From: Gretchen Miller <grm+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 19:20:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 280, 4/14/95

The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 280,  April 14, 1995

Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message).

Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to
h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu

Enjoy!

------------------------------
Topics:
Wool and fire retardancy
More cotton! please!
ISO: Advice on spinning wheels
Question and answer: Byzantine costume
On wearing vintage clothing
Keeping trained dress hems clean
Cotton questions: Cotton prices in period
Textile Society offering 
Spinning cotton
Question: Accuracy of costumes in latest "Last of the Mohicans"
Victoria patterns, and ordering question
ISO: Info on California Gold Rush costumes
Question: Seams on 1860's riding costume

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: laurence (four) hewes <rzgw10@fsrams.sps.mot.com>
Subject: Re: #1(2) H-Costume Digest, V... pass from Art
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 95 13:21:31 CDT

> 
> Pam asked
> 
> <Am I correct in interpreting this as saying that wools are more fire
> <retardant than other fibers?  I want to sew and weave for my
> <participation in the SCA, and knowing about the fire retardancy
> <properties of natural fibers would further this purpose.
> 
>      While I am not Caroline, I will answer this.  I was formerly a Musketeer
> in a local Company of shot.  The matchlock, a firearm ignited by a piece of
> cotton rope will shower the shooter with embers.
> 
>    The wool did not burn, it would devolop small burn holes, but they would
> extinguish themselves.  This was not the case with even natural fabrics like
> cotton.  I have seen cotton canvas doublets smolder themselves away, and
> actually had a flame start on the sleeve of a cotton shirt!  Linen shirts
> only now!!
>          
>                                            Ron
> 

--
Four Hewes, 

Fast Static RAM Division, Design Group 
Motorola/Semiconductor Products Sector, Mail Drop: K16
3501 Ed Bluestein Boulevard, Austin  TX 78721
(512) 933-7979 (fax available, too)
RZGW10@email.sps.mot.com

------------------------------
From: "Pam Rowe                                                         
        (Mrs. Jesse Pollard)" <prowe@us1.msrcnavo.navy.mil>
Subject: Cotton, the thread continues (comment)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 15:15:57 -0500 (CDT)

Bryan P. Howard wrote:
> Apologies for the length of my cotton posts, but I'm writing a dissertation
> on related matters...

To Bryan P. Howard and fellow list members,

I wish to state that I have thoroughly enjoyed the discussion as to when
cotton came into common use, both as a word and as a fabric.  I find the
discussion fascinating and useful.  I believe it to be on topic.

Bryan, if you are writing a dissertation on matters related to the
history of cotton, please keep us "posted" as to the state of your
subject matter!! I don't mind the length if the subject is being handled
in an informative manner!

Pam

--<-{@  --<-{@  --<-{@  --<-{@  --<-{@  --<-{@  --<-{@  --<-{@  --<-{@
Pam Rowe (known as Rowanna in SCA)  |  I speak for no one but myself!!
prowe@us1.msrcnavo.navy.mil
Located in soggy south Mississippi!!

------------------------------
From: "Pam Rowe                                                         
        (Mrs. Jesse Pollard)" <prowe@us1.msrcnavo.navy.mil>
Subject: Spinning wheels? (off-topic)
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 15:28:24 -0500 (CDT)

Dear fellow list members,

This is a bit off topic, but does anyone out there know anything about
spinning wheels?  I'm trying to decide whether to buy one or not.  I
think I'd like to try my hand at spinning wool for weaving cloth which
would eventually become re-creation garb.  Please email me.  I have a
line on a wheel, but don't know enough to know if it is a good buy or
not.  I'm a complete novice at spinning and nearly so at weaving.  My
husband knows a lot about weaving, but not enough about spinning to
advise.

Pam

--<-{@  --<-{@  --<-{@  --<-{@  --<-{@  --<-{@  --<-{@  --<-{@  --<-{@
Pam Rowe (Rowanna in the SCA)       |  I speak for no one but myself!!
prowe@us1.msrcnavo.navy.mil         |
Located in soggy south Mississippi!!

------------------------------
From: LDulin@aol.com
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 17:22:39 -0400
Subject: Late byzantine costume help?

