From: "Philip Edward Cutone, III" Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 16:13:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 302, 5/10/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 302, May 10, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Please note that I am not the usual maintainer. If there is a problem with the digest please let me know (and forgive a few blunders.... :) this digest covers all messages through May 9, not appearing in previous digests. Enjoy! Filip ------------------------------ Topics: Pattern for 15th cent Scotwoman H-Costume Digest, Volume 302, 5/10/95 Mess Jackets? Renaissance Veiling Rosaries Russian American women Vintage Sewing Manual for Sale goodbye, everyone necklines ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 11:35:59 -0700 From: Alison Kondo Subject: Mess Jackets? I'm not a military costume person, & was wondering what the difference between a mess jacket & a uniform jacket was. What occasions was the mess jacket worn for? Also, what was the social significance of the "mess". From the little I've read, it seems to have been an officers "club" rather than just a place to eat. Is this right? Alison ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 95 11:34:56 TZ From: Edward Wright Subject: Re: Renaissance Veiling | >| I am wondering if anyone has information on the length, composition, | and/or | >| decoration of English Renaissance (1550-1580) veiling? | > | >The most likely material would have been a very fine linen known as | >"cobweb lawn." | | Do you have any documentation of this? For a secondary source, see M. Channing Linthicum, Costume in the Drama of Shakespeare and his Contemporaries, Oxford 1936. For primary sources, lawn is referred to frequently in English accounts beginning c. 1415. It was mentioned, for example, in 1423 in Rotuli Parliamentorum, iv. 239; in 1446 in Testamenta Eboracensia, A Selection of Wills from the Registry at York, xiv. 101; in 1485 in an inventory of Thomas Gryslop; and in 1485 in Sommerset Wills, xvi. 255. It was mentioned as "cobweb lawn" in the play Scornful Lady (sorry, I can't locate the author and date at the moment) and as well as Eglington MSS. 32 (1603): IV.i.262 -- "12 yardis cobub lawn to my rufis...." Another possible fabric I find in Linthicum is Tiffany, "a corrupred form of Epiphany, and the name applied to a thin guaze-like fabric of soft silk and linen, probably originally worn on this festival. It could be had in black, and in fancy weaves...." The earliest primary source that Linthicum cites for Tiffany is 1554 in Wills and Inventories from the Registers of Commissary of Bury St. Edmonds, pub. 1850 by the Camden Soc., page 267. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 15:08:46 EDT From: elizabeth a fannin Subject: goodbye, everyone i didnt' want to just unsubscribe without saying bye. my job at osu ends june 2nd (we lost our grant, so i am one unemployed medical/other fields editor & sometimes graphics person). currently i am chasing jobs and just don't have ANY time to read; my account will eventually go away anyhow, and i guess it's time to say bye. i've really enjoyed this list, when i *did* have time to read! ;-) thanks to everyone for all the info. i'll have my account for awhile; if anyone wants to say bye, or wants to be notified of my new address, send me PRIVATE email; let's not clutter the bandwidth. ;-) i'll be on the net again--count on it! maybe i'll see you all then. thanks again for sharing what you know. --shakira liz fannin fannin@cis.ohio-state.edu (till june) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 15:20:22 -0400 From: C11Hartel@aol.com Subject: Re: Rosaries All of this talk about rosaries is fascinating. A few questions: 1.) How far back do rosaries date and from where? 2.) Can rosaries be made of any sort of metal and beads or do they have specific materials? If there are specific materals, do they have special meanings? Thanks for the help... Moriel*** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 95 15:16:22 EDT From: "David W. Rickman" Subject: Russian American women Hello, Jamie and I had an interesting exchange this morning, and, with his permission, I'd like to send it out to the general list. _____________________________________________________________________ David: >>>I just finished editing a publication on costume in Russian America (those >>areas in Alaska and California colonized by Russia in the last century). I've been wondering about this for weeks now and your last post piqued my curiosity enough to motivate me to write and ask you about it. What sort of women were in Rusian America and what did they wear? When I visited one of the Fort Ross Living History Days a couple years ago there were a lot of women running around in Russian folk dress. Were there peasant class females? What little reading I've done would lead me to think that the only Russian woman at the fort would have been someone like the Commanders wife and she would have dressed like any other upper class woman (ie, European lady's fashions.) The logical wives for the traders would have been indigenous women and their daughters (Metis, Creole, whatever the term for a mixed blood person.) At least this was the pattern pretty much everywhere else in America. And some how I don't think these women would have dressed like Russian folk dancers. Am I missing something big here? I'd be really interested in what adaptations Native American women did to their dress under