From: "Philip Edward Cutone, III" Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 12:43:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 296, 5/8/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 296, May 9, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Please note that I am not the usual maintainer. If there is a problem with the digest please let me know (and forgive a few blunders.... :) this digest covers all undigestified messages through May 4. Enjoy! Filip ------------------------------ Topics: 18th c. everyday gown Belated Intro Chatelaine Cosman and cookery - a long delayed reply Early 18th C Costuming Hair dye Help with documentation Japanese OBI LA exhibit Naturally Colored Cotton (was mutant cotton) Cordroy Undying Thanks medieval wear Naturally Colored cotton ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 10:13:33 +1000 From: S.Randles@UTS.Edu.Au (Sarah Randles) Subject: Undying Thanks Thanks to all the people who offered me advice on how to get rid of a colour run on a cream silk blouse. I was very glad that people were very adamant on not to use bleach. Many of the products which people recommended were not ones which were available to me, or which were probably marketed under another name in Australia. I did find a match, however for one chemical, sodium hydrosulphide, sold here as Run-Away, and tried it in barely lukewarm water for about an hour. It worked very well at disolving the colour run, but has left some slight discolouration of the silk, but on the whole the garment is suitably undyed (or undead?!) Sarah ************************************************************************** Sarah Randles S.Randles@uts.edu.au Research Office Telephone: (02)330 1252 University of Technology, Sydney Fax: (02)330 1252 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 04:05:49 -0400 From: Neysa@aol.com Subject: Early 18th C Costuming I want to make an early 18th century gown for everyday wear. I think a tradesman's wife is as fancy as I want to get. I have several yards of a checked woven linen that is best described as olive green and off white. I think I have enough to make a short gown. I already have a green peticoat cut out and ready to quilt. I really do not like the sack (msp) type of gowns, would it be incorrect for me to fit the back of my gown? I currently plan on making a stomacher but might want to wear it before that is finished, is it okay to use a kercheif in its place?? I have Nora Waugh's book "The Cut of Women's Clothes" but it is really about fancy court clothes and I don't plan on making those. What is a good source of info about everyday dress? Thanks so much Rici Tegarden in WV ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 May 1995 05:45:55 -0400 From: Beverly Roden Subject: Naturally Colored Cotton (was mutant cotton) Colored cotton is found in South America - some of the ancient Peruvian textiles, when analyzed to determine what were the coloring agents, were found to have NO coloring agents. Sally Fox (of Foxfire cottons) breeds back to those colored cottons by crossing the colored cottons (which have VERY short stapled fibers) with modern longer stapled fiber cottons. She has developed stable strains in 2 shades of brown and a shade of green that is photo-sensitive until boiled (which is what you do to cotton after spinning to set the twist). When the green is boiled with ammonia, a lovely blue-green results. These colors, rather than fading with age, become richer and deeper in color. This is due to the fact that the color is INSIDE the fiber - ie: naturally occuring. She has farmers growing the colored cotton under contract and selling it to the Levi Jeans company. The farmers have discovered they have better yields per acre. They have also found the colored cottons to be more insect resistant than the commercially developed white cotton - ie: it is a hardier strain. It has been theorized that the colored cottons were actively destroyed, as they cross-pollinate very nicely with white cotton, and white cottons were commercially desired by industry. Sally is working on stable strains of other colors such as red, purple, and blue. I understand you can purchase Levi products in the colored cottons, as well as being able to find Foxfiber cotton products in such catalogs as Seventh Generation (800-456-1177) - which sells plush towels striped in naturally colored cottons, amoungst other things. Sally Fox also sells Foxfiber colored cotton for the handspinner. SO - these are NOT mutant strains, but very ancient naturally occuring strains of cotton, cultivated centuries before Europeans came to South America. Beverly Roden ac508@dayton.wright.