From: Gretchen Miller Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 18:53:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 293, 5/4/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 293, May 4, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: Renaissance quilts, and winding thread Fans, and a good fan source Psychology of bras Construction of corsets Question and answers: Amish clothing Question about cotehardie pattern Wanted: J Peterman and Co address Question:Red dress in "Age of Innocence" CAD for costumers Obi as corset Various museum exhibits (USA) List of textile related lists ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 11:20:27 -0700 From: Chris Laning Subject: Renaissance Quilt (was: Fugitive Dye) To-hist@ Sunday, April 30, 1995 You may remember that I asked a question a while back ("Wanted: Fugitive Dye") about how to mark a quilting design on a project that would demonstrate quilting at the N.Calif. Renaissance Faire. (It's the post that started all the discussion about whether cotton fabric would have been available, what's meant by the word "cotton," etc., and no, I don't want to get into *that* again, thanks! ) I appreciate all the advice and thought I'd let you know what I've come up with. After pondering all the discussion, I'm currently thinking I will stick to my choice of a polished cotton fabric for the face, since (according to the story I've invented) it's a piece of fabric given to the Guild by a wealthy merchant guild member. Since I became "Linen Mistress" I have (according to the story) made it known that gifts of fine fabrics to the guild are just as welcome as gifts of silver "plate." A fine glazed cotton would certainly be expensive, and not common, in the 1580s or 90s, especially since it was almost certainly imported, but that would explain why we are making something quite splendid from it. (This is a plausible origin because the "character" I play has several friends among the Merchant Adventurers, i.e. importers.) I had originally thought of using polyester batting (and concealing it well), but I've decided this was pure laziness and I have to find something better. Those of you who are not quilters may not know that polyester batting produces quite a different appearance when quilted than traditional natural- fiber batting, which is more flexible and has considerably less "loft." In Elizabethan England, it seems that the most likely material for batting at that period would be wool. Rumor among quiltmakers has it that wool is wonderful to work with ("like quilting through butter") so I'm going to get myself a new set of wool cards (which I need anyway) and make a wool batting. Besides, that gives us one more good craft to demonstrate. A friend in St. George's guild who is also on this mailing list reminded me that quilting was regarded as a type of embroidery, and thus would likely have been done on a rectangular "roller" frame rather than in a large hoop, as I had been thinking of (that's the common method now). Fortunately, I have a roller frame, and I even *think* it's the right size. I didn't say anything about the quilting design, but I'm also re-thinking *that*: natural fiber batting means the background has to be quilted rather closely, every inch or so, and that is also the style of the period. So I'm spacing the motifs and lines closer together. The finished product is going to become the top of a long rectangular cushion, for some of the higher-status guild members to sit on at dinner; if it takes less than forever to finish, we could even make a couple more matching cushions and extend comfort a little further down the benches! As for my original question about marking the design, I got a number of interesting answers; the consensus seems to be that such a pattern would not have been inked, but would have been marked by "pouncing" with a pattern of dots. I'm also reminded that, even today, quilt kits are sold that are marked with ink that does *not* wash out - - it's supposed to be covered by the stitching. Anyway, eventually I realized that for *this* project, since the fabric is a medium shade, I can legitimately mark the pattern with a white pencil and pretend I used a sliver of dry (white) soap, which I am fairly sure *is* a period technique. My original question had assumed I needed to use something dark. I'm currently pondering what people used to wind thread on, since we need to have a supply handy. Apparently spools, as we now know them, are an 18th-century innovation (wooden ones, I mean - - in the 20th century they are mostly plastic, which is referred to at the RenFaire as "a strange material, like unto ivory, which I have ne'er seen afore"!).I had thought of winding the thread (it's natural-colored cotton quilting thread) into a ball, but apparently thread could also be wound on a