From: Gretchen Miller Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 19:11:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 314, 5/30/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 314, May 30, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: History of covering the hair Regency men's wear patterns and clothing Costumes in "Immortal Beloved" Costume Society of America meeting in Detroit Question and answer: Resources for medieval/ren embroidery Needlework tools, circa 1800-1830 Medieval clothing reference ISO: Info on War of 1812 uniforms ISO: Info on 14th-15th C Scottish women's costume Italian ren costuming resources Question and answer: Info on 18th C women's body shapes and sizes ISO: Info on Colonial woman's day dress ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lonnie D Harvel Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 13:01:07 -0400 Subject: Re: 500 - 1500 ? > > >Dear Eliz, could you spell out some of the 'various reasons' why women in > >so many countries have covered their hair? As far as I know, it is usually > >connected with the notions of submission and sexual modesty. > > I feel that's carrying it to an extreme deep-seated origin that I > didn't intend. Rather, due to the scope of the request, I was > referring to the fact that areas and times differed in hair covering > due to marital status, religious standards, spiritual beliefs, > superstitions, etc. > > ...eliz > Or perhaps orignally it was intended to keep their hair out of the way, and later "explanations" developed as the stereotypes evolved? This is common with many aspect of our society, especially those that relate to our religious and social mores. (not a knock, I am religious myself.) ------------------------------ Subject: Re: 500 - 1500 ? Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 13:20:03 -0400 From: Elizabeth Lear >Or perhaps orignally it was intended to keep their hair out of the way, and >later "explanations" developed as the stereotypes evolved? Also an excellent point. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. ...eliz ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 1995 14:04:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Library - Vineland Research Station Subject: Re: regency men's patterns My brother purchased the Bill Brown patterns and I couldn't recommend them. The rise in the crotch of the trousers were too low and he had to put a gusset in the crotch just to be able to walk in them! The jacket has a waist seam, which, if I recall correctly, didn't come in until the 1820's. I used it anyways to make a gentlemen's coat for my husband, joining the the waist to the tails in order to NOT have a seam. It turned out "OK" but I found it difficult to sew. I later used a Parks Canada pattern (Sorry guys, they investigated selling commercial patterns, but the red tape made it impossible!) which was much easier to sew and looked great! An interesting aside - in "Memoirs of a Highland Lady" she states that men in Britain universally wore either green or blue coats, and buff or read waistcoats depending on your politics - Buff for Whigs and Red for Tories I think. Contemporary illustrations show the frill down the front neck opening as being very finely pleated (with a gofering tool?) Other accounts mention black or "snuff" coloured jackets. Sir Walter Scott mentions "dimity" waistcoats in the preface of one of his books of this period, and "Textiles in America" (Darn, I'm at work now and the book is at home) shows examples of waistcoat fabrics. Sheridan Alder ------------------------------ From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Fri, 26 May 95 14:30:03 EST Subject: Re: Regency Men's Patterns For Sally Norton: Are the breeches you talked about in your posting the knee breeches or the long pantaloons? I've heard of *knee breeches* in tan or fawn, rather than white. I was referring to the long ones. I'd like to know where you've seen examples, just so I can add that to my "they always did such-and- such" shoot-down list.Any help is appreciated. I'll bet a maroon coat is really handsome, and in keeping with the conservative, plain motif. Thanks. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Fri, 26 May 95 14:38:21 EST Subject: Re: Immortal Beloved costumes The thing I found fascinating about the costumes in "Immortal Beloved" was that they seemed to be a combination of high Empire fashion and folk dress, which seems appropriate in Hungary or Austria, which may have been more inclined to adapt folk wear into everyday clothing. I really lusted after that blue silk half robe. A few years ago, I saw an exhibit on Napoleonic clothing at the Met (the day after I saw one on clothing from 1740 to the French Revolution at the Fashion Institute of Technology -- talk about serendipity). The women's clothing ranged from the incredibly light, filmy pastel dresses we all know and love, through dropdead court gowns to sensible cotton print frocks. Something for everyone and all to die for.None of the dresses were transparent that I recall, but with a light behind them, they could be seen through. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ From: JPMcTeer@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 15:40:19 -0400 Subject: CSA in Detroit Is anyone else going to the Costume Society of America national meeting in Detroit next week? I would be interested in meeting any members of this list in person. I don't communicate on the list very often, but my longtime interest is "body shaping through boning" for historical accuracy. I am looking forward to this meeting, which is devoted to theatrical and other interpretations of historical dress (finally). I will be checking in at the hotel on Wednesday noon. Please send me a direct response, before Tuesday afternoon, with your real name so I can look for you. Thanks. Joan P. McTeer, Minneapolis JPMcTeer@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 95 12:24:52 PST From: "Lynn Meyer" Subject: re: Renaissance/needlework Speaking of blackwork, does anyone have any references for blackwork as it was done in Spain? Many sources say Catherine of Aragon (Henry VIII's first queen) brought blackwork to England, and whether that's true or not, it WAS done in Spain (and Italy). My SCA persona is Spanish, and I would love to get something more detailed than that... like a pattern to copy! Thanks, Halima/Lynn lynn_meyer@intuit.com ------------------------------ Date: 26 May 1995 16:02:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Library - Vineland Research Station Subject: Re: needlework tools Hi Sandy: A great book for information on needlework tools is by Gay Ann Rogers. As usual, my copy is at home and I'm at work. I've just completed a c. 1810 lady's sewing box with tools of the period (or pretty close) and I've discovered that it's a good idea do some research into what is appropriate and then go digging for the items. Too many suppliers and antique dealers will tell you "Yes, it's from the period you want" (Hey, it's nineteenth century isn't it, isn't that close enough?) I've seen too many 1812 re- enactors proudly flaunting props that scream "Victoriana!" I guess. LACIS, 3163 Adeline St., Berkeley, CA 94703 tel: (510)843-7178 has some neat things like ivory lucets, thimbles and tape measures, amongst other things. I'll tell to check my binders this weekend. Speaking of LACIS, and of list problems, did anyone get my message about the LACIS batiste? They sell a very fine, transparent but evenly woven fabric for $20 a yard. To my eye, it's very similar to the fabric used in the dressy Empire style. I'm interested in knowing if the Amazon batiste is similar but lower in price. (Do I really want to spend the next year or so embroidering an evening dress?) Please excuse typos and other infelicities. I can't edit in this program. Sheridan Alder ------------------------------ From: MarieD0108@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 18:18:37 -0400 Subject: Re: needlwork/renaissance que... 'kay. Here goes. The book 'Blackwork Embroider' by Elisabeth Geddes and Moyra McNeill from Dover Publications is the book for you guys. It has the history of blackwork, instructions for doing it, more instructions for designing it, and portraits. Even better, this is a softcover book which retails for $4.95. Your local bookstore should be able to get this for you - I got mine through a Hallmark store. Marie ------------------------------ From: MarieD0108@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 18:18:41 -0400 Subject: Medieval Costume book Here it is for everyone. Medieval Costume, Armour and Weapons (1350 - 1450) By Eduard Wagner Published by Paul Hamlyn Ltd. London 1958 I can't tell you how many pages, since they only numbered the text pages. I can tell you it is about 9 1/2 x 13 1/2 inches, and about 1 1/4 inches thick, without covers. Good luck! Marie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 20:34:04 -0400 (EDT) From: John Sek Subject: War of 1812 enlisted men's uniform My wife sews for a local historical fort (Fort Erie) in re-creating uniforms and other clothings typical to those found during the War of 1812. As you can see with my mailing address below, her interested is mostly with the British and Canadian side of that war (although US involvement was present, that will come later.) Because of the difficulties in supplies available for both sides during that War and the times thereafter there is very little hard information on what was actually worn. There is also quite the discussion on what the women actually wore. Was is empire style clothing or something else such as American Revolutionary or pioneer? Regardless of this, her biggest problem for now is on the enlisted man's uniform. None of the pattern's known are considered correct. Past Pattern is currently working on one with a former Parks Canada employee (soon to be released?) Even when this pattern is finally available there probably will still be problems since there were so many different regiments and different tailors. If anyone, anywhere (Canada, USA, UK) knows of an "authentic" War of 1812 uniform please let us know. In particular, we are interested in the enlisted men's uniform but knowledge of the officer's