Russain influence. Jamie Nikkel Jamie Nikkel jnikkel@barrnet.net Western Region Sales Administrator tel. sales: (415) 528-7100 BBN BARRNET tel. direct: (415) 528-7114 BBN Planet Corporation fax: (415) 934-2665 3801 East Bayshore Road http://www.barrnet.net Palo Alto, California 94303 USA PLANET HOTLINE (800) 662-4770 ______________________________________________________________________ Hello Jamie, Well! You just made my day! I'd _love_ to talk about women's costume in Russian America. Actually, you are quite right about women in Russian America, which is why living history events, especially first person, are a bit absurd at places like Fort Ross. There were never many Russian women in Russian America. At Fort Ross in the 1830s, as you suspected, there were probably fewer than ten, and most of those were female relatives of the manager of the colony. There were, however, others. The manager had at least one female serf with him. Other Russians, not just clerks, but even a few members of the working class, had their Russian wives with them, but these were by far the exception. Most Russian workers, and even a few officials, married native women (Aleuts and Indians). Their children were called "creoles." Creole women were much sought after as wives. All of this leads up to what the women of Russian America wore. Naturally, the comparative handful of Russian women of higher status wore European fashions. Their personal servants, including serfs, probably did so as well, though of a plainer sort. So did creole women married to Russian men of rank. We don't know, because there simply is no record, but if Russian folk costume was worn by women at all, it was probably by the few Russian wives of workers. Wet nurses, if any were present in the colony, might possibly wear the costume they were known by in Russia: an elaborate or fanciful version of folk costume. That folk costume, by the way, consisted of a blouse and a wide jumper with shoulder straps called a _sarafan_. Traditionally, married Russian women covered their heads with either a cap (_kokoshnik_), or else wore a scarf as a turban. A variation of this would be to leave aside the sarafan and wear only a blouse (with a fichu) and petticoat. Aleut and Pomo women, and creoles married to Russian workers are also problematic. I believe they wore long, simple tunics made of cotton, along with turbans when they married. Aleut women traditionally wore tunics of fur or birdskins, but these were replaced with blue or white Chinese cotton after the Russians arrived. Pomo women wore only skirts, so it seems probable that after they married Russians, and were integrated into society by baptism, that they would adopt clothing similar to Aleut women's. Creoles not married into the elite of the colony were probably similarly dressed. These women may also have worn traditional Russian blouses and skirts, or even sarfans. The problem with Living History Day events at Fort Ross State Park is that it is an open event, with everyone wearing a costume they bring from home. Though there is a core of well-costumed reenactors, the bulk of the volunteers ignore the published guidelines and treat this as a fancydress ball, wearing costumes that speak volumes about the wearer, but say little about history. Nice talking with you. David drickman@STATE.DE.US p.s. May I post our messages to the list? I think others might find this interesting. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 13:00:51 -0700 (PDT) From: John Burns Subject: necklines On 5 May 1995, Mrs C S Yeldham wrote: (stuff deleted) > > For example, Rosemary Muntus has been looking at shirts and smocks, and > reckons draw-string necklines are not around in England in the 16th century > - they come in in the 17th century. Accepting David's point about the As I am planning on making a new early Tudor-style dress, I am curious about what type of neckline they used. Was this also true for other areas of Europe (i.e. Italy). ANy information you can pass on will be appreciated. Susan > > Caroline > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 15:23:37 -0500 (EST) From: andrea ruth leed Subject: Re: Rosaries On a side note, here are the original latin texts for the Our Father and the Hail Mary: Pater noster qui es in coelis sanctificetur nomen tuum Adveniat regnum tuum Fiat voluntas tua et in terra sicut in coelo panem nostrum supersubstantialem da nobis hodie et dimitte nobis debita nostra sicut et dimittemus debitoribus nostris et ne nos inducas in tentationem, sed libera nos a malo. Amen. Ave Maria, gratia plena Dominus tecum Benedicta tu in mulieribus et benedictus fructus ventris tui. Drea Jerise de' Pellegrini On Tue, 9 May 1995, Staff - Michigan Health Promotion Clearinghouse wrote: > > >Even though I'm not Catholic, ... > Me neither, but I used to be married to > one, so I'll start, until someone who is, gives you a better answer. > > > Are the beads significant and is there more than one prayer that would be > >used with the rosary? > Each bead represents a prayer. Most frequent are > the "Our Father" probably known to you if you are any kind of a > non-catholic Christian, as "The Lord's Prayer"; and the "Hail Mary". Each > "decade" of the rosary (you'll notice there are groups of ten small beads > divided by larger ones) is a repetition. Seems to me there would be a > major culminating prayer when you get to the crucifix, but I don't know > about that part. Even the old generation, 2nd gen. American-Polish > grandmothers never seemd to actually say the rosary any more, in the > family I was married into. > > > I've seen holy people (nuns) in movies portrayed with the rosary belted to > > their waist. Was and is this common? > I think this is accurate. To relate this to historic costume, the one > thing I *have* been instructed would insult, is wearing the rosary around > one's neck like a necklace. > > > Would an average person in the late > > 1700's have done this also or just those who were part of a religious order? > I'm wondering where you are locating your midwife in the late 1700's.. > I'm not aware of many lay Catholics in the Americas then. But I'm not > aware of a lot of things that *are*. :) > > Joyous M. > > > > > ============================= aleed@ezmail.ucs.