bobbin of some sort. Anybody know what they looked like? I'll keep looking; I guess "needlework tools" is another topic to hit in the library (along with "memorial brasses," "Greek myths in the Renaissance" and several others...). Happily researching, ____________________________________________________________ O Chris Laning | + Davis, California ____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 95 20:55:42 PDT From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Period quilt About the wool batting--one type of filling used by quilters of my grandmother's and great-gramdmother's generations was a well-worn wool blanket. I haven't researched whether this was done in the Renaissance, but it makes sense--it's economical and easier to manage than a fluffier filler. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Apr 95 21:25:52 PDT From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Fans I spent this afternoon at the home of Sandra Lawrence, a fan collector, dealer, and restorer. She sells the collections of fan collectors who have died or want to sell their fans. She had over 400 fans for sale--I bought 12. Sandra is a very educational person to talk to. I bought three Victorian men's fans from her--I didn't even know Victorian men used fans. She had a bunch more men's fans at very reasonable prices--apparently they are not popular with collectors. I found out a lot about different types and dates of fans. She taught me how to reribbon a brise fan (the kind composed entirely of wide sticks held together with a ribbon), how to insert new metal wires through the bottoms of the fans and make washers for the ends out of tiny vintage mother-of-pearl buttons, and how to wrap carpet thread around the fan sticks to help keep the fan from stress during opening and closing. She does a lot of restoration for museums and wants to pass her knowledge along, but she says most people don't have the patience to do restoration. Sandra had a lot of what were once very beautiful fans that are in unrestorable condition, but she sells the mother-of-pearl, bone, and tortoiseshell sticks to lace makers to make their own lace fans. She also had some ostrich feather fans whose feathers were shot, but apparently it is fairly easy to attach new feathers. She had some Victorian fans in somewhat damaged but usable condition at quite good prices--they would be good for dances. I bought an 1830s fan that is in good shape except I have to put a new wire and washers at the bottom. I bought it partly because it has a picture of a group of people doing a longways set dance with early 19th-century steps and I want to study what they are doing. Anyway, I thought Sandra's services or information might somehow be useful to people on this list. (She didn't ask me to post her address, though she did give me permission; and I'm certainly not making any money from it!) Her address is: Sandra Lawrence PO Box 1054 El Cerrito, CA 94530 Fran Grimble ------------------------------ From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 01 May 95 11:39:00 BST Subject: Re: corsets Chantal asked me about sources, and since I wanted to reply to a posting about bras, I thought I would kill two birds with one mailing. Bras: I'm definately one of the women who take their bras off with a sigh of relief. I'm quite large (42-44 D cup) and get tired of the red lines/strain across the top of my shoulders. One advantage of bodices is that the strain is more evenly spread, and wish I could wear them all the time. I don't wear underwired bras - one of the more fiendish inventions - and you want me to make more of what I've got? I must confess that I find men's reactions to women in bodices, and the cleavages created, very funny - but that probably says more about me than about men. Bodices/Corsets Sources/patterns: Arnold, Hunnisett and costume notes from Kentwell's costume adviser, Rosemary Muntus, who is very good, but not published (at the moment). Boning: Sprung steel bones (I would forget about rigeline (plastic boning) unless you are dealing with a child). The ends I cover with plasters - the fabric kind. They work quite well, but will work through in the end. It seems to depend on how often I wash something! However, the channel construction means it is quite easy to replace bones or the plaster as necessary. Material: - remember the vocabulary difference! But I use a heavy weight, densely woven drill (or mattress cover when I can get it, which is a sort of very heavy weight, dense canvas - quite thick too), layered with calico and channels. Where do I put the boning - it's probably easier to look at Arnold/Hunnisett's drawings. However, talking about a front lacing bodice, the front four are straight, with the lacing holes between the pairs on each side, and then they fan out from the waist to the neckline