From: Gretchen Miller Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 19:12:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 270, 4/3/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 270, April 3, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Topics: Accuracy vs authenticity Thai Silk address About illustrations in Davenports "Book of Costume" Photographs vs drawing/color photos vs black and white photos Kodak CDs of pictures Resources for Viking costume and kit Costuming for hot weather Accurate costuming vs health Boning corsets and bodices On shoemaking, amateur and otherwise 1940's fashion source recommendation Janet Wilson vs Janet Wilson Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 12:44:45 EST From: (David W. Rickman) Subject: re: sources Regarding Randy Rowoldt's comments...I thought _I_ was a shiite when it came to authenticity, but this letter and the response from Jennifer prove to me that I'm just a rookie. Just a few niggling points. Of course Lucy Barton never adressed the question of absolute authenticity. In her day it was never an issue because of the ways these costumes were used, i.e. films, theater, historical pageants and costume balls. Living history as we know it today was in its embryonic state in the 1930s, in places like Plymoth and Williamsburg. No one took it nearly as seriously as we do today when, as one mountain man reenactor boasted that if he were to die on a mountainside and was found by an archaeologist many years later, they would only be able to tell he was from this century by the fillings in his teeth. A pretty sentiment, if true. But Randy is quite correct, we can never be as authentic as the past simply because we are not _of_ the past. However, since he does not bring his letter to any conclusion, such as "so let's trash the whole idea of reenactment" or else "so why bother with accuracy at all?" I am not sure what to do with his points. I will just say that my own reaction to the problem is to _never_ attempt first person living history, and I never recommended it to any of my clients when I was doing it out West. But someone dressed in an historic costume that is a genuine attempt at authenticity, speaking in their own voice in an attempt to interpret and inspire an audience with the notion that history is exciting and important...that's another matter. The costume there is a bridge between that person and their audience; a way of drawing them into the spirit of the time and place. I'll pause here to say that my remarks are, once again, based on my experiences with living history at historic sites, not SCA or other enthusiasts of recreational history (certainly no offense intended). They are mostly liberated from such constraints by the fact that they do not operate on historic sites and that their purpose is not so much to teach others as to experience certain aspects of the past for themselves. As for going through all of the hoops to create an authentic fabric and garment, I actually know of two men who raise their own flax and spin it, etc to make their 19th century Pennsylvania farmer's clothes. State Historic sites in Delaware has a handweaver they call on to make the striped linens they need for an 18th century plantation's wardrobe, and I'm sure we will get many responses from other dedicated souls who do similarly insane things, bless them. However, anyone who makes or wears historical costumes need not do all this for themselves. All they need to do is make certain that what they wear and use does not significantly differ in appearance or behavior from the materials of the past. Where they do, _then_ go for the genuine material. For example, my wife is a curator of textiles in a respected museum, and she cannot tell fine handwoven linen from machine woven without an optical loop. On the other hand, I cannot take reenactors seriously who use commercially, chemically tanned deerskin for their 18th-19th century frontiersman costumes, when brain-tanned buckskin is so very different in appearance, texture, drape, water-resistance, etc. Similarly, for sewing: few of us will ever match past standards of stitching; I once owned an 1820s chemise on which the stitches were so fine that my eyes could barely detect them. Unless the reenactor plans to step out of their costume in public, and then show the visitors the seams, the standard I always used was that all internal seams could be machine sewn, while only those that showed had to be hand-sewn. Have an authentic appearance, by all means, but why drive yourself crazy if there is no visual difference between the genuine and the modern methods? Finally, I'm going to take issue with the belief that visual sources are secondary in researching historic garments. I cannot claim that they are as good as a genuine garment, but drawings, paintings and sculpture that date from the same period are almost equally valuable in confirming the wider use of details found on original garments, and giving us a better view of the varied range of period garments than we could get from the single surviving specimen alone. So, it's a bit of a tradeoff. Well, I've run on a bit here, and I hope those of you still with me are forgiving. I'll just close by saying that I agree wholeheartedly with Randy's views on the impossibility of creating genuinely authentic garments. It is impossible. But is the effort worth