From: Gretchen Miller Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 12:54:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 321, 6/8/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 321, June 8, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: "Dangerous Liasons" costumes Anyone seen "Montcon Museum" patterns? Wool and woolens for historical costuming Leather museum in London QE I's undergarments Indelicate period costuming terms Twill linen and silk velvet Question and answer: Paste Buckle shoes Books and articles of interest ISO: Costumes on CD-ROM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 3 Jun 95 18:52:58 PDT From: aterry@teknowledge.com (Allan Terry) Subject: Miscellaneous About the _Dangerous Liasons_ costumes--the novel was published in the early 1780s. (I have read it and the film is a very good adaptation.) I saw the film when it first came out. Although I liked the costumes and they seemed accurate I forget exactly what decade they were for--I think the 1750s. If you want to reproduce them I'd suggest getting patterns from Janet Arnold's and Norah Waugh's books, rather than working from a memory of the film. About fabrics--is Oriental Silk's velvet a chiffon velvet, as used in the 1920s and 1930s, or the heavier type used in earlier periods? My problem with finding silks (aside from satins and Thai silks, which I can get easily but which don't serve all purposes) is that most are modern blouse weight, which is too light for many historical dresses. I suspect it's unnecessary to reproduce Regency muslin. The usage of the term muslin has changed but comparable sheer cottons are still produced. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jun 95 20:24:20 PDT From: aterry@teknowledge.com (Allan Terry) Subject: 1890s patterns The "New Books and Articles" section of the latest issue of _Costume_ mentions a series of patterns of 1890s clothes designed for the Moncton Museum in New Brunswick and available "nationwide." Has anyone seen these patterns? If so, what are they like and where can you buy them? Thanks for any information. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ From: jennyb@pdd.3com.com Date: Mon, 5 Jun 95 09:52:57 BST Subject: Regarding woolens for medieval reproductions >Sometime in the fourteenth century, but more progressively from the >sixteenth century onwards those who owned sheep wanted both good mutton >and good profit for the wool ...... > Many of the native >short-haired sheep were replaced, in both the hills, mountains, and low >pastures throughout England, Scotland, and Wales. The long-haired sheep >just seemed to adapt better, and breed better than the short-haired >sheep, and they had the advantage of being bigger of mutton properties. ..... > Soon almost >all short-haired sheep had disappeared with the affect that high-quality >woolens were mainly replaced by coarse worsteds. There doesn't seem to be a real hard & fast rule as to which sheep thrive best in the British isles, I think its because our climate is quite variable from Cornwall & the channel islands where tropical plants will thrive to the Orkneys & Shetlands where some islands won't even grow a decent pine tree. This is probably one factor that has allowed primitive sheep short fine wooled sheep to survive in areas where the larger long wooled breeds couldn't cope, Soay sheep are thought to resemble those tended by shjepherds in the bronze age & can still be found on the island they take their name from. The big long wooled breeds couldn't scratch a living from the meagre fodder that keeps the tiny soays going. Similarly fine wooled Shetlands still thrive on their islands where bigger sheep don't do well. Then theres the fine wooled sheep of the Romney marshes, big, fine wooled & kept there because they resist the foot rot that takes out most other breeds in that area. Certainly today the national flock of the British isles is dominated by the Scottish blackface which has long coarse wool, used for carpets & even matress stuffing, but there are plenty of fine wooled suffolks around & a plethora of local breeds each suited to their own location. (one of my favourite adaptations is the Herdwick which has a strong hefting instinct: it stays close to its birth place throughout its life. If you've ever been to its native lake district, got lost in the fog & nearly fallen over a cliff you can see how sticking to one patch of ground'that you know well could be a real survival trait!) Anyway the point of this rambling about sheep breeds is that there are fine wools aplenty in Britain, they are used to make both fine woolen & worsted cloths (woolen is bouncy yarn with spiralling fibres that trap air, worsted is smoother combed yarn with fibres aligned to the direction of spinning giving a more lustrous finish). The best place to buy fine woolens & worsteds is in a tailors, I mean a proper tailors of the variety who makes suits, not the sort that just sells readymades. Be warned worsted does not come cheap & even fine woolen suiting cloth is pretty expensive. > How can I tell woolens >from worsted, and how can I approximate the fineness of it. I want >(hah) >Cloth of Ypres, and Cloth of Ghent, they