From: Gretchen Miller Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 13:43:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 316, 6/2/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 316, June 2, 1995 ------------------------------ Topics: HMSO Books Thanks: Renaissance needlework Question and answer: Thai silks and cotton muslins Costumes in "Queen Margot" History of covering the hair ISO: Opinions about "Fashioning the Bourgeoisie" Question: Corset tightness under the arms, circa 1880 Wool for medieval recreation Definition of FIT Hat construction questions ISO: Subscription info to Costume, and silk brocades Colonial woman's day dress ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 31 May 95 00:44:37 EDT From: deirdre@cybernetics.net (Charlene S- Noto) Subject: Re: Book search (14th cent?)[long] At 12:56 PM 5/30/95 -0700, Gwen Carnegi wrote: >I'm on a search for a copy of a book from the V&A (published by Her >Majesty's Stationary?) on pouchs, belts and sword hangers from 13th to >15th century. It had some of the best documention I've seen yet. Gwen, The note below was posted on the Rialto (reg.org.sca) a while back. I think this is what you are looking for. -Charlene ------ >From: donna@kwantlen.bc.CA (Donna Hrynkiw) >Newsgroups: rec.org.sca >Subject: BOOKS: Medieval Finds From Excavations in London >Date: 26 Jan 1995 20:37:53 -0500 Hi everyone, it's Elizabeth Braidwood, I just gotta tell you about my new books, I am *so* pleased with them. The Museum of London's _Medieval_Finds_From_Excavations_in_London_ series -- has, I think, been mentioned on the Rialto before. But I seem to remember someone saying they were going out of print. Not so!, I'm happy to report. These are pricey books, but well worth the money if you are interested in primary sources. They are scholarly, but very readable. Full of archaeological drawings, a number of B&W photos, and a handful of colour photos. Eminently useful to the SCA craftsman. I bought mine from a variety of sources, two from bookstores in California and the other two directly from HMSO (Her Majesty's Stationary Office) in England. If I had to do it again, I'd buy them all from HMSO -- at the bookstores I paid TWICE what they're marked (even after converting pounds to dollars). HMSO Publications Centre PO Box 276, London, SW8 5DT There is a US distributor for HMSO, but I was very dis-satisfied with their response to my several queries (I have the address if you *really* want it). It only took a month for the books to arrive via surface mail, you can pay more to get them quicker. There are, to date, four volumes, and I haven't heard of any others being planned. #1: Knives and Scabbards by J. Cowgill, M. de Neergaard, and N. Griffiths ISBN 0-11-290440-8, 1987, #10.95 Table of Contents ----------------- Dating Manufacturing Techniques The Knives, Shears, Scissors and Folding Knives Blades Forging Decoration Marks Knife Handles Documentary Evidence Scabbards The decoration of Medieval Scabbards A Note on the Heraldic Decoration of the Scabbards The Ordinary Discussion Rolls of Arms Consulted The Use of Knives, Shears, Scissors, and Scabbards Appendix: Metallographic examination of the Medieval Knives and Scabbards #2: Shoes and Pattens by Francis Grew and Margrethe de Neergaard ISBN 0-11-290443-2, 1988, #13.95 Table of Contents ----------------- Shoes from London Sites, 1100-1450 Shoemaking and Cobbling Pattens Sizes and Wear Patterns: Social Inferences Shoes in Art and Literature Glossary #3: Dress Accessories (c. 1150 - 1450) by Geoff Egan and Frances Pritchard ISBN 0-11-290444-0, 1991, #39.95 Table of Contents ----------------- Alloy Nomenclature The Metal Dress Accessories - Some Observations Girdles Buckles Strap-ends Mounts Combinations of Diverse Strap Fittings and Possible Ensuite Items Brooches Buttons Lace Chapes Hair Accessories Pins Beads Chains Pendants Finger Rings Bells Purses Cased Mirrors Combs Cosmetic Sets Needlecases Metallurgical Analysis of the Dress Accessories #4: Textiles and Clothing - c.1150-c.1450 by Elisabeth Crowfoot, Frances Pritchard, and Kay Staniland ISBN 0-11-290445-9, 1992, #29.95 Table of Contents ----------------- Techniques Used in Textile Production wool -- hair -- linen -- silk -- dyes -- looms Wool Textiles state of preservation -- the weaves of the cloths -- three-shed twills -- four-shed twills -- six-shed twills -- tabby weaves -- tabby weaves with weft-faced bands -- selected catalogue I -- tapestry -- selected catalogue II -- knitting -- felt Goathair Textiles processing goathair -- use of goathair textiles Linen Textiles silk in Roman Britain and Anglo-Saxon England -- sources of supply in the 12th to 14th centuries -- tabby-woven cloths -- tabby-woven cloths with self-pattered bands -- selected catalogue III -- tabby-woven cloth with bands in 1.3 twill -- selected catalogue IV -- weft-pattered tabby -- selected catalogue V -- 3.1 twill damask -- selected catalogue VI -- 1.2 weft-faced compound