From: Gretchen Miller Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 18:39:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 272, 4/5/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 272, April 5, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: On Lucette cord Info on Cossack clothing Address for wool felt and worsted crepe Everyday clothing book ISO: Travelling clothes for 19C American women Supplier of lasts for reenactors French Hoods ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 10:26:25 -0500 (EST) From: dbrowne Subject: Re: Lucet Cord I know a little about the lucet. unfortunatly I do not have much history on it. It's one of those things that everyone is sure that it is pre-1600's but as far as I know (and i'm not an expert in this field) can't be proven. (Oh God now I've started the authencity debate again:-).) The tool that it is done on is a small "lyre" shaped device it is small enough to fit comfortably in your hand and there is a hole drilled through the bottom. All of the ones I have are very smooth wood, some are hard wood others are made of pine, but all of them have been finelly sanded. I have successfully used wool, linen, synthetic and cotton to make cords with. The hardest part about lucet is getting it started. If you will send me your snail mail address I will send you a digram that might help you. After you get going on it, it is really mindless. There is a lady in the SCA who lives in the Middle Kingdom, her name is Alyse Kathrine (sp) she is from the Cleaveland area and is a Mistress of the Laural, she is who taught me many years ago. She might have more information than I do, I don't believe that she is on this net but I know that she is on the Rialto. --Kathy B --Katrinn ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Cossack materials? Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 11:56:27 -0500 From: Elizabeth Lear Someone has sent me mail saying they're interested in reading all discussions on the list. I'd thought the 15th c. Cossack discussion would bore people - if it's fitting to the group, we can keep it here. ...eliz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 09:21:36 -0800 From: delarorm@sce.com (Ruby de la Rosa) Subject: Re: wool flannel and worsted crepe Reply: I am so sorry about this delay, I have been so busy at work and then to add sale to injury I forgot the address at home and deleted the actual note from my eudora log. I have received samples and they are very nice. I initially got this address from netscape somewhere but I was unable to locate the http site. Please feel to say where I posted this address. here is the address: j. blum woolens 256 west 38th street new york, new york 10018-5807 phone 212-354-1210 fax 212-354-1286 Attn: steven blum Kelly Keith wrote: >I am not sure whether I should be sending my query to you or some other >place, but here it goes. > >I would like to see samples of the wool flannel in plum, hunter, and red, >and samples of the crepe in plum tones, red tones, taupe tones, teal, >hunter, and purple. > >My address is: > >4293 South Shire Road >Greenbank, WA 98253. > >Thanks! > > >Kelly Keith ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Cossack materials? Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 12:21:51 -0500 From: Elizabeth Lear >Well, so far I've checked both the local and university libraries, >and the few books they have on the subject all start at about the mid >18th century. I'll be checking out a nearby town's library when I >have the chance, but so far I've used all the sources I can find... Since my SCA persona is from Kiev, I have collected a tremendous number of books on Russian and Ukranian costume. I'll put together a bibliography and post it. I also have the advantage of being in an area where a lot of Ukraninans have settled (northeastern US), and as they have rediscovered their heritage I've gone from finding almost no sources to having a shelf-full. Admittedly, what I have had to do in a number of cases is take the available information on folk costume from the region and work it backwards to the more-scarce information I have on period garb. I have also been able to trace the influence of the Tatars on the regional clothing, and find Turkish and Mongolian clothing of similar styles and earlier periods. At one point, I discovered I was looking in the wrong direction - I had been trying to trace some costume influences from west to east. Once I started tracing from east to west, the path became clear. For example the mente, which is listed in several sources as a "nobleman's coat of the 14th and 15th centuries in Poland and Russia" is very clearly decended from Turkish robes of the 13th century. For that reason, I have a lot of Persian, Turkish, and Indian references as well. Especially in the southern Ukraine region, where the Cossacks originated, there was tremendous influence from the east during the period of Mongol invasion and occupation (roughly the 13th-15th