undertaking? Within reason, certainly. David ------------------------------ From: P_SHERYL@KCPL.LIB.MO.US Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 13:06:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: silk prices Pam, You asked how to contact Thai Silks. This is off of the flyer I got from them about 6 months ago: Thai Silks 242 State Street Los Altos, CA 94022 Phone: (415) 948-8611 Fax: (415) 948-3426 Toll free numbers: 1-800-722-SILK 1-800-221-SILK (in California) They'll send you a price list for free. For a $20 deposit they'll send you a swatch of EVERY fabric (400-450 samples). I believe you get the your deposit back if you place an order within a certain length of time. They also have a fabric club in which you get samples of all the newest fabrics 4 times a year for $20/year membership fee. Hope this helps! Sheryl J. Nance Kansas City MO Public Library p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 14:02:00 EST From: (David W. Rickman) Subject: re: Davenport's Regarding Millia Davenport's book and Susan's disappoinment with an illustration, I can only imagine from my own experience that at the time she was researching that illustration, she never saw a photograph to compare to the drawing, and assumed it was correct. Probably no photograph did exist at that time. However, while it does prove the importance of working from the best possible sources, as an illustrator, I will defend the value of artists' interpretations of original artwork. Often a good, accurate drawing can show what a photograph cannot. Finally, I don't suppose any one source is without fault. That is the importance of research. But as an overall source, from prehistory to the mid- 19th century, you have to respect the breadth of that woman's knowlege. I do wish someone would reissue it with clearer illustrations, though. David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 13:56:20 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb Subject: Re: Costume CD-ROM > A friend of mine mentioned the other day that she had gotten a >packet of info from Thrifty's describing Kodax's CD-ROM services. She >says that Kodax can make a CD-ROM for anyone using any material. She >seemed to think that the cost is around $1.50 per picture with all pictures >used being either in the form of a slide or negative. She didn't mention >the cost or procedure for text. However, this might be an option worthy Ah yes, I'd forgotten about this more simple technique. A friend here at work has used it. You send a roll of film to Kodak, and they put it on a CD-rom. They can later add a second roll of film, maybe more. MINOR CATCH: someone would have to photograph the costumes on one roll of film. You don't get to choose, and put only the good shots. You get the whole roll of film. Period. And I don't believe there is ANY facility for text, unless you photograph the text page by page. Readably. Still, at work it is useful for storing photos of construction work on our high-energy-particle beamlines, so that later you can verify that "yes, we did install the XXX at such and so location". It would probably be wonderful if someone has vacation photos of costumes, but we'd still run into possible copyright or "right to publish" problems. Photos of one's own work would be less difficult. One could do step-by-step as-you-go construction detail shots. Just some thoughts ... <============================================================== < Deb Baddorf Fermilab, MS220 Arthurian,Inkling,&Regency buff Baddorf@fnal.gov PO Box 500 Costumer, RevWar re-enactor Baddorf@fnal.bitnet Batavia, IL 60510 MAC Q605 w/ IIe emulator & FPU ------------------------------ From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 16:11:28 EST Subject: Re[2]: Davenport's Re: David's comments on Milia Davenport's book. I wonder how much it would cost with color illustrations.....? How many of us would invest in it? (I for one!) Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 16:05:05 EST From: (David W. Rickman) Subject: re: Re[2]: Davenport's Regarding the idea of reprinting Davenport's _The Book of Costume_, even without the color photos (and I agree, they would be great) the toughest part would be to find a publisher who could be convinced there was a market for the thing. I would be just as happy with a good deal of black and white, if it could all be reshot with modern technology. I much prefer Davenport's book to Boucher's, yet that book has been in print for years now, due largely, I think, to the fact that it is largely in color. David ------------------------------ Date: 28 Mar 95 16:31:46 EST From: Ann Fairburn <73672.3317@compuserve.com> Subject: Viking Clothing Willie, The Viking Age is one of my favorite periods as well. One god book that has been recently published is _From Viking to Crusader_ by Else Roesdahl and David M. Wilson ISBN 0-8478-1625-7. It was published in 1992 and covers the Scandinavians from Europe to Russia. It even has a section on Finland which a lot of books leave out. It was the museum catalog for a exhibition that travelled through Europe. It has some good reconstructions in it. It is also full of "stuff" such as all the clothing accessories, examples of fabrics, combs, weapons, furniture, shoes, etc. The SCA Complete Anachronist on Northern Women's Costume mentioned in a previous message is good, but stay away from the