From: Gretchen Miller Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 19:28:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 259, 3/21/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 259, March 21, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Pantyhose and miniskirts Steel corset covers Fitting a corset Victorian revisionism Fugitive dyes for period quilting Question and answer: Instructions for making/wrapping a turban Question and answer: What are "hacking vents"? ISO: Advice on fabric for 1860s day dress ----------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Mar 95 18:57:34 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) Subject: Re: Pantyhose :No one mentioned it because it didn't happen. I bought my first pair of :pantyhose in New York City (on Lexington Avenue) in 1963 or 1964. I :didn't take the last 6 inches off my skirts until 1967. By that time :you could probably have gotten pantyhose all over the country. It may have depended a great deal where you lived. I lived in Seattle, Washington. You could get girdles, garters and the hose that goes with them. However, if you could get pantyhose before 1968, it wasn't around where I was. I found my first pair in 1969 and everyone around me considered them a novelty. We had *short* skirts and still wore girdles and garters. We also wore a lot of tights prior to that, especially in cold weather, since pants were forbidden except on the once a year "senior slack" day. This was public school in both Spokane and Seattle. I suspect other people's mileage may vary. Kat Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.rain.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ----------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Mar 95 19:04:32 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) Subject: Re: Steel corset covers Thomas writes :While I certainly cannot fault you scholarly methods, I shall say that I have :seen many, many pictures of steel coset-covers in many publications (and not :just the one you mention). From where did THEY come? Computer imaging is :only recent! I, too, have seen several pictures, but they are always of the same 2 corsets. Often they are at different angles, however. Perhaps you could give us some of the names of the different books you've seen them in and we could check it out again. It is always nice to find more sources. Kat Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.rain.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ----------------------- From: Staylace@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 03:52:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Vintage list; corsets Fran wrote: >> Victorian writers did not have the benefit of the many decades of research that have been done since. << While that may be true, one must also consider that, since fewer years had intervened between the writings and the actual era, possibily many more artifacts (clothing) would have been extant. The other consideration is that, for the same reason, less revisionism would have been accomplished. Kindest Regards, Thomas B. Lierse Long Island Staylace Association ----------------------- From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 15 Mar 95 09:45:00 GMT Subject: Apologies First, an apology. I got my 40's actresses mixed up - it was Jane Russell in The Outlaw who fooled around with her bra, not Rita Hayworth - who tragically got Alzheimers. About making a corset - I'm afraid the only simple, effective way I know is with a friend - preferably one who knows what they are doing, but if not a very patient one who will take instruction! Then wear a tight-fitting teeshirt, and pin calico (US Muslin?) into the shape wanted (here is where the expertise, sense of shape required, and patience is needed!). Then take it off, tack up the seams devised, put on individual again and take off about 2" all round. Just a quick comment here. People have mentioned fabric stretch and body movement, but this seems to vary a lot, depending on the fabric used and the person. The most I have heard for 'squashing' at bust level is 4" (I don't think I squash quite that much). I have had to take nearly that amount out of a bodice after 2 weeks continuous wear - it was just too loose for comfort. Some people mentioned 1" allowance, but you may need more, depending on shape, size and how long you are wearing the garment. Someone mentioned Catherine de Medici laying down the law about lacing recently. Thinking about her career this seems highly unlikely. Let alone the sophistication of the French court by the latter half of the 16th century, by the time she was in any position for this kind of rule she was a middle aged woman who had spent most of her