From: Gretchen Miller Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 18:31:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 291, 5/3/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 291, May 3, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: Leine vs Leinidh DeMarly's "Working Dress" Question and answers: References for renaissance costuming Good source of wool and linen for reenactors Vintage dance events, SF Bay area Question and answers: Late medieval Irish dress Question about Gehret's "Rural Pennsylvania Clothing" Psychology of wearing a corset 1917 fashion quota ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RCarnegie@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 21:09:14 -0400 Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume ... Subject: Italian Ren. Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 8:18:18 Recently, after a conversation with a fellow costuming friend of mine, I learned of a book on Italian Renaissance costuming by a woman whose last name is Beer-barri(sp?) I very much want to track down this book as well as any other that deals specifically with Italian Ren. costuming. Any suggestions out there? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 14:44:57 -0700 From: Alison Kondo Subject: Ren. Book I'd reccommend "Renaissance Dress in Italy 1400-1500" by Jacqueline Herald, pub. by Bell & Hyman, London. It's part of the History of Dress Series. I think there's one for 1300-1400, but by a different author. I think I'm the original poster for the "Working Dress" book. My apologies for the incomplete information, I'll try to give more complete creferences in future. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Apr 95 17:39 CDT From: tallison@mcs.com (Tim Allison) Subject: fabric source I picked this up from the SCA list. Thought it might be of use Carol Mitchell > >From: folo@prairienet.org (F.L. Watkins) >Date: Wed, 26 Apr 95 00:40:33 CDT >Subject: Re: [sca-middle] History or m... > >For a good source of linen and wool (good quality; reasonable >prices; we've done shows with them): > Gourdon & Elley > Wool & Linen Merchants Through the Centuries > 6609 Northcliff Avenue > Brooklyn, OH 44144 > 216/459-2803 > >They are reenactors serving the needs of reenactors. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Apr 95 18:48:13 PDT From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: San Francisco Bay Area Vintage Dance Classes VINTAGE DANCE CLASSES The East Bay Vintage Dance Society schedule for May and June is: April 29: Charleston May 6: Victorian dance MAY 13: SPECIAL WORKSHOP ON BALLROOM MINUET OF THE BAROQUE & REGENCY PERIODS May 20: Victorian dance May 27: Victorian dance June 3: Victorian dance June 10: Victorian dance June 17: Victorian dance June 24: Victorian dance Victorian dances will include the complete La Hungroise, several versions of the Varsouvienne, several versions of the York, racket variations in 2/4 and 3/4 time, and 5/4 waltz. All classes will be held on Saturday mornings, 10:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. at St. Johns Presbyterian Church 2727 College Avenue, Room 203 Berkeley, California The price is $6/person. No partner required. This is a regular series of weekly classes that will continue in upcoming months. For further information, call Clare Peterson at (510) 223-8233. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Apr 95 19:23:04 PDT From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Italian Renaissance book The book on Italian Renaissance dress someone mentioned is _Dress in Italian Painting 1460-1500, by Elizabeth Birbari, published by John Murray in 1975. It is out of print and over a period of years I have never seen a used copy for sale. In other words your best bet is a library, probably interlibrary loan. If you're interested in this period the book is worth tracking down (along with the Herald book, which I have seen, in fact bought, used). Fran Grimble ------------------------------ From: Kjotvi@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 00:30:11 -0400 Subject: Medieval Irish costume? I am looking for information on the traditional Irish costume from before the 1500's. My sources mention a heavily pleated and gathered knee length linen shirt or tunic (something vaguely like a civil war Burnside blouse perhaps?), which the wealthy would "rub with saffron". I am working on a how-to pamphlet about wearing the Scottish belted plaid and wish to have a chapter on the history of scottish dress. Nothing overly detailed, but hopefully more detailed than what I've found so far, as most books on Scots costume are mainly interested in prooving whether or not the plaid was used, not what was used instead. Any information or guidance would be warmly appreciated. Kjotvi@aol.com ------------------------------ From: BPH3213@ACS.TAMU.EDU Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 23:37:14 -0500 (CDT) Subject: need help from Gehret's Rural PA Clothing Hi All, My copy of Gehret's Rural Pennsylvania Clothing is missing page 275, and there is something I need on that page. To get a copy I have to do ILL which takes about two weeks, so I was hoping one of you who owns the book can help. I need to know the reference she assigns to the letter "C" and "CS" in her glossary. Also "AE" while you're there please. If someone has the time and inclination to look this up for me, I'd appreciate it. Please send to me privately, not to the list, to avoid clutter. Thanks, Bryan bph3213@acs.tamu.edu or Baloo@tamu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Apr 95 10:50:59 EST From: "KATHLEEN NORVELL" Subject: Re: Medieval Irish costume? Let me highly recommend H.F. McClintock's "Old Irish and Highland Dress." It has been out of print for 45 years, but is still the best book I have encountered on the subject. If you cannot find a copy on Interlibrary Loan, please let me know.I have a copy. Also Maraied Dunleavy's more recent book, the title of which escapes me. I'm sure the usual people on this list have the title. The shirt you mention was the "leine" or saffron shirt that was worn for centuries by both the Irish and Highland Scots. It continued to be worn until about 1600. The first mention of the great kilt ("breacan mor") or belted plaid as we know it occurs about 1600. Up to then, Highlanders were wearing the leine and trews like the Irish. We have discussed this topic and similar ones. Perhaps you can get a copy of the postings. If you want any more details, maybe we can go off-line with the discussion, unless there are others out there who want similar information. Let me know. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 08:32:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Tracy Miller Subject: Re: Medieval Irish costume? On Thu, 27 Apr 1995, KATHLEEN NORVELL wrote: > The shirt you mention was the "leine" or saffron shirt that was worn for > centuries by both the Irish and Highland Scots. It continued to be worn until > about 1600. The first mention of the great kilt ("breacan mor") or belted plaid > as we know it occurs about 1600. Up to then, Highlanders were wearing the leine > and trews like the Irish. I have seen these worn in the SCA and at Ren Faires with a drawstring in the sleeves. Is this accurate? I have been unable to tell from period drawings. Also, I have seen some Elizabethan drawings showing the Irish wearing what looks to be a ruff around the bottom of their jackets. What are these? > > We have discussed this topic and similar ones. Perhaps you can get a copy of > the postings. If you want any more details, maybe we can go off-line with the > discussion, unless there are others out there who want similar information. Let > me know. I would definately be interested. I have been waiting for a thread like this and was about to ask the same questions. Thanks, Tracy ------------------------------ Date: 27 Apr 95 13:24:41 EDT From: Dee Wilson <100545.3105@compuserve.com> Subject: The psychology of corset wearing My question comes from my research into social values as applied the history of domestic medicine and health 1750 - 1960. Many costume reference books describe the use of the corset as a fashion aid. Perhaps there was a related and deeper aspect ? Would a 18/19 (and perhaps early 20C) WOMAN tell us that her corset had the following advantages / disadvantages ? ADVANTAGES A firm corset forced the wearer into an upright carriage, convincing her she was superior to classes lower than herself who were not so vigourously corseted, nor so upright. These lower classes saw the upright carriage as evidence of class superiority. Bearing and deportment were evidence of class and good breeding. To wear a tight corset all day is easier if you have been accustomed to it from an early age. Therefore, anyone remaining at ease in a tight corset had parents who could afford such dedication to their children. Whilst 19C working women wore corsets, it was the middle & upper class who wore them very tight, thereby prohibiting physical work. You therefore made a powerful statement about your father's income if unmarried, or your husband's if married. In a class aware society you are very keen to prove your actual or desired position in the pecking order. In the late 19c women could relax in the afternoon in a teagown which hid the absence of tight stays....so there was some time of comfort. ( Interestingly when teagowns first appeared hey were for married women only. Younger women were expected to display their figures ( eg suffer) all day) ! DISADVANTAGES A fashionable corset might be uncomfortable to wear, but you are not willing to admit it because it implies you are either not up to the fashion, or you have not been brought up in such corsetry. In any case women were supposed to be meek and non complaining. Several 19C writers comment that frumpish women had thick waists, and to be called a frump was a real insult. Doctors might tell you that tight corsets were harmful, but you had little understanding of the human body, and it was not fashionable to talk of 'insides'. Your education had concentrated on the need for elegance (husband catching) and not human biology. Your comments are welcome ! Dee 100545.3105@compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Apr 95 13:48:30 EST From: "KATHLEEN NORVELL" Subject: Re[2]: Medieval Irish costume? To answer Tracy's questions about Irish dress, first of all, I haven't seen indications of how the sleeves fastened, so drawstrings probably work as well as anything else. Frequently, the sleeves were slit, and the arm was slipped out of the cuff of the sleeve, and the sleeve was left to hang. This seems to indicate a closed cuff of some sort, possibly buttoned or tied at the wrist -- this would be preferable. As to what that "ruff" at the bottom of the jacket is, it's a bad representation of pleats, and frequently makes the Irishman look like he's wearing a tutu! The jacket was short, like a bolero, with a pleated band at the bottom. Dunleavy shows examples of the pleats being sewn down with a loose stitch both at the top, where it's joined to the body of the jacekt, and at the bottom, where the pleats are held loosely in place with a running thread. Also, the shirt (leine) is very long and is pulled up over the belt and left to hang in folds. Sometimes this is also drawn as pleats or a "ruff". If you look at enough contemporary drawings of "wild" Irishmen, you begin to see common artistic conventions, which need to be interpreted. I have a friend who does medieval Irish and he looks like he walked out of one of those illustrations. He was delighted when Dunleavy's conclusions matched his own independent research. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 12:21:18 -0700 From: Alison Kondo Subject: 1917 fashion quote I ran across this in "Textiles & Costume Design" by Evelyn Peters Ellsworth, published in 1917. "Some of the latest (fashion) costumes are so grotesque that we pause in awestruck interrogation. We are more confused than we have ever been if we long to follow the fashions & yet be well-dressed, because the designs that are shown in the magazines & the costumes that are displayed in the shops, are a hectic, wild, Arabian Nights jumble of turkish trousers & Turkish pointed slippers walking out of immodest skirts-a wild Russian ballet of tilting lamp shades, vari-coloured swan's down bodices, coloured furs, bloomers & trouserettes & brilliant Poirot headdresses. How is it possible to select a suitable gown from all this?" Omitting the references to M. Poirot, I've felt the same way looking at some recent fashion offerings. Alison ------------------------------ From: Tiepolo2@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 15:21:49 -0400 Subject: Re: The psychology of corsets In response to Dee's question about the psychology of wearing corsets: In her recent book, Sex and Suits, Anne Hollander oberves the following about the psychology of wearing corsets: "it should not be assumed that all the women of the past were angry victims in their long skirts and tight stays, and felt forced into helplessness because of them ... overwhelming evidence suggests that this normal female gear provided deep satisfaction for centuries. It gave women the sense of completeness that acceptable clothing always gives, which is its true comfort. Such comfort is an inward satisfaction, and obtains even in solitude; it does not require social or sexual display to have its effect. Plenty of women wore tight stays and full petticoats with the personal sense of being comfortable dressed ... Extreme tight-lacing ... was always a very rare custom ... Most corsetting simply gave a neat line to the figure, and supported the correct fit of the bodice and the right hang of the skirt rather than primarily imposing an unbearable grip around the body. The grip was firm, rather; and since it produced both elegance and countenance, it was often more reassuring than troublesome ... By suggesting a certain self-respect, it had a protective character. In the erotic mode, it provided a dynamic difference between the sleek dressed figure and the soft nude body. For the four centuries before the later nineteenth, in other words, women seem to have had no trouble feeling real in their stays and long skirts ... For most women, [stays] clearly offered many more positive pleasures than constant martyrdom. Not only male but female sexual fantasy was bound up with them; they answered to a broad range of imaginative needs." (138-42) While Hollander's assertions are presumably controversial and while I lack the historical knowledge to evaluate them, I must say that they do bear out what I have observed when I have corseted women for plays and historical re-enactments, and when I myself have worn corsets for plays, parties, or historical recreation purposes. If not outrageously tight, corsets do seem to provide many women with a paradoxical sense of power, elegance, and grandeur, possibly a vestige of the feeling of class superiority that they may have once provided. Most women I know who have worn them have described them as surprisingly comfortable and fun to wear, because of this sense of power and ladylike elegance, and because they seem to provide a certain degree of bodily stimulation, often compared to a hug, and certainly erotic to some degree. This stimulation, coupled with the fact that corsets do seem to undeniably make women wearing them even more attractive to men, increases and sexualizes the woman's sense of poer in a corset. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the conventional analysis that corsets made women into ornaments, unfit for work, but I am saying that I agree with Hollander's assertion that this is only part of the story. Well-made corsets are surprisingly easy for even a modern woman to get used to, and when she does get used to one, I find that she often enjoys them in a way that may shed some light on why many women, over the centuries, may really not have minded wearing them. The positive aspects of the psychology of corsets does remain to be explored and an examination of these positive aspects would not necessarily discredit the work that has been done on the negative aspects. Suzanne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 13:55:16 -0600 (CST) From: "Donna Holsten" Subject: Re: The psychology of corsets In message Thu, 27 Apr 1995 15:21:49 -0400, Tiepolo2@aol.com writes: > If not outrageously tight, corsets do seem to provide many women with a > paradoxical sense of power, elegance, and grandeur, possibly a vestige of > the feeling of class superiority that they may have once provided. Most > women I know who have worn them have described them as surprisingly > comfortable and fun to wear, because of this sense of power and ladylike > elegance... > Suzanne This is exactly right on the nose! I'm in the SCA, and I tend to prefer upper class 16th cen garb. I have a couple of outfits that are Very Nice, and require corsets, and a couple that I use as grubby garb, which don't require corsets. I *feel* different when I wear the corsetted outfits. I feel proud, pretty, sophisticated, etc. And not just because the outfits are nice--I really do think that the corset has something to do with it. I'm forced to have nice posture, to move differently than usual, and, while not uncomfortable, I'm constantly reminded that I'm wearing a corset. In fact, *other* people notice the change in my attitude... (Which is a long story--shortened to the fact that I was described as "unapproachable" when in my nice outfits). Donna Holsten ------------------------------ End of Volume 291 -----------------------