From: "Philip Edward Cutone, III" Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 09:41:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 307, 5/18/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 307, May 19, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Please note that I am not the usual maintainer. If there is a problem with the digest please let me know (and forgive a few blunders.... :) this digest covers all messages through May 12 not appearing in previous digests. Sorry for the delay. I only have so much time sadly enough. I'm sneaking this is at work as it is. Enjoy! Filip ------------------------------ Topics: COSTUME RESOURCES 18th-century and Victorian posture and dance Legends Costumes Rosaries/Portraying Catholics "Bloom" information Shoes Mess Jacket Seconding the request for Pattern for 15th cent Scotwoma No Sacrilege Intended Re[2]: H-Costume Digest, Volume 298, 5/10/95 Seconding the request for Pattern for 15th cent Scotwoma Rosary Pattern for 15th Century... H-Costume Digest, Volume 305, 5/12/95 16th c. (close anyway) Scotswomen costume resources Small dress sizes 18/19 c shoulders, &c. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 10:05:49 GMT From: Ruth@lamerton.demon.co.uk (Ruth Marler) Subject: COSTUME RESOURCES Reply-To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu COSTUME RESOURCES: Bethnal Green Museum, Cambridge heath Rd,London E2 (branch of Victoria & Albert Museum) Blaise Castle Folk Museum, Henbury, Bristol Castle Museum, Tower St, York Central Museum & Art Gallery, Guildhall Rd, Northampton City Museum, Brunswick Rd, Gloucester The Gallery of English Costume, Platt Hall, Manchester 14 The Laing Municipal Art Gallery and Museum,Higham Pl, Newcastle-upon-Tyne The London Museum, Kensington Palace, London, W1 The Museum of Costume, Assembly Rooms, Bath Salisbury and South Wiltshire Museum, 42 St Anne St, Salisbury,Wiltshire The Victoria and Albert Museum, London SW7 The Wade Collection, Snowshill Manor, near Broadway (National Trust) ***************************** Centre de Documentation du Costume, 79 Avenue de la Republique, Paris Musee du Costume de la Ville de Paris (annexe du Musee Carnavalet, 23 Rue de Sevigne, Paris) ****************************** Nationalmuseet, Copenhagen Nordiska Museet, Stockholm ***************************** Fashion Research Centre,4 The Circus, Bath, Avon, BA1 2EW Tel: 01225-477000 ext. 7752 Open Mon to Fri (NOT Bank Holidays) Mon to Thurs 9.30 to 5pm ( Fri 9.30 to 4pm) Library of Fashion Archives (books, fashion plates, magazines etc) Hands-on collection of costume. This is a VERY SMALL centre (capacity 8-10 people). I was told that if you want to look at the books you COULD just turn up BUT for hands-on costume stuff you MUST write/phone to discuss requirements and make appointment. When I spoke to them and said that you were a costume designer, they thought that you would benefit from a visit BUT you would get the most out of a visit by discussing requirements in advance! I hope that this is of some help. (All other places on the list were taken from a list in a book - but I happened to remember the Fashion Research Centre and phoned them for info for you.) -- *********************************************** * from Ruth Marler in Hampton,Middx,England. * * Ruth@lamerton.demon.co.uk * *********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 11:14:20 +0100 (BST) From: Dorothy Stein Subject: Re: 18th-century and Victorian posture and dance Reply-To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu I am not sure from your message whether you are Allan Terry or Fran Grimble, but, whichever, the late Doris Langley Moore, whom I found the most interesting and cogent analyst of the development of fashion trends, and whose own collection is the foundation of the costume museum in Bath, pointed out that very small dresses are more likely to survive over time, since 1) relatively few women can wear them; and 2) there is not enough cloth for them to be made over into smaller garments. On Thu, 11 May 1995, Allan Terry wrote: > Re recent postings on the 18th-century "shoulders back" posture: yes, this > was different from Victorian posture, but many extant Victorian garments > also have extremely narrow backs. I think the very narrow backs and > ribcages of any period that prized them were due largely to corsetry that > began before adolescence to mold the skeleton to the desired shape. Plus a > lack of exercise that would unduly (in the eyes of the period) develop the > skeleton and muscles, plus posture/deportment training including dance. And > of course, people wore clothing that gave the appearance of greater > conformity to the desired body shape than they actually had. Portrait > painters (and even photographers) helped