From: "Philip Edward Cutone, III" Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 14:32:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 300, 5/10/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 300, May 10, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Please note that I am not the usual maintainer. If there is a problem with the digest please let me know (and forgive a few blunders.... :) this digest covers all messages Through May 8, not appearing in previous digests. Enjoy! Filip ------------------------------ Topics: Regency bonnet Muslin? Lingerie? Return of the Fabric Wars.... Corduroy Documentation for cotton Help! Lost wig posting House of Lucile J. Peterman Lingerie Amish clothing Renaissance Veiling Wool cycling clothing and health H-Costume Digest, Volume 295, 5/8/95 H-Costume Digest, Volume 283, 4/17/95 H-Costume Digest, Volume 285, 4/21/95 H-Costume Digest, Volume 286, 4/21/95 H-Costume Digest, Volume 288, 4/21/95 Renaissance Veiling H-Costume Digest, Volume 285, 4/21/95 Muslin? Lingerie? Return of the Fabric Wars.... Scottish shirts historical sources ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 May 95 01:52 CDT From: richardw@mcs.net (Richard Wasserman) Subject: Lingerie I recently read a bio - The It Girls - about two sisters, one of whom founded the early fashion house - House of Lucy. She apparently started the use of fashion salons, live models and lingerie. Perhaps this is of help? BTW, I really enjoy the discussions on this list. anne in chicago RichardW@mcs.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 08:13:27 CDT From: "Cindy Abel" Subject: re:Muslin? Lingerie? Return of the Fabric Wars.... Can I add a query as to when tweed, specifically herringbone outdoor/country wear for those who could afford it by the late 1800's. Did it exist as early as the late 1700's and who wore it. My earlier post about muslin being a fabric that didn't always hold up well to washing comes basically from some letters from the c1800 period, some from J. Austen. It appears that there were grades of muslin(quality and price)in an era when it first become very popular. The wearing of muslin gowns c1800 seems not to have been universal, at least not the fine white muslin gowns blamed for the outbreak of "muslin influenza," as I've seen pictures and one museum exibition showing gowns of that era of a heavier cloth(called calico) that were multicolored and patterned that were not necessarily worn by out of fashion "little old ladies." What I find fascinating about the early 19th c gowns for all of their apparent simplicity is that in them, you find some of the first back-fasening gowns--so even if one got rid of hoops and could dispense with stays--if you were thin and daring enough--one still needed the help of a maid, female relative, or in probably rare cases, a husband to dress if a female was upper middle class. Is the back zip/button dress or blouse the last reminant of a culture where a lady required assistance to dress I wonder? As a single lady who is not a natural contortionist, I now think twice before buying such back fasening garments. Cindy Abel Health Sciences Library Creighton University 2500 California Plaza Omaha NE 68178-0400 Phone: 402-280-5144 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 95 13:25:12 EDT From: 2Lt Aryeh JS Nusbacher Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 285, 4/21/95 James A. Staples <74252.3202@compuserve.com> wrote: > True, the Irish didn't wear kilts as we know them until around 1600. > The Scots (forever antangled in war with their ancient enemies, the > Scots) were wearing them sooner. I am amazed to hear that the Irish of Ireland (as opposed to the Eirs of the Scottish Highlands and Isles) wore "kilts as we know them" until Irish regiments in the British Army were authorised pipe bands in the 19th century. ccary@tiara.wpd.sgi.com (Christina Cary) said: > Rob Roy and his men spend all their time in plaid kilts and raggedy, > full shirts. (Liam Neeson looks fabulous in a skirt--um, I mean kilt--by > the way.) I noticed that the men seemed to be wearing different plaids, > I assume depending on their clan or family name. One of the great things about that movie was that Rab Ruadh was not wearing the Rob Roy MacGregor tartan. Rob Roy died before the first clan tartan was woven. And for those interested in the hacking: all the fencing was right out of Angelo -- could we expect less from William Hobbes as fight director? Cheers, Aryk Nusbacher | Post-Graduate War Studies Programme | Royal Military College of Canada | nusbacher-a@rmc.ca Kingston, Ontario http://www.rmc.ca/~nusbache/home.