From: Gretchen Miller Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 18:57:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 313, 5/30/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 313, May 30, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: History of cross-stitch Review "Who Wore What: Women's Wear 1861-1865" 1916 edition "Clothing for Women" available ISO: Documentation for loose-backed Italian Ren dress Regency men's clothing pattern sources Costumes in "Immortal Beloved" Question and answers:: Patterns for English men's clothing 1300-1500 ISO: Reproduction needlework tools, circa 1800-1830 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 25 May 95 19:38:18 EDT From: deirdre@cybernetics.net (Charlene S- Noto) Subject: Re: needlwork/renaissance question At 09:23 AM 5/25/95 -0500, P_SHERYL@KCPL.LIB.MO.US wrote: >Does anyone know if >cross-stitch or anything similar was done in England around 1550? > >Thanks for the help. >Sheryl J. Nance >p_sheryl@kcpl.lib.mo.us > > Sheryl, Cross-stitch was done during that period in England, what we know as Long-arm cross-stitch. There are several pattern books that use a combination of or alternate patterns of Spanish-stitch and cross-stitch. Have you ever considered Spanish-stitch? It is also known as True-stitch, the Holbein stitch or a double running stitch. It is very easy for people who know cross-stitch to pick up, it is VERY authentic, simply beautiful and I find it easier than cross-stitch. If you would like more information on this, please email me. I wrote an article that you might be interested in. -Charlene =============================================================== Charlene Noto Internet:deirdre@cybernetics.net CIS: 75374,3154 SCA: Deirdre of Boolteens, Barony of Sacred Stone Vert, On a Chevron Or, Three Butterflies Sable, In Chief Erminois =============================================================== ------------------------------ From: VICKI@lib.uttyl.edu Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 20:07:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: New book by Juanita Leisch I was at Kennesaw Mountain on Saturday and purchased Juanita Leisch's new book--_Who Wore What? Women's Wear, 1861-1865_, Gettysburg: Thomas Publications, 1995, and I would *highly* recommend it to any and all women Civil War reenactors. The ISBN is 0-939631-81-4, it cost me $29.95 (hardbound), and the address for Thomas Publications is P.O. Box 3031, Gettysburg, PA 17325. Juanita, who is very well known in Civil War civilian circles, used her extensive CDV collection to do a statistical study of which women wore which styles during the early 1860's. In other words, what did a very young woman wear that an older one would not, what would a wealthier woman wear that a poorer one would not? She attempts to separate the urban photographs from the rural, and admits that there is "more information from northern than southern sources. However, it is noted that the photographs with southern backmarks exhibited clothing characteristics which were consistent with the general conclusions. The economic realities of life in the south require that those portraying southerners take particular note of differences between urban and rural, and of economic variations." The typical "look", according to Juanita's research, is no cap, no net, confined hair, dress of one fabric, fitted bodice, jewel neck, broach, collar that lays down less than 2.5" wide of white cloth, two-piece coat sleeves with either cuffs or undersleeves, straight waistline, 50/50 chance on belt, knife pleated skirt, and skirt not touching the ground. There are variations from this "norm" but I would suggest a really good source of documentation before going too far afield. This book includes tens, if not over a hundred, reproductions of photographs, along with diagrams, and even some photographs of originals. She goes through nets, caps, hairstyles, ensembles, bodices, white shirts, necklines, collars, sleeves, cuffs and undersleeves, gloves and mitts, waist shapes, belts, waist treatments for skirts, skirt lengths, fabric, trim, special occasion clothing, undergarments, outer wear, head wear, and accessories, including aprons, eyeglasses, fans, handkerchiefs, jewelry, parasols and umbrellas, bags and reticules, and veils. If I have any criticism at all, it would be the lack of photographs of the "washer" dress--the one you wore to slop the pigs, do the washing, and chop the wood. This would include the "Southern homespun dress" which, in my opinion, was more common than some of our Northern sisters might think, even if it does not often show up in museums or in photographs. However, I do think that this book should almost be a mandatory purchase for every new civilian woman reenactor, both for the research and for the wealth of photo graphs included. By the way, I also have a copy of _The Look of the Ladies: Clothing During the Civil War_, the catalog accompanying a temporary exhibit (Jan-June 1995) at the Civil War Library and Museum in Philadelphia. The guests curators were Linda Duffy and Juanita Leisch. This 24 page booklet includes twelve color photographs of clothing, plus more in black and white. The text is similar to _Who Wore What_, but it includes some children's clothing. Vicki Betts vicki@lib.uttyl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 95 18:53:25 PDT From: aterry@teknowledge.com (Allan Terry) Subject: 1916 Sewing Manual I recently found out I have another duplicate 1910s sewing manual. My libaray is getting out of hand. Last time I counted, in 1993, I had over 700 costume books and I buy more regularly. And that's not including all the _other_ books in my library, which I've never counted but I know there are hundreds more in several categories. I'm starting to feel like I'm not keeping it together very well, but don't have the energy to catalog all the books. Anyway, the manual is the 1916 edition of _Clothing for Women_, by Laura Baldt., published in Philadalphia by J. B. Lippincott Company. It is 454 5 1/2" x 8 1/4" pages long, with 262 black-and-white photos and a few color illustrations. It is the most complete manual on all aspects of women's clothing construction that I have come across for this period. It includes information on design (the reader is urged to study histories of costume, and there is a chart of historic costume drawings). Also information on budgeting your wardrobe (on $150 a year), colors, fabrics, pattern drafting, draping, fitting, sewing equipment, stitches, cutting out, basting, fitting, trimming, and embroidery. Of particular interest are several chapters each focusing on how to make a particular type of garment (such as tailored skirts). Anyway, I paid $55 for this book and anyone who wants it can have it for that plus shipping if shipped. It is in solid condition but the (light brown) cover is streaked and there are a few notes penciled by the original owner (a student at the Connecticut Agricultural College). If you're interested, please send e-mail to aterry@teknowledge.com Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 21:09:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Mary M Spila Subject: Italian Ren. Gown Hi, Several years ago I mad up a handout on how to make the loose-backed Italian gown, from instructions told to me by a friend. I currently do not have any documentation for it (So if you have some, PLEASE send me the references!!!!), and I need to reprint and illustrate it. If anyone is interested in I can send it out. Let me know OFF LIST!!! So that I can determine if we need to do the SASE thing or not. (I can front some postage but not a lot.) Mary S. SCA: Lady Marian O'Liam, Clann Kyle mms6824@tntech.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 May 95 19:06:01 PDT From: aterry@teknowledge.com (Allan Terry) Subject: Regency men's patterns Brian, In my opinion the most authentic Regency men's patterns are the ones taken directly from originals and the patterns in original tailoring manuals. The books I'd recommend are: Burnham, Dorothy K. _Cut My Cote_. Toronto: Royal Ontario Museum, 1973. This book has a good Regency shirt pattern, which I've made, and I'm pretty sure it is still in print. Shep, R. L., ed. _Late Georgian Costume_. Mendocino: R. L. Shep, 1991. This reprint includes a period drafting manual, _The Tailor's Friendly Instructor_, and _The Art of Tying the Cravat_. Waugh, Norah. _The Cut of Men's Clothes 1600-1930_. New York: Theatre Arts Books, 1964. This book contains some Regency patterns and construction information. It was recently reprinted. There are some reenactment patterns for Regency men's clothes. I have not tried them and don't know whether they are any improvement on these books. I doubt they are more authentic. Tailoring a 19th-century jacket is not easy, but can be done by an inexperienced person if he/she is willing to learn. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ From: "HEATHER ASPINALL" Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 13:26:40 EST10 Subject: Movie "Immortal Beloved" Hi all! I don't know whether I've missed any discussion of the movie "Immortal Beloved" (about the loves and life of Ludwig van Beethoven) but I was wondering what you Regency/Empire experts out there thought of the costumes. I'm not much of an expert on this period but am interested in it. I must admit I found some of the costumes a bit shocking to say the least (and I don't think I'm _too_ shy about these things!) :-) I had read that in some fashionable circles women didn't wear underwear (or at least corsets) under their gowns during this period but I was under the impression that it was still rather scandalous to not wear anything! One of the main characters in the movie (played by actress Valeria Golino) spent most