centuries). Bayda Books in Doncaster, Australia, publishes the English-language version of THE HISTORY OF UKRANIAN COSTUME. I did a bulk order of this hardcover book last fall, and I have extra copies to sell if people are interested. It covers the ancient Rus and Scythians through about the 17th century, and has a number of color plates from different periods and regions including the Cossacks. It's also full of great line drawings. I love it. More later. I'm working on memory here since my books are at home and I'm not. ...eliz ------------------------------ From: BRuadh@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 12:38:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Address change Oh well, I'm only as good as my informant. Brian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 95 12:51:40 EST From: (David W. Rickman) Subject: re: Re: Cossack materials? Hello, When I was a boy I went to see Yul Brynner as Taras Bulba and fell in love with Cossacks. Limited though that image was, it led me to Gogol, Tolstoy, Repin and Sokholov. I recently did illustrations of Cossacks for a book on Peter the Great's army. My vote is for leaving the discussion public. Thanks. David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 95 13:34:20 EST From: (David W. Rickman) Subject: Everyday clothing Regarding Ed Cheung's query on costume for everyday, I only know of a book by Peter Copeland, _Everyday Costume in America_ may be the title, but don't quote me. If you are interested in everyday clothing in the early 19th century Far West, I published the _Sutter's Fort Costume Manual_ through California State Parks. Since I get no royalties from the publication, may I say that it is available through Sutter's Fort State Historic Park in Sacramento and covers all the nationalities, their costumes and hairstyles, present in California (and much of the West) in the 1830s-40s? Good luck. David ------------------------------ From: "Amy Underhill" Date: 30 Mar 95 16:01:52 EST Subject: women and train travel A friend of mine would like to research the history of travelling clothes for women. She is specifically interested in what women may have worn when travelling on trains in the post- Civil War U.S. Does anyone know of basic sources she should look at? She'd be interested in illustrations, sources for old advertisements, scholarly articles or books, etc... many thanks, Amy Underhill ------------------------------ From: 2Lt Aryeh JS Nusbacher Subject: Lasts Date: Thu, 30 Mar 95 16:42:31 EST Lasts can be had from Capitol Leather and Findings in Toronto. The owners are re-enactment types, and they have zillions of lasts in all shapes and sizes. I don't have their address or phone number handy, but I'm sure Directory Assistance in the 416 area will tell you. Kel Rekuta, one of the partners, is also net-connected. He posts occasionally to rec.org.sca. Best of luck, Aryk Nusbacher | Spare me the history lesson ... Post-Graduate War Studies Programme | Just release my ship! Royal Military College of Canada | Kingston, Ontario - Capt J.T. Kirk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 13:58:07 -0800 (PST) From: "Pegisue O'Brien" Subject: Re: Cossack materials? On Thu, 30 Mar 1995, Elizabeth Lear wrote: > > Someone has sent me mail saying they're interested in reading all > discussions on the list. I'd thought the 15th c. Cossack discussion > would bore people - if it's fitting to the group, we can keep it here. > > ...eliz I, personally would like to keep it here. I find all eras and societies interesting. I would rather read about styles than the ever-ongoing argument between re-enactors and recreators. PS [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Peggy Sue O'Brien pegisue@u.washington.edu University of Washington Lady Orfhlaith Ingen Bhriain Infectious Diseases, Mailstop SJ-10 Barony of Madrone, An Tir Seattle, WA 98195 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 95 13:41:30 PST From: Kat@grendal.rain.com (June Russell) Subject: Re: French Hoods (long) Sarah Russell asks: :I would like to hear from anyone who has extensive knowledge on French Hoods :(1500-1540) and their origin and authentic patterns. i have made a few myself :and I need more info on them for i will be teaching a class on making them, :so i need authentic pattern and fabric info!! I hope I don't bore people, but this is one of the areas I have been doing research in for years. The following is an excerpt from an article in progress I am doing. The French Hood was smaller than the gable which preceeded it. It was more directly related to the Flemish Beguine (and other draped headdresses) and was made popular in England by Anne Boleyne. Its popularity extended from 1530-1580 (with less popular usage continuing into the 17th century, especially amongst those who had grown old with this being the headdress of their youth). The hood was made on a stiff foundation and was worn far back on the head. This stiff crown (called a Paste) was raised