life bearing children at a court dominated by her husband's mistress Diane de Poitiers. She also had far more important things to think about! If you want to look at fetishistic use of costume her son, Henri III, is much more interesting! By the way, I must agree with Denise, the Victorians were useful where they produced straight reprints of texts, but their comments and unattributed quotes are worse than useless, they are misleading. My favourite example was a beautifully published book of 16th century women's clothes I came across, all based on contemporary pictures, and every single one wearing a chrinoline (as distinct from a farthingale). Yes, Elizabeth, wife of Henry VII, wearing a chrinoline, Henry VIII's wifes, all wearing chrinolines. After all, that's what a decent woman wears, don't they?! I really think we've established that steel corset covers are a red herring (or a piece of Victorian fantasy on an ill-founded basis) - and I'm getting rather bored by this line - Victorian pornography is even more boring than modern! Caroline Since writing that I have read Staylace's latest mailing. I'm sorry to be rude, but it really shows so little understanding of historical processes or techniques that I am quite shocked. History is not a value-free study, just as contemporary comments on anything are not value-free - the writer always has bias, and is trying to prove something. Even a modern historian writing on a period/place as objectively as possible is trying to prove that he is objective - which is a bias in itself (objectivity is a modern liberal virtue not even acknowledged as such by many people). I have said this before - Read the Historian, not the History! The Victorians were particularly prone to using the past to prove that their contemporary society (dominating the world) was not simply rational, just and God-ordained, but pre-figured and justified by the past. They had a world empire, so, for example, the English 16th century privateers were justified in fighting the Spanish over the New World in order to lead to the English Empire. If this is the kind of motive you have in writing a history, it tends to obscure, not clarify, what you are writing about. Modern historians are at least trying to present the past clearly, on its own terms, even though they may not succeed! Caroline ----------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 06:13:34 -0500 From: Beverly Roden Subject: Re:Wanted:fugitive dye Chris - what you might want to do is talk about the quilting in relation to embroidery - there are extant pieces which are in poor condition, and you can see the pattern drawn on the cloth - there is a reference to this in a book on embroidery written by the curator for textiles of the Museum of London (the book is loaned to a student - i can get the reference info if anybody wants it...) I can get the book and quote it, along with isbn info if there is interst... Beverly Roden ac508@dayton.wright.edu Alexis MacAlister (sca) ----------------------- From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 15 Mar 95 12:24:00 GMT Subject: Tights and stockings Just to explain the title, in the UK what I think you are calling pantihose are called tights - which is an onomatopoeic word! Anyway, although I am too young to really remember it (I was more bothered about my socks in the early - mid 60s) the period someone referred to, between skirts getting very short and tights coming in, was an appreciable period in the UK - and you can see films made in this period where this is a problem. Did minis come in in the UK earlier than the States? Caroline ----------------------- From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Tue, 14 Mar 95 15:35:43 EST Subject: Re[2]: Steel corset covers Thomas, perhaps you would be so kind as to track down some of those references to metal corset covers and put them on the list. I have only seen the one metal corset everyone else has (in "Corsets and Crinolines" and a lot of other books on the subject -- it seems to be the only one in existence). I am sure that most of the women I know wouldn't wear a steel (iron, etc.) corset unless you held a gun to their heads. I know I wouldn't. Some of us like to be relatively comfortable, and while a lot of silly fads and fashions hve occurred ove the centuries (plucking the forehead, for example), metal corset covers is one I have not encountered. Please enlighten us. