From: Gretchen Miller Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 17:29:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 290, 5/2/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 290, May 2, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: Costumes in "Rob Roy" The first dictionary? Question and answer: History of cordoroy Capes as shields ISO: Demarly's "Working Dress" On chastity belts ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Apr 95 14:25:16 EST From: "KATHLEEN NORVELL" Subject: Rob Roy costumes For Chantal and others who asked about the costumes in the film "Rob Roy". If you are contemplating doing an 18th century Highland outfit, DO NOT use this film as an example. There was almos nothing right about the Highland clothing. (I will let others critique the English clothes somewhere else). Here are the problems. Men: The men wore some sort of leather buskins on their legs. I have no idea where this came from.If Highlanders did not go barefoot (and they frequently did), they wore *cuarans*, skin shoes, described in Burt's "Letters from a Gentleman in the North of Scotland" c. 1730--"But some I have seen shod with a kind of Pumps, made out of a raw cow-hide, with the Hair turned outward, which being ill-made, the Wearer's foot looked something like those of a rough-footed Hen or Pigeon. These are called 'Quarrants' [cuarans] and are not only offensive to the sight; but intolerable to the Smell of those who are near them." (i.e., they were made of skin cut right off the carcase and laced onto the foot with a thong -- not tanned or anything). Hose were worn "no higher than the Thick of the calf" (Burt's Letters). The philibeg (small kilt), which Liam Neeson wore, was first documented 10 or so years after the film takes place (1713). It was supposedly invented c. 1723- 25 by an Englishman. Common Highlanders (not gentlemen or chieftains) were much more likely to wear the great kilt (breacan mor) because they could roll up in it and sleep, cover their shuolders or heads; gentlemen who could afford a waistcoat and/or coat would not need the top half of the plaid. Rev. James Broome(1700) describes the men as wearing "mantles streaked or striped with divers colors, about their shoulders which they call pladden" and Martin (1703,"A Description of the Western Islands of Scotland") describes trews [worn in the film by the Duke of Argyll] and thegreat kilt and specifically states that you can tell where a man is from by his plaid (not his family or clan)-- "This Humour (i.e., the stripes and plaids) is a different thro' the main Land of the Highlands in so far that they who have seen those Places is (sic) able, at the first view of a Man's Plaid, to guess the place of his Residence." He goes on to say that the plaid is pinned with a *bodkin* of wood or bone (NOT a penannular brooch -- those were worn by women) and belted around the waist."Memoirs of Mareshal Keith (b. 1693) (first published 1843). described the Battle of Sherrifmuir in which he took part, 13 Nov. 1715 (2 yrs. after the movie is set)--"but above all they have another piece of the same stuff, of about six yards long which they tie about them in such a manner that it covers their thighs and *all their body when they please, but commonly it's fixed on their left shoulder, and leaves their right arm free* (empahsis mine)." He further says that they sometimes throw off the plaid entirely before fighting. I have not seen any contemporary illustrations of Highlanders wearing shirts that laced up the front. 17th and 18th century shirts were slit down the center front part way and had a button closing at the collar. Earlier Highland *leines* did not lace up the front either. Highlanders commonly wore knit bonnets on their heads. These were similar to soft berets,usually blue, but sometimes grey or black. Mentioned by Martin (1703), John Macky (1723),and others, but earlier descriptions and illustrations show this. The film also shows the members of one family all wearing the same sett of tartan, although not any clan tartan that I recognized and NOT the "Rob Roy" tartan (at least they didn't do THAT). This is problematic, because copntemporary decriptions don't mention that anything matched or didn't match, only that there seemed to be regional plaids or tartans. The painting of the Battle of Culloden was done some time after the fact, but used real Highland prisoners captured there as models. They are wearing hose, plaids, and jackets all of different setts. Women: Not an airisaid in sight. The airisaid was the female equivalent of the breacan mor, an all encompassing tartan garment worn by women. Martin (1703) says "The ancient Dress wore by the Women, and which is yet wore by some of the Vulgar, called *Arisad*, is a white *Plade*, having a few small stripes of black, blew and red; it reached from the Neck to the Heels, and was tied before on the Breast with a Buckle of Silver or Brass,according to the