From: Gretchen Miller Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 18:51:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 276, 4/12/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 276, April 12, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: Wearing period garments On CD-ROM and HTML ISO: Full person sized 1780s jacket pattern On decommissioning textile collection pieces On cotton Thai Silk address ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 4 Apr 95 7:49:07 EDT From: (David W. Rickman) Subject: period garments Hello, Regarding Fran Grimble's reply to my message on the use of vintage clothing and textiles, I seem to have struck a nerve. My thanks to Caroline for serving as the voice of reason in all this. That said, I would like to restate something which Fran seems to have misunderstood or overlooked in my message. To start, I do not intend to impose my views about this subject on anyone. I simply posted a message voicing my concerns. I began my message as a protest against the way in which _Victoria_ magazine likened the role of a particular set of costumers (who scrapped historic textiles to make costumes) to the role museum curators perform with their collections. This is not an accurate comparison and it may mislead some into thinking that these costumers really are the same as curators and that cutting up what they own is therefore alright. It may sound a bit harsh, but comparing costumers to curators is really rather like relating the role of a meat packing plant to that of the SPCA. The second thing I did in my message was to state that, as historic costumes and textiles are without a doubt a finite resource, that we should not use that resource up. Caroline has put her finger on the essence of Fran's argument when she says that Fran "conflates power with right." We hear the same cry of "property rights" from land developers who own wetlands they wish to build on. And yes, Caroline, it is a bit unfair to carry my argument for preservation to the extreme. Perhaps there should be museums and private collectors preserving examples of modern clothing, and not just high fashion, but with the kinds of modern records we now have that were unavailable in the past (photography, film, video, standardized patterns for garments, newspapers and magazines) our record of what is both fashionable and daily wear today will be far more complete 200 years from now than what we have from 200 years in the past. However, a gene pool can be depleted when a species is overhunted. Similarly, the historical record is enriched by every example of antique costume which has made down to this date, especially those which come from before the era of mass production. When it is destroyed, an important example of the many variations that once existed in fashionable and daily wear is lost; the record is that much more incomplete. I would like to speak to several of Fran's particular points: -On the availability of the vintage clothing resource. Her anecdotal impression that she had personally not seen any decline in the availability of vintage clothing from any era reflects too narrow a viewpoint. Many things could account for this. In a brief 20 years as the market for vintage clothing has enjoyed unprecedented growth, with a higher value placed on garments and textiles than ever before, more and more pieces have emerged from attics and estate sales. I know an estate agent in Massachussets who yearly discovers 18th and 19th century garments in family collections and has made some tremendous finds. Does that mean she can continue to do so forever? Just how many undiscovered collections do you think can be out there? My own anecdotal experience tells me that we are seeing this supply of undiscovered garments and textiles drying up. There may be plenty of clothing at vintage sales, but the prices are climbing upward. Clearly, this couldn't happen if it were an unlimited resource. Friends of mine who collect also tell me that the once-common discovery in a flea market or junk shop of a great 1930s hat or turn-of-the-century shoes is now a thing of the past. The dealers and collectors have been there first, and what is left coming into these shops are plastic dresses from the 1970s. -And yes, museums _are_ choosy in what they collect. I did say that not every piece is museum quality. However, I will continue to plea for care and respect of historic garments and textiles, even if they are not museum quality. Museums do deaccession. As Fran points out, this usually happens when budgets are tight, as they almost always are today. Then, too, storage space is limited and as new items are purchased or donated to the collection, the curator tries to find space and refine the collection by deaccessioning items which are duplicates, or not of the highest quality. This is often a painful process, at least in my experience, for the curator, who knows that he or she is sending out to an uncertain fate items which once were considered museum quality. What does an animal shelter do when some animals are not adopted and new ones are coming in? -As for my belief that historic items should be preserved, yes, I am guilty of that. At the same time, I live in a 110 year old house that has a modern kitchen and plumbing. I am not unrealistic. However, houses are not garments. Unless this house were altered to make it livable by modern standards, its fate would be demolition and replacement by a new house. The same is not true of antique garments. The alternative to not wearing a vintage garment is not to destroy that garment. Antique