From: Gretchen Miller Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 18:47:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 292, 5/3/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 292, May 3, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: Medieval Irish costume ISO: Address for J Peterman Psychology of corsetry Questions and answers: Pattern and boning for late 18th C corset Obis as corsets? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 13:52:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Tracy Miller Subject: Re: Re[2]: Medieval Irish costume? Thanks for responding to my question! On Thu, 27 Apr 1995, KATHLEEN NORVELL wrote: > As to what that "ruff" at the bottom of the jacket is, it's a bad > representation of pleats, and frequently makes the Irishman look like he's > wearing a tutu! It does indeed! What still baffles me, though, is that in the same drawing, I saw jackets that looked definately pleated and others with that sort of figure-8 ruffle on the bottom. Does anyone know if any of these jackets (pleated or otherwise) are still in existence? One thought that I had was that since the drawing was done by an Englishman, is it possible that he was making fun of the Irish mode in costume? Tracy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Apr 95 17:56:36 EST From: "KATHLEEN NORVELL" Subject: Re[4]: Medieval Irish costume? At least one of the jackets is extant, since that's the one Mairead Dunleavy examined to determine that the threads were at the top and bottom of the jacket skirt. Since the English liked to poke fun at the Irish, it could be that they drew the jacket with a ruff, or it could have been a copy of a copy etc. and somebody along the line got it wrong. It's hard to figure out the artist's intent some times. Contemporary drawings by German and Dutch artists seem to be more realistic. Derricks's "Image of Ireland", which is where we get most of the "Ruff-looking" pleats, was done by an Englishman. He also got the harp strung horizontally too. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 21:19:50 -0500 (CDT) From: Melanie Jo Schuessler Subject: re: J. Peterman Could someone please post the address and phone number of J. Peterman? If this has already been done, I unfortunately missed it. All of these descriptions are making me VERY curious!! Melanie ------------------------------ From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 28 Apr 95 09:15:00 BST Subject: Corsets Anne Hollander's comments ring true to me, as a long term 16th century gentry corset/lower order bodice wearer (I bone my 'lower order' bodices nearly as much as the corset, tho' not so tight-laced). Particularly the comments about power and posture. However, I am not so convinced about the erotic view of corsets. I suspect the late 20th century's view is very different from cultures where the wearing of corsets was normal. Wearing a corset/bodice properly (straight-laced) was the essence of respectability, which seems to get forgotten. Anne Holland says in these periods it is the naked (uncorseted) woman which is seems as erotic. For example, Andrew Marvell's 'a sweet disorder in the dress', 18th 'erotic' pictures tend to show a woman in the process of dressing or undressing. I am not denying that the individual, then or now, may feel sexual pleasure in wearing a corset, or looking at a woman wearing one, I am pointing out that the contemporary view of the item of dress was very different. I also suspect that the effect of a corset on the individual varied enormously, depending on the different types of corset used over time, and that our views tend to be determined by the victorian corset, with the dangerous obsession with getting the waist as small as possible, and the contemporary view of the ideal woman as being hopeless and helpless. This is only a small part of the history of the corset/boned bodice, and the association of the two ideas distorts the picture. The Tudor bodice, assuming you have any bust at all, puts very little pressure on the lower rib cage and the vulnerable floating ribs - I've danced (galliards) all day in a very tight corset, and shown no sign of the vapours! Caroline ------------------------------ From: LIVERMORE@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 09:43:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: psychology of corsets I'm hardly an expert on corsets, as the one occasion when I had to wear one it was taken from costume stock and didn't fit me quite right. I was rather uncomfortable -- it's amazing what a difference a half inch can make. Actually, as I read these posts about corset psychology, I keep wondering how much our perspective (that is, looking back into the past) affects how we understand this topic. All I can think of is how happy I am to get out of an underwire bra at the end of the day. Many of the arguments regarding the eroticism of corsets (to the wearer, that is) might be made about the bra -- tight contact with erotically sensitive areas, both the wearer's and the viewer's increased awareness of these areas and their greater visual prominence, etc. And yet most of my women friends, while recognizing the necessity of support to avoid that sort of discomfort, HATE their bras, and gladly remove them when at home. I kind of wonder what costume historians two hundred years from now will say about the bra, and whether we would agree (or perhaps enjoy a good belly laugh.) Just wondering. -- Anne ------------------------------ From: Ladyspnr@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 11:34:36 -0400 Subject: Corsets HELP! With all the conversation recently regarding corsets, hopefully someone can point me in the right direction. I am a living history re-enactor portraying a woman in the late 1700's (between wars - settler - not camp follower). I am trying to find an actual pattern for a corset correct for the late 1700's. Most patterns I find (ex. Past Patterns) are from a later period and are useless to me. They really don't work with the clothing. I have seen some corsets worn over the chemise without a bodice - is this correct for this period? It looks neat, but I want to be correct. Also I have made one corset (mid-1800's from Past Patterns) and have a great deal of trouble keeping the boning in. After I wear it once or twice, the boning starts coming out through the material. I used the material the pattern suggested. Would a light-weight canvas work? Also where can I get boning? I purchased metal boning from Amazon and plastic boning from Joann Fabrics. Both types seem to cut right through the material, (the plastic is terrible - small plastic fibers - really HURTS). HELP - Any suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated. I have several events coming up in the next several months and have to get cracking - I don't want to be "undressed". :D @->->- Karri Riedel -<-<-@ You'll find me living in the 1700's on weekends!