon 212-741-4400 ----------------------- From: Evewallace@aol.com Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 19:07:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Dye..procion predictability procion dyes can be made a little more predictable by taking the time to do a little structuring first. if possible, buy small amounts of as many colors as you can so you only have to do this once. set up a table where no children or pets can wreak havoc. get plastic glasses from the supermarket and set them up around the table. Make a solution of each color, adn make it the same for each one for ex 2 tbs. color, in 1/14 cups or 8 oz ofwater with 1tsp vinegar. \\take white muslin that you've washed all the sizing out of and tear into 1/2 '' wide strips. then dye 12 or however many extra of plain color. rinse clean, dry etc. then take one of each color and label it. Take your extra strips, and cross dye into one of each of the other cups. rinse, dry and LABEL. somehow working with 8 or ten colors i managed to complete this in about 2 1/2 days. then i sorted the strips by color family and used them as a color reference for several years. if you want to go completely insane you can get into mixtures of three or more colors. the key to success, as always, is good recordkeeping. but i found that working with mixtures of two that if the amounts were equal this gave pretty results. ----------------------- From: marie@caesar.quotron.com Date: Tue, 7 Mar 95 16:57:25 PST To: alana_guy@broder.com Subject: Re: Bogus Bra inventor Cc: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu YUP. It's all bogus. Created for the British version of Vaudeville. I think called a Music Hall. ________________________________________________ HEYYYY!!! My brother has a detailed book on the life of Thos. Crapper! Don't, pray don't tell me that's an urban legend. Diana Dills writes: I read somewhere that the bra was invented shortly before the turn of the century by a man named Otto Titzslinger (No kidding!) in Germany or Austria...anyone care to look this up, and find out if it's true or if some dressmaker was having a laugh at the expense of a gullible reporter? ------------------------------------------------------------- This story has been making the rounds for years. It is an example of British humor which caught on as truth along with the Thomas Crapper story. It is a story simply for laughs. ----------------------- From: Tracy023@aol.com Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 20:02:20 -0500 Subject: 17th C lost clothes For anyone interested in 17th Century English clothes, I found the following ad, which appeared in 1682 in the London Gazette. The ad is reproduced in Travel in England in the 17th Century, by Joan Parkes, a book that was published in 1925 by Oxford University Press. "Lost on Saturday the 30th of September, between eight and nine a Clock at Night, from behind a Coach, between Aldermanbury and the Turning into Love-Lane, a Hair-Trunk, with the following things in it, a sad coloured Venetian Petticoat, with a Campain Lace at the bottom; a Cherry coloured Sattin Petticoat, Laced to the top with Silver Lace; a purple and white Silk Petticoat; a pair of hair coloured Sattin Stays, Embroidered with Gold and Silver; a Venetian Mantua, hair-coloured and white, faced with black Shag; and some Linnen, marked with an S. Whoever gives notice of the said Trunk or parcel, to Mr. William Bridges Linnen-Draper, at the White Bear in Cornhill, or to Mr. Watson, Merchant in Love Lane, shall have 40s. Reward." [Note: The author believed the trunk was stolen from the coach, not lost.] Also, the book has some neat photos of paintings of individuals in 17th C English clothes appropriate to their occupation, including a wagon master and, my favorite, a night watchman with a lantern and spear. If anyone is interested in more details send me a message and I'll do my best to describe them. Tracy ----------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Mar 95 21:40:30 PST From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Empire dresses; hems; necklines Re Empire dresses: For greatest accuracy I suggest using a pattern from _Patterns of Fashion_ or _The Cut of Women's Clothes_. There are also several museum catalogs with patterns of Empire dresses. The most accessible is _Revolution in Fashion 1715-1815_ (Abbeville Press, 1989). One thing that makes me a bit dubious about the Folkwear pattern is that, at least before Taunton Press bought the company, Folkwear used to take patterns and/or ideas from several garments to get one pattern. I'm not saying this is wrong, but it means you are not getting an accurate pattern of one original. I knew the vintage clothing dealer who loaned the two dresses used for the Empire pattern. I was not permitted to examine them, so I don't know how or how much Folkwear adapted their style(s). I'm not saying it's a terrible pattern--it looks very elegant and is easy to make. I have two or three 1810s dresses at the bottom of a chest, but to tell you the truth am not sufficiently motivated to pull them out and examine them again. They are from around 1815, when the bust fitted more tightly than earlier. Re hems: The usual method of distributing fullness is to finish the hem edge (by turning