twills -- selected catalogue VII -- 1.3 weft-faced compound twill -- selected catalogue VIII -- lampas weaves -- selected catalogue IX -- satin -- selected catalogue X -- satin damask -- selected catalogue XI Mixed Cloths half-silk velvets -- linen and wool union cloths Narrow Wares tablet-woven braids -- selected catalogue XII -- fingerloop braids -- plaited braids -- tabby-woven braids -- garters -- selected catalogue XIII -- hairnets -- selected catalogue XIV Sewing Techniques and Tailoring sewing threads -- sewing techniques -- bindings and facings -- fastening methods -- decorative features -- construction -- dagges Appendix: the Dyes method of extraction and identification -- results I sincerely hope I've whetted some appetites... Elizabeth Mistress Elizabeth Braidwood donna@kwantlen.bc.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 09:29:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Robin Netherton Subject: Re: Books, cloth, and supplies On Tue, 30 May 1995, Fran Grimble wrote: > Someone asked about a book, part of a series, on medieval pouches, etc. > This may be _Dress Accessories c. 1150-c. 1450_, by Geoff Egan and Frances > Pritchard. The series is Medieval Finds from Excavations in London and is > published by Her Majesty's Stationery Office (HMSO) in London. Other books in > the series, with different authors, are _Shoes and Pattens_, _Textiles and > Clothing_, and _Knives and Scabbards_. Your best bet for getting these is > to special order through a bookstore that will order from England > (university bookstores are most willing to deal with foreign orders). HMSO has several offices in the states. Phone for one in the Washington/Baltimore area is 301/459-7666. I presume it's still in operation, thought I haven't called in the last year or two. Or write straight to England: HMSO Publications Centre P.O. Box 276 London, SW8 5DT ENGLAND Telephone orders: overseas country code plus 071-873-9090 It's really very easy to order from overseas; use a charge card and the money changes automatically. (You might consider waiting for the exchange rate to improve!) ISBN numbers for the London excavations books: Shoes and Pattens: ISBN 0 11 290443 2 Knives and Scabbards: ISBN 0 11 290440 8 Textiles and Clothing: ISBN 0 11 290445 9 Dress Accessories: ISBN 0 11 290444 0 ------------------------------ From: P_SHERYL@KCPL.LIB.MO.US Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 8:57:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Renaissance needlework I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who answered my question about needle-work & cross-stitch on English Renaissance costume. I even looked up some of the books that were mentioned - some had very instructive illustrations! :) I think that I've decided to try some blackwork on my sleeves to start with. Thanks again! Sheryl Nance ------------------------------ From: VICKI@lib.uttyl.edu Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 10:17:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Thai silks and cotton muslins Dear Fran, Where do you get your good quality Thai silks--the colored solids, stripes, and plaids? Any chance they do swatches and mail orders? All that I've seen here in Texas have been for brides, and all of the colors that I've seen mail order have been from the company Thai Silks. Any additional leads would be greatly appreciated. Also, where do you get your printed and solid cotton muslins suitable for piecing into border prints? I'm thinking of reproducing one of those late 1850's founced muslin dresses, if possible with a paisley design border. Again, if the source swatches and mail orders, great. Even in Dallas, 90 miles to the west of me, the fabric sources are rather poor for anything approaching historic. Not to mention, the good stuff that I do find is *really* expensive (often $36 a yard or higher). Thanks for your expert assistance, Vicki Betts vicki@lib.uttyl.edu ------------------------------ From: "Cindy Abel" Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 10:39:05 CDT Subject: 16th century costumes in film "Queen Margot" Has anyone else on the list seen the movie "Queen Margot" I admired the costumes in the film, but they did not appear altogether accurate--sort of 16th century with a Gothic twist--Margot's white gown in the final scences comes to mind here. Also the cut of the men's shirts didn't look accurate and the court costumes especially seemed to veer closer to the very late 16th century to the very early 17th. Margot's wedding dress sported a spade shaped "plate" collar rather than a ruff of some type. I noticed this since I am a very amateur student of 16th century costume. Cindy Abel Health Sciences Library Creighton University 2500 California Plaza Omaha NE 68178-0400 Phone: 402-280-5144 ------------------------------ From: jennyb@pdd.3com.com Date: Wed, 31 May 95 16:39:27 BST Subject: History of covering the hair > > >Dear Eliz, could you spell out some