the illusion along further. > > I'm 4'9" tall--a quite reasonable pre-20th-century woman's height--have a > medium frame, am not overweight, and do not pump iron. Although I own many > Victorian garments that fit me, I've also tried on many, styled for an adult > woman, that were for someone my height, but with a _much_ narrower ribcage > and back. Sometimes my biceps are too big to fit through the sleeves. > Especially with 1880s dresses which have the narrowest torso of any > period--even the bust seems to be suppressed. > > I think the differences between the desired 18th-century and Victorian body > shapes and posture were due simply to fashion. However, I don't think this > fashion change was necessarily connected to the "rise of the middle > classes." As a historic dancer, I'd like to see a strong dance connection > but am not sure this is true. > > The 18th century was a period in which movement in daily life was an > indication of social class. People did, for example, walk with toes turned > out. However, this is not technically difficult--it is simply a habit. It > is not uncomfortable and does not affect balance. Although the upper > classes in the 18th century did have, in many cases, a great deal of dance > training not all the dances were hard. The minuet is fairly easy, as is the > late-century allemande. Also, although the country dances did not use > walking steps in this period they are quite easy. I've certainly known > modern people who work full time at demanding careers (other than dance) and > also manage to be good at 18th-century dance. > > On the other hand, although Victorian dance is easier than baroque dance the > couple dances do require turnout, the five basic foot positions, attention > to posture, and, to be done well, lessons. Also, dance manuals contain many > interesting variations on the very basic waltzes, polkas, etc., generally > seen at modern Victorian balls. > > I have 1850s manuals that indicate some people walked through quadrilles > while others still did fancy footwork. There were also lots of quadrilles > using the basic couple dances (e.g., polka quadrilles). > > Fran Grimble > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 09:15:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Staff - Michigan Health Promotion Clearinghouse Subject: Legends Costumes Reply-To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu I just saw Legends of the Fall, (please don't delete me already) 8-), and I'm not sure if I am just uneducated about 19teens costume, or if the movie's costumes ran hot & cold. The girl's dresses looked pretty good to me, but many of the men's clothes looked like the costumers went down to the mall & bought them all. Especially the work coats. Please enlighten me. But my biggest question was this, Susanna had on a diamond ring when she was engaged to Samuel. Were diamond engagement rings the norm at that time? When did that tradition start? Thanks, Joyous M. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 12 May 1995 9:28am ET From: t.korpita@mail.dpc.umassp.edu Subject: Rosaries/Portraying Catholics Reply-To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu Heres my .02, from another practicing Catholic who prays the Rosary. Yes, a rosary would be a common item for a Catholic to own. They are frequently given as gifts on occasions like a child's First Communion... It is reasonable to think a devout Catholic would keep it handy to say a few prayers in odd moments of the day. It is a meditative prayer however, and not appropriate for times when there is a lot going on around. As to my reaction to seeing a re-enactor carrying/having a rosary. IMHO I would be careful. I am sensitive to non-Catholic giving distorted, incomplete portrayals of Catholic life. If you chose to carry a rosary, be educated enough to answer many questions about your "Catholic" lifestyle - How often do you go to Mass? Do you speak/read Latin? What's the role of other sacraments in your life? What's your character's attitude, relationship to non-Catholics of that period? (Especially important in Anglo re-enactments of 1700s! - Do you plan to spend the day in the stocks? or worse?) A rosary is a religious, sacramental, object. NOT A PROP! ALWAYS treat it with dignity. For the history of the rosary, read up on St. Dominic (13th c.), St Alan de la Roche (sp? 13th or 14th c.) and St. Louis de Montfort (18th c.) who all actively encouraged this devotion. BTW, I have a recipe for rose petal beads. I believe it's Victorian. Terrie. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 8:35:54 -0500 (CDT) From: VICKI@lib.uttyl.edu Subject: "Bloom" information Reply-To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu The ISBN for "Bloom" is 0-87099-749-1. The address for the Metropolitan Museum of Art is: Metropolitan Museum of Art 1000 Fifth Avenue New York, NY 10028-0198 The phone number is: (212) 879-5500 The fax number is: (212) 570-3847, although that might go straight to the library Vicki Betts University of Texas at Tyler vicki@lib.uttyl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 09:32:58 -0600 (CST) From: BJHILL@STTHOMAS.EDU Subject: Shoes Reply-To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu Shoes, for this time period can vary widely, depending on a lot of other conditions. Namely, how accessible are you to a cordwain? Is the there a cobbler practicing in the area, so that you may have repairs conducted? Are you skilled enough to do these repairs yourself? Is your social status such that you would have manufactured shoes (as oppossed to homemade shoes, which may be more like slippers or moccassins) If you can answer yes to all of the above, then I would say that, by all means wear manufactured shoes. If your social status is not very high, there is no one to make the shoes or to keep them well heeled (i.e. a rich husband or a cobbler) wear whats comfortable for you, most likely moccasins when at rendezvous. Thats my 2 farthings, for what it's worth. On another note, Is anyone interested in discussing areas outside of costumry for the late 1700's and early 1800's ? I have many questions, but the only answers I can find. I have to rely upon the written word? Please e-mail me privately off-list if you do. I remain your most humble servant, brian hill, bjhill@stthomas the imbicilent clark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 95 11:05:35 EST From: "KATHLEEN NORVELL" Subject: Re: Mess Jacket Reply-To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu Aryk -- What's a collar dog? I've heard of a dog collar, but ... Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 95 11:14:31 EST From: "KATHLEEN NORVELL" Subject: Re: Shoes Reply-To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu In reply to your query about shoes in the northern Ohio territories in the late 1700s, I think the type of shoe a woman would wear would depend on whether she was a French or English settler, an Indian, etc. Also, if she had access to traders or a fort where sutlers might carry shoes. Give me a little more detail and I'll see what I can do. I have a friend in Ohio who is very involved with 18th century living history, and if he doesn't know the answer, he'll know some one who does. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 95 11:35:02 EST From: "KATHLEEN NORVELL" Subject: Re: Seconding the request for Pattern for 15th cent Scotwoma Reply-To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu I promise to get back to people on this topic as soon as I do some more research. What I have done indicates that 15th & 16th century Scotswomen wore the same thing as Irish women of the time period as was true of men in those two countries at the time. Let me haul out my research on Irish clothing and I'll post something ASAP. In the meantime, may I recommend McClintock's "Old Irish and Highland Dress" (out of print) and Mairead Dunleavy's book on irish clothing (the title of which always escapes me; it may simply be "Irish Clothing") for information. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 10:38:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb Subject: RE: Shoes Reply-To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu >Anyway here's my question, what kind of shoes would be correct for a woman in >the late 1700's in Northern Ohio or the Ohio Territory? I have seen >everything from moccasins to wooden shoes to plain modern black flat shoes >being worn. I have threatened to wear my moccasins inside a pair of wooden >shoes if it doesn't stop raining around here soon, but would hate to invest >in them if they are grossly incorrect for the period. Most of the low-countries (low lying, and/or wet) did and still do use wooden shoes. (Saw it on PBS within the last 5 years). It is not just the Dutch. I have Diderot plates showing wooden shoes in the 18th century. My French 1779 character and her buddies in the Lake Michigan/ Mississippi River Valley region wear moccasins (adopted from the indigenous Indians) inside our wooden shoes on wet or cold days. Slip off the wooden shoes and use just the moccasins when you reach dry land (or hearth). So I think you are right on track with your threat!! However, it does depend possibly on your nationality, and more certainly on your wealth/social status. My own character has fancy leather shoes and doesn't really OWN a decent pair of wooden shoes (that fit). But I portray a wealthy woman. When it is TOO soggy, I wear older clothes and portray my serving maid, instead! <===========================================================> < Deb