under, with seam tape, or by overcasting), then run a line of machine basting near the edge. Turn up the hem the required amount and hand baste about 1/4 in. from the garment bottom to hold it in place. Cut a strip of plain brown or white paper (nothing with printing on it) slightly wider than the hem. Insert the paper between the hem and the garment. Steam press the hem till it shrinks enough (the paper keeps the garment from shrinking along with it). Then sew the hem. This would work for a neckline hem too. However, a drawstring often works wonders for a neckline that slips or gaps away from the body (low necklines often do both). Sew a narrow casing (commercial bias binding will do) to the inside of the dress and run a cord or narrow ribbon through it. This can often be done after the dress is finished (and you have discovered that you should have adjusted seams or darts when you made it). When you put on the dress, pull up the cord as much as necessary, arrange the drawn-up fullness for the best fit, tie the cord, and tuck the ends inside. Unless you have pulled up a lot of fullness, there will be no visible gathers or puckers. I use this method often for vintage garments that were made for people a slightly different size. Fran Grimble ----------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 22:41:05 -0800 From: Chris Laning Subject: Roman Bras To-HC@ Tuesday, March 7, 1995 Someone mentioned in passing seeing what looked like a bra on a lady depicted in Roman times. I don't know where I read it (my mind is like a lint trap) but I remember reading that this - - which from the description sounded more like just a covering garment than a support garment - - was an undergarment worn by all "decent" women at all times. In fact, respectable women kept it on even while making love with their husbands. It was considered quite daring and "abandoned" to take it off! Perhaps someone with good library references can track this down and see if I remember it correctly. As I recall, wherever I saw it even gave the Latin name of the garment. Of course, I would expect that like many things Roman (or Greek, Egyptian, Mycenean...) there was *not* necessarily continuity from their times up to ours. The idea of covering a sensitive (and often erotically charged) part of the body must have occurred many times. ____________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ P.S. I don't usually wear one myself, but I clearly recall finding it a necessity at summer camp, for one reason: mosquitos will cheerfully bite through a shirt, but the extra layer of bra is enough to discourage them! ----------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Mar 95 22:56:51 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) Subject: Re: Elizabethan Bodice Question I wrote; :> Elizabethan corsets and post 1800 corsets fit differently, because they are :> for different purposes. The purpose of an Elizabethan corset is to make :> female curves into straight lines, not constrict or make you look smaller :> (except by fooling the eye). :> :> Tudor and Elizabethan corsets do not have to be laced so tight you *have* to :> sit up straight. If properly fitted, you can even turn somersaults. They :> only ride up if they are too long waisted at the sides over the hips. :> Because ****they don't curve under the ribcage****, the ribcage can't :> prevent it from riding up. Elizabeth McMahon wrote: :I'm afraid I have to disagree with this. The key to getting a 16th :bodice to fit right and stay put is that there has to be support for the :breasts underneath the curve of them, as well a appropriate accommodation :for them at the level where you have designed/built in that they should :stay. The curving is subtle, but it is essential to an accurate fit. :Nor need this fitting accommodation actually be in the front of the :pattern piece. The point of the Eleonor of Toledo type back cut is that :this fitting room is actually in the back. But unless you are fitting :someone with no bust, there is definitely a curve involved. : :To see what :I mean, note the portrait of Catherine Howard in the greenish black dress :with the puffy sleeves that's in the Toledo, Oh (or is it Detroit, MI?) :Museum of Art. She is seated in 3/4 profile, and you can see very :clearly the concave curve of her corsetting against her body. This curve :is not extreme, but it is a feature of 16th C. corsetting. There is still a difference in corset construction. Even in the "called Catherine Howard" portrait, it is probably a fairly straight corset but perhaps less than fully boned (like the early 17th century corset in Janet Arnold 1560-1620 book or Norah Waugh's Corsets and Crinolines). I have very flat sillouetted corsets which curve slightly when worn. They end up looking like the portrait you mention. However, they don't curve to cup under my ribcage, nor does the one in the portrait. In the portrait it curves a little over the bustline, then straightens out just below the bust as it goes over the ribs, perhaps because it is not fully boned at the top. The corsets from the periods after this seem to be more angled in their cut and boning patterns than prior to the early 17th century (see the corsets in Nora Waugh's Corsets and Crinolines to see what I mean. I tried