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ----------------------- From: radueche@ct.med.ge.com (Renee Raduechel) Date: Wed, 15 Mar 95 09:26:19 CST Subject: Re: Apologies Concerning historians and truth, a work of fiction that illustrates the point that Caroline (csy20688@ggr.co.uk) was making is "Daughter of Time," by Josephine Tey. In it, a policeman with time on his hands becomes interested in the historical record concerning Richard III. Since so much of historical costuming is research, I hope I can be forgiven for straying a bit from the group's charter. Especially if I keep it short. Renee Raduechel radueche@ct.med.ge.com ----------------------- From: KABLAY@aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 00:34:48 -0500 Subject: MAKING OF A TURBAM THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. I'M NOT A MEMBER OF YOUR MAILING LIST BUT I'M DESPERATE FOR INSTRUCTIONS ON MAKING... TIEING... CONSTRUCTING {what ever you call it:)} A TURBAN. IF YOU COULD HELP PLEASE SEND INFO TO KABLAY@aol.com --- thank you for you help. ----------------------- From: AWILSON.ABRSCBR@anca.erin.gov.au (Wilson, Annette) Subject: Re: Wanted: Fugitive Dye Date: Wed, 15 Mar 95 17:39 Dear Chris As far as I can remember (reference books all at home) in the C16 patterns were transferred to cloth either by drawing with ink or paint (for a permanent mark to be covered by the embroidery) or by pricking the pattern and using coloured chalk to transfer the outline through the holes. I haven't ever heard of using quick-fading dyes but I suppose you could describe such a thing as "pale-coloured ink". "Hope this helps" Annette Wilson awilson.abrscbr@anca.erin.gov.au ----------------------- From: EVANKLEY@legacy.Calvin.EDU Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 13:07:03 EDT Subject: "hacking vents" Does anyone know what hacking vents are? There's a reference to this in Tom Stoppard's play "Travesties." (Carr's monologue) Thanks, Elaine ----------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 10:18:09 -0800 (PST) From: Carol Cannon Subject: Re: [SCA-WEST:989] Detailed costuming (fwd) Sigh--I merely forwarded Deirdre's msg. to a format where I thought she might get a wider response. It wasn't my question. I leave it to all of you to work it out. Sorry for the confusion. Thanks for the willingness to help.--Carol On Wed, 15 Mar 1995, Melanie Jo Schuessler wrote: > On Tue, 14 Mar 1995, Carol Cannon wrote: > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 18:06:50 -0800 > > From: Slithytves@aol.com > > > > I'm interested in detailed information on costuming..............mainly > > women's clothing....particularly dresses. If anyone knows of good books or > > publications, please email back. > > Thanks! > > Deirdre > > > > > > I'm sure you'll get this question from lots of people, but could you be a > little more specific? What period, what country, what social class, > etc.? These pointers will make it a lot easier to recommend appropriate > books. > > best of luck > Melanie > ----------------------- From: EVANKLEY@legacy.Calvin.EDU Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 13:25:20 EDT Subject: Re: MAKING OF A TURBAM > Date forwarded: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 11:45:07 -0500 (EST) > Forwarded by: Gretchen Miller > Forwarded to: Historical Costume Mailing List > From: KABLAY@aol.com > Date sent: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 00:34:48 -0500 > To: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu > Subject: MAKING OF A TURBAM > THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. I'M NOT A MEMBER OF YOUR MAILING LIST BUT I'M > DESPERATE FOR INSTRUCTIONS ON MAKING... TIEING... CONSTRUCTING {what ever you > call it:)} A TURBAN. IF YOU COULD HELP PLEASE SEND INFO TO KABLAY@aol.com > > --- thank you for you help. I just make along tube, (length & width depends on how large you want the turban to be) stuff it lightly w/ fiberfill or whatever similar something you have and begin to wind it on itself (acording to head measurement.) If this is confusing just use a hat or wig head of the correct size and wind around once & tack where it meets. Then do a second layer on top but moved to the inside so each layrer as you go up is indented. Go as high as you want your turban and sew the end inside. Sew each layer together. If this is still confusing contact me again. Elaine > ----------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 13:50:36 -0500 (EST) From: "Karen K. Adams" Subject: Fabric advice appreciated I am making an 1860's day dress to wear to re-enactments. I don't plan to make it very fancy, mainly for practical reasons, as we plan to camp out. However, I don't intend it to be a work dress either, as, aside from cooking, I don't plan to do be doing much nitty-gritty work. I plan to wear a 120" hoop, except when working around the campfire, in which case I will probably just remove the hoop for safety reasons. I'm using two Period Impressions patterns -- the cartridge pleat skirt and the skirted day bodice. The advice I