From: Gretchen Miller Date: Fri, 24 Mar 1995 11:33:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 260, 3/24/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 260, March 24, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Hacking vents Fugitive dyes for period quilting Enough on steel corset covers Fabric advice for reenactors More opinions on combining h-costume and vintage Anglo-Saxon costume book Origins of mini-skirts Price of silk vs acetate/blend Cordwainers ISO:18th C wigs and wigmaking techniques Construction of 1890's men's high collars ISO: Appropriate underwear for 18thC court dress ----------------------- From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Wed, 15 Mar 95 14:43:07 EST Subject: hacking vents Elaine asked about hacking vents. My message was returned as undeliverable, so I am putting it out again. What is the context of the reference? A quote would help. A hacking jacket is a riding jacket. I assume hacking vents are the jacket vents (the slits or pleats) either at center back or on the sides. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ----------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Mar 95 14:25:41 EST From: (David W. Rickman) Subject: re: Roman unmentionables Hello Cynthia, Regarding Roman brassieres, I stand (quite thoroughly) corrected. Thanks! David ----------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 14:44:13 -0500 (EST) From: dbrowne Subject: re:fugitive dye Almost any berry produces a dye that is not color fast, though theye may leave a stain that is hard to remove. Try saying that you are using a in period berry (here's another chance to talk about mulberries:-)). Probably the most commonly seen ways of transfering a pattern was to prick the pattern and dust colored chalk or soot on to it. I have tried this and it is very difficult to maintain the pattern for any length of time or from excerssive handling. I have found that the best way if not the most practical is to mark small segments at a time, do the work on them and then remark the next time. Ubfortunatly it leads to off set patterns if you are not very careful. The other way of marking was to lightly draw the pattern with a light ink. --Kathy B. --Katrinn ----------------------- From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Wed, 15 Mar 95 15:06:28 EST Subject: Re: Fabric advice appreciated Karen, if you are going to be around a campfire at all, choose the 100% natural fabric. The other, if it catches fire will melt onto your body. Not nice, I've seen what melted fabric can do. This is just from a practical point of view, as any re-enactor will tell you. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ----------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 14:54:43 -0500 (EST) From: dbrowne Subject: My 2 cents I truly enjoy this net but I find that the discussion of corsets (not the construction of) but rather the discussion of some of the preconcieved notions concerning corsetry are not appropriate. Please keep your fantasies to your self as I will keep mine to me. I also feel that the addition of adds for vintage clothing would be a BIG mistake. There are lots of us that appreciate the comments on 18 & 19c. clothing and the discussion on pantyhose is fascinating, but there are a lot of us who prefer the early (pre-1600's) stuff. Now if you offer that vintage clothing... Sorry for the vent. --Kathy B. --Known in the SCA as T.H.L. Katrinn Astrid Dagsdatter,CIM,CST,CSC ----------------------- From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Wed, 15 Mar 95 15:11:43 EST Subject: Re: Books etc. for Anglo-Saxon costumes? For Kimberly Wegner who asked about Anglo-Saxon clothing. I have not seen a response from anyone, and I assume this has been discussed previously. In any case, here is a reference for you. I've found it to be a good one, although pricey to buy. Check a good library. Gale R. Owen-Crocker: Dress in Anglo-Saxon England 1986, Manchester U. Press ISBN 0-71900-1818-8 Hope this helps. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ----------------------- From: Title-L@smtpgw.nctsw.navy.mil Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 16:09:50 -0500 Subject: Re: "hacking vents" I'll hazard a guess, as a horsewoman: "hacking" in English riding means riding on trails or across country (there's an entire set of horseshow classes for "hunter hacks", horses chosen for style, comfort and safety on such trips, both over low jumps and "on the flat"); could "hacking vents" refer to the vents/pleats in the back of a fitted jacket back designed to allow the arms to move far forward, as when allowing the horse its head over rough ground or jumps? my two "bits" worth, this time Lynn mice, beef jerky and fabric do mix, but not in the same drawer... ----------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 13:46:11 -0800 (PST) From: Kerstin Nelson Subject: Re: Tights and stockings On 15 Mar 1995, Mrs C S Yeldham wrote: > Just