doing it with keyboard drawings and I don't think it really illustrated my point.). This cut makes a difference in how the corset will fit and ride up. The more zaftig the figure, the more it curves even with straight seams and straight (non-angled) boning patterns. It's no wonder they had wooden busks to use in front to prevent the front from curving like the portrait of the artist and his lady by Cornelius de Vos, and the one of Marguerite de Parma by Antonio Moro. If you are not well endowed or not firmly well endowed, it has more opportunity for creep, especially if you have not put enough waist suppression in. Waist suppression is the difference between the waist and bust measurement in the final garment. Too much suppression, you fall in, but too little and it either pushes you up too much, or rides up. However, the riding doesn't have as much opportunity if the waist is high enough over the hips at the side. (I'm beginning to wish we could all get together to compare corsets, because I have a feeling that we may be talking about apples and oranges at least in part.) Kat Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.rain.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ----------------------- From: jennyb@pdd.3com.com Date: Wed, 8 Mar 95 13:47:41 GMT Subject: Medieval dress & Textile Society News I just got my latest mailing through from the Medieval Dress & Textile Society Upcoming events are: Course on early Medieval Dress & Textiles @ Manchester University 10-11 June 95 6 sessions are: The Manchester Medieval Textiles Project, Dr Elizabeth Coatsworth & Dr Gale Owen-Crocker Rationale for current research, significance of computerisation, aims & achievements so far Textiles from Dublin, Frances Pritchard Archaeological textiles of the hiberno-viking era i.e. 10th-11th centuries Early Irish Dress, Maria Fitzgerald Evidence from sculpture & metalwork for 5th-12th century dress Anglo-Saxon dresss the textual evidence, Dr Gale Owen-Crocker Addresses general lack of info from Old English Literary texts, & where info. is found: glosses wills, texts in other languages. The Dress of the Virgin Mary Dr Elizabeth Coatsworth A look at evidence from Anglo-Saxon sculpture The Social Roots of Changes in Late Saxon Textile Production, Pippa Henry How changes in technology related to changes in society The course costs 64-50 pounds sterling for full board & tuition I have more details & application forms if anyone's interested. Upcoming MEDATS events are:- Tuesday 11th April 1995 Spring Meeting The textile Trade between Byzantium & the west: Economic & artistic exchanges This is a British Museum Lecture Saturday 20th May 1995 AGM & Summer Meeting Ritual & Celebration: Ecclesiastical Dress in the Middle Ages Saturday 21st October 1995 Autumn meeting Jousts & Pageants The meetings are held in London. If anyone wants more info. on any of the above email me at jennyb.pdd.3com.com Jennifer ----------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 09:11:38 -0500 (EST) From: "Hope A. Greenberg" Subject: Re: Elizabethan Bodice Question > the hips at the side. (I'm beginning to wish we could all get together to > compare corsets, because I have a feeling that we may be talking about > apples and oranges at least in part.) Well maybe we can. I'd be happy to set up a Web page with pictures of corsets. (I was going to add that the corsets could be on live models to show fitting or just pictured by themselves, but I don't want this to become an online Victoria's Secret catalog or encourage postings like that recent contentious note!) In fact, as there seem to be a number of people here who have created wonderful garments, I would love to start an online collection of any and all of them. What do you think? Do you have pictures that you'd be willing to send? If there's an interest I'll do it. - Hope ----------------- Hope Greenberg Hope.Greenberg@uvm.edu Academic Computing http://moose.uvm.edu/~hag Univ. of Vermont Come visit The Hall's latest addition: Burlington, VT 05405 The Ovid Project ----------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 09:34:45 -0400 (EST) From: dbrowne Subject: German gowns The last time that a similar thread was on this net I posted that the protraits of Craunch (my spelling is really bad, sorry) show a very stilted view of the human body. Notice the curve of the womens shoulders: if we were built like this we would have no clavicles. Look at the extreme length of the forearms. The artist has a preconcieved idea of the "perfect body" and this is what he has shown. Please use his ideas for gowns but an exact reproduction would be virtually impossable. I wear Italian gowns on a regular basis, and some of them are cut with very wide necks that are also very low. I have found that the secret to keeping them up envolves the patterning and my own posture. I cut the pattern so that the finished edge comes just to the outside of the point of the shoulder, just as the arm begins to curve away. This leaves a very narrow shoulder seam and sometimes even the cap of the sleeves will apear to make the shoulder as opposed to the top of a bodice. I then make sure that I stand in a period fashion. Look closely at the way that the ladies of the Italian Ren. period are portrayed, their shoulder