From: Gretchen Miller Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 18:45:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 268, 4/3/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 268, April 3, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Question and answer: Catalog info for Hedgehog Handiwork CD-ROM and market research Other metal clasp sources History of the bra Web page resources About USITT ISO: Thai Silks address More mildew problems in search of a solution More tips on Ren Faire costuming, and costuming for the heat Costume exhibits, SF Bay area The problem with acetate... ISO: Info on clothing in Wisconsin, 1850 - 1950 Accuracy vs authenticity Getting NPR transcripts ------------------------------ From: cpecourt@mhv.net Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 18:25:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Hedgehog Handiwork Info Hello Does anyone have the number to call to get a catalog for Hedgehog Handiwork? I'd appreciate an info,..even an address.. Or another good source for metal clasps etc. Thanks Chantal ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Mar 95 15:26:02 PST From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: CD-ROM project I spent some years as a technical writer for computer research labs at Xerox and Hewlett-Packard, so I'm not unaware of computer capabilities. Although a CD-ROM allows cross-referencing and searching, a traditional book index and table of contents can do quite a lot. I've also spent some years as a project editor in book publishing. Although I don't know how CD-ROM projects are marketed I certainly know how book projects are marketed to publishers, and how finished books are marketed to retailers and readers. How-to and education are certainly major parts of the book market. However, the _subject_ of a how-to or educational work is very important. If it's related to a common need (such as how to make money or lose weight), a fashionable leisure pursuit (such as running), or a topic that's part of the standard college curriculum (such as American History I), it will be received far better than a book on a topic of far less interest to the general culture (unfortunately historic costume falls into this category). In marketing, the sheer quantity of potential readers is very important, regardless of how excellent the book is. I find it hard to believe that CD-ROM publishers would operate differently. I also think it's unlikely that museums or anyone else will contribute any significant amount of quality work for free (or for peanuts), even if it's a great idea. For one thing a CD-ROM involving videos and pictures as well as text, and a huge amount of data overall, would be a far bigger project than a book. Even if a number of people contributed work, each would incur expenses and each would spend time that is normally paid for. I'm sensitive on this topic because I'm periodically (sometimes it seems, often) asked to contribute free time to other people's research or writing projects--on one occasion to a CD-ROM project in historic dance. Their attitude was "You write anyway and you enjoy it, so what's wrong with asking you to do it free?" Well, the answer is that I need to spend the time doing writing that I get payment, credit, professional respect, and copyright protection for. (I'm just glad no one seems to have figured out I sew--I've been told by professional designers in the garment industry that the neighbors are always asking them to hem their (the neighbors') jeans.) I've wandered off the topic a bit. What I mean to say is that, without being insulting, I find it hard to feel confident about a project where no market research has been done, that has no clear focus, and with no definite plans for who will do the work and how to pay them--there _will_ be expenses other than producing the CD. All this may be to come, of course; but I think any publisher would ask these questions. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 14:42:08 -1000 From: Jan McEwen Subject: Re: Hedgehog Handiwork Info > Does anyone have the number to call to get a catalog for Hedgehog Handiwork? > I'd appreciate an info,..even an address.. Or another good source for > metal clasps etc. I picked up a copy of Hedgehog Handworks most recent catalogue last month at the Estrella War; the catalogue costs $1.00. Hedgehog Handworks PO Box 45384 Westchester, CA 90045 Phone: (310) 670-6040 I also picked up an interim catalog from House Morningstar (mostly period patterns and clasps): House Morningstar PO Box 20094 Houston, TX 77225 Showroom phone: (713) 729-7990 Workshop phone: (713) 721-1941 FAX: (713) 729-6983 And also Lady Dianotto's Fine Sewing Notions (fabrics, trim, books, fiber, buttons & clasps, ,etc): Lady Dianotto's 18949 Marsh Lane #1413 Dallas, TX 75287 Phone: (214) 307-5147 Swatch set: $2.00 Trim sample card: $2.00 Catalogue (includes book catalogue): $1.00 Anyone else has interesting sources? Jan ------------------------------------------------------------- Jan McEwen, Department of Horticulture, University of Hawaii SCA: Catriona Stewart, Barony of the Western Seas, Caid Internet: jmcewen@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Mar 1995 22:12:56 -0500 (EST) From: Elizabeth McMahon Subject: Re: bras & corsets On Fri, 24 Mar 1995, Jay Isaacs wrote: > determined that the corset consumend 28,000 pounds of steel each year, > enoughh to build two complete battle ships. It was at this time Corres > Crosbey (spelling...?) ties two silk hankies together to fashion a bra. > Her design was then quickly pattented by Warrner Brothers (I've already > submittted the patent search), yes the one and only movie company. The I know nothing whatsoever about this, but Warner is a major lingerie label. Take a walk through any department store lingerie department and see for yourself! -*-*- Beth McMahon 212-741-4400 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 08:15:03 -0500 (EST) From: andrea ruth leed Subject: Re: Re[2]: CD-ROM of Costumes??? I'd be willing to help digitize pictures for the web, as I have access to graphics applications (Photoshop, Quark, etc.) and scanners. Unfortunately I've already filled all five of my accounts with stuff, and have no more space to store them in. If anyone else had room for the stuff, I could get it on the computer and transfer it over to them. Drea On Thu, 23 Mar 1995, Willie Peloquin wrote: > >> As an aside, does the mailing list have a Web Page? And could it be used > >> to set up a Costume database that could be a visual reference > >> library of costumes? Where people could upload/download gifs and graphics > >> etc? > > > > > >I recently sent a message asking if anyone was interested in a Web site > >of costumes constructed by members of this group. My idea was that it > >would be easier to see construction details and designs in pictures. > > > >I'd be happy to broaden that to a Web page that encompasses the entire > >subject of historic costuming. But first, two questions: > > > >1) Is there enough interest in seeing a Web page devoted to historic > >costuming? > > > >2) Are the members ready and willing to send me materials, pictures, > >descriptions, book lists, suggestions....you tell me... > > I would be very interested in a historic costuming Web page. I have > several images I could contribute. I am very interested in Landsknecht > and Viking costumes. I would also contribute information on actually > building costumes as I figure it out myself. I am not very good at making > costumes, but I am trying. Such a site would be of great use to me, and > I will share the things I am learning at this time. I will forward this > message to my SCA group's mailing list and see if I can stir up some > interest in digitizing some costumes made by members of my group. > > Willie > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Willie Peloquin PP-ASEL | I'm not a kid anymore, but this ain't no > wpeloqui@medar.com | midlife crisis, because whiskey and women > | have always been my vices! Bocephus > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ============================= aleed@ezmail.ucs.indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: Elizabeth Lewandowski Subject: USITT Date: Mon, 27 Mar 95 7:06:59 CST For all who asked: USITT is the United States Institute for Theatre Technology, the American Association of Design and Production Professionals in the Performing Arts. The Insittute was created in the early 1960's by a group of theatre designers and production professionals. The membership today is made up of over 4,000 designers and technologists in theatre and the related industries. The Insititute is made up of commissions, the largest of which is the Costume Commission. The Costume Commission has a number of ongoing projects, including a flat pattern exchange. For more information write: USITT 10 West 19th Street Suite 5A New York, NY 10011-4206. Each year the Insitute holds a conference. This year the conference was in Las Vegas NV March 20-23. A publication that you may be interested in is "Cutter's Research Journal", the only juried publication in costuming in North America. It regularly contains period patterns, research articles, book reviews and much more. Write to the above address for more info. If I can answer any other questions, just holler. By the way, next year's conference is in Fort Worth, so y'all come! Elizabeth "Have fun and go home when you're tired." ------------------------------ From: PSW@cba-gsb-dean.tamu.edu Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 8:49:09 CST6CDT Subject: silk prices Susan Fatemi - share with those of us unknowing, how would one contact Thai Silks for Mail? Thanks! Pam Wiley ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 95 08:32:25 PST From: Loren_Dearborn@casmail.calacademy.org (Loren Dearborn) Subject: Re: Need Advice on Cleaning Mildew Stains >Help! This weekend I was going through my closet, in which I store all my nice >and expensive clothing, and noticed mildew on almost every single piece of >clothing. I have at least fifty items in there and there is NO way I can afford >to have them all dry cleaned by professionals. Do you know of any do-it-at-home >dry cleaning product you can purchase? Is there something I can put in my >closet to absorb moisture? It must be going around (all the rain in northern CA?) - I too discovered just this weekend a few historical creations of mine with mildew on them, any suggestions? Loren Dearborn ldearborn@calacademy.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 11:00:17 -0800 From: Alison Kondo Subject: bra's & corsets I saw the programme on women's history also...liked the fashion & cosmetic segments. I thought they were a bit narrow, though in attributing some of the more "masculine" dress styles to Amelia Earheart. Greta Garbo was famous for wearing elegant tailored pants at about the same time. I think the rise of pants for women was due to several fashion leaders rather than just one. About WW1 & clothing..American womens dress styles changed radically between 1917 & 1918, from looking in "Vogue magaziens of the period. THe 1917 skirts were fairly full, the 1918 ones were very narrow because wool was rationed that year to make uniforms instead. THe hemline also dropped because leather was rationed alos & women couldn't have high topped boots anymore. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 95 13:52:43 EST From: (David W. Rickman) Subject: re: Re: Renaissance Faire Costume Hello, Regarding Deborah's inquiry into sources of information for Elizabethan costume, I know it is just for a Renaissance Faire, but I am often surprised when we who know better don't recommend some of the standards. As background, why not Millia Davenport's unsurpassed _The Book of Costume_, Nora Waugh's _The Cut of Women's Clothes_ and _The Cut of Men's Clothes_, Cunnington and Cunnington's _Handbook of English Costume in the 17th Century_ and the wonderful _Patterns of Fashion...c1560-1620_ by Janet Arnold? For experienced costume makers, both Waugh and Arnold's books are excellent. More theatrically oriented, but valuable, is Hill and Bucknell's _The Evolution of Fashion_. All of these should be presented as sources to anyone who wishes (and Deborah might not) to get serious about the costume he or she makes for the _next_ Renaissance Fair. Someone else wrote to say that the use of lightweight fabrics by SCA and other American reenactors is a practical decision because American summers (I believe San Bernardino, California was mentioned here or elsewhere) are more severe than European. While not questioning either their right to use cotton, or to be comfortable, my first thought on reading this was, "What did the Renaissance and Elizabethan era explorers and colonists do when their temperatures in Plimoth, Jamestown, Barbados, etc. reached not just 100 degrees, but also 100 percent humidity?" I think that, rather than interpreting costume shapes (i.e., doublets, gowns, etc.) in lightweight fabric to beat the heat, it would be fun to make the garments in proper weight fabrics then "deconstruct" the period silhouette as they would have, in opressive heat. God forgive me for using "deconstruct," it just seemed to be the right word here. I draw attention to paintings by Breughel, Durer and others which show men with their doublets undone, shirts open, their hose unlaced and folded down to reveal their bare thighs, and so on. Women would probably go down to their shifts and petticoats. Everyone would take a siesta during the hottest part of the day. The other advantage is (especially for you folks in California where, though the days may be hot, the nights are cold) that you can put your woolen costume back on as things cool off in the evening. This seems like a more interesting, and perhaps more fun, way of beating the heat. After all, no one suggest switching into seersucker chain mail for the noon melee, do they? David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 95 11:39:37 PST From: susanf@EERC.Berkeley.Edu (Susan Fatemi) Subject: exhibits Bay Area people: There is an exhibit at the Asian Art Museum of Korean textiles/ patchwork, etc. from the Choson(?) pd. (18th-19th c.?) thru' April 30. An exhibit at the Chinese Cultural center (Holiday Inn on Kearney) of the historic-type cosstumes and furnishings used in "the Joy Luck Club". thru' April 8. probably everybody but me already knows this, but tho't I'd post it anyway! Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Mon, 27 Mar 95 15:46:52 EST Subject: Re[3]: Renaissance Faire Costume In response to Davis Rickman's excellent points on "deconstructing" period clothing, please note that both linen and wool come in a variety of weights, including very nearly see-through. I have some very lightweight wool that I used to make a "bog dress" for SCA wear, and also an airisaid for Highland living history in these hot, humid climes (I really needed it last year when it was 98 degrees and 100% humidity at one muster). Oliver Cromwell ordered both linen and cotton shirts for his troops during the English Civil War in the mid 1600s. The staff at James Fort (Jamestown) certainly strips down to open double and shirt and ungartered hose during hot weather. Natural fabrics breathe and once you sweat them up, they dry quickly. If there is anyone out there who does historical re-enactments or living history at St. Augustine, FL, please let us know how you deal with the heat & humidity. I agree with David Rickman. It also looks more natural to see players at the Ren Faire undone (and the Court wishing they could). A nice laundry battle with an exchange of wet shirts at close quarters works well to cool people down too. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 17:51:40 NST From: "Lassman, Linda" Subject: Re: Introduction Sabine Beilfuss Welcome to the group, Sabine! I hope you enjoy the postings and get a lot of good information. I know I have found it to be particularly helpful with suggestions for music. I also hope you have good luck in finding men for your group--while there seem to be many on this list, they are hard to find anywhere else! - Linda Lassman Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada ------------------------------ From: "Lassman, Linda" Subject: Re: CD-ROM Date: Fri, 24 Mar 95 08:42:00 PST Fran Grimble has a good point about the limitability of CD-ROMs and the limited market of costuming-related material, but I don't necessarily agree with her reasoning. First, from what I've seen (get ready for a Really Broad Generalization!), costumers tend to be pretty specialized in what they're interested in. For example I'm really interested in the European costume from about 1400 (in Italy) to about 1675 and would buy a CD-ROM that was totally about that. While I'm somewhat interested in a few other areas, I wouldn't buy a CD-ROM in them. I have other friends who are fascinated with Roman and Dark Ages but who couldn't care less about other periods. I buy books in my areas, they buy books in theirs and so while we're all really interested in costuming, from the publishers point of view, there's only a really small market. By the same reasoning, then, multiple, era-specific CD-ROMs would be required. I know if I wanted information on Renaissance costuming and the CD-ROM had only 1/100th of its content on it, I wouldn't buy it--just like I might check out one good "overview" book from the library, but I wouldn't buy one. Secondly, the flexibility of a CD-ROM is what makes it superior to printed material. The CD-ROM technology would allow you to get "up close and personal" to all sides of a garment, as well as showing construction techniques as they happen (even if it's stop-action), which doesn't happen in print material--or at least doesn't happen often enough to count! Just my $.03 (CDN) worth. - Linda Lassman Winnipeg, Manitoba ------------------------------ From: "Lassman, Linda" Subject: Re: Silk prices vs. acetate Date: Sat, 25 Mar 95 13:37:00 PST Susan Fatemi writes: >Re: silk prices vs. acetate >Whatever acetates chemical composition is, it tends to look cheapish, >and worse, burns brightly! So carefull, if you're making a very full skirt/ >garment. Also, acetate doesn't hold dye well, and tends to rub-off after >time (so you get a big pale spot where you sit) And don't forget not to use an acetone-based nail-polish remover anywhere near an acetate garment. One spill and you've got instant air conditioning! (And you can almost guarantee it'll be in the middle of the front, where there's no easy way to hide it either!) - Linda Lassman Winnipeg, Manitoba ------------------------------ Subject: Help With Ideas Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 15:45:02 -0600 (CST) From: Martin Blasczyk Greetings.... I have a friend that is planning a type of "historical reenactment" tour next fall that is to take place in Milwaukee Wisconsin. It will concentrate on local people from the 1850s up to the 1950s. She needs a source of appropriate clothing/costumes covering that time period. The project has very little budget, so things would have to be on a volunteer/loan basis (most likely in exchange for credit/sponsorship). Any help, donations, suggestions would be appreciated (they may or may not have enough time/people to sew costumes from patterns). You can post an answer or send a private e-mail to blasczyk@mpm1.mpm.edu (if you have any questions contact me at the above address). Ideas at this point would be appreciated....note, this is not a soliciation to purchase items....it IS a request for information about avenues to explore (such as various catalogs, or contact with others who have done such events in the past and can offer useful suggestions). Thanks, ---Martin--- ( I apologize if this is walking the borderline of what this group considers proper posts...this group was suggested by someone reading mt general post on one of the sewing orientated newsgroups, so I just grabbed the post and sent it to this group) ------------------------------ From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Mon, 27 Mar 95 17:05:13 EST Subject: Stuff I owe people To those of you to whom I owe information, patterns, stamps, etc. I have not forgotten. An unexpected business trip intervened, and prevented me from getting packets together. Never fear! I have your snail mail addresses & you will be receiveing things within the next couple of weeks. Once again, sorry for the delay. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ From: RJRowoldt@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Mar 1995 17:17:39 -0500 Subject: sources When I subscribed to this list, I received the standard 'here's what we're about' letter, which stated clearly: >Its emphasis is on accurate historical reproduction of clothing.... I have noticed a large number of postings about 'authenticity', which is NOT the same thing as accurate historical reproduction. Further, 'authenticity' in historical costume can never exist, for a large variety or reasons. First of all, there is no bible of historical costuming for any period or style (Brian A Howard; 95-03-24, Re: Renaissance Faire Costume). For many years, costuming students and costume designers were taught that Lucy Barton's "Historic Costume for the Stage" (Boston, Walter H Baker Co., 1935, with periodic revisions and renewals) was THE bible for historic costume. So, if it didn't come from Barton, it wasn't 'right'. Those who promoted this opinion were looking for an easy answer; they ignored Barton's own statements about the authenticity of what she put forth. The book was only intended to provide an overview of what people were "likely to be wearing" (p. viii in the 1963 version) in any given time period. The most detailed portions of the book are those describing how the various periods could be *simulated* for the stage. In fact, she even states that true authenticity