one called "A Viking Miscellanea". It still promotes the outdated idea of the "Sandwich Board" style of women's dress which is still commonly seen in the SCA. The other articles in it may be OK. I couldn't bring myself to read them after I saw what they had written about the costume. Jenny Bray, who also subscribes to this list, is in a Viking Age group in England that is more of a reenactment group than the SCA. She can probably dump more info on you than you can absorb. All the info that I have ever received from her has always been well documented. Good luck. The best thing about the Viking Age costumes are that they are just made for camping out. While all your friends are sweating in their corsets you can be walking around in light cool clothing that is not dragging in the mud and can have short sleeves. Their main drawback is some of the styles can look somewhat dumpy, but if you spif them up with enough card weaving nobody will notice. Ann Fairburn ------------------------------ From: RJRowoldt@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 17:07:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Re: sources Jennifer-- Thank you for corroborating my recent comments--although I'm not sure you intended to. You comment: >I'm not suggesting that the end result will be 100% authentic, too little is known about the textiles of the time to gaurantee (sic) that, but I do find it interesting attempting to replicate a garment from Raw materials. >I'm sure I still have a lot of inaccuracies in our costumes caused by our modern knowledge & assumnptions (sic). Learning more & improving the costumes I make is part of my enjoyment of historical costuming, I've got a sneaking suspicion that if someone handed me a time machine so I could get the definitive answer to all my costuming questions I'd lose interest alltogether(sic)! Part of my point, exactly! You HAVE thought about the entire process, and don't pontificate absolutes--which is what bothers me most about many listings. Needles (and pins, also) are subject to changes in technology (yes, I was thinking of iron needles) usually prompted by someone importing technology from one disicipline into another. The development of metal needles allowed a somewhat more standard product; this in turn lead to a greater diversity of types of needles (as it was realized that certain types really worked better in certain applications) resulting in improved standardization of seams. Then someone got the bright idea of insuring an even more standardized needle by mechanizing the production process--which in turn lead to further improved seams, etc. The sewing machine was developed to standardize the only part of the process still done by hand--handsewing the seams (and decoration, etc.) Interestingly enough, machine stitching the seams was resisted at first--it wasn't thought to be durable enough, and so was relegated to non-structural sewing (the decoration of the garments.) You see the kind of spiral in which this results--only now the hand aspects of garment construction are somehow supposed to imitate the machine aspects. That's just the tip--one could also address the development of additional seam types, 'advancements' in pressing (or the need to in the first place), etc. I wish I could be more detailed, but I already think I write too long, and that could be material for a book (just what I need--another book topic!) Thanks--Randy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 18:26:20 -0500 (EST) From: "Hope A. Greenberg" Subject: Re: Costume CD-ROM > MINOR CATCH: someone would have to photograph the costumes on > one roll of film. You don't get to choose, and put only the good > shots. You get the whole roll of film. Not quite. You can also have the CDs made from slides. If you go up to the maximum number of images per disk (100 now but more soon?) the cost can come down to under $1.00 an image. We are using this technique to put some rare illustrated books online. Photographing them is much less damaging to the originals and the PhotoCD images are much better quality than you can get with the typical flat bed scanner. Getting them from CD to Web is a process that takes only minutes and the originals on the CD will still be there in all their superior quality when computer graphics/displays eventually get better. (More detailed description of this project and the decision to use PhotoCD in the Web address below) The only question is how good an archival medium is a PhotoCD (certainly better than color prints!). At least once it's in digital form it's easier to get from one technology to another. - Hope ----------------- Hope Greenberg Hope.Greenberg@uvm.edu Academic Computing http://moose.uvm.edu/~hag Univ. of Vermont Come visit The Hall's latest addition: Burlington, VT 05405 The Ovid Project ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 14:42:02 PST From: "cynthia" Subject: Authenticity: info on previous discussion >- just because a previous discussion on Authenticity got acrimonious, >and I know I played my part in this, are we never supposed to mention >the word/concept again? It is an important element for me (and I was >the one justifying using cotton!). > >Caroline Seems to me the topic is pertinent and should still be open. However, we should endeavor to keep the knives & blunt objects out of the discussion. I, for one, would like to plea for those who werent part of the original, um, skirmish to find and read the back issues. The most common Subject lines were "hot clothing" "uncomfortable/hot clothing", "Authenticity", "The old authenticity thing" & "calif recreations". Use these when you send your TOPICS search to majordomo@lunch.eng.sgi.com This way we wont revisit some of the nastier views like "why are you re-enacting medieval England & Scotland in Southern California and complaining about having to wear wool" and "It's my fantasy/ SCA outfit/ theater production/ limited budget I'll dress anyway I please". Just as opinionated as Caroline, --cin Cynthia@caere.