into a horseshoe shaped curve over the head. Its upper edge often had a decorative border calld the Upper Billiment. The Billiments could be satin, silk or velvet, studded with pearls or precious stones, or entirely of goldwork (not the embroidery type of goldwork, but the jewelry type). The Paste could be jeweled in its entirety or left plain to expose the linen, silk, satin or velvet covering. I have been looking, but have not found evidence of embroidery as ornamentation of the Paste. The shape of the Paste varied over time, although it is apparent from the portraits that several styles coexisted in time. >From the back was hung a curtain of dark material, generally of black velvet, which was arranged in formal pleats or was merely a broad flap descending to the shoulders. I believe that the Fall (as it was sometimes called) could either hang from the Upper Billiments or have the paste placed on top of it. I feel that the Upper Billiment was to hold the fall in place as there is always a black fabric under the edge of the Upper Billiments. Also, in many pictures it appears that the back of the Fall begins at the top. However, there are also sculptures and pictures showing the back of the hood where it comes from beneath the Paste. Beneath the hood was a linen cap which tied under the chin with a white or colored band. This fit close to the head, perhaps like a muffin cap or the little undercap seen in the pcitures which may have been of Kateryne Parr (in the red dress). It curved forward on either side over the ears, and was usually covered except for the cheek pieces by the stiffened crown (Paste). The front and cheek portion of the undercap seems to have changed with time, but with many styles coexisting in time. The edge was decorated by the Lower Billiments (also called the Nether Billiments) which often extended down the cheek piece or occasionally down the chin band. Crimped cypress (a fine linen, as seen in the portrait mentioned above which might have been Kateryne Parr) or crimped cloth of gold was added beneath the edge of the cap. The hair was mostly concealed. It was parted in the middle and secured under the cap. Where it was visible, it was smooth (in the early years) or waved and puffed (either by ratting or by rolls of false hair, in later years). The concealed hair was either braided, free flowing or confined in a crespin (which we often call a snood). Bibliography: Multiple paintings in art books, but especially those of Holbein, Clouet and the miniaturists. Roy Strongs books are especially helpful if you can find them, especially:_ The English Icon_, and _Tudor and Jacobean Portraits_. History books about Henry VIII, Anne Boleyne, Elizabeth I, Lady Jane Grey and other personages of the 16th century. Take the all of the following with grains of salt (as with any interpretation,: _Handbook of English Costume in the Sixteenth Century_ by CW Cunnington and P Cunnington, Faber & Faber, London 1954 _Costume in the Drama of Shakespeare and his Contemporaries_ by M. Channing Linthicum, Russell and Russell, NY 1963 _Costume and Fashion, Volume 3, The Tudors, Part I & II_ by Herbert Norris, EP Dutton, NY 1938. I tend to construct my own patterns because I have never been happy with the constuction of the patterns I've seen commercially. They all seem to be based, not on how they would have been made in period, but how they are made in Theatrical costuming. I also feel that the shape of the Paste is better fitted individually, since not everyone has the same face shape/size and even a little difference makes a big difference in the ultimate shape of the Paste. What fits me like one of the earlier more rounded types, flattens out like the hoods worn later by Mary I on someone else and vice versa. Getting the curve right is the key to the difference in the various hoods seen in the portraits. Hope this is helpful. If anyone has additional information, I'm always ready to add to my fund of knowledge too. Someday I'll have the article actually finished, but probably not until I can go to England and study some of the portraits up close/personal. Kat Kateryne of Hindscroft ( June Russell ) pacifier.rain.com!grendal!kat kat@grendal.rain.com Heu! Tintinnuntius meus Sonat! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 14:47:15 -0800 From: Alison Kondo Subject: Everyday dress Its not exactly everyday dress, but Diana De Marly has a book called "Working Dress" which looks at a lot of clothes worn by the "working class" including specific professions like miners & sailors. Hope this helps. Alison P.S. It is historical working dress...not modern ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 14:49:13 -0800 From: Alison Kondo Subject: Cossack Clothing I second the motion for keeping the discussion public. I've got quite a few sources for Russian dress from the 18th & 19th centuries...I'd love to exchange source lists with people. Alison ------------------------------ End of Volume 272 -----------------------