Baddorf Marie Susanne Godin Viviat Baddorf@fnal.gov trader's widow from Kaskaskia, Miss.River Baddorf@fnal.bitnet Fort Ste Joseph's milita, NWTA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 11:42:42 -0400 From: Ladyspnr@aol.com Subject: No Sacrilege Intended Reply-To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu I want to drop a quick note to everyone who has expressed concern about my query on rosaries. I do not intend to use my rosary as a PROP or a toy. I would NEVER use any religious item from any faith in an undignified manner. I asked the question and posed the idea because I am trying to round out my personna for accuracy and authenticity. I am trying to create a personna that represents the kind of person I feel I would have been if I lived in the late 1700's, not a movie character or a charade of that time period. I feel that I would have been the kind of person who helped others, followed where my husband wanted to go and tried to raise my children correctly. (Just like now). Ex. I don't believe I would have been a "tavern wench" Sorry to raise such concerns. It was not intentional. Yours in friendship, Karri @->->- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 11:42:42 -0400 From: Ladyspnr@aol.com Subject: No Sacrilege Intended Reply-To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu I want to drop a quick note to everyone who has expressed concern about my query on rosaries. I do not intend to use my rosary as a PROP or a toy. I would NEVER use any religious item from any faith in an undignified manner. I asked the question and posed the idea because I am trying to round out my personna for accuracy and authenticity. I am trying to create a personna that represents the kind of person I feel I would have been if I lived in the late 1700's, not a movie character or a charade of that time period. I feel that I would have been the kind of person who helped others, followed where my husband wanted to go and tried to raise my children correctly. (Just like now). Ex. I don't believe I would have been a "tavern wench" Sorry to raise such concerns. It was not intentional. Yours in friendship, Karri @->->- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 95 11:37:59 EST From: "KATHLEEN NORVELL" Subject: Re[2]: H-Costume Digest, Volume 298, 5/10/95 Reply-To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu Ooh, count me in on real batiste. KAthleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 14:50:40 -0300 (ADT) From: Rick Gaigneur Subject: Re: Seconding the request for Pattern for 15th cent Scotwoma Reply-To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu On Fri, 12 May 1995, KATHLEEN NORVELL wrote: > I'll post something ASAP. In the meantime, may I recommend McClintock's "Old > Irish and Highland Dress" (out of print) and Mairead Dunleavy's book on irish > clothing (the title of which always escapes me; it may simply be "Irish > Clothing") for information. I think the book in question is: Dress in Ireland by Mairead Dunleavy ISBN 0-8419-1269-6 US $59.95 Holmes and Meier Publishing Inc. A Division of IUB 160 Broadway E Wing 94th Floor New York, NY, USA 10038 Ph: (212) 374-0100 or (800) 698-7781 Fax: (212) 374-1313 >Aetheric< ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 14:50:40 -0300 (ADT) From: Rick Gaigneur Subject: Re: Seconding the request for Pattern for 15th cent Scotwoma Reply-To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu On Fri, 12 May 1995, KATHLEEN NORVELL wrote: > I'll post something ASAP. In the meantime, may I recommend McClintock's "Old > Irish and Highland Dress" (out of print) and Mairead Dunleavy's book on irish > clothing (the title of which always escapes me; it may simply be "Irish > Clothing") for information. I think the book in question is: Dress in Ireland by Mairead Dunleavy ISBN 0-8419-1269-6 US $59.95 Holmes and Meier Publishing Inc. A Division of IUB 160 Broadway E Wing 94th Floor New York, NY, USA 10038 Ph: (212) 374-0100 or (800) 698-7781 Fax: (212) 374-1313 >Aetheric< ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 13:20:02 -0500 (EST) From: dbrowne Subject: Rosary Reply-To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu Well as usual I can't find exastally what I'm looking for. My computer "jock" husband is out of town for the weekend and he compacted my files and I can't get them opened. But here's a couple of interesting tid-bits Dennison, Walter and Charles R. Morey "Studies In East Christian and Roman Art" The MacMillion Co. NY; 1918 P134-136. There follows a discrription of a Roman grave opened in 1393 "The female held in her left hand a medalion in the shape of a heart made of gold. The inscription read (translated from the latin) "Hail thou art highly