in front of the armholes. I don't bother to bone under the armholes or at the back (unless talking about a back-lacing corset, which I hate wearing - always having to ask for help ------------------------------ From: jennyb@pdd.3com.com Date: Mon, 1 May 95 12:09:56 BST Subject: Re: Renaissance Quilt (was: Fugitive Dye) >I'm currently pondering what people used to wind thread on, since we need >to have a supply handy. Apparently spools, as we now know them, are an >18th-century innovation (wooden ones, I mean - - in the 20th century they >are mostly plastic, which is referred to at the RenFaire as "a strange >material, like unto ivory, which I have ne'er seen afore"!).I had thought of >winding the thread (it's natural-colored cotton quilting thread) into a ball, >but apparently thread could also be wound on a bobbin of some sort. Anybody >know what they looked like? I'll keep looking; I guess "needlework tools" is >another topic to hit in the library (along with "memorial brasses," "Greek >myths in the Renaissance" and several others...). I would assume that the most common method of storing thread would be as skeins, when I spin thread for sewing I often need to dye it, to be dyed it must be wound into a skein, so at some point before it is used most embroidery thread would have been in a skein. A skein is also a useful way of measuring thread length (so many times around a standard winder). If the thread has to be in a skein at some point why incur extra labour by winding it into some other form? Embroidery thread is still purchased in skeins, so I would say that it was the most common method of purchasing it in the past too. Friends who use frames for needlepoint just cut a complete skein into lengths suitable for sewing with & tie them around the edge of the frame with half hitches. I find even the best made skeins tend to tangle if I use them a little at a time, and I don't like to cut up a whole skein at once as I use leftovers for weaving & want long lengths for that. If I have a small skein that I don't want to tangle I wind it off into a butterfly skein (a figure of eight wound around the finger & thumb that doesn't tangle so much as a plain skein) When using small quantities of thread in a living history setting I once lost track of the skein I was working on so many times I ended up winding the whole thing around the needle case on my chatelaine. It worked a treat but I have no idea if similar frustration would have led one of my predecessors to do the same. Chatelaines often included devices related to sewing, so they might be a good place to look for some equivalent of spools? I've seen line winders from archaeological excavations dated to a thousand years ago, but they are thought to have been for frequently re-used thread such as fishing lines. Not all thread that was re-used was stored like this as the weavers of Mandaalen valley (who preserved an ancient tradition of weaving on the warp weighted loom) wound the linen threads used to set up the loom into balls. They used yet another type of skein for weaving which had a tight packed end made by winding the thread around one end of the skein after each loop, I've not heard of this skein in use in any other context, though it is a marvellous way of keeping large amounts of thread free of tangles. In Northern Europe ball winders have been in use for at least a couple of hundred years. They are turned pieces of wood with a slightly rounded conical top with a groove an inch or two down. I believe some of the "phallic objects" recovered from Viking & Saxon excavations are actually ball winders as they look just like the modern version to me, and yes they are very phallic! the thread is wound up and down around the top & produces a hollow cylinder of thread like the ones crochet cotton is sold in. I'm told Norsk Fjord Fiber sells them in the US as "Nostepinners". These balls have a looser start than a normal hand wound ball & do not cause the centre threads to get hopelessly kinked. I would guess that before spools came into common usage any gadget for winding threads onto would probably be a rich lady's toy rather than a common workers tool, (I would guess that in the past as today there were plenty of people ready to sell unnecessary gadgets to anyone who would buy them!) Such a toy might be an interesting addition to your theatrical props, but I would not have thought suvh things would be absolutely necessary to depict someone sewing in a period fashion (though as always I'm quite ready to be corrected on that opinion.) Jennifer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 1995 10:01:22 -0400 From: Beth Stegenga Subject: Amish Plain Clothes I am looking for any costume books relating to plain clothes of the Amish, circa 1880's. I have found references to what they wear today, but nothing to tell me