From: Gretchen Miller Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 18:27:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 323, 6/9/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 323, June 9, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: Covering women's hair Costume journal information Costume pictures on CD-ROM Hollywood Book and Poster Co Details on La Fille du Regiment costumes Index of costume plates Costumes in "Gettysburg" Bums and bum-rolls What to see at the V&A Question and answer: Medieval costume books still in print Purple in period Question:French colonial crewelwork ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 09:36:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Carl Olson Subject: Women's Hair Covering If it is not too late to add something to the discussion of women's hair covering, I found this interesting passage in a book by an orthodox rabbi, Manis Friedman, titled "Doesn't anyone blush anymore? reclaiming intimacy, modesty and sexuality." "Intimacy is a delicate ability. Like sexuality, the ability to be intimate and the ways of being intimate have to be protected and cultivated...The tool the Bible gives us for this task is modesty: the border that protects our dwelling place. For example, in many cultures throughout history, women have covered their hair. Was this meant to make them less attractive? If so, it didn't work. The head covering itself became attractive. The purpose must have been to protect what was intimate. There is no virtue in being unnattractive. On the contrary, to be beautiful, to be attractive, to be immpressive, is a virtue, especially in marriage. The biblical woman who dressed modestly did so not to be less attractive, but to preserve and protect something fragile and easily lost: her ability to be intimate with her husband, which enriched both their lives." Rabbi Friedman's approach is stricly orthodox judaism; he would probbly choke on the word "empowering," but that is plainly how he views modesty on many levels. The theme of his book is about necessary "borders" between men and women, or husbands and wives, or married couples and everyone else. What he means by this is most of what psychologists mean by "interpersonal boundaries." In societies less turbulent than ours, most social relations are very long-term ones. A degree of privacy is therefore essential. Lacking 4-bedroom townhouses, this is accomplished through modesty in dress and behavior and respect for privacy; humility, shame, embarrasment and guilt are there to tell someone when they have stepped out of bounds, threatening their relationships. Does anyone on this list remember a project in britain some years back, in which several british families were totally immersed in a recreated iron(or bronze?)-age village, right down to using clay for soap. Among the changes in behavior that occurred, very strong sexual taboos took hold between married couples and between parents and children. It may be that we ought to re-examine the wisdom of traditional societies regarding modesty in dress, even as we are doing so in such areas as health, diet and concern for the environment. If this is beyond the scope of this list, I sincerely apologise. I thought it would be of interest to living historians. With kindest regards, C. Olson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 08:59:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Costume, The Journal Let it be known unto the divers persons of this cheerless (just kidding) company that I too was in the darkness and under the foulest weight that ignorance declares to breed the sins of gossip and sow the seeds of chaos in the confusion of men's minds. But there appeared unto me a light the piercing shaft of which sundered the blackest tendrils wrapped round my brain elements which had kept me dull and unaware. Thus the cobwebs were torn aside and that sharp pain of knowledge did enter unto me and I was made to understand. What angels choir did sing to me this sweet song of the light of knowledge, I know not, but have taken upon me to share with you my brethren that joyous responsability which yet weighs me down not at all, but instead bares me up: "Membership prices are as follows (these figures are in British pounds... 15 for "Ordinary" members in Britain; 17 overseas 20 for "Institutional" members; 22 overseas 13 for "Library" members; 15 overseas 8 for "Student" members; 10 overseas You may send U.S. dollar equivalent. I believe the categories are self-explanatory, but if you are uncertain, you should write to inquire. ...Information about the Society is available from: Ms. Pat Poppy 21 Oak Road Woolston, Southampton SO19 9BQ ...When you write, you may want to ask for a price list of other Society publications--back issues, conference papers, bibliographies, a few special publication." Enjoy, Teresa ------------------------------ From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Tue, 06 Jun 95 10:48:05 EST Subject: Re: Women's Hair Covering An addition to Carl Olson's information on covering heads among orthodox Jews: In Jerusalem recently, an ultra-orthodox Jewish sect firebombed a wig shop owned by another orthodox Jew (a woman, who was not a member of that sect) because they felt that women wearing fancy or attractive wigs defeatd the purpose of the orthodox strictures of women covering their heads. It seems you can't please anyone these days. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ From: Edward Wright Date: Mon, 5 Jun 95 17:21:05 TZ Subject: RE: Costume Reference Material | We are looking for historic costume reference material on CD-ROM. I heard a rumor that a British museum (The V&A?) was going to be putting out a CD-ROM of its entire costume collection. It was supposed to available, I think, last December. Has anyone else heard about this? | We have several books, but we are looking for images already transferred to disk. Planet Art has a CD-ROM with approx. 