Quality of the Person." The buckle, or brooch was sometimes the size of a plate and was engraved, or had a smaller brooch set with a "large piece of Chrystal, or some finer Stone". "The PLad being pleated all round, was tied with a Belt below the Breast; the Belt was of Leather, and several pieces of Silver intermixed with the Leather like a Chain." The belt had a plate on the end of it and was decorated with stones or silver. Martin continues."They wore sleeves of Scarlet Cloth, closed at the emnds as Men's Vests, with gold lace round 'em, having Plate Buttons set with fine Stones. The Head dress was a fine *kerchief* of Linen strait [i.e. tight] about the Head, hanging down the back taper-wise..." Unmarried women wore a "snood", which seems to be a ribbon wrapped around the front of the head and tying a ponytail in back. There are illustrations of this, although they are later than the time period I am addressing. Burt (1730) describes the dress of the ladies of Inverness: "The Plaid is the Undress of the Ladies; and to a genteel Woman, who adjusts it witha good Air, is a becoming veil. It is made of Silk or fine Worsted, chequered with various lively colours, two Breadths wide, and three yards in Length; it is brought over the head and may hide or discover the Face..." Various writers state that the women go barefoot, but women probably wore cuarans, and when available and affordable, regular leather shoes. There are no contemporary descriptions I have seen that talk about women wearing petticoats (skirts) or bodices. In my living history group we wear them, primarily for warmth. I think they were not mentioned because they were not SEEN. An Airisaid covers everything, especially if it is worn over the head. Anyway, sorry to go on so long, but I wanted to give documentation for my flames. There were a lot more inaccurate things in the film besides the Highland clothing, but that's another topic. Hope this helps. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ From: Edward Wright Date: Mon, 24 Apr 95 17:40:32 TZ Subject: RE: Cotton again again .. | It's very hard to own anything that does not exist. Samuel Johnson wrote the | first English dictionary (A Dictionary of the English Language, April 1755), | and he was born a century after whoever was Shakespeare probably died (and | we're *not*going into *that* here). How many of your other statements are | asumptions? Sorry, Samuel Johnson did not write the first English dictionary, any more Lee Harvey Oswald (or whoever the conspiracy buffs are onto this week) wrote Shakespeare. A little research would have shown you that Johnson's dictionary was based on Nathan Bailey's Universal Eymological English Dictionary and Dictionarium Bitannicum, published in 1721 and 1730, respectively. Nathan Bailey didn't write the first dictionary, either. If you had been paying attention, you would have noticed that both Bryan and myself quoted definitions from dictionaries published much earlier than that. Now, what was that you were saying about assumptions? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 22:45:31 -0300 (ADT) From: "Joy K. Pye MacSwain" Subject: Cordroy Greetings: Could anyone tell me the orgin of `cordroy'? I am planning on constructing a costume using a cordroy but was uncertain if it was truely a `mediveal' fabric or not. Thanks for your help. Elyene ------------------------------ From: Edward Wright Date: Mon, 24 Apr 95 20:21:56 TZ Subject: Re: hemming cloaks | It was around his shoulders for approximately three seconds before | he'd whipped it off, wrapped it around his left arm, seized a sword, | and assumed a guard position (both arms out, side-on to an attacker). | | "Yeah," he said happily, "it works great!" | | Needless to say, I was sorta surprised. (*I* never use *my* clothes | for target practice!) I'm pretty reluctant to line a cloak with silk | if it's likely to be skewered. Unless anybody on the list knows how to | render silk un-skewerable..... Don't worry -- the fault is his, not yours. He shouldn't be wrapping it around his arm, he should be drapping it over his arm. It's the weight of the cloth hanging down that absorbs the force of the blow, not the thickness of the material. If it's wrapped around his arm, it will be skewered (along with the arm) no matter what material you use. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 95 10:00:41 EST From: "KATHLEEN NORVELL" Subject: Re: Cordroy A fabric called "corduroy" was made in the Middle Ages, but we really don't know what it was, only that it probably wasn't what today's fabric of the same name is. If you want to use modern corduroy for an SCA outfit, I suggest using the waleless type that looks like velveteen. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 21:56:25 +0800 From: writan@iinet.com.au (Writan Consulting) Subject: Apologies >| It's very hard to own anything that does not exist. Samuel Johnson wrote the >| first English dictionary (A Dictionary of the English Language, April 1755), >| and he was born a century after whoever was Shakespeare probably died (and >| we're *not*going into *that* here). How many of your other statements are >| asumptions? > >Sorry, Samuel Johnson did not write the first English dictionary, any >more Lee Harvey Oswald (or whoever the conspiracy buffs are onto this >week) wrote Shakespeare. A little research would have shown you that >Johnson's dictionary was based on Nathan Bailey's Universal Eymological >English Dictionary and Dictionarium Bitannicum, published in 1721 and >1730, respectively. Nathan Bailey didn't write the first dictionary, >either. If you had been paying attention, you would have noticed that >both Bryan and myself quoted definitions from dictionaries published >much earlier than that. Now, what was that you were saying about assumptions? Well, that'll teach me to listen to my lecturers . Maybe they meant it was the first *decent* dictionary ;) , or maybe it's been too many decades since I was at Uni. But you are still missing the point. I went on to say that this can *never* be resolved; language is an art not a science, and you cannot measure things with (or by) it. The way I describe something today (and I am a technical writer) may not be the way I describe something next month (I try to keep some consistency! :-) ). We can only make an educated guess *for each occurrence* of a word, based on available evidence. And you can't make a blanket assumption that everyone in the English speaking world in an entire century will mean the same thing when they use a word. This argument has had little to do with costume, and much more to do with linguistics (my other major). You guys should go and argue in a linguistics group, or in private. And yes, I wasn't paying attention after the first umpteen postings, many of which were duplicates. Please fix your mailer - I have to pay for endless requotes and duplicated mailings. Apologies for a long message. Now, let's get back to costuming :-). /anne... ------------------------------ From: EVANKLEY@legacy.Calvin.EDU Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 16:35:35 EDT Subject: DeMarly's "Working Dress" I've been trying to locate this book ever since it appeared on this list. I don't know who posted the info but I have not been able to find it with just title & author. Could whoever told us about it give more info re publisher & date, availability etc? Many thanks! Elaine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 95 15:10:18 PDT From: susanf@EERC.Berkeley.Edu (Susan Fatemi) Subject: chastity belts This same question came up on the Museum list and I saved some of the responses, including a bibliographic search a librarian in Wales did. I will be happy to forward the file to the list or to the original requestor, but I don't want to go back and request permission from the museum list people (I could delete their names, I guess, but they should get credit, and as they are in the info biz anyway, I can't think they would mind) So let me know if anyone wants the "chastity belt file". Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 95 16:32:02 PDT From: susanf@EERC.Berkeley.Edu (Susan Fatemi) Subject: belts ok. i've had 3 requests in the last hour. while not exactly a quorum, it makes me think I should send the chastitiy belt file to the list with all apologies, caveats, etc. and thereby risking flames, fire and brimstone, etc. (really, I'm sure the original people wouldn't mind) So i will send it by separate post. Susan Fatemi (the phantom forwarder) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 95 16:32:39 PDT From: susanf@EERC.Berkeley.Edu (Susan Fatemi) This information was garnered from the MUSEUM-L Digest - 5 Jan 1995 and is forwarded without permission of the original correspondents 1. Chastity belts - truth or fiction? ------------------------------ >Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 20:34:31 +1000 >From: Peter Volk >Subject: Chastity belts - truth or fiction? I am trying to assemble a small paper on the facts behind the stories/legends/myths/recycled gossip that circulate on the subject of chastity belts. However, I am finding it almost impossible to find any primary or reliable secondary information on the subject. This may well be because I'm in Australia, which would explain the lack of primary info, but I can't find *anything* beyond salacious stories, bad jokes and allegorical cartoons. As far as I can establish, the damned things never existed - which will make the paper a very small one indeed! Can anyone on this list recommend to me a source for information on this topic? Does anyone actually have one of these contraptions in their collections? And if so, can you share with me any data you may have on the object? I know that this might be taken as a joke posting. However, I am serious. I am a technician in the history section of the Queensland Museum, and I deal with an