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 95 13:30:09 EDT From: 2Lt Aryeh JS Nusbacher Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 286, 4/21/95 KTRuby@aol.com asked: > Has anyone purchased items from The J. Peterman Company (Lexington Kentucky)? I, and many of the Trayned Bandes, have bought factory second shirts from the Peterman people. Their Jefferson shirts (and the shirtdress version) are very very very good. An employee of Peterman's is a sutler, but I cannot remember his name -- that's where the seconds came from. The rest of the catalogue is just worth drooling over... Cheers, Aryk Nusbacher | Post-Graduate War Studies Programme | Royal Military College of Canada | nusbacher-a@rmc.ca Kingston, Ontario http://www.rmc.ca/~nusbache/home.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 10:33:14 -0700 From: Alison Kondo Subject: House of Lucile Elinor Glyn the novielist (a few of her "steamy" novels became silent movies), who popularized the "it" (for sex appeal) phrase, & Lucile, Lady Duff Gordon, who founded a fashion house in England during the "teens". She did use live models & gave her fashion creations names like "The Sighing Sound of Lips Unsatisfied". I found quite a few mentiones of her in "history of 20th Century Fashion" by Elizabeth Ewing, Barnes & Noble, 1974, 1986. One of the chapters also mentioned Lucile had written an autobiography called "Discretions & Indiscretions" in 1932. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 95 10:41:08 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: Corduroy I checked the OED this weekend, and here's what I found out: The idea that "corduroy" derives from a French term meaning "cloth of the King" (or any variation on that) seems to be a myth, although an old one which was apparently in circulation almost immediately upon the introduction of the word to the English language c. 1685. In fact, there is no evidence that a French precursor existed. The OED also rejects the possibility, suggested by the American Heritage Dictionary, that the name derives from the cloth "duroy." The actual etymology is unknown, although the OED does suggest a possible derivation from the surname "Corderoy." We should keep in mind, of course, that, while the word "corduroy" may date from c. 1685, this does not rule out the possible existance of cloth similar to modern corduroy that was called by other names prior to that. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 May 95 13:36:44 EST From: "KATHLEEN NORVELL" Subject: Re[2]: Muslin? Lingerie? Return of the Fabric Wars.... This has nothing to do with muslin, but to respond to Dorothy's wondering about exhibit at Liberty's. There, in a case, was a red silk Fortuny gown (not just a length of fabric) pulled halfway through a wedding ring. It was accompanied by a phot of the gown's owner wearing it. It's not just hyperbole. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 95 11:05:24 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: RE: Amish clothing | And yes, there often are different standards for men's and women's clothing; | look just like everyone else except that they all wear beards and no ties, | while the women may still be wearing "cape" dresses. Some are less conservative than that. There is, or at least used to be, an inexpensive lodging house in Washington, DC called the "International Guest House," which was run by the Mennonites. It stayed there a couple of times and never realized they were Mennonites until I was told -- no "cape" dresses. I don't recall whether I met any of the men or not, or whether they were wearing beards if I did. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 May 95 13:59:19 EST From: "KATHLEEN NORVELL" Subject: Re[2]: Scottish shirts According to Scots of the period, an Englishman named Rawlinson invented the Highlanders working in his factory (smelting I believe) could have something to cover themselves with, but wouldn't have the excess plaid that could interfere with their activities, or even worse, catch fire. I have seen three or four sources on this story and no one to naysay it. I think that if Highlanders didn't wear shirts, some English or Continental observer would mention that "those barbarians didn't even wear shirts!" They mention Highland women going barefoot. I contend that if it was not different or unusual they didn't bother to mention it, hence shirts, and what Highland women wore UNDER their airisaids (which is never mentioned either). Sometimes what you don't say is as significant as what you do say. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 11:25:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Lori Kishimoto Subject: Help! Lost wig posting would like to do which requires five French Revolution-era powdered wigs. I remember seeing some addresses for catalogs/wig companies posted here where one can obtain some decent wigs for productions on a budget. Alas, I deleted them before I realized that I would need them. If anyone has that info, please e-mail me directly at: kishilek@dfw.wa.gov Thanks in advance, Lori Kishimoto ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 95 11:28:21 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: RE: Wool cycling clothing and health | I say this is great medical advice. In the 19th century, they | would presumably be cotton. I doubt that cyclists would be wearing | silk or linen. Cotton is truly a terrible fabric for cyclists. So every time I see a bicyclist wearing a T-shirt, I can presume it's made out of...? Cotton does, indeed, absorb moisture. However, cotton also breathes and is much cooler than any synthetic, hence there is less sweat for clothing to absorb. I, personally, have seen far more people injured by collisions, falls, and other accidents involving those mechanical contraptions than from wearing cotton fibers. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 95 11:34:29 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: RE: Renaissance Veiling | I am wondering if anyone has information on the length, composition, and/or The most likely material would have been a very fine linen known as "cobweb lawn." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 95 14:14:49 EDT From: "David W. Rickman" Subject: historical sources Hello, I've not seen the most recent digest, so I don't know if I got any response on the list from the message I posted last week about historical sources. However, Kathleen responded this morning off list and, with her permission, I am forwarding our exchange to the rest of you. Please let me know if this is not interesting. First, Kathleen's message: Hello Kathleen, >Thanks for your response to my message. Yes, I agree with both your points. >We must, of course, pay attention to the entire context of any period we are >studying. Like the blind men examining the elephant, we can draw some truly >embarrasing errors by working only with parts. Unfortunately, no one person >can know everything. I remember once watching the televised version of _The >Thorn Birds_ with a friend. I knew that for reasons of economy, the movie >was filmed in Southern California, not Australia where the story is set. My >first reaction, in light of this fact, was to notice the absolute absence of >Australian Aborigines. "How ridiculous," I said to my friend, "to set a >film in the Outback of Australia and show no Aborigines." My friend knew >nothing about anthropology, but he did know automobiles. "Yeah, but did you >notice that the cars are all left-hand drive," he pointed out. "In >Australia they have right-hand drive." So, each of us were correct in our >criticisms, but, given our interests and knowlege, each noticed a different >error. >Your other point is equally valid. It is an ideal of mine to assume nothing >until it is proven, but this has to be tempered with reason. The fact that >no shirt is mentioned for Highlanders could very well mean they went >barechested. However, as you point out, the act of going barechested would >be far more likely to find mention by English observers, than if the shirts >themselves were unremarkable. But in cases like this, we have to be very >careful how we proceed. I recently had an example of this. >I just finished editing a publication on costume in Russian America (those >areas in Alaska and California colonized by Russia in the last century). The >trickiest point came in the matter of what Russian peasants wore in America. >No clear original drawings have come to light that show Russian peasants in >Alaska or California, though there is a wealth of images from Russia and >Siberia. Only a few, ambiguous descriptions survive, as well as import >lists of textiles and other clothing goods. My own reasoning tells me that >the Russians peasants here dressed pretty much as they had in Russia, >especially since they only served seven year hitches in the colonies before >going home. The author, on the other hand, is convinced that the peasants >wore European-style clothing while serving in America. His reasoning is >that all the words in the Russian records used to describe pieces of >clothing worn by the peasant colonists are the words for European style >garments, not folk costume. A case in point is the word for shirt. Russian >peasant shirts are called _kosovortka_ and are characterized by the lack of >collar and cuffs and have an off-set closure at the throat. The word for a >European style shirt is _rubakha_. None of the records mention >_kosovortkas_, but there are frequent references to _rubakhas_. Therefore we >must assume that only the European style of shirt was worn in Russian >America, and not the Russian. But my answer to this is that the authors of >all these documents were Russians of the upper classes who grew up wearing >European style garments and called them by those names. Naturally, they >might even call even peasant garments by the names of the corresponding >garments in their own wardrobes. Now, both of these are plausible theories, >but they do not by themselves constitute proof. However, in this very >publication I am editing, an illustrated plate from the Russian naval >regulations of the 1830s is given, showing the trousers and shirts