100 royalty-free images in Photo CD format, with several costumes per image. I saw the disk at MacWorld in January and wasn't very impressed because I recognized the book that was used as the source. The illustrations are redrawn from a variety of primary and secondary sources, not credited, and colored without too much regard for or reference to the original. I can't recommend it for serious research, but it's not much worse than the costuming in movies like Braveheart, so if you're only trying for a Hollywood standard of accuracy, it might be useful. You can order it from the big software mail-order houses for about $79. The title is "Costumes of the World" or something along that line. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 95 10:48:59 PDT From: "SNORTON.US.ORACLE.COM" Subject: Dangerous Liasons photographs You can get films stills (both B&W and colour) from Hollywood Book & Poster Co. P.O. Box 539 Los Angeles, CA 90078 213 465 8764 FAX 213 465 0413 They are very nice. They will do telephone and FAX orders with a credit card. They are very sympathetic to costumers. Tell them what film/costumes you want and they will look through their stock and see if have or can get a photo for you. I've used them and had good experiences. A friend of mine called them and wanted a selection of photos showing the StarGate costumes. She was very pleased with the photos she received. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 11:39:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "Steven G. Posalski" Subject: La fille du Regiment Thanks for all your replies. Some replies requested more specific information about the historical French military uniform for which I was trying to locate a source/supplier/rental agency. I am looking for French officer's uniforms from the early Napoleonic era, circa the 1800's - 1810's (approximately). Any further suggestions? Steven G. Posalski | (805) 544-2516 | E-MAIL: Document Doctor | San Luis Obispo, CA 93401 | sposalsk@slonet.org *******"The Doctor is in!"******* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 14:56:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Irene Joshi Subject: Old source to check for costume pics These are old sources but they index plates, etc. in a variety of sources, literally hundreds of books dating to the 1800's. Unfortunately the title has not been updated since c1956. I am certain most large public libraries would have this title. Author: Monro, Isabel Stevenson. Title: Costume index supplement; a subject index to plates and to illustrated text, edited by Isabel Monro and Kate M. Monro. Pub. Info.: New York, H.W. Wilson Co. 1957. Phy Descript: vii, 210 p. 26 cm. Notes: List of books indexed : p. 187-210. LC Subject: Costume -- Indexes. Costume -- Bibliography. Author: Monro, Isabel Stevenson. Title: Costume index; a subject index to plates and to illustrated text, edited by Isabel Monro and Dorothy E. Cook. Pub. Info.: New York, H.W. Wilson Co. 1937. Phy Descript: x, 338 p. ; 26 cm. Contents: Partial contents: List of books indexed : p. 295-338. LC Subject: Costume -- Indexes. Costume -- Bibliography. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Jun 95 16:07:26 PST From: "Lynn Meyer" Subject: Re: Old source to check for costume pics What time periods do these sources cover? Specifically, do they include medieval or Renaissance? Thanks! These are old sources but they index plates, etc. in a variety of sources, literally hundreds of books dating to the 1800's. Unfortunately the title has not been updated since c1956. I am certain most large public libraries would have this title. Author: Monro, Isabel Stevenson. Title: Costume index supplement; a subject index to plates and to illustrated text, edited by Isabel Monro and Kate M. Monro. Pub. Info.: New York, H.W. Wilson Co. 1957. Phy Descript: vii, 210 p. 26 cm. Notes: List of books indexed : p. 187-210. LC Subject: Costume -- Indexes. Costume -- Bibliography. Author: Monro, Isabel Stevenson. Title: Costume index; a subject index to plates and to illustrated text, edited by Isabel Monro and Dorothy E. Cook. Pub. Info.: New York, H.W. Wilson Co. 1937. Phy Descript: x, 338 p. ; 26 cm. Contents: Partial contents: List of books indexed : p. 295-338. LC Subject: Costume -- Indexes. Costume -- Bibliography. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 22:01:27 -0700 From: das3@ix.netcom.com (David Salzman ) Subject: Gettysburg hello- I have been interstesd in the subject of historical garb for quite a number years now and I would like to ask this group a message. I just rented the movie Gettysburg. I know very little about uniforms. How accurate are the costumes in the movie? I noticed that some of the men wore very large hats. Is this the influence of the 1990s? Also, I saw wedding rings on some of the men. Was this a tradition back then? thank you Antonia ------------------------------ From: BJHILL@STTHOMAS.EDU Date: Wed, 07 Jun 1995 09:23:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Bum (roll) The changes in skirt sillhouettes between 1750 and 1799 called for different supporting devices. In the 1750's the fashionable woman wore a hooped petticoat designed to support dome shaped skirts, with more width at the sides than in front or back. The size of the hoops varied with the formality of dress and changed as fashions evolved. In the 1760's and 1770's the hoops became smaller, and were sometimes replaced by a more modest supporting device such as pocket hoops. By the 1780's the fullness of the fashionable skirt had moved toward