of the 'various reasons' why women in > >so many countries have covered their hair? As far as I know, it is usually > >connected with the notions of submission and sexual modesty. > Gale Owen Crocker wrote a book called something like "dress in Anglo-Saxon England" in which she speculates that loose hair on a woman was a sign of immodesty. It is thought that this is connected with the teachings of St Paul and the early medieval Christian church, which seems to have required women to keep themselves well covered up (hair included) to protect the world from the perils of unbridled lust that would ensue if feminine locks were put on general display! In support of this theory Gale Owen Crocker shows early medieval manuscripts with depictions of immoral women with uncovered hair and respectable women covered up. The pagan Norse women who moved out of Scandinavia to the British isles seem not to have had this tradition of hair covering, but knotted their hair into buns & pony tails. As they spread into christian lands & as Christianity spread into Scandinavia, hair coverings of various sorts start to appear with the grave goods, and bonnets are found in Scandinavian settlements in the British isles, but not in teh scandinavian homelands, or in Anglo-Saxon areas. The bonnets do not cover up as much as the Saxon wimples, perhaps they were a half way attempt of Nordic women to conform to the local customs without going all the way? Back in Scandinavia graves which look pagan (from the nature of the grave goods) have women with hair coverings buried in them, The cotherings are just draped cloth & look more ornamental than practical, so either it wasn't a religeous thing in the first place, or the fashion spread across religeous boundaries. (I get the feeling that with early medieval costume some things will always stay as guesswork) Jennifer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 09:24:28 -0700 From: Alexandra.Ohlson@Eng.Sun.COM (Alexandra Rankin Ohlson) To: h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Book Review? Fashioning the Bourgeoisie I came across the above book (Fashioning the Bourgeoisie) in a used bookstore yesterday and it looked really interesting, but they wanted $30 so I thought I'd check here for any reviews. It was about how fashion influenced the making of the Bourgeoisie during the 19th century due to French ready-made which allowed the middle-class to wear clothes that looked like those of the aristocracy. Or at least that's what I gathered from a quick look. Anyone ever read it? alexandra ------------------------------ Date: 31 May 95 12:35:02 EDT From: Dee Wilson <100545.3105@compuserve.com> Subject: Under the arms of 1880 women Can you help me in my research into social history ? I have several comments made around 1880/1890 which indicate that stays need not be as high and as tight UNDER THE ARM as they used to be. Given that corsets at this time were pretty tight and rigid I guess they were talking about a degree of tightness we would find extreme today. Can you help me by providing an insight into why corsets before this period were "high and tight under the arm". Was it to improve carriage/ deportment, or was it due to the shape of the dresses? Or perhaps it was all part of the "frail lady" idea by restricting movement ? Frankly, given the discomfort a modern bra can cause I think it must have been very uncomfortable. These same writers say that a girl's corset should not be high under the arm either. They do have some regard for the growing girl - I have a comment from 1881 where they say that 10 year old girls should not wear wasp waisted corsets. Rather they should wear stays which provide proper support and shaping. (As if at 10 you need support and shaping!) BTW - we still have a similar problem today, my sister in law is worrying at what age her 13 year old may wear a Wonderbra ! Anyway, do let me know if you can help with the under the arms question. Dee 100545.3105@compuserve.com ------------------------------ From: Edward Wright Date: Wed, 31 May 95 10:42:09 TZ Subject: RE: Thai silks and cotton muslins | Where do you get your good quality Thai silks--the colored solids, stripes, | and plaids? Any chance they do swatches and mail orders? Contact Oriental Silks in Los Angeles. They do mail orders, phone orders, and swatching -- $1.00 for most fabric types, with up to 50 swatches per type. They import direct from China, Japan, Thailand, and other places (even some linen from Scotland, Ireland, and Belgium). Great selection, including some things like silk corduroy that I haven't seen anywhere else, and good prices, too. (Most silks are 20-30% less than the prices I find elsewhere.) | Even in Dallas, 90 miles to the west of me, the fabric sources are rather | poor for anything approaching historic. Not to mention, the good stuff that | I do find is *really* expensive (often $36 a yard or higher). Sounds like you've been going to Kay's Fabrics. Try some of the outlets in the area centered around Perth, off Harry Hines (though you won't find much in the way of silk). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 11:02:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Gwen Carnegi Subject: Re: book search I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who replied to my book search post. I got my order in today:) Gwyn Carnegie "Unexpected changes in travel plans are dancing lessons from God". ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 13:05:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Regarding woolens for medieval reproductions I am very interested in researching the time period 1327-1415, approximately the time from the ascension of Edward III until Henry IV, most specifically England, but some French, Flanders, and Italy. I have been reading several books on the English Wool Trade in the Middle Ages and would like some possible advice. Originally, from as far back as Charlemagne's time, the English have been know for their fine woolens. The native sheep of England had been a variety by county, of both long-haired sheep and short-haired sheep. The short-haired sheep produce the shorter length fine wool that was made into woolens in Flanders and England and sold as far abroad as the southern mediterranean region since the crusades. The long-haired wool, known as worsted, was much coarser and was general used for the poorer-quality wools like russet, and for home-spun. Worsteds were exported, but in very small quantity and without much demand. Sometime in the fourteenth century, but more progressively from the sixteenth century onwards those who owned sheep wanted both good mutton and good profit for the wool (doubtless a constant concern, but the greater mercantile opportunities from the hundred years war and the black death accelerated this business attitude). Many of the native short-haired sheep were replaced, in both the hills, mountains, and low pastures throughout England, Scotland, and Wales. The long-haired sheep just seemed to adapt better, and breed better than the short-haired sheep, and they had the advantage of being bigger of mutton properties. (As a side note, the English never managed to get the best of both worlds, the bigger sheep had tougher and fattier mutton that never tasted as good, and of course the wool was very course.) Soon almost all short-haired sheep had disappeared with the affect that high-quality woolens were mainly replaced by coarse worsteds. There were complaints of the quality of woolens, that were not as fine as they had been from the late fourteenth century onward. By the sixteenth century England exported almost entirely worsteds through World War II, not a bad thing, the market expanded for worsteds and a hefty profit was continually made. Efforts to bring in Spanish short-haired sheep, Merinos, and breed them with the now dominant long-haired sheep (this was in the seventeenth century, I think, but all the books and articles are at home). Anyway, it didn't work, all offspring had the worst of both breeds and the wool was a disaster, but as worsteds now sold well there was never a revolution to weave the fine woolens of yesteryear. So what I want to know is: All the wool I find in the stores are coarse worsteds, where can I find fine, smooth high-quality woolens? I would order from overseas and could order in quantity. How can I tell woolens from worsted, and how can I approximate the fineness of it. I want (hah) Cloth of Ypres, and Cloth of Ghent, they used to make batiste out of wool in the fifteenth century. If there is no english mill making woolens of this quality, perhaps italy or spain? I only know wool from what I have read, I know the names of many breeds of sheep but have very little practical experience with the fabric. Other than buying what can be gotten in stores, and the combination wool/silk from Thai silk I have no leads. Will follow up on any advice and others research. Thank you for your time. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 11:13:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Gwen Carnegi Subject: Re: Gloves FIT is short for Fashion Institute of Technology. They are a exceptional trade school located in NYC with programs in Fashion design, Textile design....etc. If anyone live near FIT and has the means to take classes (last time I checked into it tution was $450.00 a course), I would whole-heartedly recommend it! FIT is where people already in the trade go to take extra classes to improve their marketability. Their computer assisted design program could be the best in U.S. Gwyn Carnegie "Unexpected changes in travel plans are dancing lessons from God". On Tue, 30 May 1995 KristieGr@aol.com wrote: > Thanks for the information. But, what is FIT in NY??? > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 95 11:39:24 PST From: Loren_Dearborn@casmail.calacademy.org (Loren Dearborn) Subject: Hats Hello all, I had two, unrelated hat questions I thought this group might be able to answer. I've seen many paintings from the Empire period of men wearing bicorns and was trying to figure out what determined whether they wore them side to side or nose to back. Is this some sort of rank differentiation or personal preference? Or something else? I was reading a book a while back, I think it was Wylder's Hand, set in the mid 1800s that noted that one of the female characters was a "wideawake". I know there is a hat called a "wideawake", but don't know what the term might mean for a person, nor why the hat is called that. Anyone know? Cheers, Loren Dearborn ldearborn@calacademy.