clothing and textiles may be collected for their own intrinsic beauty or other appeal, and not worn or cut up to make other things. All things will eventually degrade until they disappear. The conditions they are subjected to will only either hasten or prolong that fate. So, just as I do not advocate the misuse of vintage clothing, neither do I encourage anyone to over-handle antique books, sit on chairs which cannot stand the strain or eat off ancient china. Neither do I advocate cutting these antiques up to make other things. -Finally, I think Fran is out of bounds when she invents unworthy motives for curators when they disagree with her. Yes, times are hard for museums; costume and textile collections are usually unappreciated by museum administrators and jobs are scarce. But far from seeing vintage clothes dealers and collectors as their competition, most curators I know are themselves collectors of vintage clothing and textiles, though not from the era or of the quality they curate. Museums have pretty strict rules about that. Curators need dealers to help them build and improve their collections. They work hard to develop close and friendly relationships with reputable dealers. My wife, who is a curator, and I are not only collectors, but number at least three dealers as our personal friends. I also am good friends with two Hollywood costumers. What else can I say? David ------------------------------ Subject: Re: CD-ROM Project Date: Tue, 04 Apr 1995 11:52:34 -0400 From: Zachary Kessin I would like to sugest a format for the data on the disk. HTML It has several advantages. 1) Viewers already exist for Mac, Windows, X11/unix and other platforms. 2) It is easy to produce (I run the SCA East Kingdom Web page) 3) It is easy to do cross links which are a good thing. Zach (Sometime HTML contractor) (Guiliam in the SCA) ------------------------------ From: alana_guy@broder.com Date: Tue, 04 Apr 95 13:04:47 Subject: Mildew prevention - please re-send info Hi everybody - I got some mail on this subject from UDSD007@DSIBM.... but my email program ate it. I can't even read the address of the kind person who sent the message, so I don't know whom to reply to! Theoretically, the email gateway's fixed (abandon hope, all ye who enter here). Could you please re-send the info you sent earlier today? Thanks, ALana ------------------------------ From: Itasca000@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 22:52:49 -0400 Subject: Re: CD-ROM Project Could someone update me on the CD-ROM project. I am new to this list and apparently missed most of the discussion. Thanks! Gwen Jackson ------------------------------ From: "Cindy Abel" Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 07:52:18 CDT Subject: 18th c ladies caraco [jacket] pattern Dies anyone on the list know of a circa 1780's caraco (jacket) pattern that is people-sixed and not a 1/8 or 1/16 scake pattern. I'd like to have a friend make me such a jacket for this fall-winter after getting to try on a modern museum mock-up(their's was from a scale pattern I found out and too big on me but I loved the sharp look of it). I found a circa 1760-1770 caraco in a pattern book that is people-sized, but it is too early. I have sized up on photocopiers scale pattern's from Arnold and others to fit dolls, but sizing up to modern adult is beyond me as I've tried it. Any help is appreciated, especially addresses and costs of such a pattern. Cindy Abel Health Sciences Library Creighton University 2500 California Plaza Omaha NE 68178-0400 Phone: 402-280-5144 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Apr 1995 08:07:54 CDT From: SANDY STAEBELL Subject: use of vintage clothing and deaccessioning As a museum curator and registrar, I read with interest the recent posts on the subject of the correctness of using vintage clothing and the issue of deaccessioning of artifacts in museums. I enjoy following the different threads on this list, but doubt that museum curators and costumers will ever reach agreement on the issue of whether or not historic costume should be worn or should be recycled and used in new costuming. Our separate viewpoints are two divergent in this area. I would however like to make a few comments about the process of deaccessioning in museums since several of the posts mentioned this occurrence in museums. My comments should be taken as very brief and general. Extensive articles have been written on this subject. For those of you who are not familiar with the process of deaccessioning, it is not something that happens willy nilly. Most professionally organized and staffed museums have some sort of deaccessions policy. Such a policy is necessary because the focus or mission of a museum often changes over time. With such a change the type of artifacts that are actively sought for the collection may change radically. What was appropriate to collect fifty years ago may not be appropriate today given the museum's current mission. A well-drafted policy permits the staff a museum to go through a step-by-step process of identifiying and selecting artifacts for deaccession. As part of this process it is generally accepted that any sale of artifacts be public to forestall the appearance of impropriety. Also, deaccessioning artifacts does not always mean that they are sold. A range of options exist. Museums sometimes transfer objects to another institution which has a collecting scope more suitable to the specific artifact being considered for deaccessioning. Everyone on this list might not be aware that once someone donates an object to a museum there might