the back. To create this shape women tied a large pad tapering at the ends around their waists. Called a "bum or "rump" it was stuffed with cork or any light cushion stuffing. By the end of the century the "rump" had shrunk to a small pad, frequently attatched to the raised waistline of a gown to hit at the small of the back. I don't know if this answered the original question, but I thought it worth noting, just the same. brian hill bjhill@stthomas.edu ------------------------------ From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 07 Jun 95 15:50:00 BST Subject: Information Has Teresa been reading St Teresa of Avila by any chance?! Whoever it was who wanted to know what to see in the V&A, apart from the costume display on the ground floor, could I suggest you take a look at the Fabrics Room (may not be the right name). It is up on the first floor by the Jewellry room and has racks and racks of glass trays of fabrics and embroidery. It is more for reference than anything else, not enticingly laid out, but you can get very close to the items, behind glass, but the trays are only a couple of inches deep. Some lovely blackwork, stumpwork (if you like that kind of thing) and gorgous Italian 16th century cut velvet. It has later periods as well, but that was what I was interested in when I went there. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 1995 12:35:55 -0400 From: Beth Stegenga Subject: Book search -- Medieval Costume I am searching for books on Medieval Costume, and as of yet have had no luck. It seems all the titles I have located are out of print (namely CW Cunninghams Handbook of Medieval Costume). I did find one book, called Costumes in Context -- Medieval Times by Jennifer Ruby, but would like a recommendation before I buy it, since it would be mail order and I cannot locate the book here in town. ( I live in Atlanta). If anyone could recommend a good reference book or books on Medieval Costume, I would greatly appreciate. (my years of interest are 12thc - 15thc) If need be, I will ask for a inter-library loan, but due to the extensive research I do I am really looking to obtain my own copy(ies). Thank you! Beth Stegenga nobam@huber.com ------------------------------ From: Edward Wright Date: Wed, 7 Jun 95 10:51:48 TZ Subject: RE: Gettysburg | hello- I have been interstesd in the subject of historical garb for | quite a number years now and I would like to ask this group a message. | I just rented the movie Gettysburg. I know very little about uniforms. | How accurate are the costumes in the movie? I noticed that some of the | men wore very large hats. Is this the influence of the 1990s? Also, I | saw wedding rings on some of the men. Was this a tradition back then? Most of the soldiers in Gettysburg were Civil War reenactors hired for the movie. (I'm talking about the extras, obviously, not the speaking parts.) Civil War reenactment groups generally have pretty high standards of authenticity. I doubt that any of their members would deliberately wear hats with a "1990's influence," but the professional actors, of course, would were whatever the director and costume shop told them to wear. I never managed to stay awake through Gettysburg, so I can't really comment in detail. :-) ------------------------------ From: DennetGA@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 14:12:42 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: H-Costume Digest, Vo... This question seems to pop up alot. This is an earlier response to a similiar question. Hope it is of some help. --------------------- >Forwarded message: >Subj: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume ... >Date: 95-06-06 17:56:53 EDT >From: Dennet GA >To: tallison@mcs.com Greetings! I have a few books that may help. 20,000 Years of Fashion by Francois Boucher Published by Harry N. Abrams, Inc., NY, NY (Still in print) {A VERY good source broken down by country and time periods} Modes of Hats & Headresses by R. Turner Wilcox Published by Charles Scribner & Sons, NY and London {NO lady from the Middle Ages went out with out some type of head covering once she was married. This is an easy reference, fairly authentic..} Book of Costume by Millia Davenport Published by Crown Publishers, NY {Another GOOD reference.} A History of Costume by Carl Kohler Published by Dover Publications, Inc., NY {A so-so reference. His terms on the garments are WAY OFF but he has some good pictures of extent garments. Probable a decent ancillary source} Dover has many books on costume. Some theatre and those are not always accurate. Their other medieval books are fairly good. They have a catalog, their # is 516-294-7000 Depending on how much you want to look into it, art books are also a wonderful reference. Use the 20,000 years of fashion for terms. (or you can e-mail me later and I have a list of garment terms for the middle ages somewhere. If you remember, please keep my e-mail address and let me know when your book is in print. I really love books about the gothic time period. Hope this is of some help... Sincerely, Denise Mahaffey DennetGA@aol.com or CompuServe (102044,263) ------------------------------ From: "Lassman, Linda" Subject: What Colour is Purple? Date: Wed, 07 Jun 95 13:54:00 PDT I'm going to be going to a Saturnalia event in January, and was wanting to try to hit the end of season remnants for wool. I know that purple in the ancient world was much redder than the nice grape colour that one sees today, but can anyone tell me what the modern equivalent would be? - Linda Lassman Winnipeg, Manitoba ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--- Lassman@bldgdafoe.lan1.umanitoba.ca ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--- ------------------------------ From: VICKI@lib.uttyl.edu Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 14:33:25 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Gettysburg I was going to try to stay away from this one and just read what others said, since I have studied women's styles, not men's uniforms for that period. However, I went to see Gettysburg on the big screen in Austin with a bunch of fellow reenactors, and I had friends and acquaintances who participated in the filming. I have also read the reaction in _Camp Chase Gazette_ to the movie. *On the whole* the reenactors uniforms were good--they pulled out their best and most authentic stuff for this one. There may have been some small discrepancies between what a particular regiment actually wore (did the Nth Virginia infantry get a shipment of shell jackets two weeks before the invasion and did the same percentage of reenactors actually wear new shell jackets of the Richmond depot design), but that would have been relatively minor. The next level of "actors" were the professional extras--guys who were not reenactors, who served as the "next row" of backdrop behind the main characters. These were one step less authentic--they wore what they were given and did not have the personal commitment to the small details, the uniforms had not been lived in, and, as I recall the guys saying, they did not necessarily take too kindly to any correction from the reenactment crowd. Their bosses, after all, were the costume designers, props people, etc., who had their own budgets and concerns to worry about. The main actors were at least provided authentic uniforms and accoutrements in the beginning, but then came the problems. A friend of mine made General Lee's original jacket, but Sheen said it fit too tightly. It fit great for a nineteenth century jacket, but Sheen wasn't accustomed to a 19th century fit. And then there was "that hat" (rats! now I've forgotten the actor's name!). You know the one--the cowboy hat in the Civil War movie. Anyway, they could *not* get that hat away from him. It almost got down to "if you want me, you get the hat." Everytime "that hat" showed up on the screen, the guys groaned. (Also Longstreet's beard, but that's another problem). I hope that I've represented the opinions of the reenactors that I've talked to--I was not there, and it's been a while since Gettysburg was the primary topic of conversation. By the way, another big Civil War movie is allegedly in the works, to be filmed in 1996 in western Tennessee, focusing on the Civil War in the western theatre. They will need reenactors both federal and Confederate, all branches, and even civilians this time. Everyone on this side of the mountains is fairly drooling to get in on the action. Vicki Betts vicki@lib.uttyl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 1995 22:48:14 EDT From: JJNQ05B@prodigy.com ( LINDA S ROSE) Subject: French colonial crewel work skirt? Gentlefolk, I've been lurking awhile and have decided to ask the kind readers of h-costume for some help.... I'm a French & Indian War period reenactor, portaying a French Quebec city matron, the wife of a merchant & militia Captain at the end of the war (1760). I have some nice indigo blue rough silk (almost looks like homespun or kettle-cloth) and have been thinking of making it into a party dress. I would like to embroider the skirt with a wool crewel-work border around the hem. I have seen 18th century N.American skirts embroidered with rolling hills, animals, trees & flowers in this time-period (and earlier) in Massachusetts. I'd like to make this gown with a quilted underskirt in a complimentary color. The questions/problems I have are; 1. I have never seen examples this type of crewel-work on any color other than the white (or natural)homespun. Just because *I* haven't seen examples doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Does anyone know if there any existing examples of this type of crewel-work done on a colored background? And, if there are none, why? Is it because there were none, or that no examples have survived for some reason?(i.e. caustic dyes, mordants) Are there any 18th century written references to this work being done on colored backgrounds? 2. Was this style of crewel embroidery just a New England or English style? All the sources I have seen of embroidery like this seem to be from the New England area. Was it also found in Canada? I haven't found any Canadian references that tell me either way. Are there any Canadian h-costumers that can help me? 3. If this particular embroidery design *was* only from New England, are there other types of French or Canadian embroidery designs that would be more appropriate for woman of New France? Could someone pont me to some sources of Canadian *only* information? It's hard enough finding good sources of material for this time-period, let alone good French-Canadian sources when you live in the US. 4. I have seen examples of the quilted underskirt made from a sateen or polished cotton. Is there a style or design of quilting that is more typically Canadian or French than others? Are there colors that would NOT have been used? 5. And then again, perhaps this style of dress (with embroidery) would not be an appropriate choice for a matronly woman. Would it have been considered too "fancy" or frivolous? Or is it something that only a pretty young thing would've worn? I know this is a lot of questions, but the more I look, the more questions I have. I'd like finally have some answers. Any suggestions? Resources? References? Are there any Canadian h-costumers, or museum clothing people that can help me? (Will be at Dearborn this weekend) Linda Socia Rose Sheboygan WI jjnq05b@prodigy.com ------------------------------ End of Volume 323 -----------------------