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 95 12:06:40 EST From: "KATHLEEN NORVELL" Subject: Re[2]: The psychology of corsets I am tall, 5'9'', and statuesque (some one else's description, not mine). I have a Jacobean gown (c.1618) that requires a corset and a ruff. I call it my "evil dress" because it requires me to stand up *very* straight (and I have good posture to begin with) because of the corset and look down my nose at people because of the ruff. I wore it for a costume competiton at St. Mary's City a few years ago and the people bowed as I swept by and called me "Your Majesty" -- I have a high forehead and auburn hair and have been told I bear a resemblence to Queen Eliabeth I (I hope not!). Besides the corsetry, the class levelmof the gown has a lot to do with the psychology of it all. I have worn corsets as a middle class woman and have not felt majestic (only warm and usually comfortable). I was grateful for the back support. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 10:25:57 -0700 From: cjsmith@fantasy.Stanford.EDU (CJ Smith) Subject: Re: psychology of corsets Anne's post mentioned how she feels about bras, and notes our thoughts on corsets might be warped by our perspective of looking into the past. My feelings about bras differ so much that I thought I'd send in my point of view too. > Actually, as I read these posts about corset psychology, I keep > wondering how much our perspective (that is, looking back into the > past) affects how we understand this topic. All I can think of is > how happy I am to get out of an underwire bra at the end of the day. Really? I LOVE mine! > Many of the arguments regarding the eroticism of corsets (to the > wearer, that is) might be made about the bra -- tight contact with > erotically sensitive areas, both the wearer's and the viewer's > increased awareness of these areas and their greater visual > prominence, etc. I find corsets much more erotic than bras - in fact I don't find bras erotic at all, just very comfortable. Granted, my perspective on corsets might differ considerably if I "had to" wear one every day. The parallel is clear. (Some days I actually wish my bra didn't give quite so much "visual prominence". I wonder if anyone felt this way about corsets.) > And yet most of my women friends, while > recognizing the necessity of support to avoid that sort of > discomfort, HATE their bras, and gladly remove them when at home. I'd be surprised to find I was this far out of the norm, but I really feel the opposite way. I have a reasonable amount of discomfort when I don't have the support of a bra. If I'm going down a staircase and I don't have a bra on, I gotta hang on to myself. When I get up on a lazy Saturday, and I do laundry and bills and housecleaning and such in the (mostly) nude, I'll put on a bra. (I'm not large. Rather average - C cup. But they're kinda heavy, and y'know the feeling across your chest just under the collarbones that says "You're about to tear at the perforations here?" Ick.) --CJ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 12:39:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb Subject: RE: Corsets Oh, I forgot to address your second question: I make my corsets out of a heavy duck or the like weight fabric. I use the steel boning with rounded ends. I have cut some to my own length, in which case I carefully file the ends round, and coat them with nail polish (to avoid rusting and keep sharp edges away from the fabric). My stays poke through after 2 years or so, on a few particularly stressed stays. I'm working currently on darning those holes closed (this corset will become the less fancy, mended one) and making a new one withoout darned holes. I use 2 layers of the heavy duck cotton. I sew through both layers to make the stay channels. The steels slide between the two fabrics, and you have a basically reversible corset [ though after a few wearings it starts to shape to you, and I've never reversed it.] Before inserting the last few steels (or indeed, any) I hand sew the lacing holes. (Poke the hole with an awl, enlarge by snipping 1 thread on each of 2 or 3 sides.) Then I insert the steels in the stay channels and bind the edges with diagonal cut fabric strips (also known as "seam binding" when you buy it pre-packaged!) <===============================================================> < Deb Baddorf Fermilab, MS220 Arthurian,Inkling,&Regency buff Baddorf@fnal.gov PO Box 500 Costumer, RevWar re-enactor Baddorf@fnal.bitnet Batavia, IL 60510 MAC Q605 w/ IIe emulator & FPU ------------------------------ From: Elizabeth Lewandowski Subject: re:corset Date: Fri, 28 Apr 95 11:56:58 CDT When looking for corset patterns for most periods, try "corsets and Crinolines" (the author escapes me). If you can create from photos, try R.L. Shep's "A visual History of Corsets" for good pictures. "Have fun and go home when you're tired!" Elizabeth ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 12:27:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb Subject: RE: Corsets 1700's corsets: I make mine via the patterns in this book: The Evolution of Fashion Margaret Hamilton Hill & Peter A Bucknell Drama Book Publishers, New York 1987 0-8967-6099-5 They have a corset pattern for the early part of the century, and one in 1790. I made up the 1790 one (for 1779) and crossed it with a corset drawing from Diderot's Encyclopedia, for stay placement and further detailing. The fan arrangement of the stays, and the boning down into the waist tabs, as shown in the Diderot drawing make for a very good looking corset. Also, the pieces shown in Diderot's corset match those in the book above, so you have your documentation for the corset's authenticity. One place for this Diderot drawing: Waugh, Norah. Corsets and Crinolines. Theatre Arts Books, copyright 1970 (and 1954?). 