are back and dropped, this raises the bust line and somewhat pushes out the tummy. By standing in such a maner I obtain a "period silhuette" as well as keep my dress in place. Perhaps by doing similar things the German gowns will work. --Kathy B --Katrinn ----------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 09:48:14 -0500 (EST) From: Tempest Subject: Re: Empire dresses; hems; necklines On the subject of Empire waist dresses, I have a question. I have to think about making a wedding dress, and I was considering the Empire style. (Specifically because I was watching "The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" the other night and Venus' Empire dress is just *gorgeous*! Besides, I've long been drooling over the Empire dresses in the Amazon Drygoods and Raiments catalogues, and really, really want to make one.) Anyway, how do Empire dresses work on women with large breasts? Are there other women out there with similar "fitting problems" who have successfully made such dresses and looked good in them? Cheers and thanks! Gale -- tempest@access.digex.net * "I said 'she must be swift and white * And subtly warm and half perverse "She's an animal in disguise! * And sweet like sharp soft fruit to bite, She's a mammal!" * And like a snake's love lithe and fierce.'" ----------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 09:21:29 -48000 From: Luanne Cupp Subject: Re: Lucas Cranach On Tue, 7 Mar 1995 KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM wrote: > Christine asks about Cranach dresses. I have seen paintings showing the back > view of the dresses and they don't have backs to them either! The backs are cut > as low and off the shoulder as the fronts of the gowns. Does anyone have any > idea how those things stay on? The construction of the dress has always > confounded me. Is it artistic license, or did 15th century German ladies know > something we don't about structural engineering? Where is Howard Hughes when > you need him? > > I assume the skirts attach like any cartridge pleated skirt. Maybe the weight > of the skirts keeps the bodices from falling off the shoulders. Any idesa? > > Kathleen > kathleen@anstec.com > > I work with a 16-th century German group and we have come to two conclusions re: Cranach. First, he was an artist not a tailor. He did not paint seams. Some dresses have NO visible method of closure so you have to assume details were left out or else the dress was painted on. Regarding shoulders, it's possible that the bodice DID keep falling off. Just because a dress works when you are sitting still for a portrait does not mean you are not a victim of a clumsy fashion...even if it IS the 16th century. Anyone else have ideas? Luanne ----------------------- From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Wed, 08 Mar 95 12:15:54 EST Subject: Re[2]: Bogus Bra inventor Don't tell me the book about Thomas Crapper (puportedly the inventor of the flush toilet) is "Flushed with Pride"? A few years back, some one wrote a "biography" of Captain Horatio Hornblower (one of the greatest fictional characters of the 20th century). I bought it for my father, who was a big Hornblower fan, and the clerk in the bookstore thought it was a real biography and commented on how interesting Hornblower's life wa. I didn't have the heart to tell him it was all made up. Otto Titzlinger is too good a name to be true. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it were British Music Hall humor. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ----------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 09:32:12 -0800 (PST) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Roman Bras On Tue, 7 Mar 1995, Chris Laning wrote: > Someone mentioned in passing seeing what looked like a bra on a lady > depicted in Roman times. I don't know where I read it (my mind is like a lint > trap) but I remember reading that this - - which from the description > sounded more like just a covering garment than a support garment - - was > an undergarment worn by all "decent" women at all times. The best pictorial representation of this garment is a Roman mosaic from late 3rd century Sicily showing a woman exercising (with hand-weights) wearing nothing but a pair of "bikini pants" and a strapless band around her breasts. All the descriptions I've read indicate that the latter was intended for support rather than decency (except, perhaps, in the gym where the outer garments were discarded). Heather Rose Jones ----------------------- From: LissThor@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 13:24:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Roman Bras The exercise band described is pretty much it as far Roman bras go, the only other support like garment were the leather or cloth bands they sometimes wore, you've probably seen them - they go around the body just below the breasts then cross in between and over the shoulders. As for a garment that no one took off even during sex, that doesn't ring a bell. Maybe it's christian era Rome, most Republic and Empire ladies were *not* modest in that particular way. That sort of shamefaced modesty didn't happen unitl much later. --Melissa, ex-lurker, Mom and spinner. ----------------------- End of Volume 254 -----------------------