From: "Philip Edward Cutone, III" Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 16:20:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 305, 5/12/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 305, May 12, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Please note that I am not the usual maintainer. If there is a problem with the digest please let me know (and forgive a few blunders.... :) This digest covers all messages through Noon May 11, not appearing in previous digests. There were some problems at first, but I believe I've ironed them out, except for the date problem in the last message. :) Enjoy! Filip ------------------------------ Topics: Rosary More on Rosaries H-Costume Digest, Volume 299, 5/10/95 belladonna Wigs H-Costume Digest, Volume 298, 5/10/95 Mess Jackets? Clothing for Clergy The request for Pattern for 15th cent Scotwoman ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 01:01:26 -0400 From: M2D@aol.com Subject: Rosary Yegads, does this bring back memories-I have not been a practicing Catholic in almost 20 years, but as i grew up just as the church was undergoing the transition from Latin to the vernacular (probably one of the reasons that I am no longer Catholic...), I will try to help you along. I have two old Missals; books of the ordinary of the Mass, or Catholic Church Service; one of St.Joseph, and the other of St. Andrew.St.Joseph's says this of the Rosary: "The Rosary calls to mind the five joyful, the five Sorrowful, and the five Glorious mysteries in the Life of Christ and His Blessed Mother. It is comprised of fifteen decades, each one consisting of one "Our Father", ten "Hail Marys"(sic), and one "Glory Be to the Father" HOW TO SAY THE ROSARY The Apostles Creed is said on the Crucifix; the Our Father is said on each of the large beads; the Hail Mary on each of the small beads; the Glory be to the Father after the three Hail Marys at the beginning of the Rosary, and after each group of Small Beads." The Prayers are as follows: HAIL MARY Hail Mary, full of Grace; The Lord is with thee, Blessed art thou amongst women, And Blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God; pray for us sinners, Now and at the hour of our death. Amen Ave Maria, gratia plena Dominus tecum: Benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui. (sorry, can't find the second half) OUR FATHER (Oh come on, you know this one) Pater noster, qui es in caelis: Sanctificetur nomen tuum: Adveniat regnum tuum: Fiat voluntas tua, sicut in caelo, et in terra. Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie: Et dimitte nobis debita nostra, sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris. Et ne nos inducas in tentationem Sed libera nos a malo. Amen GLORY BE TO THE FATHER Glory be to the Father and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, As it was in the beginning, Now and ever shall be, World without end. Amen The Apostle's Creed (said at the Crucifix) is not the Creed said in modern Mass today, which is the Nicene Creed (or CREDO) which was initiated after the Nicean conference in the 300's. When I can find the Latin for that I will send it along. Hope this helps for all you Catholic wannabes...(no offence meant ;) ) Mateus di Palmus (nah, it's really just Matt DiPalma) Date Wed, 10 May 1995 08:23:58 -0600 (CST) From BJHILL@STTHOMAS.EDU Subject Rosaries Let me first start of by saying that I am Catholic, and I work at a Catholic University, and since this subject has raised a lot of speculation on the rosary et al. My impression from childhood and continueing with discussions with pastors, priests and Nuns leads me to believe the following. If the chacter is part of a religious order, and also a midwife then it is ok to hang the rosary over a belt one is wearing around the waist. This makes it handy to repaet the rosary while walking or in a chapel, etc. If the person is not of a religoius order then I would suggest not wearing it in public as a religious item. This would have the effect of demeaning the value of the cross as a holy item. A history of the Rosary, St. Dominac had a vision from Mary to do this in about 1495. The Pope at the time did not denounce the Rosary, but did not support it either. Popes since this time have supported the Rosary. The Rosary we know today is the same that was around in the 16th Century. With the only difference being a small prayer that was added in 1917. The Rosary was said in the native language of the person reciting it. Only if the person reciting it was raised speaking only latin, would the recitation be conducted in Latin! The recitation of the Rosary is like a mantra, You do not concentrate on the words, but on the mysteries of that set of decades. Recitation of the Rosary: 1. (Start with the Cross) Make the sign of the cross, and recite the Apostle Creed. 2. (1st Bead) Our Father 3. (2nd, 3rd and 4th Bead) 3 Hail Marys, one for each bead. 4. (5th Bead) Glory be to the Father. 5. (Triangle shaped piece) Announce 1st Mystery; Our Father (prayer) 6. (1st set of 10 beads or decades) 10 Hail Marys, one for each bead. 7. (next bead that is by itself) Glory be to the Father. 