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 08:31:48 -0400 From: Ladyspnr@aol.com Subject: Belated Intro Hi folks! I have been brousing through several other mailing lists and I have found that it seems to be customary to give a brief introduction of yourself when you join a list. I'm not sure it this is the case for this list, but I will send one just in case. I became interested in historical clothing seven years ago when I became a living history re-enactor. At that time my daughter (3) and I were loosely affiliated with a Rev War group out of Monroe, MI. Since then we have gone into the War of 1812 (with Fort Meigs, Perrysburg, OH) and the period between with Seven Eagles Education Center in Grand Rapids, OH. Now, my two children (boy -4, girl -10) and I aren't really affiliated with any one group. We basically show up at events we are interested in and camp with people we know. My kids absolutely love our weekends together. The only unfortunate part of this is that my husband works every weekend at a grocery store. So I always say he's "foraging or hunting" if anyone asks. I spin wool and am attempting to learn to weave (currently using a frame loom). I own a mountain dulcimer (three years) and a bodhran (won last year in a raffle). Thanks to everyone who sent information regarding my midwife inquiry. I have already ordered one book and will attempt an interlibrary loan on several others. Yours in friendship @->->- Karri -<-<-@ Ladyspnr@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 08:31:48 -0400 From: Ladyspnr@aol.com Subject: Chatelaine I have seen several chatelaine's in Jas. Townsend's catalog, but have found them to be cost prohibitive for my budget ($35.00 either brass or G.silver). Does anyone have any suggestions on an inexpensive alternative? Currently I use a leather thong and tie my scissors to one end and my spinning hook to the other then loop it around the tie on my apron. Would this be an alternative? What about several thongs tied the apron? I'm runnin g out of pocket space and the scissors keep poking me in the leg. OUCH! ...working on being authentic... ;-) Karri Ladyspnr@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 09:01:36 -0400 From: Ann.J.Welborne.2@nd.edu (Anna Welborne) Subject: Help with documentation In a discussion on foot binding in China with my Asian philosophy professor, I mentioned reading about how in Europe they would sometimes clip a young girl's floating ribs in order to cinch her waist in tightly, and how they would also sometimes line a girl's bodice with lead to prevent breasts from forming. He asked for the documentation, and now I'm stuck. I *KNOW* I read it in a book in a library - and I can even tell you about where it was on the shelf, but I no longer live in that town. Could you all help me? The goal of the project is to find examples world wide of maiming females for "beauty". Primary examples are foot binding and suttee. But he pointed out that his undergrads (I'm his only grad in this class) are so quick to condemn the Asians, but have no idea of the atrocities inflicted upon girls and women in Europe or America. If you know of these references, or can think of any more examples, I'd be most appreciative. Thank you so much, Anna Welborne (a digest lurker) ******************************************************************** ***** Anna Welborne Press on, mi amigo! Press on, mon amie! welborne.2@nd.edu Walk on in the face of the mystery. Notre Dame University When the night hides the light, Philosophy Department And the journey is long, Notre Dame, IN 46556 Tie your shoes, my dear friend. Walk on. **************** Sighthounds ---- Addicted to Speed! ********************* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 09:26:31 -0400 From: Title-L@smtpgw.nctsw.navy.mil Subject: Cosman and cookery - a long delayed reply I know this is off the topic, but a while ago, Mrs. Yeldman asked what anyone else thought of Madeleine Pelner Cosman's _Fabulous Feasts_ as a resource on medieval cookery. I agree with her estimation that the text and background are strong, but the recipes dicey, and I would not recommend it for a beginner, despite the recipes' modern format. I use Fabulous Feasts as a strong general reference for table settings, hall layout and costumery, especially for contrast between working folk and nobility (lots of great period illos, especially for gothic and Elizabethan, but watch out - several are labeled in their blurbs as later forgeries!), but not for the recipes. I remember _Fabulous Feasts_ as one of the first widely-available modern medieval-cookery books, and I give Ms. Cosman full credit as a pioneer. But nowadays there are better places to learn the technique of translating medieval recipes, as well as tastier/more accurate recipe redactions. There are so many good early-period cookbooks available now that provide one or several original recipes of a type, then a usable modern redaction that's actually close to the original- Maggie Black's _A Medieval Cookbook_, David Friedman's _Cariadoc's Miscellany_ (talk about a pioneer!), translations of _Le Menagier de Paris_, a recent translation/reprint of Taillevant, the SCA's recent _Take a Thousand Eggs or More_, at least one repro of Apicius, _Sallets, Humbles and Shrewsbury Cakes_, just to name a few. Two specific issues: 1) FF doesn't name its sources. I'd rather see one