176 pages, illustrated, bibliography. History of the corset, including the different shapes used in different periods (e.g. Tudor, Victorian, Edwardian). <============================================================> < Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov Costumer, RevWar re-enactor ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 15:14:22 -0400 From: wayne@wfu.edu (Mary R. Wayne) Several years ago in my costume construction class we made several corsets-one from "Corsets and Crinolines" and one from Jean Hunnisett's "Period Costume for Stage and Screen." We found that the Hunnisett pattern fit much better plus she gives good construction tips. Mary Wayne-Thomas, Costume and Scenic Designer Wake Forest University Theatre P.O. Box 7264 Winston-Salem, NC 27109 (910) 759-5086 ------------------------------ From: LIVERMORE@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 15:17:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: bras Thank you for the feedback. I am amazed and delighted to discover the range of experience with bras. (My women friends and I must be a highly unrepre- sentative example.) I certainly hope I didn't say anything offensive. Guess I know what those costume historians will say :) -- Anne ------------------------------ From: MarieD0108@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Apr 1995 22:17:49 -0400 Subject: Some more on corsets Geez, this seems to be such a touchy subject! I do an historical Renaissance Faire, and you can't be in the Court without a corset. Not only does it give the proper line and posture, it provides very necessary back support. Everyone seems to be focussing on the social and psychology of corsetry, without looking at the practical aspect. Real dresses of the time were made ov velvet, and if you've ever handled reproduction velvets from the time (very expensive, by the way) you will find them essentially to be a heavy canvas with the velvet nap on top. The stuff is about 5 times as heavy as modern clothing velvet, or about 3 times as heavy as upholstery velvet. Figure the amount of fabric in one of those things and you've got some weight. Without a corset to distribute the weight onto the hips, you can't do much. The hip bolster of the times also serves the same function, to distribute the weight of the skirts from one area to a wider area on the body. I make my corsets out of heavy cotton, but the boning I use is kind of different. I use 3/4" steel lumber strapping. It works great! I get mine free from the lumber yard, and you can cut it with tinsnips. Snip the corners to correspond with the bottom edge of the corset. You can finish the ends by wrapping them in duct tape, or by using that latex tool dip they sell. I tried both, and the tool dip lasts the longest. A couple of hints about the strapping: 1. it is heavy, watch out. 2. it rusts with heavy sweating. Rust-o-leum works well. 3. It will chew through the fabric in a couple of years, and it really hurts when it does. I don't think this would work for post 1800 corseatry very well, but for earlier ones it is great. Since you can't get large pieces of whalebone like they used, this is a nice alternative. Hope I didn't confuse too many of you. Marie Denikas ------------------------------ Date: 29 Apr 95 16:48:16 EDT From: Dee Wilson <100545.3105@compuserve.com> Subject: Japanese OBI/corsetry I am researching the history of health and domestic medicine 1750 - 1960. This mean I am looking at the history of what we have done to our bodies and why. Recently I posted here a question on the psychology of 18/19/20 corsetry. I had assumed that corsetry was a W Europe culture garment. Several people have suggested I look at the Japanese obi (sash). I have to say my research is limited to W Europe/US but sideways glances are useful to gain perspective. Some costume text books suggest the obi = corset and that it could be very tight and restrictive. Has anyone experience of Japanese costume and the obi ? It is completely outside my knowledge. What does it do for the Japanese figure ? Can the western woman wear it ? Does it help to achieve the stance/posture/attitude that Japanese women are (were) supposed to have ? How tight is it worn ? If it was tight at what age did girls start with it ? Dee ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 15:10:23 -0700 From: Alison Kondo Subject: Corsets For a late 1700's corset, I've had good luck with the "large ladies' (it's not that large) 1785 corset from "Period Costume for Stage & Screen, vol 1, 1500-1800 by Jean Hunnisett. I guess the pattern was taken from an original in her collection & is quite comfortable to wear, even for long periods of time. I got my local photocopy shop to enlarge the pattern to size (the gridded original fits the book size) & it fit well on the first muslin. Its constructed of two heavy canvas layers with steel bonig between. There is space between the sones, since the corset is like the "half-boned" type shown in "Corsets & Crinolines". Several other women made up the same type of corset & they've all reported good results. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 15:14:20 -0700 From: Alison Kondo Subject: Obi's A good book for commentary on the social distinctions of obi-wearing is "Kimono: Fashioning Culture" by Lisa Dalby, 1992 Her earlier book "Geisha" describes the specific culture & clothing of the geisha's, including special obi's. Alison ------------------------------ End of Volume 292 -----------------------