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 21:08:42 -0500 (EST) From: Astrida E B Schaeffer Subject: RE:Plimoth in hot weather Hi, I've been lurking for quite a while and now I'm going to put my 2 cents in at last! With regard to the Plimoth settlers adapting to the climate of New England summers by dressing down or moving to lighter cloth weights--believe it or not, they didn't. That is, at least according to the training manuals used by Plimoth Plantation for their interpreters. Here's the quote: "We are much freer to strip off clothing without it being construed as a lessening of station (dress being a primary indication of status in the 17th century).In a society as conscious of status as that which we represent, individuals were neither anxious to be mistaken or to mistake social levels. Medically as well, there were concerns about the effects of sun and air on the human body which are no longer accepted. According to colonial accounts, newcomers bundled up in hot weather, and then complained about feeling hot." The manual goes on to recommend to its interpreters to pursue the topic further by reading an article in Plimoth's resource library by Kuperman, called "Fear of Hot Climates". Unfortunately I know nothing more of this recommended article, nor am I a volunteer at Plimoth at this point (two hours' drive each way got to be a bit much, no matter how much I enjoyed helping in their wardrobe dept.) so I don't expect to be near their resource library anytime soon. Just goes to show that even seemingly logical or commonsense assumptions can mislead us--although, with all the current ozone brouhaha, fear of exposure to the sun doesn't sound so far out after all! Astrida ************************************************************ Astrida Schaeffer "All life on Earth is a fairy tale in which outlandish creatures pursue impossible lives" - Rutherford Platt ------------------------------ From: "Edward J. Zeitler" Subject: Re: Costume CD-ROM Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 23:01:06 EST Deb Baddorf wrote: >You send a roll of film to Kodak, and they put it on a CD-rom. >They can later add a second roll of film, maybe more. >MINOR CATCH: someone would have to photograph the costumes on >one roll of film. You don't get to choose, and put only the good >shots. You get the whole roll of film. Period. >And I don't believe there is ANY facility for text, unless you >photograph the text page by page. Readably. I have not used the Kodak service myself but one of my co-workers tells me that you can get individual shots put on a disc. You have to get the roll developed yourself, then send it to them with a list of which shots you want. You can also send prints, if you don't have the negatives, and they can scan them in for you. Needless to say (so why am I saying it:) ) this service will cost more per shot than sending in an entire roll. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + Edward J. Zeitler + Keep your worries behind you, + + zeitler@bnlls1.nsls.bnl.gov + so you can see what's before you. -Nektar + +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ From: Connie_Frick@Douglas.BC.CA Subject: Wool clothing Date: Tue, 28 Mar 95 20:23:24 PST While I can understand people wanting to be as authentic as they can when making costumes, no one has touched upon a subject which completely and utterly prevents me from using wool. I am horribly allergic to it. Therefore I tend to use fabrics such as cotton - they had it then and I can wear it without hurting. Just another perspective. Connie -- Connie Frick Connie_Frick@douglas.bc.ca Buyer, Douglas College aka Her Grace Jacyntha, AA ------------------------------ Date: 29 Mar 95 03:13:54 EST From: Gary Anderson <72437.674@compuserve.com> Subject: Various Date: March 29, 1995 >From Janet Wilson Anderson Subject: Bodices/Corsets Re Ann Nielsen's Posting on Ren Bodices and the "Shelf" We provide a lot of bodice and corset patterns for RenFairs around the country and this is what we've found. Generally, the fully boned corsets are worn under middle and upper class outfits to provide the flattened front/conical shape typical of the mid to late 16th century. Then the bodice itself is lightly boned (generally front, side and along both sides of the lacing openings. The boning in the bodice keeps it from wrinkling and works with the corset to provide the proper shape Those going "peasant" may certainly opt to wear a boned corset underneath, but generally simply bone the bodice itself. At a minimum, you need two bones down the front where it laces, and two bones on the side seams. Ladies of more ample bosom may add additional front stays. As for the "sinking bosom" (oops, slid down inside again!) I use two crescent