I have found several black and white reproductions of late Byzantine
manuscripts in The Last Centuries of Byzantium 1261-1453 and The
Byzantine Lady: Ten Portraits 1250-1500, both by Donald M. Nicol. They
are from: Oxford, Bodleian Library, gr. 35; Lincoln College typicon; and
Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana, Cod. vat. gr. 1851. The portraits from
the first two sources are the typical husband and wife portraits; the
third source is something called "the meet ing of the two princesses."
The Oxford and Lincoln MS depict the women in mid-thigh length tunics
with very wide sleeves over straight floor-length skirts. The tunics all
have very high stand up collars. The fabric depicted is very Turkish,
and the Turks of the period were using loops and buttons to close their
caftans . Would it be reasonable to assume that these ladies' tunics
might button up the back ?
Absolutely no closures are evident in any of my sources. The Vatican MS
shows ladies from the side. They have one long braid of hair thet
reaches their feet. Clothing style is the same silhouette, but the
reproduction is too small to see if they are wearing 2 piece garments.
Does anyone know of any other sources for late Byzantine costuming? Does
anyone know how I would go about getting color reproductions of these
manuscripts?
I have all the usual SCA sources, plus an extensive library, but nothing
on this period.
Any and all help will be appreciated.
Leslie/Lijsbeth

------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 16:41:39 -0500 (EST)
From: dbrowne <dbrowne@indiana.edu>
Subject: Lucet

 My appolgies to all that asked about the lucet info.  I have not been
well, nothing serious just blah.  The information that you requested
should be mailed early next week.  Thanks for your understanding.
--Kathy B.
--Katrinn

------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 95 21:36:23 PDT
From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry)
Subject: Wearing vintage clothes; protecting 1870s hems

I've been off the net a few days, but would like to clarify a few points.

I don't suppose everyone will agree on this--but yes, I do think people
have the right as well as the power to do what they wish with their
personal property, including vintage clothes.

I don't think I'm attributing unworthy motives to curators.  I'm
pointing out that preserving (or not preserving) vintage clothes is a
business issue and that people's views are influenced by their business
and job concerns. I doubt that any profession operates entirely on the
pure plane of ethics.

The price of vintage garments and textiles depends very much on what is
currently fashionable to collect and/or wear, and not much on scarcity. 
For example, Edwardian whites were extremely fashionable for several
years in the 1980s.  At their peak, I saw lingerie blouses priced at
$200, even $300 apiece and lingerie dresses at $700 and $800.  Now
whites are out of fashion.  There are still many of them around and
offered for sale.  But blouses now run $25-$40, and the maximum for
dresses is about $300.  All the Regency dresses I have bought have been
quite reasonably priced--much less than 1870s and 1880s styles, which
are the hottest collectibles right now. In fact, less than some 1940s
women's suits I saw at the most recent show--these are among the hottest
wearables.

The reason you don't see vintage clothes sold cheap in thrift shops
anymore isn't because they're scarcer.  It's because they're fashionable
and profitable.  People sell family clothes to a vintage clothing store
rather than donating them to a thrift shop.  If a thrift shop does sell
some vintage clothes, it can charge more than it used to and therefore
it does.

About devices to keep the hems of 1870s style gowns clean--original
Victorian dresses often have a strip of cotton tape or unpatterned braid
sewn to the inside of the hem and extending slightly (about 1/8 in.)
beyond it, to keep the hem from fraying.  This doesn't help cleanliness
that much but the skirt really does wear better.  1890s skirts stand out
rather stiffly at the hem and this shaping is accomplished partly by hem
braid, but even more by a wide band of stiff interfacing sewn on top of
the underlining.  This doesn't do that much for cleanliness either,
though.

1870s and 1880s trained skirts can be very hard to keep clean and in
good shape.  One technique used on original silk or velvet dresses was
to baste a wide (about 6 in.; it varies) dust ruffle to the inside of
the hem.  The ruffle was usually made by making narrow knife pleats in a
rather stiff, starched organdy-type fabric, though sometimes machine
lace was used. Fabric ruffles are often trimmed with narrow machine
lace.  The ruffle is often ecru or cream color; it looks like a
petticoat ruffle and is very pretty.  Since it is basted on, it can be
removed and washed separately.  