of her part quite obviously without any underwear under her gowns. In one scene it was all I could do to concentrate on the drama when her breasts were so obviously displayed through a light batiste/muslin-like fabric! Is this really usual for this period, or is it a 20th century way of getting people to come and watch your movie? Also, in the scene where she meets Beethoven for the first time she's wearing a blue brocaded silk overgown (?) which seems to have a sack back (like gowns from the latter half of the 18th century - I think!). Was this also common? Is it something that's seen in transition around the turn of the century? Apart from those points I thought the costumes were quite lavish, using beautiful silks and fabrics in rich colours, with lots of very romantically draped long flowing shawls etc. Isabella Rosselini's character, at one stage, is in Hungary (I think?) and wears a very interesting costume which seems to be a sort of blended Empire/folk-type costume. I'd be interested to know what others thought of the costumes as there's been a bit of Regency talk here recently. Cheers for now. Heather Aspinall aspinall@rsbs-central.anu.edu.au ------------------------------ From: "Lance W. Day" Subject: Patterns for Men's Clothing, England 1350-1500AD ? Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 00:45:12 -0400 (EDT) I was wondering if anyone here would be able (and so kind) to give me some references / sources for patterns for English men's dress in the period 1350-1500 (Peasantry and Aristocracy). I've seen lots of references here for women's costumes, but not too many for men. While I'm sure they'd look great (in and of themselves) there are two negatives to my constructing and wearing them. First, they (certainly) wouldn't fit; second (and more important to me) it would raise the sort of eyebrows I'd rather not raise. I'm looking to construct a costume befitting my persona which meets the prerequisites for attending my first SCA event. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 95 00:53 CDT From: tallison@mcs.com (Tim Allison) Subject: Space-Time Continuum This message is for Sue. I'd have sent e-mail but your address is not shown. Please explain what you mean about credit for information. And please tell Bjo that it took me several months to track down the address for the Space Time Continuum in order to resubscribe. I finally sent an appeal for help to a Star Trek newsgroup. Carol Mitchell Caroline Richenda of the White Rose ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 08:18:07 CDT From: SANDY STAEBELL Subject: needlework tools Greetings! My institution has a reconstructed log house that we interpret during the period of life in Kentucky during the 1830s. Research indicates that the man who built the structure was relatively well to do so the interpretation reflects that fact. The house is furnished with a mix of reproductions copied from artifacts dating from the early 1800s through the 1830s. I am looking for someone who can supply reproduction needlework tools appropriate for this period. I would appreciate suggestions of vendors or craftsmen who specialize in such things. Please respond via this list or to my private e-mail address listed below. Thank you in advance. Sandy Staebell staebsl@wkuvx1.wku.edu ------------------------------ From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Fri, 26 May 95 10:46:42 EST Subject: Re: Patterns for Men's Clothing, England 1350-1500AD ? Medieval Miscellanea carries patterns for men's medieval clothing, including accessories and hose patterns. I personally find the patterns difficult to work with, and I've been doing both men's and women's medieval and Renaissance clothing for more than 20 years, but some people swear by them. They are available from Raiments: Raiments P.O.Box 93095 Pasadena, CA 91109 (818) 797-2723 Fax: (818) 791-9434 I have used "Evolution of Fashion" by Hill and Bucknell since it was first published in 1968 and have worn out my original hardcover copy. The patterns are for theatrical purposes, so they are not necessarily authentic (however, since we don't have a lot of extant medieval clothing to work from, I hope the quthenticity police won't quibble), but I find they work well. You need to know something about sewing and be able to work around some of the incorrect or awkward pattern pieces (like where to put sleeve seams). All in all, I've done well by the book. There are others out there, but I will let other people post more info on them. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Fri, 26 May 95 11:22:40 EST Subject: Re: Regency Era Costume For Brian, who wanted info on men's Regency clothing. Some one has sent a list of books that are informative. Let me add my 2 cents. Colors were conservative, usually black, dark blue, bottle green coats and white breeches. The clothing was known for its cut and tailoring rather than decoration. Shirt: similar to typical 18th century shirt, but with a high standing collar, which would appear above the stock.] Stock: white, frequently linen, stiffened at the back and buckled at the back; or the long cravat like 18th century. Coat: earlier (c. 1805) doublebreasted tailcoat, worn bottoned. Cut high at the waist to show the waistcoat. Wide revers with an "M-notch" between the upper and lower parts of the lapels. Sleeves gathered & padded at the armhole, close fitting, no cuffs. Waistcoat: earlier (c. 1805) singlebreasted with stepped collar and lapels, worn left open about halfway up to show the ruffles of the shirt. Breeches (long pantaloons): earlier (c. 1805) frequently worn with high boots. Reached to ankles. Side seams open with button fastenings to facilitate pulling them on. Stockings: usually white. Shoes: low slipperlike shoes with pointed toes and ribbon bows rather than buckles. Hats: earlier (c. 1805) bicorne (Chapeau Bras) Hair: short, curly, especially in front. Brushed forward over cheekbones. All of the following is c. 1815. Shirt: similar to previous fashion. Coat: tailcoat, usually singlebreasted with wide lapels and a deep collar (M- notch again). Front usually not buttoned. Seam at waistline (i.e., tails sewed on separately?). Sleeves gatehred to armhole, no padding, taper to wrist and extend over knuckles. Waistcoat: singlebreasted, square cut with stepped, standing collar. Very tight. Worn partly buttoned. Breeches: Cut with high waist. Pleated on either side in front. Short enough to revel stockings (or socks) and ankles. Stockings: Shorter socks sometimes worn. Generally white, but could be plain, ribbed, embroidered, striped. Shoes: heelless slippers. Hat: black, brown, grey, beaver. Tall crowned with concave sides and a curling brim. Hair: similar to previous fashion. Accessories: short gloves, fobs, pocket watches, canes, umbrellas, etc. In general, the coat front was lower than the earlier fashion, nearly to waist. The shoulders were rounded. The coattails were smaller and shorter -- above the knee in length, with a center back vent. The following patterns seem to be appropraite. Note that I have some of them, but have not used them yet.If nothing else, they will serve as a good start. They may need modification to be more authentic,but every little bit helps. Eagles View Patterns: Mens broadfall drop front breeches and pants. PM/73(EV) $7 Mill Farm Period Patterns: Man's shirt 303(MF) $5 Rocking Horse Farm: Regency Tail Coat 201 (RH) $20 probably needs modification 1812 waistcoat 199(RH) $8 Coachman coat 200(RH) $19 Period Impressions: shirt 756(PI) $9 All of the above patterns are available from Raiments [free plug]: Raiments P.O. Box 93095 Pasadena, CA 91109 (818) 797-2723 fax: (818) 791-9434 Good luck. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 95 09:19:20 PDT From: "SNORTON.US.ORACLE.COM" Subject: Regency Men's Patterns Kathleen recently posted a list of information and patterns that is clear and comprehensive. The following short list is really an addendum to Kathleen's information. Additional Patterns, available from Amazon Dry Goods Missouri River: Vouageur's Shirt, 4799-500-002 $9.75 Green River: Drop Sleeve Shirt 10 $12.50 Tail Coat 27 12.50 Pegee: Men's and Boy's shirt, PEG 4 $15.00 Men's and Boy's Breeches, PEG 5 15.00 Bill Brown's Patterns: Man's Coat $22.00 Man's Vest 16.00 Man's Shirt 15.00 Trousers 18.00 These patterns are fascinating. Mr. Brown found a suit of men's clothes in an old sofa he brought. He dates the clothes between 1820-1840. The patterns are drawn from the suit he found and are available only in size 42. The patterns come with interesting historical notes but, limited instructions. The originals were, ofcourse, handsewn, and some of the construction requires handsewing. I know these garments are just a bit late for our Regency discussions but, they are very interesting and might work for someone interested in creating a late Regency/1820 ensemble. Also from Raiments Tailoring Custom Sewing: Ca. 1815 Tailcoat, 38M(HE) $22.00 Minimal instructions, size 40-42 only A few notes on colours and fabric: Tailcoat: I've seen two originals in dark maroon. The fabric I've found often is described as wool broadcloth. Breeches: I've seen several pairs in tan. Fashion illustrations of the period frequently show them in black. Stock (or cravat): Might also be made of silk. I'm making a waistcoat now using the Period Impressions pattern. I think it's going to turn out nicely. A friend of mine is planing on making a tailcoat using the Period Impressions pattern. I'll ask her for a report when she is finished. Sally Norton snorton@US.oracle.