should not be desired, as it results in dull, stultified costumes (p ix, 1963 version). An area Lucy Barton never touches is the ultimate frustration of trying to be 'absolutely authentic.' To be truly authentic, every aspect of the manufacture and wear of historical clothing must be pursued, from the raising of the fiber source, through the production of the fiber, through the (if applicable) weaving of the fiber into whole cloth, through the cutting and sewing of the garments, to the wearing of them. Each of these steps (not to mention maintenance and repair) must be done with true period sources, in true period methods, with true period tools. In the discussion on locating linen sources, I have yet to hear of anyone locating handwoven linen, much less linen woven on, for example, Renaissance looms, which differ greatly from even the modern handlooms used to produce the finest Irish handwoven linen. And how many of us are using true period tools in our sewing? Did you know that changes in the production of hand needles greatly changed the results of handsewing (which I presume you are doing if making authentic Renaissance garments)? And none of the above addresses the human element of historical costuming. We all have 'cultural baggage' we carry inside our heads which determines how we wear our clothing. If we are talking about period garments, we need to drop our own baggage and use only that of a person of the period, if indeed we can ever determine that precisely. Let the story of a shirt illustrate this: I had a friend who admired the look illustrated by J C Leyendecker for the Arrow Shirt Company. As luck would have it, I was given an Arrow dress shirt from the period by the wife of the now-long-deceased owner of said shirt. The shirt was in perfect condition--and in my friend's size! So I tried the shirt on him, and we both decided it fit him just as it should. He had me copy the shirt for him (he didn't want to take the shirt from me.) I copied it, gave it to him, and he wore it. Once. It seems that he found the shirt very uncomfortable--the "arm holes" didn't feel like the shirts he wore every day, etc. But yet the cut was exactly that of the original....(sounds a little like a recent posting about corsets!) By the way, Lucy Barton does address this (also page ix of the 1963 version.) In thinking about this shirt, I realized that, from the first, I had been bothered by its pristine condition. So I asked the donor why her husband didn't wear it--and she had no idea. I am left to reflect whether this shirt was NOT a typical example of its genre, or if there may have been another reason the original owner didn't wear it. There are a number of different types of sources for historical costumes. Primary sources are the articles themselves--and just how represented are many time periods and/or locations by existing garments (let alone the thinking of those who wore them!) Secondary sources are art works of the period, which are limited by the possibilities of the materials used and the ability of the artists--not to mention the knowledge the artist may or may not have had about the garments he/she was depicting. Tertiary sources are books like Ms Barton's--and just about every other book on historical clothing. Tertiary sources are like getting a rumor third- or fourth-hand--and we know how that turns out! So what we are left doing is making educated guesses based on a breadth of research--which means a lot of digging into all kinds of sources (not just something handed to one as a 'bible') and an honest comparison of what one digs up. In summary, I guess I would like to see more of this kind of thinking reflected in the postings on this list, and not just harping at one another. Randy J Rowoldt ------------------------------ From: 2Lt Aryeh JS Nusbacher Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 261, 3/24/95 Date: Mon, 27 Mar 95 17:17:35 EST Pam (prowe@us1.msrcnavo.navy.mil) wrote: > This morning (March 16, 1995), Susan Stamberg of National Public Radio > did a piece on the 35th birthday of pantyhose. ... I'm sure someone could > get a transcript of the article from Morning Edition if desired. This is edited from the NPR Tapes and Transcripts page: How To Get NPR Transcripts On-Line National Public Radio and Journal Graphics are proud to offer listeners and Internet users the ability to research subjects and purchase NPR transcripts using an online database system. ... include as much information as possible (program, air date, subject, reporter, etc). Also don't forget your name, e-mail address, Visa/MC/AMEX card # (with exp. date). For $10, they will e-mail you the segment you requested. Please Note!!! NPR does NOT recommend sending your credit card number via e-mail. It is not secure, and can easily be stolen. We're developing a secure way of ordering... stay tuned You may also order transcripts and tapes directly from NPR. Please call 202-414-3232, or write: NPR Transcripts and Tapes 635 Massachusetts Ave, NW Washington, DC 20001 Tapes are $12.95 plus $2.50 shipping and handling, Transcripts are $10 plus $1.50 shipping and handling. Fax service is available for an additional $10. The URL is http://www.npr.org/index.html for the main NPR web page. Aryk Nusbacher | Spare me the history lesson ... Post-Graduate War Studies Programme | Just release my ship! Royal Military College of Canada | Kingston, Ontario - Capt J.T. Kirk ------------------------------ End of Volume 267 -----------------------