I think this was a very practical idea in the 1870s and 1880s, given the
difficulty of cleaning a silk dress at the time.  However, if the labor
of cleaning reproductions is a real concern I'm not sure a modern person
would feel happier about unpicking a long ruffle, washing it, pressing
in all those tiny pleats, and basting the ruffle on again than they
would about dumping the entire dress on a commercial dry cleaner.  I do
things like this, but I know a lot of people who wouldn't.

Fran Grimble

------------------------------
From: RCarnegie@aol.com
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 03:24:58 -0400
Subject: Re: #1(2) H-Costume Digest, V...

I just want to take this moment to welcome Mr. Rickman to the group.  I
am familiar with some of your work.

I am very impressed by the Sutter book.

                                                       R Carnegie

------------------------------
From: Mrs C S Yeldham <csy20688@ggr.co.uk>
Date: 10 Apr 95 10:29:00 BST
Subject: Cotton

I have found this dicussion fascinating - and a useful indication of how
careful we have to be with regard to sources!

Does anyone have any information about the cost of cotton, starting as
an expensive luxury item in the late medieval period, and desending
rapidly (I believe) in the 19th with the growth of the Lancashire cotton
mills?  It would be useful, especially since I am told (but no source
quoted) that
cotton was very expensive in the 16th century, equivalent to linen
today, whereas linen was more like cotton today.

This may be true even if grown in Europe.  Rice grown in Italy in the
16th century and exported to England was very expensive.

BTW I understand Egyptian cotton (which dates back to Ancient Egypt) to
be very long staple, enabling the production of very fine cloth -
perhaps the long staple made it easier to weave?

Another factor may be that cotton likes very hot, humid conditions when
being spun and woven (read the accounts of the early Lancashire cotton
mills, before factory inspectors).

After writing the above, I read the new messages.  On Byzantium, I do
have the following info.  there is a study day at the British Museum
tomorrow, 11 April on 'The Textile Trade between Byzantium and the West:
 Economic and Artistic exchanges', arranged with the Medieval Dress and
Textile
Society.  (I would like to go but don't think I can get/afford the time
off work).  Speakers are:

Professor David Jacoby of Hebrew University of Jerusalem
Silk in western Byzantium at time of 4th Crusade,
Dr Anna Muthesius of the West Surrey College of Art and Design
Byzantine silks in the Latin West - political or artistic.
Hero Granger-Taylor of the British Museum and Dr Zaga Gavrilovic of the
University of Birmingham
The Belt of Sebastokrator Branko Mladenovic - 14th century embroidery,
Donald King, ex V&A, President of MEDAS,
Myth and symbol in Byzantine silk design,
Professor Judith Herrin, University of Princeton on Theophano and her
marriage contract, and
Dr Jonathan Shepard, University of Cambridge,
Archaeological finds around the Black Sea

Some of the names might be useful starting places for reference searches.

Sounds wonderful, doesn't it!  Anyway, my next project is to get in
touch with the Medieval Dress and Textile Society.

Caroline

------------------------------
From: jennyb@pdd.3com.com
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 12:58:37 BST
Subject: Re: Cotton

Caroline wrote:-
>BTW I understand Egyptian cotton (which dates back to Ancient Egypt) to be
>very long staple, enabling the production of very fine cloth - perhaps the
>long staple made it easier to weave?

I think it's down to the spinning rather than the weaving. If one takes
two lots of raw fibre with identical diameter & strength but differing
lengths one can spin the longer fibre into a finer thread.

Other things which affect how fine a thread one can be spun are: the
strength of the individual fibres; their diameter, and how slippery they
are.

Naturally if one can spin a finer thread it will weave into a finer cloth.