uniform can be helpful still. Does anyone have knowledge of regimental orders detailing the tailoring procedure for the same? We have heard that it exists but finding one is the problem. We have seen a lot of reproduction uniforms but on examination always find moderen techniques have been used or the cut was completely incorrect for the period. Obviously, the uniform was influenced by the French Revoltion to Recency period, but still local styles and material shortages influenced the uniform construction. Even if you are unable to specifically help, my wife (Jane) would welcome any personal comments or local chats by e-mail, etc. on the topic and era. *********************************************************************** John Sek,C.E.T.,C.S.T. jsek@freenet.niagara.com 222 Emerick Avenue telephone: 1-905-871-7449 Fort Erie, ON, CANADA L2A 2W5 fax/modem: 1-905-871-0696 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 May 95 19:21:25 PDT From: aterry@teknowledge.com (Allan Terry) Subject: Regency clothes Here are some more references for Regency clothes, men's and women's: _Fashion for Men: An Illustrated History_, by Diana de Marly. Holmes & Meier, 1985. _The Male Image: Men's Fashion in England 1300-1970_, by Penelope Byrde. B. T. Batsford, 1979. _Nineteenth Century Fashion_, by Penelope Byrde. B. T. Batsford, 1992. _The Age of Napoleon: Costume from Revolution to Empire 1789-1815_, Metropolitan Museum of Art, 1989. _Revolution in Fashion 1715-1815_, Kyoto Costume Institute. Abbeville Press, 1989. The last three of these books contain information on and pictures of men's and women's clothes. I also have a German book in a fancy museum catalog format (hardback, full-page full-color photos with facing text) that has wonderful pictures of Regency women's clothes, as well as many 18th-century and Victorian dresses. In fact the dust jacket features three transparent muslin Regency gowns, on dress forms with no underwear, trailing down a mansionesque staircase. The title is: _Voila: Glanzstucke historischer Moden 1750-1960_, by Wilhelm Hornbostel, Prestel-Verlag, 1991. The identification information is fairly intelligible to English readers. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 May 1995 19:56:09 +0800 From: bill@iinet.com.au (Bill and Gaynor McConnell) Subject: Brave Heart Anyone know what Scottish women of 1280-1310 wore. I have found heaps on English on this period but not Scottish. We are attending a Brave Heart premiere and I hoped to go Scottish not English. Gaynor ------------------------------ From: Jacobite@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 May 1995 10:36:26 -0400 Subject: Re: 500 - 1500 ? Marie, Your book sounds very interesting. This historical time period happens to be my favorite, could please let me know the name, author, and publisher of the book? Also the date published may help in my search. I have been searching for this type of book for a while. Regards Petal jacobite@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 May 1995 11:37:40 -0500 (EST) From: dbrowne The best book aviable is by Jacquline Herald it is "THE" source for Italian costume. Any book showing the works of the great Italian Masters will be just full of georgious portriats. I personally love the works of Crevillie (sp) (the clothing is wonderful, even if the people are very stylised). You have lumped a whole 150 year period much less very distinct regions together. But your basic discription of an Italian gown seems acurate. If you want to see people in garments of the time (I don't care about a review of the movie) check out the 1960's version of Romeo and Juilette, produced by Franco Zifferlie (sp) His designer based al the work on paintings and excesent pieces, truly magnifisent. God, I can't spell today . . . Hope this helps Kathy B Katrinn ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 May 1995 11:47:49 -0500 (EST) From: dbrowne Subject: Re: needlwork/renaissance question the type of stiching that you are looking for is Blackwork or Holbien Embroidary. There is also an Itlian form of counted work called Asissie (SP) work. Both of these are counted (using the fabric threads as a methiod to keep your embroidary neat ordarly pattern, and both use cross-stich as well as other stiches. I have read, but don't have handi that cross stitch became popular in the late 18th or early 19th century. (Look for books by Erica Wilson or Mary Gostlow) their the experts. The stich "cross-stich" has certainly been around at least as long as the mid-1500's. But the needle work known as eather "cross-stich" or "counted Cross-stich" are both fairly modern. Hope this helps Kathy B Katrinn ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 May 1995 13:25:52 -0500 From: rebecca mioak chung Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 311, 5/24/95 How well body measurements for 18c British women be reconstructed from the garments they wore? Has anyone worked on this? If not, I want to, and here's a list of things I feel I have to keep in mind (thanks to this list): 1) Most clothing that survives from this period is elite dress. 