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 95 09:58:36 PDT From: "SNORTON.US.ORACLE.COM" Subject: Immortal Beloved costumes I thought the costumes in Immortal Beloved were beautiful and did a very good job of conveying the period onscreen in a popular medium. It's important to remember a period film is not a documentary. The goals of the film costumer are not identical to that of the historian. The corset question always opens up a lively debate. The design of the corset did change in the 1790s. It was shorter, made of lighter fabric, had much less boning, and often had little bobbles in the back to make the dress stand out a bit. There are many examples of these corsets in costume books. After 1800 the corset became longer to create the columnar line required under empire dresses. These corsets often had no boning but, rather elaborate and beautiful quilting. Boned corsets did not disappear. Corsets did have a busk because the desired look was for the breasts to be raised and separated. The stories of women not wearing anything under their gowns are really limited to a very short period of time in France and in the very upper levels of the social/economic strata. We've all seen some wonderful paintings from this period showing women in filmy white dresses and little else. Remember, these paintings were a romantic ideal, not necessarily a depiction of what the same woman wore during the day, to a musicale, a dinner, or a ball. There are a very limited number of actual accounts of "nudity". But, nudity is relative. The perception of nudity very much depends on the fashions that have gone before. The Regency dress has short, small sleeves; the dress was made of light muslins. The 1780s dress had 3/4 sleeves and was made of heavier silks. Therefore, the arm in the Regency dress appeared "nude". Most women did wear pale pink or flesh coloured stockings. The dresses were not lined and required a undergarment that functioned much like a long slip today. These two undergarments are well documented and many examples are available in museum collections. The fashion for not wearing corsets was limited to the young, slender, fashionable, and aristocratic. A clergyman's daughter in the country wouldn't dare. But, the character played by Vaeria Golino certainly might dare and could probably get away with it. Corseted or not the height of fashion was for very low necklines. Not everyone wore them. There are numerous dresses in books and museums that show a still low, but less startling neckline but, there are plenty of examples that do make one gasp. My first reaction to a couple of these dresses was "How did she dare to dance? One enthusiastic leap and EVERYTHING might have been on display!!" Regarding the gown Heather described: "Also, in the scene where she meets Beethoven for the first time she's wearing a blue brocaded silk overgown (?) which seems to have a sack back (like gowns from the latter half of the 18th century - I think!). Was this also common? Is it something that's seen in transition around the turn of the century?" The answers are yes and yes. It was called an overdress or half robe. (Rocking Horse Farm has a pattern for this that is quite nice). It's not exactly a sacque back, just very gathered. The skirt portion of the back might be attached to the back with a horizontal seam or the entire back could be sewn in long vertical seams. Either way, the back was fitted in the upper body and full and loose in the skirt. It was made of a contrasting fabric from the dress. The overdress fastened in the center front of the bodice. It might have a half skirt in front or none. The Costume Institute has a beautiful yellow silk gown of this type. If you have access to their small book, there is a very good photo of it. This style is shown in many fashion illustrations c. 1795-1802. And finally, a small side note on the first scene in the film. Remember the casket is raised and is carred through the crowds? Many people in the crowd are wearing dark capes. Those capes were made in Italy. They are wool. All 600 of them were sold to a store in LA called It's A Wrap. This store sells overflow, stock costumes from TV and film. They do not sell "star" pieces -- costumes worn by principle characters, only things worn by extras. Most of their stock consists of contemporary pieces of TV shows but occassionaly they get something interesting, such as the IB capes. I bought one. They sold them for $20. It was a steal. The capes were all maroon, navy, and brown. Some had attached capelets, others did not. They also had a supply of top hats. These were also made in Italy of wool. They were very well made but all of one small size!! I bought one just to have. I don't know any man with a head small enough to wear it! They had a few of the cloth bonnets. These are soft fabric, very nodescript. Everything is gone now and It's A Wrap does not do phone orders. But, I thing it is interesting to examine film costumes and find out the odd places where they sometimes end up! Sally Norton snorton@US.oracle.com ------------------------------ End of Volume 313 -----------------------