used to make batiste out of >wool in the fifteenth century. If there is no english mill making >woolens of this quality, perhaps italy or spain? As to how to tell the fine woolens from the worsteds, the worsteds are the ones that you don't believe are made of wool! They seem too lustrous, too fine, and drape too beautifully to possibly be made of the stame stuff as wooly jumpers. Well, perhaps that wasn't as helpful a description as it could have been, but really if you can find a good tailors & get him to show you some pure worsted suiting lengths you'll see what I mean, good worsted spun yarn makes a totally different fabric from woolen spun yarn. & I'm sure other people have done a better job than me of trying to describe the stuff. If you are desperate for fine wool & cannot get it where you are I could try to find you a shop that will take credit card orders for export. I used to know some good suppliers up in Manchester, but do go try a good tailors first & see if they can offer advice. Whilst they prefer to sell you cloth in the form of suits they are usually very helpful people & willing to sell a suiting length if you explain what its for, or failing that can put you in touch with their suppliers. If you really can't find one email me & I'll try to get you connected with someone who can sell you cloth, but if you have to buy mail order insist on some swatches of fabric so you can see what you're getting. A sample could save you a very expensive mistake, so DO get a swatch even if you have to pay extra for it (they're normally free, but might not be if you're shopping at a distance) . Jennifer ------------------------------ From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 05 Jun 95 11:11:00 BST Subject: Diverse Information I have found Teresa's messages fascinating, not being a spinner or weaver. I agree with Jennifer, a good man's tailor of the Saville Row type, might be able to help you. Don't underestimate the cost, I know someone a couple of years ago who had a 1590's outfit made out of top quality wool, at over 35 UK pounds a yard. Have you tried the Rare Breeds Trust in the UK? They encourage the breeding of rare breeds of domestic animals, and try to breed back to older breeds - so they may have access to limited supplies of unusual types of wool. I do not have their address, but will try to see what I can find out. Gregory was asking about Leather - I haven't heard of the Leather Museum in London and would love details. As far as the York digs are concerned, the Yorkshire Museum (_not_ the York Castle Museum) is where all the finds are kept - I recently purchased a superb book on the medieval pottery finds published by them. I have not yet got to the Yorkshire Museum (next trip north!) but the address is Yorkshire Museum, Museum Gardens, York. Elizabeth's clothing. - there was a little piece in the paper related more to the architectural conservancy work at Westminster Abbey. Apparently there was a full set of clothing given to the Abbey which was identified as Elizabeth's, but by the 18th century the outer garments were in a mess and were replaced and it was only recently they investigated and they reckon the underwear is original. Apparently the stiffener in the corset is grass (reeds?) and the waist measurement is 18 inches (whether they made allowance for the fact you do not have to close a corset at the back I don't know). I've just noticed they claim to have drawers - I may have to rethink underwear! - blast!! They will be owned by Westminster Abbey, and knowing English churches an 'exhibition' probably means just a glass case with a handwritten note. On the comments on 'Dangerous Liaison', yes the costumes are beautiful, but they chose the wrong period, because they didn't like the heavier costumes and wigs of the period the novel is set in (1780's, 90s) Secondly, why put such effort into the costumes and cast actors who don't move properly in them! John Malkovich walks like a cowboy, and at one point Michelle Pfeiffer stomps - in panniers!!! I know she is expressing anger but there are better ways of showing it when wearing panniers - it just looked silly. Glenn Close however moved very well - you could believe she had been brought up from childhood dancing the period dances. I saw the original production in London, with Alan Rickman as Vicomte de Valmont - now there's a man who knows how to move in costume! The production was lovely too, though not naturalistic, all soft golds as though the sun was beating down outside, like long sultry afternoons with little to do..... Caroline Memories of wicked luxury ------------------------------ From: ehp648c@crusher.dukepower.com Subject: Re: Historical terms (Was: Colonial Lady's Day Dress) Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 08:02:54 -0400 (EDT) > > >Curiosity hath got the better of me... > > > >I'm now wondering what the *correct* historical term would be for what we'd > >now call a "bum-roll"; surely, our ancestors would not have used so > >_indelicate_ a term? Don't bet on it; one of the Elizabethans' favorite colors was "goose-turd green". Similarly, during Marie-Antoinette's time, there was a fashionable brown called (English