2) Clothing that survives may represent only smaller women, because that of larger women could have been resewn. 3) The bodies inside this clothing ate differently (prone to vitamin deficiency) and moved differently (dance, not aerobics). 4) These bodies were corsetted, not face-lifted or liposuctioned. So corsets will tell me what elite women made themselves into, but may not indicated what these women looked like if they had not been reconstructed by corsets and braces. Also, I'm wondering if *19C photographs of women will give me a better idea of 18c women's bodies. The photographs will sho more of a range of women, and may help me extrapolate limits for height, proportion, and weight. As always, thanks in advance for advice and brainstorming. Best, Rebecca Chung rmc2@quads.uchicago.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 May 95 17:19:12 PDT From: aterry@teknowledge.com (Allan Terry) Subject: 18th-century measurements >How well body measurements for 18c British women be reconstructed from the >garments they wore? A pattern accurately copied from an original garment gives a good idea of the original wearer's size, allowing for garment ease and for the room taken up by the garments that would have been worn underneath. >2) Clothing that survives may represent only smaller women. Not necessarily. First, garments were often remade for the original wearers, not just for other people who may (or may not) have been distinctly different in size. Second, you can easily expand a garment a size or two by letting out seams, adding gussets, letting down the hem or adding a border, etc. Third, a garment was not neccesarily remade into another garment of the same type. It could be unpicked and the material used for another, smaller type of garment or a child's dress. To automatically assume that a garment survived because it couldn't be remade is, in my opinion, false. As recently as the 1940s, people remade garments often and had many ingenious tricks for doing it. We're not nearly as used to thinking that way. >3) The bodies inside this clothing ate differently (prone to vitamin >deficiency) and moved differently (dance, not aerobics). Judging from histories of food and period cookbooks, I'd say the elite were quite adequately fed, althouygh their diets were high-calorie and high-fat by our standards. Medical care and genetics also affect size. I'm 4' 9 1/2" tall and of proportionate weight. I've enjoyed modern medical care and a modern diet, get plenty of exercise, and have always had excellent health. I just have lots of short relatives. >4) These bodies were corsetted, not face-lifted or liposuctioned. So corsets >will tell me what elite women made themselves into, but may not indicated >what these women looked like if they had not been reconstructed by corsets >and braces. >Also, I'm wondering if *19C photographs of women will give me a better idea >of 18c women's bodies. The photographs will sho more of a range of women, and >may help me extrapolate limits for height, proportion, and weight. Since corsets were worn before puberty in a way that affected growth, an 18th-century woman with no clothes on would not look the same as a modern woman of the same body type with no clothes on. And neither would look like a 19th-century woman with no clothes on, since 19th-century corsets also shaped the body but in a different way. Also, Victorian diets, exercise habits, and medical care were not identical to those of the 18th century. I personally would not use 19th-century data to indicate anything for the 18th century. I don't know of any studies on body size that have been made in the context of costuming. But I would expect such studies have been done in the context of period medical care and health. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ From: Ladyspnr@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 15:11:13 -0400 Subject: Colonial Lady's Day Dress Hi everyone! Well, I am now entering back into the sewing aspect of re-enacting and I am hoping for some help. I have found several patterns for lady's dresses (polonaise or caradco jacket with skirt). I don't want to make an evening gown or anything, but I'd like a dressier dress than my "everyday" working class outfit. I am concentrating mainly on the era between 1750 and 1790, and want to create a nice "day" dress for festivals and events when I drag out my hammered dulcimer to sit and play for a while. (as a change to cooking over a campfire - thought it might be fun to be gentry for a change). Any suggestions on the type of materials that would be appropriate for this type of outfit. Silk is far too expensive and cleaning would be a hassle. Satins would be too fancy and wools too warm for summer. Would cotton be appropriate? If so, what types of prints (if any)? I know I need to make the "undergarments" first (corset, petticoats, hoop forms, etc.) so I have some time to save up for it, but I want it to be correct and still look good. Also, would a colonial lady wear a wig during the day or just a mop cap, or both? Thanks. Karri ------------------------------ End of Volume 314 -----------------------