or several versions of the original recipe taken directly from original sources, then the author's interpretation, including explanations why any non-period materials were used/substituted. Many medieval cookbooks lifted recipes directly from other period cookbooks, and seeing the variations can help determine the range of styles for a given dish. 2) She isn't always careful to match the redaction well to the original recipe. - Her tansy cakes, for one example, contain neither tansy or anything similar (they're basically a spinach frittata, with many ingredients, such as baking powder, not found in the original) - Her recipe for beets, "Joists" if I recall the name correctly, is a sort of borscht, where I remember reading that up to the 18th centy beets were grown for their leafy tops, not their then-scrawny roots. I understand that the actual dish would have been more like spiced greens than her thin beet soup. - Several dishes made by her recipes, "Trois-creme" for example, are inedible, yet I've had excellent trois-creme made from the Menagier de Paris recipe. Her spice-to-base proportions for this recipe are way off. This book has a valued place on my shelf; I've just finished a 6' x 5' painted hall banner of the feast from the Green Knight story, for which both the idea and basic composition were drawn from FF. Just be careful to get a second source, or do a trial run, for any FF recipes you try. Lynn fancy mice, homemade beef jerky, and fabric _do_ mix, just not in the same drawer... ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ >Subject: Shoes etc >Author: Mrs C S Yeldham at Internet >Date: 3/22/95 3:43 PM >BTW It was odd to see Madelien Pelner Cosman's name crop up. I have used >her cookery book 'Fabulous Feasts' on medieval cookery. The text section >is very good - full of useful sourced information. The recipes are >odder, I suspect useful if you know what you are doing, but I would >hesistate to give it to a beginner - which it would apparently be useful >for since the recipes are laid out in modern fashion. Has anyone else >any views? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 May 1995 08:40:51 -0600 (CST) From: BJHILL@STTHOMAS.EDU Subject: Re: Early 18th C Costuming Hello, I am new subscriber to this list. My own area of research is the fur trade from 1780-1820. My wife and I attend re-enactments and have found this list to be very interesting in our research of putting on a better show of ourselves to the public. In answer to the query on early 18th C costuming for everyday wear, might I suggest the following books, I cannot swear on the authenticity of these, but I trust our fellow listmembers will forgive me for any errors. 18th C. Clothing at Williamsburg by Linda Baumgartner Colonial Williamsburg Foundation, 1986 Common Threads - A parade of American Clothing by Lee Hall Little Brown & Co. Boston 1992 ISBN 0-8212-1900-6 I am also aware of a number of peroidicals dealing with this period that may be of some assistance, but alas, I do not have in my possession an index for these. I can however forward you a list of these, complete with addresses. Your most humble servant, brian hill bjhill@stthomas.edu the imbicilent clark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 May 1995 14:27:23 GMT From: paul@bozzie.demon.co.uk (Paul C. Dickie) Subject: Re: Cordroy In message "Joy K. Pye MacSwain" writes: > > Greetings: > > Could anyone tell me the orgin of `cordroy'? I am planning on > constructing a costume using a cordroy but was uncertain if it was truely > a `mediveal' fabric or not. Thanks for your help. I rather doubt that it's as old as that. As for the derivation of the word, opinions differ; however, it seems unlikely that it would, as has been suggested, have come from "cul du Roi"... "Cul du Roi" means "The King's backside"! Paul C. Dickie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 May 95 10:48:53 EST From: "KATHLEEN NORVELL" Subject: Re: Chatelaine If you can't afford a chatelaine or don't want one, here's what I do to keep my sewing stuff available. I bought a small, sturdy, rectangular basket for my 17th/18th century sewing implements. Then I bought a bunch of those small oriental straw bowes for my scissors, thread,buttons, etc. I use a wooden needle case for my needles, and other small wooden containers (available from Townsend, Smoke & Fire and a variety of other sources) for other notions. That way, I don't have everything hanging off my belt. The other alternative, if you want a chatelaine, is to find an appropriate "silver" brooch and buy some cheap "silver" chains and make one yourself. I did this and it worked just fine. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 May 95 09:10:00 PDT From: "Lassman, Linda" Subject: Chatelaine A friend of mine who makes Dark Ages sewing kits uses medium weight chain (you can get necklaces from Goodwill, etc. very cheaply) and attaches them to the shears and needle cases either using a jump ring or the last ring of the chain itself. If you have a long enough necklace, you can attach a different item to each end of the chain and then loop it through your belt. The sewing kits he makes are pinned to the garment at about mid-chest level and hang down just below the waist, so the tools can be used without being in the way. - Linda Lassman Winnipeg, Manitoba ------------------------------ Date: 04 May 95 12:15:53 EDT From: Eddie Broneske <100527.1074@compuserve.com> Subject: Early 18th C Costuming This is in reply to Rici Tegarden's post on an 18th century gown for everyday wear. You said "Early" 18th C, how early do you mean? I have a pattern that you can get from Raiments or Amazon Drygoods -- Mill Farm Pattern -- for a woman's gown which can be made simple for daytime wear or more dressy. I would estimate that it is more mid to late 18th century. I will give you the addresses for these two catalogs, and you may find what you are looking for in them. Amazon Drygoods 2218 East 11th Street Davenport, IA 52803-3760 Raiments P.O. Box 6176 Fullerton, CA 92634-6176 I also have a Shift, Petticoat and Stays from the same pattern company that go with that time period. I haven't made the dress yet, but I have made the stays out of leather and it came out great. Joan Broneske ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 May 95 10:26:32 PDT From: "SNORTON.US.ORACLE.COM" Subject: 18th c. everyday gown The book 18th Century Clothing at Colonial Williamsburg by Linda Baumgarten has a wide variety of women's garments shown in excellent colour photographs. You could certainly do a dress with a fitted back. There are several examples in this book. You might also consider a short jacket or a caraco. Are you familiar with the patterns from Rocking Horse Farm and Mill Farm? Both of these companies have a good selection of 18th c. garments. They are available from Amazon and Raiments. Sally Norton snorton@US.oracle.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 May 95 10:32:29 PDT From: "SNORTON.US.ORACLE.COM" Subject: LA exhibit Just called LACMOA re: catalogue for the Fashion to Fantasy exhibit. No catalogue. No plans to produce one. Drat. Sally ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 12:15:36 -0700 From: Alison Kondo Subject: Hair dye I seem to remember reading an article in the early 80's, height of the punk phase, in which one of the interviewee's said she stiffened & coloured her hair with Kool-Aid. She claimed the sugar stiffened the hair while the food colouring tinted it. I haven't tried this myself, I don't think waist-length hair could get dtiff enough to stand up without major damage. Another suggestion might be to get cheap thrift-store wigs & hit them with spray paint. I've seen a couple people do that. Also, Lacey Wigs (some one gave the address recently) does carry cheap-ish "halloween" wigs in pink, orange, green, etc. Hope this helps... Alison ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 May 1995 16:02:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Neil Tejano Subject: medieval wear Can anybody give help regarding medieval wear, i.e. what kinds of garments were worn and what kinds of material to use? Thanks! Neil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 14:10:33 -0700 From: cjsmith@fantasy.Stanford.EDU (CJ Smith) Subject: Re: Cordroy > As for the derivation of the word, opinions differ; however, it > seems unlikely that it would, as has been suggested, have come from > "cul du Roi"... > > "Cul du Roi" means "The King's backside"! How about "corps du roi" (the "ps" in "corps" is silent), meaning the body of the King? Closer in sound and possibly closer in meaning. I have absolutely no evidence to support this; I'm speculating from my knowledge of modern French. On the other hand, the "backside" bit may come in if the original meaning was the road-of-logs-side-by-side. That would hurt your butt if you were riding in a carriage... --CJ, bilingual but otherwise clueless about the subject at hand. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 May 95 14:29:16 PST From: "Cynthia Barnes" Subject: Japanese OBI >Date: 29 Apr 95 16:48:16 EDT >From: Dee Wilson <100545.3105@compuserve.com> >Subject: Japanese OBI/corsetry >I am researching the history of health and domestic medicine 1750 - >1960. This mean I am looking at the history of what we have done to our >bodies and why. >Has anyone experience of Japanese costume and the obi ? > What does it do for the Japanese figure ? Can the western woman wear >it ? Does it help to achieve the stance/posture/attitude that Japanese >women are (were) supposed to have ? How tight is it worn ? I'm not Japanese, but I thought I would share my experience of wearing a full wedding kimono. When I was in school at William and Mary the Kyoto Fashion School came to give lectures and a fashion show of traditional and contemporary kimonos. Models, male & female, were chosen from Asia House where I lived. The school mostly brought teachers, and women who compete at making new obi designs (both the fabrics and the knots are invented