8. (Next set of 10 beads or Decades) Repeat last three steps. The Rosary is also called the Psalter of Mary, because its 150 Aves correspond to the number of psalms. The Mysteries of the Rosary Joyful Mysteries 1. The Annunciation 2. The Visitation 3. The Nativity 4. The Presentation 5. The finding of Jesus in the Temple These would lead you all around the Rosary for Monday & Thursday. The mysteries refer to Humility, Charity, Poverty, Obedience, and Piety, respectively in that order. Sorrowful Mysteries - Tuesday and Friday 1. The Agony in the Garden - Repentance 2. The Scourging at the Pillar - Purity 3. The Crowning with Thorns - Courage 4. The Carrying of the Cross - Patience 5. The Crucifiction - Self-renounciation Glorious Mysteries - Sundays, Wednesdays and Saturdays 1. The Resurrection - Faith 2. The Ascension - Hope 3. The Descent of the Holy Spirit Upon the Apostles - Love 4. The Assumption - Eternal Happiness 5. The Coronation of Mary - Marian Devotion The days of the week may be a modern invention. The repition of the words leads the reciter to contemplate the mysteries. Like walking and chewing gum. By doing it often enough the words flow and the meaning can then be explored and contemplated on the Mysteries of the Rosary. If you would like I can also post the Our Father, Hail Mary, Glory Be to the Father and Apostles Creed privately so as not to fill up the space of fellow listmembers who may not be interested. A alternative however to this, is that My wifes Character is VERY Catholic and 3 time a day. The significance I am not sure, but will e-mail you privately, as this is getting outside the charter for this list. Your most humble servant, brian hill, bjhill@stthomas.edu the imbicilent clark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 01:05:56 -0400 From: M2D@aol.com Subject: More on Rosaries Rosaries were NEVER worn as a necklace; doing so was considered the height of bad luck and bordered on the edge of heresy. Crucifixes were nearly always worn, though not always visibly. this is a Catholic thing, not just a French thing... All Catholics said the Rosary, often many times a day (5+) clear up to the present when the everyday world encroached upon our all too valuable time... Keep it up and I hope this helps Matt DiPalma ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 02:13:44 -0400 From: NeenH@aol.com Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 299, 5/10/95 Dorothy Stein wrote >The business about pulling a length of fine cloth through a ring >pops up so often (it was said of Egyptian material that was called 'woven >wind'; and also of fine Indian cotton, also called something like 'woven >air' or 'breeze cloth') that I'm beginning to think it was simply >hyperbole. from my knitting books (by Elizabeth Zimmerman, I think it was the Knitter's Workshop) I learned about Scottish shawls, made from wool lace thread that could be drawn through a wedding ring. I managed to find a kit of that stuff at a local yarn shop (the Massachusetts owner had been in Scotland the year before and couldn't resist it, I really lucked out! I got the only kit she had) and made a shawl for my 2nd child. The thread sticks to everything and is a pain to work with, but I can pull that thing through my ring! It's ~36 inches per side, maybe a little bigger. I wouldn't be surprised to find lots of different sorts of cloth that can be squished. The lace shawls are made on big needles, with fine thread, so there's LOTS of air space, which is why it works, and doesn't take forever to make. NeenH ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 95 09:52:44 BST From: Alan Braggins Subject: Re: belladonna > > How about white lead powder, or belladonna eyedrops? > > What effect do belladonna eyedrops produce? How deadly is this (isn't > belladonna poisonous?)? > I've seen two explanations (but can't remember where - I thought it might have been on this list, but if so I didn't save it). The more traditional explanation is that it dilates the pupils of the eye, (simulating the effect of a reflex once described by a vet friend of mine a response to "the 3 F's - fear, feeding, and reproduction" - the same reason (partly) candlelit dinners are considered romantic). The alternative response is that the dilation wouldn't have been really noticable in dark eyes, but it would produce a slight blurring of the user's vision, making her skin look smoother when she looked in a mirror, making her _think_ she looked better... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 08:12:00 -0400 From: Ladyspnr@aol.com Subject: RE: Wigs In a recent posting someone asked for the address for a wig manufacturer. I'm not sure if this is the address they are looking for, but I just received a catalog from Lacy Costume Wig. I haven't ordered from them yet, but the catalog looks really interesting. Lacey Costume Wig - (800) 562-9911 or (212) 695-1996. They are located in New York. I received my catalog about three days after I requested it. Karri ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 95 07:42 CDT From: tallison@mcs.com (Tim Allison) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 298, 5/10/95 Danine Re your question about batiste. Janet Burgess of Amazon Drygoods has a fabric that she says is the closest modern equivalent to regency-era muslin. She has also mentioned that if it were possible to guarantee enough sales, it might be possible to get the original fabric made up. So if we can all get enough costumers interested--- Carol Mitchell Carol Mitchell Caroline Richenda of the White Rose ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 11:23:58 GMT From: paul@bozzie.demon.co.uk (Paul C. Dickie) Subject: Re: Mess Jackets? In message Title-L@smtpgw.nctsw.navy.mil writes: > > On US and British ships since well before the Rev War, enlisted food has > traditionally been paid-for by the Navy, but officers must chip in to pay > for their own, which is prepared and served by enlisted stewards. The club > of officers who eat together in the Wardroom (which may or may not include > the commanding officer) and the associated fund pool is a "mess". ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Perhaps someone should point out that this is not *necessarily* a comment on military accountancy? o-) Paul C. Dickie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 10:24:54 -0500 From: Allison Welch Subject: Clothing for Clergy I had originally posted a request for pattern information concerning the traditional minister's shirt with the stand- up collar and white insert on the other sewing newsgroups, thinking that it might not be appropriate here. However, since the Rosary/Cassock thread has emerged, I'll post the summary of my own (unsuccessful) research which includes information on the making of vestments. If anyone has any information on the shirt pattern, I would be grateful to have it. ------- I would like to thank all of you who responded to my inquiry of a pattern for a minister's shirt. Unfortunately, I have not located a pattern, but thought I would share with those interested the information I've found along the way. One person thought she had seen a pattern in one of the "big 4" pattern books towards the end of last year. She suggested looking in the old pattern books at fabric stores or calling home-ec teachers. Unfortunately, none of the fabric stores here in Austin have the books from last year and none of the home-ec teachers I've called have the books or know of the pattern. Perhaps the pattern will show up in a future book. My next step was to look for commercially made shirts to see just how the collar is constructed. Austin has several church supply stores (Emmaus and Augsburg Fortress to name two) which carry the "Friar Tuck" shirts. They range in price from about $27 to about $32. I was able to examine the collar which is just a wee bit wider than a turtle neck collar, but is folded down to make a casing. The stiff white clerical collar is inserted into the casing so that the white part shows only at the front of the shirt. The colors for the shirts were the basic black, gray and white. These shirts can be mail-ordered from at least one company: Fortress Church Supplies: 1-800-421-0239. Given the expense and the need for several shirts in the wardrobe, it certainly would be ideal to make these. One person wrote in and told me of nice floral shirts for women clergy made in the Carribean, so the use of color for these shirts has expanded beyond the black, gray, and white. This same person also wrote in that one could create a lucrative business sewing vestments for clergy. She wrote that: >The poncho type things (chasibules) start at about $300 and >can go into the $thousands ! It seems like really simple >sewing - the fabric and the embellishments are what really >make the garment. Indeed! I looked very closely at these at the church supply stores. The used ones (with faded fabric) were around $300. I did find a book with patterns for chasibules, banners, and vestments at Augsburg (a branch of Fortress Church Supplies mentioned ealier): Rebecca Jerdee. _Fabric Applique for Worship: Patterns and Guide for Sewing Banners, Vestments and ?_. (sorry don't remember what the 3rd word was). Minneapolis: Augsburg Publishing House, 1982. Again, the number for ordering is: 1-800-421-0239. There were other books with embroidery patterns and books on making banners, but this was the only one I saw for making clothing. Now, back to the shirts: The only pattern I found which has this type of collar is a cassock pattern: Butterick 6765, $4.50. One can just use the collar pattern with a regular button-down shirt pattern. The cassock itself is a nice one: fitted to the waist, but with large, full pleats in the back. This is for men and boys. The only other patterns I've found were for choir robes of different styles. Here are a few: McCalls 7528, robe (pleated but not full) with 5 detachable collars. Butterick 3819, full robe with pleated sleeves at the yoke, overlapping yoke front with collar attachments Butterick 3820, full, gathered robe, zipper front closure with 2 collar styles Someone also suggested Amazon Dry Goods as a source. They, too, have a cassock pattern with a stand-up collar, but from the drawing, I cannot determine whether the collar has a casing for the white insert. The pattern number is #101. I have an old catalogue and the price at the time was $12.95. There is also a pattern for a crochet surplice for women, #201 and was $5.95. You can order via phone at 1-800-798-7979. Another person wrote in and said he had a book which contains instructions for drafting your own patterns for this clothing. Hopefully, he will post the bibliographic information to share with everyone. Cheers, -Allison Welch (awbm@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 10:25:55 -0600 (MDT) From: "Carol E. Newby" Subject: Re: The request for Pattern for 15th cent Scotwoman Yes, yes, *please* post any information on what scottish women wore to the list, I have also been searching and have found only secondary research that I *know* is not 100% accurate in some respect. thanks, Carol * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "Unless you are the lead dog, /\_/\ The view is always the same." > < > ^ ^ < source: bumper sticker >(_o_)< U ------------------------------ End of Volume 305 -----------------------