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 13:31:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: The magazine Costume, brocades While I am at it, Hi! I am new here. My name is Teresa Shannon, I live in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, U.S.A. I do not belong to any recreation group or society and do not necessarily plan to as I don't have time or money. I do, however, research, mainly the English medieval period 1327-1415 with some blurring of both time starts and ends. For the purposes of this group I am keenly interested in costuming of that period with the mirror courts in France, Flanders, Italy of secondary interest. I have done research on and off, mainly in sumptuary legislation for 7 or 8 years now, have used some primary manuscript sources from the Newberry Library, Chicago, but mainly just the tertiary sources of history of costume books and manuscript and painting books. My lack of latin is a major drawback as all will and testaments and bequests of that time were done in Latin. Anyway, I have had recourse to get copies from old _Costume_ articles for medieval corsets, chausses, who wore what at royal weddings, etc. As my college library (I am a secretary at UW-Milw.) does not subscribe to this immanently useful magazine, I am requesting advice on how one may subscribe. I believe it is a british periodical? But am not sure. Please send information on this subject if you know it, conversely, if anyone wants to become a member of the Early English Text Society, just ask. I also used to work for Thai Silks/Exotic Silks in California and have advice, names, numbers, wholesale/retail price lists if you are interested. Nice stuff, great prices if you order wholesale. Also, I am interested in brocades that are possibly representative of medieval patterns. I already have an expensive relationship with La Lame, the ecclesiastical brocade store (and recommend it to everyone) in New York, but their brocades are rayon, (they have real metal silver/gold thread if you want to pay for it - I have, very nice, very pricey) and I am looking for silk, linen (hah), and wool brocades as rayon and cotton weren't big in the fourteenth century :-). Overseas and very pricey is fine, at this point why not? I would, however, like to deal with someone who knows what is going on. I might be able to mutter through with french or spanish languages if I had to, although English is preferred. Diappered patterns, real silk or silver/gold threads big bonus. If you don't know anyone personally, but could refer me to sources that could help me research these patterns and fabric, that too, would be a big help. I have no problem sharing what I have learned, how about that fantastic pearl-fishing industry in Wales?, no problems, but be warned, I have been narrow in focus and mostly the legal side of it in sumptuary legislation. Thank you all for this newsgroup and your time and advice in advance. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 15:22:21 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb Subject: RE: Colonial Lady's Day Dress >I know I need to make the "undergarments" first (corset, petticoats, hoop >forms, etc.) so I have some time to save up for it, but I want it to be >correct and still look good. Unless somebody else out there has other info (I'd be interested to hear it): My understanding is that in the 18C petticoats does NOT mean "white slip" like it does today. The word petticoat meant what we call "skirt" today. So, the several layers of petticoats which give the shape merely means that you have several colored/patterned/etc outer skirts on at the same time. One happens to be on the top layer. For your fancy gown, that top layer would be the petticoat which matches the caraco or polonaise part of the "gown". Both together (bodice/jacket part and skirt part) make up what is called the "gown". So, just make a bunch of every day skirts while you are planning out your fancy gown. Then, wear them under the gown to provide the fullness. Plus, of course, any pocket hoops, full hoops, or bum-roll you choose. <============================================================> < Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov Costumer, RevWar re-enactor ------------------------------ End of Volume 316 -----------------------