favored * the Lord is with thee" I have not been able to track down their sources but I'm still looking. An interesting thought, could this be the beginning of the modern "Hail Mary"? Wilkins, Eithne "The Rose-Garden Game: The Symbolic Background to the European Prayer Beeds" Victyor Gollancz LTD, London; 1969 p48. "The Minnesinger Ulrich von Lichtenstein in his 'Vouwenbuch'(Womens book) c.e. 1257 mentions Paternosters as part of a lady's rich attire...'to have a brooch hanging from the beads insteading of fixing the beads by means of a broch if frivioulous". I'll find that quote about Lady Godiva... Kathy B Katrinn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 14:36:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb Subject: RE: Rosary Reply-To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu >P134-136. There follows a discrription of a Roman grave opened in 1393 >"The female held in her left hand a medalion in the shape of a heart made >of gold. The inscription read (translated from the latin) "Hail thou art >highly favored * the Lord is with thee" >I have not been able to track down their sources but I'm still looking. >An interesting thought, could this be the beginning of the modern "Hail >Mary"? Do you mean "the beginning of the rosary"? I'm not a Catholic, but the "Hail Mary" prayer itself (at least as far as you quoted it herein) is nearly straight out of the Bible -- it's what the angel said to Mary when he appeared to her. Some of the rest of it is what Mary's cousin Elisabeth said to Mary, when Mary visited Elisabeth. <===============================================================> < Deb Baddorf Fermilab, MS220 Arthurian,Inkling,&Regency buff Baddorf@fnal.gov PO Box 500 Costumer, RevWar re-enactor Baddorf@fnal.bitnet Batavia, IL 60510 MAC Q605 w/ IIe emulator & FPU ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 95 13:02:02 PDT From: linda@Synopsys.COM (Linda Roy) Subject: Pattern for 15th Century... Reply-To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu > Irish and Highland Dress" (out of print) and Mairead Dunleavy's book on irish > clothing (the title of which always escapes me; it may simply be "Irish > Clothing") for information. > > Kathleen > kathleen@anstec.com > The title is Dress in Ireland, by Mairead Dunlevy (ISBN 0 7134 5251 X). It might be out of print already; it was not available in the Dublin bookstores last Christmas. Linda linda@synopsys.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 95 16:22:35 PDT From: susanf@EERC.Berkeley.Edu (Susan Fatemi) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 305, 5/12/95 Reply-To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu Misc: Belladonna is a tincture made from deadly nightshade. It is or was used medicinally, as a narcotic. I think I first read about its use to dilate "pretty ladies'" eyes in a novel years ago, Captain from Castile. of course, belladonna *means* pretty lady. Somebody asked about chasubles and their derivation and ecclesiastical garments in general. There are several books on this subject and how they mostly derive from ordinary garments of Roman times. I can't remember any titles offhand, tho' they tend to have names like "church vestments". no, I lie. The title of the best one I've seen (but do not own) is Church vestments: their origin and development / by Herbert Norris. publ. in NY, unknown date (prob. 50-60's) Check your local library or nearest academic library, or even a church library or bookstore. Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 16:30:38 PST From: "Regina Voorhes" Subject: (Fwd) 16th c. (close anyway) Scotswomen Reply-To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu To: tjdnjisp@crl.com, etc. At h-costume list Subject: 16th c. (close anyway) Scotswomen Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 13:05:57 Hi, I spent 8 years reseaching this very subject, if you mean Highland Scots. I was able to find THREE pictures that might be usable as supporting documentation for a good primary source. I did not find a good primary source. It appears that no one wanted to paint or describe the women of the Highlands. (Unless you were a reigning monarch or mistress of one.) I suggest you investigate Irish clothes. The cultures are interchangeable until the end of the 16th C. And there are about 5 pictures and at least one extant garment. A veritable wealth.. You could have picked a harder time and place, I suppose, but I don't know what it would be. Regina Lawson Voorhes (I wish I was clever, but I'm usually just stubborn.