to explain the title, in the UK what I think you are calling pantihose > are called tights - which is an onomatopoeic word! > > Anyway, although I am too young to really remember it (I was more bothered > about my socks in the early - mid 60s) the period someone referred to, > between skirts getting very short and tights coming in, was an appreciable > period in the UK - and you can see films made in this period where this is > a problem. Did minis come in in the UK earlier than the States? > > Caroline > I always thought they were a UK invention. Mary Quant, Twiggy, and all of that but my memory is fuzzy. Kerstin khn42@rain.org ----------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 17:10:25 -0500 (EST) From: Elizabeth McMahon Subject: Re: Fabric advice appreciated On Wed, 15 Mar 1995, Karen K. Adams wrote: > > Does anyone out there know if I'm on the right track, as far as > authenticity goes? I know that 100% silk would be very authentic, but > that's out of the question with the yardage I'm using. Have you priced silk vs. the acetate blend? I've found in most of the fabric stores that I've been in lately (although I admit to being fabric-store-blessed, unlike many who have here lodged complaints) are actually charging less for 100% silk, especially in the lighter weights, than the cost of blends such as you describe, which are often heavily engineered designer fabrics. In fact, I generally pay less for silk than for wool, and definitely than for linen. BTW, acetate is actually chemically the same composition as cotton, although it is an engineered and extruded fiber (as opposed to its fibers coming off of a plant or animal, as do cotton, linen, silk, and wool.) -*-*- Beth in the office 212-741-4400 ----------------------- From: Elizabeth Ackert Subject: Cordwainers Date: Wed, 15 Mar 95 17:11:47 EST On February 24, 1995 Jim O'Connor posted a message about Cordwainers to this list. Al Saguto, who was quoted in that posting, has asked me to send the following text in full: "The term "cordwainer" is an Anglicization of the French word cordonnier, introduced into our language after the Norman invasion of England in 1066. The word itself is derived from the city of Cordoba, in the south of Spain, a stronghold of the mighty Omeyyad Kalifs until its fall in the 12th century. Moorish Cordoba was celebrated for two staple trades in the early Middle Ages, silversmithing and the production of cordouan (cordovan) leather, called "cordwain" in England. Originally made form the skin of the Musoli goat, then found in Corsica, Sardinia, and elsewhere, this leather was "tawed" with alum after a method supposedly known only to the Moors. English Crusaders brought home much plunder and loot, including the finest leather the English shoemakers had ever seen. Gradually cordouan, or cordovan leather became the material most in demand for the finest footwear in all of Europe. The English term cordwainer, meaning a shoemaker, first appears in 1100. By the late 13th century a distinction grew in England between Cordwainers, proper, called alutarii, who used only the alum "tawed" cordwain, and another class of shoemakers called basanarii, who employed an inferior "tanned" sheepskin, prohibited for footwear apart from long boots. Since this period the term cordouan, or cordovan leather, has been applied to several varieties of leather. Today cordovan leather is a "vegetable tanned" horse "shell", and like the Medieval cordwain is used only for the highest quality shoes. Since the Middle Ages the title Cordwainer has been selected by the shoemakers themselves, and used rather loosely; however, generally it refers to a certain class of shoe and boot-makers. ... One distinction preserved by Cordwainers since the earliest times is, that a Cordwainer works only with new leather, where a Cobbler works with old. Cobblers have always been repairers, frequently prohibited by law from actually making shoes. ... Whenever shoemakers have organized, they have shown a clear preference for the title "Cordwainer", conscious of the distinguished history and tradition it conveys." >From: The Honourable Cordwainers' Company, by Al Saguto For more information, please contact Al Saguto via snailmail (he is not yet on the Internet) as follows: Al Saguto, Historic Trades Colonial Williamsburg Foundation P.O. Box 1776 Williamsburg, VA 23187-1776 I take full credit/blame for any typographical errors in the text as it appears, and thank you in advance for your understanding. -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Liz Ackert (eackert@leo.vsla.edu) + + Public & Information Services Librarian + + Colonial Williamsburg Foundation Library + + 415 North Boundary St./P.O. Box 1776 + + Williamsburg, VA 23187-1776 + + Phone (804) 220-7419 FAX (804) 221-8902 + ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ----------------------- From: Elizabeth Ackert Subject: Wigs and Wigmakers in the 18th century Date: Wed, 15 Mar 95 17:23:04 EST