am seeking concerns my choice of fabric. There are two fabrics I've found, but can't decide between them. One is a moderately heavy 100% cotton. The color is indigo and the best way I can describe it is damask or jaquard, as it has a flowered pattern woven into the fabric, all one color. I like this fabric because I think it will be relatively cool and the color is beautiful and suits me well. The other is 50% cotton, 50% acetate and has a silk or taffeta look (sort of shiny with watermarks). The color is a blue-gray or slate blue. It has a very authentic feel, but I'm not as in love with the color and I'm afraid it will be very hot as it is not all natural fibers. Does anyone out there know if I'm on the right track, as far as authenticity goes? I know that 100% silk would be very authentic, but that's out of the question with the yardage I'm using. Which fabric should I go with? Any ideas? Thanks for your help. Karen ----------------------- From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Wed, 15 Mar 95 14:17:40 EST Subject: Re: "hacking vents" In regard to Elaine's query on hacking vents, I would like to know the context of the reference. Hacking jackets are riding jackets, and I assume that hacking vents are the vents (i.e., slits or pleats) in the jacket, either center back or side. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ----------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Mar 95 11:08:58 PST From: "cynthia" Subject: re: Roman unmentionables Alana_Guy> I hate to sound prurient, but, well, I am. How can you tell? Is there an inscription, or is she wearing a garter belt or holding a handful of coins? I'm not asking this question to embarrass you, so you really don't need to go into graphic detail as to what they're doing. Alana, I mis-remembered. The woman wasnt a prostitute, but merely a servant. _The History of Private Life_, (ISBN 0-674-39974-9) vol 1, p.203 has a fresco of a woman wearing nothing but the bandeau. Her hair is rather elaborately coiffed in loops. The couple depicted are clearly about to make love. The caption reads: "Pompeii, so-called Centenary House. Painting found in an out-of-the-way room of a house whose decoration ranks among the finest in Pompeii. For reason of modesty the servant has not removed her final layer of clothing. (Naples, Archeological Museum)" Here's the commentary: "What were the marks of the true libertine? A libertine was a man who violated three taboos: he made love before nightfall (.. a privilege accorded to newlyweds on the day after the wedding); he made love without first darkening the room (the erotic poets called to witness the lamp that had shown on their pleasure); and he made love to a woman who had removed every stitch of clothing (only fallen women removed made love without their brassieres, and paintings in Pompeii's bordellos showed even prostitutes wearing this ultimate veil)." --Paul Veyne David D> Oh, and I don't believe that business about bandeaus. There is just no evidence. You can find the excercise mosaic in the same book, p.249. The commentary under the picture reads: "Mosaic at Piazza Armerina, first half of 4th century. These ladies, whose attire barely preserves their modesty, are featured in a spectacle intended to titillate." David, you'll just have to hunt up your own citations among the erotic poets ... --cin Cynthia@caere.com "If you rebel against high heels, take care to do so with a very smart hat." --George Bernard Shaw ----------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Mar 95 13:57:51 EST From: (David W. Rickman) Subject: ...no subject... Dear Chris, Regarding your inquiry into a fugitive dye to mark a cotton quilt, shouldn't you be asking yourself first why you are making a cotton quilt for the Renaissance era? After all, while cotton was around in that era, it was pretty rare compared with wool and linen. I have an 18th century quilt made mostly of a green colored glazed wool. I am pretty ignorant when it comes to the history of quilts, but most of the earliest quilts I've seen, are "whole cloth" quilts, made by seaming the selvedges of the same colored fabric together, stuffing, then quilting. Most of these early quilts were of wool or linen, stuffed with unspun wool, I should think. There are some wonderful books out on the history of quilts and quilting. Perhaps you could find an actual Renaissance quilt, if one exists, or one of the earliest known quilts and replicate it in the proper fabric, rather than cotton. Perhaps a quilter can tell you how to transfer your design without using ink. My quilt shows no signs of ink or other marking for the design. Good luck! David drickman@state.de.us ----------------------- End of Volume 259 -----------------------