together). Most of the kimonos were shown as 3 layers, the inside one is wrapped tightest (tho' still rather loose) and close to the back of the neck and a gauzy tie wraps around the waist. The hemline adjusted by hitching up the waist pulling fabric up thru the gauze. The fold is smoothed down, and a second piece of gauze ties it again. (I think women's kimonos only come in one size.) The pieces of gauze are looped, not knotted. They are snug, but dont pinch. The next kimono is slightly more open, starts with the CB collar slightly down the back, revealing just the tiniest bit of the lower kimono. Each successive kimono is more open in front, and the hemline is a little lower. The designer's obi were tied to resemble boxes, kites, flowers, birds, etc. They are not tight either. I was chosen to wear the wedding kimono because I have a long thin neck. This is apparently a key point of female beauty. The neck is exaggerated by having the back collar of each successive kimono drape lower than the previous collar. The models were permitted to walk among the audience after the "runway" portion of the show. My "extravagantly beautiful neck" was complimented by one of the visiting Japanese profs. (Was that a leer?) The entire wedding ensemble consisted of 7 kimonos, each tied twice w/ gauze. The inner was hunter green, others were pink, and white. (All were brocades & damasks.) The stunning outermost kimono was a 8+ color brocade weave depicting white cranes and red pagodas on a turquoise ground. The Obi was designed & tied to resemble a budding red flower with green sepal at my back. Henry Yamashita, modeled the groom's wardrobe which was a striking silk haori & hakama. The various pieces were in striped black & white, the haori tie and fan had red accents. Very handsome! Most of the models could bend & twist at the waist. I didnt dare! --cin PS. Since you asked: nobody has a figure in a kimono! With the tabi & sandals on your feet a woman is forced to shuffle demurely. Go to an Oban festival at a Buddhist temple (it's a spring thing) and watch the dancing. Enjoy the food! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 17:11:00 -0700 From: ccary@tiara.wpd.sgi.com (Christina Cary) Subject: Re: Obi > Dee Wilson was overheard to say.... > > > Has anyone experience of Japanese costume and the obi ? It is completely > > outside my knowledge. > > > > What does it do for the Japanese figure ? Can the western woman wear it ? > > Does it help to achieve the stance/posture/attitude that Japanese women are > > (were) supposed to have ? How tight is it worn ? If it was tight at > what age > > did girls start with it ? When I was in Japan several years ago, some Japanese friends wrapped me up in the traditional outfit. I felt the obi was not suitable for the Western figure (mine, at least), because it fits best on a straight figure. I have an hourglass figure, and the obi is not meant to curve or crease at the waist. They had to settle on moving it up my ribcage, instead of the ribs-to-upper-hips area that it is supposed to cover. It is quite snug and does help you keep your back straight. What does it "do" for the Japanese figure? I dont' know quite what that question means... I thought it suited them very well and looked much better on them than on me. It is not mean to change the figure, the way tight corsetting or Chinese foot-binding were. Very young girls can wear it. Little girls are dressed up in beautiful mini kimonos and obis for "Girls Day" every year. Christina ccary@tiara.wpd.sgi.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 May 1995 21:20:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Captain Elvis Sputnik Kid Subject: Re: Cordroy > From: IN%"paul@bozzie.demon.co.uk" 4-MAY-1995 16:04:14.95 > To: IN%"h-costume@andrew.cmu.EDU" > CC: > Subj: RE: Cordroy > > In message > I rather doubt that it's as old as that. > > As for the derivation of the word, opinions differ; however, it seems unlikely > that it would, as has been suggested, have come from "cul du Roi"... > > "Cul du Roi" means "The King's backside"! I believe the words are "Cord du Roi" or "Cloth of the King", or possibly (on a longshot) "Corps du Roi" or "Body of the King". ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 21:24:10 -0500 (CDT) From: BPH3213@ACS.TAMU.EDU Subject: re: Naturally Colored cotton For those interested in strains of naturally colored cotton, I would recommend reading James Butterworth's _The Antiquities of the Town, and a Complete History of the Trade of Manchester_ 1822 London, or reprinted as _A Complete History of the Cotton Trade_ in 1823. He has a section which lists numerous varieties of cotton known then that produced colors. Most were shades of brown, but also yellows, such as those used for Nankeen (before they tried imitation colors in Europe). Both works are available on microfilm in the Goldsmith collection from Univ of London. Bryan H bph3213@acs.tamu.edu ------------------------------ ------------------------------ End of Volume 296 -----------------------