The following post is submitted for a colleague who is not yet on the Internet: The staff of the Wigmaker Shop at Colonial Williamsburg is seeking new information on 18th-century wigs, perukes, barbering, and other hair-related matters. If you have information about actual 18th-century wigs/perukes which the staff can study and document, this would be exceedingly valuable. Of particular interest are wigs made in America and England. Tools of the wigmaking and barbering trades (18th-century, of course) are also sought for study. Finally, references to books, articles and other publications on the subjects listed above would also be welcome. Please respond via snailmail to: Marilyn Wetton, Historic Trades Colonial Williamsburg Foundation P.O. Box 1776 Williamsburg, VA 23187-1776 Posted by: -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Liz Ackert (eackert@leo.vsla.edu) + + Public & Information Services Librarian + + Colonial Williamsburg Foundation Library + + 415 North Boundary St./P.O. Box 1776 + + Williamsburg, VA 23187-1776 + + Phone (804) 220-7419 FAX (804) 221-8902 + ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ----------------------- From: Staylace@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 17:45:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Steel corset covers Kat and Denise inquire as to further pictures of steel corset [covers]. I am surprised that you feel there has been only one or two of such in books. Whiler I recall more, and am not sure of which specific one or two you speak, I will list a couple of sources that show at least four: Kunzle's "Fashion and Fetishism" shows one (disregard the 1930's "reproduction"), and that one, plus another, is in "Freaks of Fashion". Two additional ones are pictured in Michael Colmer's "Whalebone to See-Through (A History of Body Packaging), first published in 1980. Elizabeth Ewing features yet another variation in "Dress and Undress), first published in 1978. Anyway, that is more than one or two, and they are definitly distinct. I do not tout myself a scholar in these matters and only report the publications in which they are displayed. I leave it to others to determine their authenticity. I just like looking at them! Kindest Regards, Thomas B. Lierse Long Island Staylace Association ----------------------- Subject: 1890's high collars Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 16:48:21 -0600 (CST) From: Shirley Matheis ^ Does anyone know the basic construction of the high stand-up ^ men's collar of the 1890's? (The very high collar with parallel ^ edges, not in a V.) How wide is the band? How high is the total ^ collar? How much larger than the neck does one cut this? I may be responding to your query too late for your purposes, but for what it's worth-- Whenever I've need those high collars, I've made them separate from the shirts. That way the shirts can be used with a variety of collar styles. In fact, according to Norah Waugh in "The Cut of Men's Clothes," it appears that this is probably the way they were done. He says "From the middle of the century the starched collar, either worn upright or double, began to diminish in height and was worn quite narrow until the 90's when it rose steadily again and by 1896 reached three inches. There were a varirty of collar styles in the 1890's." Some of those are illustrated on p. 118. Shirley Olthuis Matheis (Weren't we in Zylstra's Shakespeare class together?) -- ----------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Mar 95 13:39:23 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) Subject: Re: Vintage list; corsets :Fran wrote: : :>> Victorian writers did not have the benefit of the many decades of research :that have been done since. << Thomas commmented: :While that may be true, one must also consider that, since fewer years had :intervened between the writings and the actual era, possibily many more :artifacts (clothing) would have been extant. The other consideration is :that, for the same reason, less revisionism would have been accomplished. That would have been true if the people writing and studying in that era had been trained the way textile historians and archeologists are now trained. Unfortunately, no matter how close they are, unless they are writing about their own time (and not going for special audiences such as those interested in the erotic), it is most likely to be close to useless. Even some things written really close to the time can be pretty useless. A good example of this is Vecellio's costume book. It was written in the 16th century about the 16th century (and some earlier times). However, only his Italian and neighboring countries have any accuracy of information. If it is more than 20 years prior to the time the book was written or in any place (such as Florida, Russia, Africa...), you can pretty well forget any accuracy. Kat Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.rain.