be tax implications if the museum tried to return the artifact to he donor. Also, what if he or she is dead? How does the museum staff decide which of this person's heirs receives the artifact? Finally, I would like to point out that in my experience most museums do not deaccession and sell large parts of their collections. Art museums give the general impression of deaccessioning and putting more of their collections up for sale than history or general museums, but this may be the result of the specific needs of these institutions. I am sorry this post has gone on for so long, but I wanted to comment on this one aspect of this topic. The important thing for any museum that engages in deaccessioning is that the policy be well-drafted and the process well-documented. Sandy Staebell The Kentucky Museum wkuvx1.wku.edu (I guess here is where I put in the disclaimer that the sentiments expressed in this post represent my own opinions and not necessarily those of my institution.) ------------------------------ From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Wed, 05 Apr 95 10:50:58 EST Subject: more on cotton To throw a few more cents worth in on the discussion of cotton, this intersting tidbit from "Gerard's Herbal", 1633 ("Thomas Johnson" edition -- he added to the original which was published in 1597), Chapter 33 of Book 2: There is an accurate description of the "bombast" or cotton plant (a low "bush") which yields "fine cotton *wool* the size of "tennis balls". It is described as growing in India, Arabia, Egypt, and the Mediterranean islands, as well as Cyprus and Italy. In German, it is called "baumwool," i.e., "tree wool" (wool that grows on a tree as opposed to a sheep). In England it is known as "cotton," "bombast," or "bombase." It is for "daily use and benefit," indicating that it is in common use, especially as "fustian of the wool itself." Fustian was a common cloth of linen/cotton blend. Therefore, it seems that the term "wool" means "cotton," NOT vice versa (i.e., "cotton' meaning "wool."). Cotton is both the plant and the fabric thereof, while "wool" refers to the *natural* state of cotton (the boll, which looks like a ball of unprocessed wool). Hope this throws a spanner in the works. Hooray for original sources. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 95 08:56:51 PDT From: susanf@EERC.Berkeley.Edu (Susan Fatemi) Subject: thai silks I seem to have lost the original message, but someone wanted the address of Thai Silks. thai silks 252 State St. Los Altos, CA 94022 tel: 415/948-8611 800-722-silk CA only: 800-221-silk call them and ask for their brochure. they also have a fabric club susan fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 11:31:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Julie Cheetham Subject: Re: Wearing period garments I would like to second Fran Grimble's remarks about the wearing of period garments. Collections are maintained for a variety of reasons. Museums may maintain collections for research and study purposes and occasional display. Their function in "preserving for posterity" is a very important one. But because of the specific function of preservation, the items in these collections are available to very few people and thus their usefulness in disseminating knowledge about historic clothing and/or interesting members of the public in historic clothing is extremely limited. Other organizations and individuals maintain clothing collections for educational purposes. My husband and I have a fairly extensive collection of this type. As teachers of vintage dance, we are very interested in how clothing affects movement. We have worn items in our collection for demonstration of dance styling of various periods and the clothing in our collection is handled more than any curator would approve by students in dance classes who wish to learn about period construction, fabrics etc in order to make authentic appearing costumes for balls and exibitions. We also sometimes wear sturdier items from the collection to events with period themes for the enjoyment we and others derive from seeing the lovely clothes. We mount displays of clothing in non-museum environments, such as the state fair, so that those who might never enter a museum costume exhibit may be exposed to historic clothing. We would like to do "trunk shows" for school children after we retire. The bottom line is that educational type collections also have a purpose and value. It is a different purpose and value than served by preserved collections, but, in my opinion, these types of collections serve a need. I might add that no garment in our collection is "museum quality." Because of our budget and because of the use we have for the clothing, much of it is resurrected from the "rag bag." We have spent considerable amounts on repair/restoration and we also store our collection with care. (In fact most museums we've been in do not store their garments "archivally.") Finally, there are clothing collections that are maintained for the pure private pleasure of the collector, just as any other type of collection is maintained for that purpose. Collectors who have invested money, time and interest in their collections have the "right" to enjoy them in any way they wish. Personally, I know many collectors of clothing and do not believe that any of them "abuse" their collections. Most are far too attached to the beautiful pieces to risk destroying them, and if they are worn it is done with care and thoughtfulness. Julie Lassiter Cheetham ------------------------------ End of Volume 276 -----------------------