issued to >Russian sailors. There in the upper left corner is shown a peasant-style >shirt with an off-set closure at the throat and no cuffs. Printed in large >cyrillic characters beneath it is the word _rubakha_. This, again, is the >Russian word for a European shirt, and this shows that the author of these >regulations, an educated Russian of the same class as the bureaucrats in >America, was calling a _kosovortka_ a _rubakha_. I hope my example is >clear. >Another avenue of false reasoning is a bit simpler, and that is to assume >that people in the past must have had a garment simply because we think they >needed it. For example, anyone traveling in New Mexico or Arizona today >wouldn't think of spending a summer day outdoors without a hat on. But >ancient Native Americans in this region lived for centuries without hats, >and many do so today. Nor does this have anything to do with their skin >color. I've seen Native Americans in my gym class locker room and I can tell >you that they can be pretty fair skinned. From anthropologists we learn >that Native Americans of the Southwest also devised ointments for sunburn. >Elsewhere in America, Native Americans devised hats and other forms of >sunshades, but not in the hottest region of all, the Southwest. Culturally, >hats just were not seen as useful. >Well, this is fun, but I've got to go. Do you mind if I forward both our >messages to the mailing list? >David >drickman@DNREC@STATE.DE.US ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 95 14:53:39 EDT From: 2Lt Aryeh JS Nusbacher Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 283, 4/17/95 KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM wrote: > In response to Carol's question about the difference between Scottish > and Irish kilts, if you are referring to modern kilts, the difference is > that Irish kilts are solid colors (i.e., no tartan) and Scottish ones > are of a tartan or plaid material. With respect to regimental kilts, Scottish regiments sometimes wear solid hodden-grey kilts (cf. the London Scottish, the Liverpool Scottish, the Toronto Scottish) and sometimes tartan (cf. the Canadian Scottish). Highland regiments wear tartan kilts. Some Irish regiments (cf. the 2nd Bn Irish Regt of Canada) wear tartan kilts. The way to tell an Irish from a Scottish kilt is to look at the hat and see whether the wearer is topped with a cabeen (Irish), TOS, Balmoral or Glengarry (Scottish). You can also check the pipe band: Irish military pipes have two drones. I make no promises about my spelling of cabeen; but it looks like a great green pastry chef's toque. Aryk Nusbacher | Post-Graduate War Studies Programme | Royal Military College of Canada | nusbacher-a@rmc.ca Kingston, Ontario http://www.rmc.ca/~nusbache/home.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 95 14:58:06 EDT From: 2Lt Aryeh JS Nusbacher Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 288, 4/21/95 KTRuby@aol.com wrote: > I'm sure silk is not an appropriate fabric for a T-Tunic ... Why are you sure it is not? Aryk Nusbacher | Post-Graduate War Studies Programme | Royal Military College of Canada | nusbacher-a@rmc.ca Kingston, Ontario http://www.rmc.ca/~nusbache/home.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 May 95 15:29:33 EST From: "KATHLEEN NORVELL" Subject: Re[2]: H-Costume Digest, Volume 285, 4/21/95 There is no evidence I've ever seen that the Irish wore what we refer to as wearing the leine ("saffron shirt"), ionar (jacket), brat (mantle), and trews. See Derrick's "Image of Ireland" and many contemporary illustrations. After 1600, the English became ascendant in Ireland and the Irish pretty much wore English clothing. The English had proscribed Irish customs, clothing, and hairstyles (generally enforceable only in the Pale until after 1607) in the 1570s and forced the Irish to wear English clothing. Irish kilts are a modern invention for pipe bands and army troops. There also is little or no evidence that the Highlanders were wearing "kilts" before 1600. The first illustration of a Scot wearing what could be construed as a plaid dates to about 1600. The first mention of the great plaid occurs in the 1600s. Before that they were wearing what their fellow Celts, the Irish, were wearing. Contemporary illustrations of Highlanders in the late 1500s are indistinguishable from those of the Irish. After 1600, that peculiar relationship between the Irish and the Highlanders pretty much ceased with the "plantation" of lowland Scots Protestants into northern Ireland. The Highlands and Islands beame increasingly the keepers of the Celtic cuture, while the Irish were anglicized. Per the costumes in "Rob Roy," there was almost nothing about the Highland clothing in that film that was authentic. Yuk. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 14:53:42 +0000 From: "Paula Vaccariello" Subject: Regency bonnet Hi! I've been lurking for a while everything I've read is both interesting and useful so I'm hoping you can help me with a problem. I'm interested in the English Regency period and I've been trying to determine how to make a High Poke bonnet from that period. I haven't seen a supplier anywhere so I thought that I would make my own. I thought of possibly adapting a modern straw type hat but I haven't found one that has the right look. My other idea is to consruct one from scratch, maybe using a small round hat box as the back and something for the brim? Does anyone have any ideas or know where I can find the proper supplies? Thanks! ********************************************************************** Paula A. Vaccareillo "Knowledge is of two kinds. Southern Engineering Co. We know a subject ourselves, 1800 Peachtree St., N.W. or we know where we can find Atlanta, Ga. 30367-8301 information upon it." (404) 352-9200 voice - Samuel Johnson (404) 351-1196 fax Letter to Lord Chesterfield pav@america.net April 18, 1775 ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 16:46:44 -0500 (CDT) From: P_SHERYL@KCPL.LIB.MO.US Subject: J. Peterman Since I haven't seen anyone post the address for J. Peterman J. Peterman 2444 Palumbo Dr Lexington, KY 40509 1-800-874-4616 I was sent a free catalog when I called the toll-free number and asked for one. Hope this helps! Sheryl J. Nance Kansas City Mo Public Library p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 May 95 15:10:45 PST From: "Lynn Meyer" Subject: Re[2]: Muslin? Lingerie? Return of the Fabric Wars.... > Text item 1: > > | Regarding muslin gowns: I seem to recall reading somewhere that > | "muslin" then was not the same fabric we know as "muslin" now > > That's pretty common for a fabric name to be applied to cheaper and > cheaper materials over the years. If a new fabric is similar but > superior to an existing fabric, merchants will usually give it a > distinctive name to set it apart. However, if a new fabric is similar > but inferior to an existing fabric, merchants will usually give it the > name of the superior fabric, counting on name recognition to produce > sales. In time, the public comes to associate the name with the newer, > inferior material. Thus, there is a gradual erosion of quality. Another > good example, besides muslin, is burlap, a name which used to be a > material suitable for making gowns. A more modern example is Trigger > -- the material sold under this tradename is noteably inferior to what > was sold a few years ago. Then, of course, there are velvet, satin, > and tafetta, all off which used to mean types of silk but are now > commonly used to mean polyester or acetate. (So commonly that the real > stuff is now called "silk velvet," etc.) To a modern weaver, satin (and sateen) are weave structures; it doesn't matter what fiber is used, as long as the specific technical definition is met (a repeat of at least five warp and five weft threads, with long floats, and more detail that I won't go into). So you can have cotton satin, silk satin, whatever. I suspect the same is true of velvet. I have no idea if this was the case when the terms were first used... Lynn Meyer (SCA Halima de la Lucha) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 18:48:08 -0400 (EDT) From: cpecourt@mhv.net Subject: Documentation for cotton Not to start the cotton debate, but I came across a book that is a reference for the cotton trade in Italy in the middle ages. If anyone is interested its called _The Italian Cotton Industry in the later Middle Ages 1100-1600_ by Maureen Mazzaoui Cambridge University Press, 1981 Chantal ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 95 16:35:39 PDT From: susanf@EERC.Berkeley.Edu (Susan Fatemi) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 295, 5/8/95 Re: obi / corsets. recommendation of Lisa Dalby's book "Kimono", which shows how to pad the body for the desired cylidrical shape, and about wearing kimono, obi, etc. Also, in a previous digest, someone mentiond the book "make your own Japanese clothes" ; the author is John Marshall. He offers workshops in design and currently in paste-resist dying (very pricey workshops). He shows the padding and wearing of garments also. Dalby states that when wearing full rig and kneeling on the floor for hours on end, the obi padding definately added back support. Would Cindy post accumulated suggestions for graduate school to the list-- others might dream, too... IMHO, enough with the cotton / theory of historiography, etc. already! Jeesh. Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 23:01:13 -0400 From: MarieD0108@aol.com Subject: Re: Renaissance Veiling >| I am wondering if anyone has information on the length, composition, >| decoration of English Renaissance (1550-1580) veiling? > >The most likely material would have been a very fine linen known as >"cobweb lawn." Do you have any documentation of this? ------------------------------ ------------------------------ End of Volume 300 -----------------------