enquiry on this subject on the average of once every four or five months. Discussions with librarians and staff from other museums indicate that they, too, get this question about as frequently. Thank you in advance for any info you can offer Peter Volk Senior Technician Social History Section Queensland Museum Australia email p.volk@mailbox.uq.oz.au ------------------------------ >Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 11:53:28 GMT >From: Diane Walker >Subject: Re: Chastity belts - truth or fiction? I was sure that I had seen contraptions described as chastity belts used in the Middle Ages so I've done a quick search in LOCIS and MELVYL to see if there is any literature. The results from MELVYL are mailable so here they are below. I trust you are serious. However, I'm amazed at the number of enquiries you quoted. I hate to think what this might indicate about Australians! Search request: FI SU CHASTITY BELTS Search result: 6 records at all libraries Display: DISPLAY 1. Bonneau, Alcide, 1836-1904. Padlocks and girdles of chastity. New York : Big Dollar Books, 1932, c1931. UCLA URL GT 2810 P136 2. Dingwall, Eric John. The girdle of chastity; a fascinating history of chastity belts. [1st American ed. New York, Clarion Press, c1959]. UCB Main GT2810 .D5 1959 UCD Shields GT2810.D5 1959 UCLA URL GT 2810 D61g 1959 UCR Rivera GT2810 .D5 UCSB Main Lib GT2810 .D5 1959 UCSD Central GT2810 .D5 1959, XX UCSF Library GT2810 .D584g 1959 History CSL Main Lib GT 2810 D5 1959 General Coll 3. Dingwall, Eric John. The girdle of chastity : a medico-historical study / by Eric John Dingwall. Paris: Divan, 1922. UCI Main Lib GT2810 .D55 Protected Collection 4. Dingwall, Eric John. The girdle of chastity: a medico-historical study, by Eric John Dingwall ... London, G. Routledge & Sons, 1931. UCB Main GT2810 .D5 5. Padlocks and girdles of chastity. New York, n. p., 1928. UCR Rivera GT2810 .P3 Spec Coll UCSF Library No call number History NonCirc 6. Rywell, Martin, 1905-1972. Sex control; curious customs of medieval times [by] Taylor Hemingway [pseud.]. Harriman, Tenn., Pioneer Press [c1953]. UCLA URL GT 2810 R98s ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mrs Diane A Walker Head of Training Tel: 0222-874215 or 874875 Computing Centre Fax: 0222-874285 University of Wales Cardiff e-mail: walker@cardiff.ac.uk 40-41 Park Place Cardiff CF1 3BB ------------------------------ >Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 15:38:17 +0100 >From: Philippe MENNECIER >Subject: Re: Chastity belts - truth or fiction? Les "ceintures de chastete'" existent ! Il y en a au Muse'e de Cluny (muse'e du Moyen Age), =E0 Paris : Muse'e de Cluny, 6, place Paul Painleve' 75005 PARIS Bonne chance ! Philippe Mennecier ------------------------------ >Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 13:55:34 +0100 >From: Annika Tyrfelt >Subject: Re: Chastity belts - truth or fiction? Peter Volker asked about chastity belts: Nordiska museet in Stockholm, Sweden has a chastity belt in it's collection. The accession number is 32.371. It's made of iron and leather (and looks terrible...). I'm forwarding your question to the Department of Collection and ask them to give you what information we have about this object. Annika Tyrfelt Nordiska museet P O Box 278 20 S-115 93 Stockholm Sweden --------------------- >Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 12:54:04 -0500 >From: Ann Morton >Subject: Re: Chastity belts - truth or fiction? This sparked a memory of something I'd all but forgotten about... > >I am trying to assemble a small paper on the facts behind the >stories/legends/myths/recycled gossip that circulate on the subject of> >chastity belts. I was doing fieldwork/research at the Dorchester Museum in Dorchester, England (in 1987, I think). I had dinner at a local place on the main street (name escapes me), and was joined by rep for the Small Business Council--the gov't body responsible for overseeing funding, operations etc.. for local small business or cottage industries. They are mostly to provide assistance and keep an eye on regulations. Anyway, he started telling me about his clients (Dorset was his area)--and one of them made chastity belts. He was a blacksmith in the Dorchester area, and the chastity belts were a "hot item." His wife modeled them at the local craft shows for him. I have no idea who bought them (London bankers?). But somewhere, the business should be listed. Ann Morton mrtn@troi.cc.rochester.edu ------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 95 16:36:50 PDT From: susanf@EERC.Berkeley.Edu (Susan Fatemi) Subject: belts, again P.S. Whoever is looking for this information should really do a search at your local public library or college library. There is info out there. you could also ask your librarian to see if anything is available from other libraries. susan (this is about chastity belts) ------------------------------ End of Volume 290 -----------------------