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ----------------------- From: Staylace@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 18:20:46 -0500 Subject: Re: My 2 cents Kathy B. writes: >> I truly enjoy this net but I find that the discussion of corsets (not the construction of) but rather the discussion of some of the preconcieved notions concerning corsetry are not appropriate. << Perhaps you could cite an example, as I have seen no such discussion here. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this a place to discuss historic costume in it's entire range--construction AND history? In that process, one might discuss people's attitudes toward selected articles of clothing (inlcuding corsets), historically versus now. I don not think it productive (or appropraite) to stifle this wonderful board with paranoic inhibition. After all, the present is only history in the making--what is the present today is history tomorrow. Every minute of it. Kindest Regards, Thomas B. Lierse Long Island Staylace Association ----------------------- From: gst6710@msu.oscs.montana.edu Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 17:16:18 MST Subject: a find Gentle folk - I ran across this on a newsgroup, andI thought perhaps someone out there could give this lady some assistance. Morgan >From: swardx@aol.com (Sward X) >Subject: Period lingerie? >Hello, > This is a general message to anyone out there who might have come >across a problem like the one I am facing now. Recently, my husband came >across an old trumk that he received as a part of a larger group of items >that he had bid upon at an estate auction. Upon opening the trunk, it >contained an absolutely beautiful replica of what appears to be an >18-century European court dress. I have seen some things like it in >reference books of the period. It seems to be close to dresses that >Madame Pompadoure wore in her formal sittings. The best part is that it >fits !! The neckline is cut extremely low and square. It has a >rolled-lace edge and the fabric appears to be a lovely poder-blue brocade. > The back is full and covers the entire shoulder and neck area. > The problem is that I can not find an appropriate bra to wear with >this outfit. No lingerie or guides or instructions came with the dress, >and others have helped me to find powdered wigs, gloves, hoop skirt frames >and jewelry, but no one has an idea on a bra. Strapless won't do because >the cups show above the very low, straight-cut neckline. I can find >low-cut bras, but they are low in the center, not all across the front. > If you have had this problem before, could you please drop me a line >and let me know how you solved it? Any ideas? > >--Molly ----------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Mar 95 16:27:44 PDT From: Gail DeCamp Subject: Rule: Re[2]: Wanted: Fugitive Dye Please don't mail me. I have carpel tunnel and can't mail you back until further notice. Call me at x2879 (415-473-2879). gail ----------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Mar 95 20:54:56 PST From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Metal "corset covers" The metal objects pictured in _Corsets and Crinolines_ and other books are unlikely to be corset covers. The corset cover is an extra fabric layer to help keep perspiration off the dress fabric (it can not only cause ugly stains, but actually rots the fabric). This was much more important before electric washers and allover dry cleaning. A washable linen or cotton corset cover is very sensible; even in the 20th century I find them useful under both reproductions and vintage clothes. But a metal one full of holes would be no use at all. Also, although chemises have been worn under corsets for centuries and in the early 19th century some petticoats had attached bodices, the corset cover per se is a Victorian invention. I strongly believe the early metal corsets were for people with serious back deformities or injuries. I doubt they were common, or more would have survived--I've only seen photos of two. As for drawings, in costume books the same items are often redrawn over and over for different books to get a consistent drawing style for that book, or to avoid copyright violation. This is especially true if the item is from an early period and there are few surviving examples. Costume books also like to quote and picture extreme examples because they are entertaining to read about. I don't think it is even anatomically possible for an adult to have a 13" waist. Even a small adult; I'm 4'9" tall myself, which is a reasonable pre-20th-century female adult height, and am not overweight. I am beginning to think that a number of the small-waist myths for a variety of periods were copied out of Lord's book by people who thought he was a serious researcher, then recopied into other books. That said, I'm getting tired of iron corsets. I doubt anybody on this list would wear or construct one. Fran Grimble ----------------------- End of Volume 260 -----------------------