translation) "Dauphin-poop". Mm. The other one I remember is "Isabella brown", so called for a Spanish queen who vowed not to change her linen until a siege was lifted. It wasn't. She didn't. Scatology through the ages... Betsy Perry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 08:38:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: twill linen and silk velvet > My personal fantasies (besides cheap batiste) is twill linen and silk velvet. > I'm sure I'll go into cardiac arrest at the price if I ever locate any, but > in the meantime I can dream, can't I? I know Colonial Williamsburg has silk > decorating fabrics. Can anybody suggest some sources? > > Sheridan > Alder (sorry, no editing, please excuse typos) > Dear colleague: I would second twill linen, as well as a good English wool broadcloth, silk velvet is available at Thai silks. The background that the threads go into is rayon, but the actual (use of word I am unsure is appropriate) nap? is 100% silk, many lovely colors, not bad price if you order wholesale (15 yards or more) otherwise it is 18-20.00/yard. Perhaps the Los Angeles store Oriental Silks that Edward is so kind to suggest will also have something similar. Thai silks also has the most wonderful silk broadcloth, good silk/linen 45/55%, but in only a few colors, and a fairly good selection of silk/wool's. I am sure if we could only get some suggestions from Europe, they might offer these wonderful luxury fabrics more readily. Teresa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 08:42:20 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Re[2]: twill linen and silk velvet > > I know that G Street Fabrics in Rockville, MD carries both silk velvet and silk > satin (the latter is to die for at about $70/yd!). If you ever want to > fantasize for real, come d own (up?) and feel the stuff. Don't know the price > on the silk velvet but could find out just for grins.;) > > Kathleen > kathleen@anstec.com > Thai silks velvet may be inferior to this stuff, but I doubt their silk/satin is. Thai silk imports peau de soie skin of silk, a very impressive stiff 100% silk satin in a variety of colors for under $20.00/yard. You could make corsets out of this stuff, very strong, and what a sheen! Teresa> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 22:21:02 +0800 From: writan@iinet.com.au (Writan Consulting) Subject: Re: Historical terms (Was: Colonial Lady's Day Dress) >Don't bet on it; one of the Elizabethans' favorite colors was >"goose-turd green". I have a pair of suede shoes my husband insists on describing as 'dead spaniard' - a popular color after the Spanish Armada, from the great number of corpses washed up on the Cornish coast. /anne... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 10:28:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Staff - Michigan Health Promotion Clearinghouse Subject: Paste Buckle shoes? Help. What are paste buckle shoes? As mentioned in Cry to Heaven, about the castrati opera singers in 1720-1750 Italy? Thanks for any light you can shed on these shoes. They seem to be mentioned a lot, & I can't get a visual image. Joy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 09:47:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: The magazine Costume, bro... > I am still looking for the card for the brocade place. I believe it is > called "Fantastic Finery" in NY somewhere. (I will forward the address early > next week) The contact I will give you deals mostly with the SCA members, but > I know they will mail order. > > I would LOVE to come up with a period lame' and "cloth of gold" . Ler me > know how to get in touch with these companies. > Will get address and phone number, they are in Manhattan in the New York phone book, you could call NY City info and ask for La Lame. They send free swatches about 8 x 12 inches so you can see the pattern, but ask for their catalog first. They normally deal with churches. Can't wait to get more information on your store when you find it. I own all of the below books except the Margaret Soctt. Is this the Visual History book, or the Gothic Dress, by her? I have been told that the Gothic Dress book is great for pictures, but is not referenced enough to be really good. Am looking for it too, by the way. Have been doing studies on incised slabs and monumental brasses (English) from the period. Druitt's book on History of English Costume from Monumental Brasses, pub in 1906 is one I did a search for and found, the original in perfect condition from 1906 with hand-tinted pictures of the brasses! There was a reprinting of it that is generally available in addition to the HMSO book on Incised Slabs and Monumental Brasses. > 20,000 Years of Fashion -Francois Boucher > A History of Costume - Carl Kohler (his line drawings and terms are a bit off > but he has some great photos of extent garments) > A History of Costume 14th & 15 C. - Margaret Scott (out of print, I have not Not relating to the stone statuary, of which I know nothing about, but the funerial brasses are not accurate fashion dating indicators. People were generally depicted in out-of-date clothing with some liberties taken by the artist. (Don't artists always take