Jennifer

------------------------------
From: cpecourt@mhv.net
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 08:58:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Bodice style question

Hello
 I was watching my copy of Last of the Mohicans again last night for the
zillionth time and thought of a question. Although I know that movie
costumes are rarely accurate, I was wondering how closely the style of
bodice and skirt in the movie matched history. I was also wondering how
the style of bodice differed from those bodices of the 16th and 17th
centuries in England and Europe. I rather liked the actresses bodices,
the ones that were not part of a complete dress but more of a
bodice/skirt combination and was also curious on how to adapt my current
ones to look similar. Where did they put the boning.  Well..those are my
questions, I hope they are not silly ones.
Chantal

------------------------------
From: "Cindy Abel" <BRUJNE@hslpharmacy.creighton.edu>
Date:          Mon, 10 Apr 1995 07:56:50 CDT
Subject:       dress patterns from Amazon Drygoods in "Victoria"

I just got my May issue of "Victoria" and on pages 84-93 some enchanting
circa 1830-1840 reproduction dresses made from patterns from Amazon
Drygoods are pictured.  I am especially interested in ordering the dress
pattern of the dress pictured on page 85(unfortunately the Laura Ashley
fabric is no longer available.

I've heard a lot of pro and con on the list about Amazon.  "Victoria"
provides an 800 number for Amazon and you can order their catalogs
through "Victoria"

However, I'd prefer to order directly from Amazon if possible as I'd
like to make one of the dresses pictured for myself with all the spring
and summer weddings coming up andone of these dresses would be
different, wouldn't "date," and if made in cotton or calico would be
cooler to wear than some wynthetic modern thing.

Does anyone out here have the "Victoria" issue, recognize the pattern
and have any idea how sizes run?  I'd like to not sound like a complete
dolt when ordering.  Also, is the pattern an Amazon exclusive or is it
available through Past Patterns or someone else.

Many thanks for any help
Cindy Abel
Health Sciences Library
Creighton University
2500 California Plaza
Omaha NE 68178-0400
Phone: 402-280-5144

------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 9:22:46 EDT
From: <drickman@state.de.us> (David W. Rickman)
Subject: re: Re: #1(2) H-Costume Digest, V...

Hello,

My thanks to (Mr?Ms?) Carnegie for welcoming me to this mailing list.  I
am glad to be here.

Regarding my _Sutter's Fort Costume Manual_, I was asked just last week
to revise and expand the work to include the California Gold Rush. 
Currently, the publication covers the costumes worn by all the ethnic
groups and all the occupations one would have seen at this small, but
cosmopolitan, California outpost in circa 1845.

If anyone has information regarding Gold Rush era costumes, 1848-1855,
whether American, Chilean, Mexican, Chinese, Australian or whatever else
may have turned up in California in those years, I would be most
grateful for their assistance.  Thank you.

David 

------------------------------
From: Marsha Hamilton <mhamilto@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: 1860's skirt (finishing)
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 09:54:27 -0400 (EDT)

I am making an 1860's riding costume.  I have period waists so I know
how the seams should be finished on the jacket but I do not have a
period skirt to refer to.  Does anyone know how the seams would be done?
Would they be pinked, french seams, bound with bias tape, hand overcast?
Or would even a riding skirt be lined?  I appreciate anyone looking at
skirt seams for any type of mid 19th century pieces you may have access
to. Thanks in advance.

I remain poised at the sewing machine until I hear how to proceed.

Marsha

------------------------------
From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 09:24:50 EST
Subject: Re: Late byzantine costume help?

To Leslie, inquiring about Byzantine costume:

Are you sure that's just a floor-length skirt rather than a complete
underdress?

Does the tunic show a slit down center front from the collar? If so, it
probably pulls on over the head, rather than buttoning. See if you can
get a closer look.

For more examples of Byzantine clothing, see if you can find an art book
showing the Ravenna mosaics. That should show you lots of examples.

Kathleen
kathleen@anstec.com

------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 06:38:52 -0800
From: delarorm@sce.com (Ruby de la Rosa)
Subject: Re: dress patterns from Amazon Drygoods in "Victoria"

I am interested in this information  as well. please post to list. thanks r

>I just got my May issue of "Victoria" and on pages 84-93 some
>enchanting circa 1830-1840 reproduction dresses made from patterns........
..........................................................complete dolt
when ordering.  Also, is the pattern an Amazon
>exclusive or is it available through Past Patterns or someone else.
>
>Many thanks for any help
>Cindy Abel
>Health Sciences Library
>Creighton University
>2500 California Plaza
>Omaha NE 68178-0400
>Phone: 402-280-5144

------------------------------ End of Volume 280 -----------------------