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 16:17:50 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb Subject: RE: Rosaries >> Would an average person in the late >> 1700's have done this also or just those who were part of a religious order? >I'm wondering where you are locating your midwife in the late 1700's.. >I'm not aware of many lay Catholics in the Americas then. But I'm not >aware of a lot of things that *are*. :) The "New France" region, including the Mississippi valley, was mostly populated (I'm told) by Catholic or Jesuit French. While the territory became English property in ~1753, the population stayed, and were fairly loyal to the Engligh crown BECAUSE it didn't stop them from keeping their own religion. Deb Baddorf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 15:32:02 -0700 From: cjsmith@fantasy.Stanford.EDU (CJ Smith) Subject: Re: Mess Jackets? > I'm not a military costume person, & was wondering what > the difference between a mess jacket & a uniform jacket was. > What occasions was the mess jacket worn for? Also, what was the > social significance of the "mess". From the little I've read, it > seems to have been an officers "club" rather than just a place to > eat. Is this right? For what service, in what country? I might be able to answer for US Army today (if I dig out my rules®s) -- would that help you? --CJ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 16:25:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Carol Cannon Subject: (fwd) Pattern for 15th cent Scotwoman (fwd) Greetings, folks! I was just hoping that someone in one of these two forums would be able to help Tammy. I'm certain someone can. Many thanks. Please note, the info is to go to the address below, NOT to cjcannon. Again, thanks!--Carol/Grannia From: tjdnjisp@crl.com (Tamara A. Smith) Does anyone know where I can find patterns, books, etc on what 15th - 16th cent. Scottish women wore? Also, does anyone know where I can find large size (24+) patterns for the Renaissance Faire? please drop me an email at tjdnjisp@crl.com. Thanks, Tammy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 95 19:37:07 PDT From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Vintage Sewing Manual for Sale I'm trying to get some control over the incredible amount of stuff in my life. . .Anyway, I want to sell one of my two copies of the first edition of _The Dressmaker_, no author credited, published by the Butterick Publishing Company in 1911. It's a hardcover book, 7" by 10", 130 pages. The (green) cover fabric is somewhat faded but the book itself is in great condition. It is advertised as "A Complete Book on all matters connected with Sewing and Dressmaking, from the simplest stitches to the cutting, making, altering, mending and caring for the clothes." It has step-by-step instructions illustrated with 324 black-and-white photos. It is a conservative dressmaking guide--suitable for the 1900s, and to some extent the 1890s, as well as the 1910s. I'd like $50 for the book and would prefer to sell it on a nonreturnable basis, rather than on approval. If anyone is interested, please send e-mail to aterry@teknowledge.com. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 22:42:25 -0400 From: TrystBass@aol.com Subject: Re: Rosaries C11Hartel@aol.com writes: >Can rosaries be made of any sort of metal and beads or do >they have specific materials? If there are specific >materals, do they have special meanings? Although I am in no way Catholic, I am a great afficianado of rosaries & have collected & viewed quite a few. I have seen rosaries in soooo many different materials, I really must conclude that there are few restrictions or special meanings. Crystal in every color seems popular, as are pearly substances (natural & synthetic), ordinary & exotic woods, all metal beads (very striking), and cheap brightly colored plastic. I've even seen plastic glow-in-the-dark rosaries! (definitely not for the devout!). The crucifix/cross style seems to vary as well -- I've seen some really unusual Art Deco crosses on vintage rosaries. Historical rosaries seem to have been made out of a similar variety of materials, & wealthy folks had rather fancy ones -- Mary Queen of Scots went to her death holding a beautiful worked gold rosary (the bead divisions weren't as pronounced as in modern ones, tho' the overall size was about the same). I don't know much about the *proper* wearing of rosaries, but Renaissance portraits show Catholics (such as Lord Seton & MQoS) wearing large crucifixes on cords (w/out any beads) around their necks. The rosaries are show in their hands or at their belts. I'd love to hear more on this subject! ---Trystan ------------------------------ End of Volume 302 -----------------------