shaped pieces whip-stitched to the inside of my corset. They rather resemble little croissants made of stuffed coutil, and act as little ledges to support the bosom. At some point many years ago, I found a reference to this method of maintaining the bosom "on the shelf" so to speak and have put them in my 16th-18th cent. corsets ever since! An additional note on bodices: if you are making your own bodice, put some form of tabbing/skirting/picadils on the bottom of the bodice for added comfort and avoidance of the "chemise-hanging-out" look. Most commercially purchased bodices don't have this nice bottom feature, because it's labor-intensive. It costs money to put even a small skirting around the bottom, much less all those tabs - so the bodices you buy usually don't have them. As a result, the bodice often cuts in at the waist, or gaps away from the skirt. A few inches on the bodice bottom improves the look and comfort enormously! JanetWA of Raiments, speaking pragmatically as opposed to academically! ------------------------------ Date: March 25, 1995 >From Janet Wilson Anderson Subject: Shoes and Shoe-Making Probably the second most common question-set we get (after corsetry) is on shoes. Up til the period of the "lasted" shoe, shoemaking can be done relatively easily, with simple stitching by hand or machine (if your machine handles leather) or even glue. If I may be permitted the "commercial", the Raiments collection of shoe patterns includes Romano-British/Celtic (laced), Medieval (with the long toes), Tudor (square toe), and Elizabethan (more form-fitting) shoe patterns. The instructions give you sewing and glueing options and are quite easy to follow. There's also a very nice high-top moccasin pattern that, sans fringe, makes an excellent soft high boot, and is easily adaptable to Faire and SCA-wear. I've seen them made up in suede, cowhide, pigskin, and even heavy fabric, with and without a hard sole glued/sewed to them, and they look marvelous! If you are more adventuresome, the "Making Your Own Shoes" book by Mary Wales Loomis is the most user-friendly text for beginners. You can make arched shoes using her methods, without all the fancy shoe-making equipment, but they naturally will not hold up as well as a shoe with the metal last, fitted and shaped soles etc. Serious shoe-making, however, is not a skill approached lightly, and it does require a significant investment in equipment and learning time. Which is why most of us buy the closest things we can find. If you are interested in purchasing good period shoes, the Whole Costumer's Catalog lists a number of sources around the country. None are really cheap, but a good, well-made shoe can stand up to a lot of wear and last for years. JanetWA of Raiments, clothing the eras from top to toe ------------------------------ Date: March 29, 1995 >From Janet Wilson Anderson Re: Books/Sources of information on 40s clothing If you are looking for everyday clothes, I second Alison Kondo's recommendation of "Everyday Fashions of the Forties in Sears and other Catalogs". Just what it says - a visual record of normal- folks clothes. For higher fashion, "The Forties in Vogue", by Carolyn Hall, 1985 Conde Nast (and now out of print, sigh....) covers not only high fashion, but theater, screen, Americans at War and even some of the ads of the time. Also currently in print is the Vogue History of Twentieth Century Fashion, which covers the 40's, with a particular emphasis on High Fashion. There is also a Dover book "Women at Work" which has excellent photos of ordinary women, with a good section on the forties. Probably the best source, though, is the widely available Life Magazines of the era. I have quite a number, and since they often go from high fashion/couture to ads with "idealized" people, to photojournalism of real people living normal lives, they are an excellent visual record - and everything's dated by the week! Lastly, original pattern collections such as the "Attic Copies" from Past Patterns, which is carried by themselves, Raiments and Amazon, give a good representation of what the homesewers of the era were making for themselves. Folkwear also has a number of patterns based on 40's designs. That's a topline for America in the 1940's. Now if you want French or English fashion... that's another list! JanetWA for Raiments (which is really just an excuse to feed my own bookaholicism...) March 29, 1995 >From Janet Wilson Anderson A Clarification I've been reading back HCostume Digests (as you can probably tell from my posting frenzy) and came across something that needs clarifying. Janet Winter and Janet Wilson Anderson are not the same person! Janet Winter is an accomplished author and includes "Elizabethan Costuming" and "Victorian Costuming 1840-1860" with her co-author Caroline Savoy among her credits. Janet Wilson Anderson is the owner of Raiments, hopeless bookaholic, historical trivia devotee, and occasional author of articles on costuming, including "Art to Watch and Wear" in the CostumeMaker's Art. And she sometimes, even, has time to make costumes! JanetW and JanetWA have known each other for years, and are used to the confusion, but are trying not to let it perpetuate in yet another venue. Thanks for helping us keep each other straight! JanetWA (The Raiments' Janet!) ------------------------------ End of Volume 270 -----------------------