what are the differences in the last 100 years. And if anyone can explain the button dilemna, I would greatly appreciate it. ;) The women can't use buttons, but the man have them on their shirts and sometimes on their pants. What's the difference? The way I first understood it all buttons were "proud". Beth nobam@huber.com ------------------------------ From: Colette Goodyear Subject: Cotehardie Pattern Question To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 12:27:17 -0230 (NDT) A quick question concerning Medieval Miscellanea's Cotehardies and Sideless Surcoats Pattern (Number 21): I have the pattern but the sewing instructions are missing. I can easily sew the cotehardie without instructions but I'm wondering about the gores that are let into the skirt. You can cut either 2 or 4 of them. Since I like full skirts, I plan on cutting 4. Two go into the side seams. Do the other two also go into the side seams or do they go into the center front and center back seams? Could someone please look at his or her copy of the sewing instructions and help me out? Thanks! Colette Goodyear colette@plato.ucs.mun.ca ------------------------------ From: "Petersen, Judy Admissns" Subject: re: J. Peterman Date: Mon, 24 Apr 95 14:18:00 cdt So everyone talkes about the company, but can anyone give an address so I can order a catalogue? Thanks. ---------- >From: grm+ >To: cpecourt; h-costume >Subject: re: J. Peterman >Date: Monday, April 24, 1995 0:00 Our family has ordered quite a bit from J. Peterman. Everything is illustrated............, ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Danine Cozzens Internet: dgc3@pge.com Pacific Gas and Electric Company San Francisco, CA ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 95 12:32:21 EST From: "KATHLEEN NORVELL" Subject: Re: Amish Plain Clothes In response to Beth's queries on Amish clothing, some orders (sects?) of Amish use buttons and some don't, so it depends on which order or how conservatiove they are. I suspect the clothing has not changed much in the past 100 years. If you live in an area of the US where the Amish have their enclaves, try to find out what order they are. If they are OLD ORDER, the most conservative, they are probably wearing the type of clothing they wore a century ago. There are, of course, very few, if any, photos of these people, since that is against their religion. Maybe some one in this group who lives in PA or OH can help you. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 09:45:42 -0700 From: Alexandra.Ohlson@Eng.Sun.COM (Alexandra Rankin Ohlson) Subject: Dress information I'm harboring a fantasy of making a dress simliar to that worn by Michelle Pfeiffer (sp?) in "The Age of Innocence". The specific dress is the red one that she wears to the dinner party that is supposed to "reestablish" her in society. (She shows up late.) I'll probably rent the movie again so I can scrutinize it more closely, but I was wondering if anyone had any more detailed information on that particular garment. alexandra ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 14:10:30 -0400 From: wayne@wfu.edu (Mary R. Wayne) Subject: CAD for costumers A friend of mine, Darwin Payne, author of "Computer Scenograhics" has just sent me information on a new product that ya'll might be interested in. Fractal Design Corp. has announced a new product called Poser. It claims to draw the human form in correct size and proportion as skeltons, wireframes or silhouettes. Neither Darwin nor I have tried it. Has anyone else heard of it or tried it? Until the end of August it is $99. The phone number is (408) 688-5300. By the way, this is a Macintosh application. Mary Wayne-Thomas, Costume and Scenic Designer Wake Forest University Theatre P.O. Box 7264 Winston-Salem, NC 27109 (910) 759-5086 ------------------------------ From: Connie_Frick@Douglas.BC.CA Subject: Re: Japanese OBI/corsetry Date: Mon, 1 May 95 12:38:00 PDT Dee Wilson was overheard to say.... > Has anyone experience of Japanese costume and the obi ? It is completely > outside my knowledge. > > What does it do for the Japanese figure ? Can the western woman wear it ? > Does it help to achieve the stance/posture/attitude that Japanese women are > (were) supposed to have ? How tight is it worn ? If it was tight at what age > did girls start with it ? When I was about 13, my best friend let me dress up in her mother's kimono, complete with obi, split socks and the works. The outfit was a tad small for me but I do remember the obi was quite snug. I remember making the comment that I could understand why they take such tiny steps! Unfortunately, 13 was a long time ago so I don't remember much more. Connie -- Connie Frick Connie_Frick@douglas.bc.ca Buyer, Douglas College ------------------------------ From: Edward Wright Date: Mon, 1 May 95 11:30:23 TZ Subject: RE: Amish Plain Clothes | And if anyone can explain the button dilemna, I would greatly appreciate | it. ;) The women can't use buttons, but the man have them on their shirts | and sometimes on their pants. What's the difference? The way I first | understood it all buttons were "proud". Not all Amish groups are equally strict. Some allow buttons and some don't. I haven't heard of a distinction based on sex. Perhaps the men and women you've seen were from different groups? ------------------------------ From: VICKI@lib.uttyl.edu Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 15:15:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: museum exhibits My most recent issue of _Lady's Gallery_ came in on Friday, and there are several interesting museum exhibits discussed. I would like to hear from anyone who has seen any of these, or the exhibit catalogs for any of them: Bloom: Fashion's Spring Gardens, The Costume Institute, The Metropolitan Museum of Art, seen through Aug. 20, 1995. "a celebration of the flower as a symbol of beauty in fashion's huge bouquet of floral themes... more than 80 mannequins will feature garments from the 17th century to the present" There is supposed to be an illustrated catalog written by Richard Martin and Harold Koda. The Look of the Ladies, at the Civil War Library and Museum, Philadelphia, through June 30. Guest curators Juanita Leisch and Linda Duffy. "displays of period clothing, accessories, photographs, books and related artifacts" There is supposed to be a catalog for sale. Head to Toe: Two Centuries of hats and Shoes, 1770-1970, at Lorenzo State Hstoric Site, Cazenovia, NY, June 15-July 4, 1995, curated by Sue Schuler-Langley. More than 50 hats and bonnets as well as over forty pairs of shoes. No mention of a catalog. Fashion to Fantasy: Dressing the American Bride, 1830-1990, at the Lost (Los--sorry, a typo) Angeles County Museum of Art, April 6-July 16. 21 gowns, fashion plates, dress accessories, and commentary. Curated by Dale Carolyn Gluckman. No mention of a catalog. Has anyone seen any of these? I am particularly interested in catalogs that I can order with good photographs, since it is very unlikely that I will be able to see any of them. Vicki Betts vicki@lib.uttyl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 95 14:40:33 PDT From: susanf@EERC.Berkeley.Edu (Susan Fatemi) 1 May 1995 The following is a list of addresses for textile / costume/ sewing listservs It is being cross-posted to absolutely everyone as my wrists are wearing out sending them individually. ========================= The Historic Costume List Send items for the list to: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to: h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu ------------------------- Wearable Art List Submissions to the list: wearable@lunch.engr.sgi.com Adds/removes/archives: wearable-digest-request@lunch.engr.sgi.com Real, live person: owner-wearable@lunch.engr.sgi.com ----------------------- fantasy costume list: f-costume-request@lunch.engr.sgi.com vintage costume list: vintage-request@lunch.engr.sgi.com (this one may have changed addresses recently) --------------------- Textiles list subscribe to: listserv@vm3090.ege.edu.tr send mail to: textiles@vm3090.ege.edu.tr ------------------------- Sewing list: subscription to: listserv@netcom.com mail to sew-l@netcom.com note: it is the letter "L" not number 1 ----------------------- I think for all of them, you just type subscribe in the body of the message. I really apologize if I give anyone the wrong instructions or address, but I've had so many individual requests, I thought this would be the best way. These are all great lists with wonderful, creative, generous people on them. Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ From: Gregory Stapleton Date: Mon, 1 May 95 16:32:26 PDT Subject: RE: CAD for costumers Saw it last week at Windows World. Very nice application. Should be out in Microsoft Windows format about 3 months after the release of the Macintosh Version. Gregory ---------- >From: Mary R. Wayne >To: >Subject: CAD for costumers >Date: Monday, May 01, 1995 2:10PM A friend of mine, Darwin Payne, author of "Computer Scenograhics" has just sent me information on a new product that ya'll might be interested in. Fractal Design Corp. has announced a new product called Poser. It claims to draw the human form in correct size and proportion as skeltons, wireframes or silhouettes. Neither Darwin nor I have tried it. Has anyone else heard of it or tried it? Until the end of August it is $99. The phone number is (408) 688-5300. By the way, this is a Macintosh application. Mary Wayne-Thomas, Costume and Scenic Designer Wake Forest University Theatre P.O. Box 7264 Winston-Salem, NC 27109 (910) 759-5086 ------------------------------ End of Volume 293 -----------------------