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 22:20:21 -0400 From: MySisHolly@aol.com Subject: costume resources Reply-To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu I was in Bath several years ago. What a wonderful city to shop in and I only say that because in addition to the Museum, there was a wonderful little shop nearby that sold vintage clothing. Really great turn of the century stuff and some even earlier. If it's still there, it will be worth a stop in. Sorry I can't be more specific of location, but they might know of it at the museum. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 95 19:45:55 PDT From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Small dress sizes Reply-To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu Dorothy, I have heard Moore's theory that small-sized garments are more likely to survive because there is not enough material to reuse. What I was saying, actually, is that I have tried on many Victorian dresses made for someone my height (4'9") but which are much too small in the ribcage and across the back. Since I have a normally developed skeleton, without excessive fat on it in those areas, I assume the skeletons of the original wearers were suppressed. However, I also own Victorian dresses that fit me well, and have passed up many more because they were much too big. I'm not sure how meaningful Moore's theory is, statistically. For one thing, reusing material did not mean that a garment had to be remade into another whole garment of the same type. Material was often reused for smaller garments (such as shoulder capes), or parts of a dress (styles from the 1870s into the 1890s often combined several fabrics, which was ideal for recycling), or garments for a teenager or child. Even a large dress contains less reusable fabric than might appear because some areas have become too worn or stained to reuse. Also the fabric has been cut into pieces, which is harder to make up than the same amount of fabric would be off the bolt. For another thing, I suspect the question of "why people save garments" is more complex than the commonly advanced reason of "everybody was thrifty in those days, so if they didn't remake this garment it must be because they couldn't" plus the other reason of "it must have been saved for its sentimental value, therefore it must have been a wedding dress." Having acquired Victorian ragbags and "bit boxes" at estate auctions, I suspect a lot of stuff was saved because the owner (and his/her heirs!) was planning to get around to it someday, but never did. And other things were saved because the owner didn't weed out/clean up that much. Also, people attach sentimental, or at least personal, value to many things unrelated to weddings, things that may not seem important to anyone else. Of course, when someone dies the heirs may store anything they left out of sentiment. In my opinion, for the Victorian and later periods the best sources for information on proportions and height--both men's and women's--are patterns. Victorian and Edwardian tailor's drafting manuals often contain information on the author's proportional system; also the patterns are often drawn to scale. There are also magazines with dressmaker's patterns that use proportional systems. Paper pattern companies also had (and still have) systems of proportion. Information about these is available in sewing manuals as well as on the patterns and pattern envelopes. Granted, the problem with any proportional system is that it doesn't fit everybody perfectly; meaning the patterns have to be custom fitted. Still, I think pattern sources show trends in actual, as well as ideal, body types. The patterns were intended for use and making them usable by the greatest number of people was an important marketing point. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 22:53:39 -0400 From: M2D@aol.com Subject: Re: 18/19 c shoulders, &c. Reply-To: h-costume+@andrew.cmu.edu Dee, You write: "3. There is a difference and it was due to "that was how you carried yourself in 18C." Believe it or not, this is likely to be the case. I have tried on coats made from patterns drafted in the mid-19th century and have found that the armscye is much too tight around my arms... until I arch my back, thrust my chest out, and roll my shoulders back; the fit is perfect! I can remember that my g-grandmother used to constantly chide me to sit up straight, all they while thinking that I was! Posture was much more emphasized then than it is now, and people's stature has changed markedly over the past 150 years. Check progressions of portraits of Congressmen (I know, ugh!) over that time frame and you will find that throughout the late 1800's, the shoulders gradually roll forward until you get the thoroughly relaxed portraits such as the ones of Wilson and Coolidge. Hope that helps, Matt "got tired of copying rosary info" DiPalma ------------------------------ ------------------------------ End of Volume 307 -----------------------