liberties? Doesn't anyone try to stop them?) However, even if something is 10-20 years out of date, it still serves our purpose in an example barren field. I have never been to Britain. Sigh. Please let me know what you find. Whenever you go to museum stores ask to be put on their mailing list, or see if they have a book list. I am trying to get one for the V&A, which is difficult as they use many publishers at the same time. Here are some articles you may be interested in: "An account of the Expenses of Eleanor, sister of Edward III, on the occasion of her marriage to Reynald, Count of Guelders." By E.W. Safford, Esq. Archaeologia, Vol 77 from 1927 An account of all the marriage expenses for the entrourage etc. The marriage took place in 1332 in Nijmegen. Your area and mine in interest. "Clothing and Textiles at the Court of Edward III 1342-1352." By Kay Staniland. Collectanea Londiniensia: studies in London archaeology and history presented to Ralph Merrifield, London and Middlesex Archaelogical Siceity, 1978, special paper no. 2 An article that incorporates parts of Kay Stanilands unpublished post-graduate thesis. She attended the Coutauld Institute of Art. Much discussion of Order of the Garter accoutrements, and basic everyday clothing versus rich ceremonial clothing. "Buttons and Buttonholes in the Fourteenth Century." By J.L. Nevinson Costume: the journal of the Costume Society, London. Vol 11, 1977, For those who need evidence proving working buttons for the fourteenth century. Additional documenting evidence beyond the London sleeve. References to statuary evidence. "Letter from Thomas Amyot, Esq., F.R.S. Treasurer, to the Earl of Aberdeen, K.T. President, accompanying a transcript of two Rolls, containing an Inventory of Effects formerly belonging to Sir John Fastolfe." By Amyon, T. Archaeologia, Vol 21, 1827. Sir John Fastolfe was a contemporary with the Paston's, from whom the Paston Letters come from. He was, in fact, a problem neighbor. Anyway, this is a series of inventory rolls that aren't in Latin! Late middle English detailing clothes jewelry etc. "A Fifteenth Century Pattern for 'Chausses'" by Christina Hawkins. Costume: the Journal of the Costume Society, vol 6, 1972. A presumably sound fifteenth century pattern taken for pre-knitted stockings, or chausses from a religious order of around 1452. The prioress allowed a pattern to be taken from one of the chausses. "The Medieval Corset." By Kay Staniland. Costume: the Journal of the Costume Society, Vol 3, 1969. Oh joy, an attempt to figure out what a corset was in the fourteenth century. Anyone who has read the wonderful Costume in the Age of the Black Prince, was impressed with the rich descriptions of corsets, and frustrated by the author's lack of knowledge and understanding (The author had ample reason not to know) of what a corset could be. Everything pointed to it being worn on the outside of clothing. Anyway, I won't spoil it, but great work and references in giving an educated estimate of what a fourteenth century corset was. "Medieval Courtly Splendour." By Kay Staniland. Costume: the Journal of the Costume Society, Vol 14, 1980. What courtiers and the entourage of royalty wore to show the status of favor and in society. "A Wardrobe Account of 16-17 Richard II, 1393-4." By W. Paley Baildon, Esq., F.S.A. Archaeologia, Vol 62, 1911. A really fun article. This is an extract from the Keeper of the Wardrobe for Richard II stating the colors and types of fabrics etc kept in holding for the King's pleasure, and mention of some outfits for members of the Kings household. Latin helps, but there is some good english explanation of the items. Well I do hope that some of these articles interest you. I am posting to the Costume group that some of them might like to see them also. Take care. Teresa ------------------------------ From: DameEdith@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 20:33:05 -0400 Subject: Costume Reference Material Perhaps, you can help me. I am a specialty costume designer, my company does a lot of period design costumes for various events. For example, we just dressed the staff for the BRAVEHEART premiere at Paramount in midievil kilts. We are looking for historic costume reference material on CD-ROM. We have several books, but we are looking for images already transferred to disk. Have you seen anything like this? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 10:45:50 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb Subject: RE: Paste Buckle shoes? Paste = imitation gemstones, most frequently diamonds. I'm told it was a pretty good imitation, better than our "glass" or rhinestone imitations today. Took a jeweler to tell them apart, I believe. I don't know if the actual technique for making PASTE still exists today? It could also be colored and would imitate other gems. Or is it the buckled shoes you are having problems visualizing? The buckles undoubtedly had gems around the perimeter of the buckle. <============================================================> < Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov Costumer, RevWar re-enactor ------------------------------ End of Volume 321 -----------------------