From: Gretchen Miller Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 18:08:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 325, 6/12/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 325, June 12, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: Purple in period V&A Museum On Period Behavior Books for sale ISO: Period patterns for Algerian dress Accessing the textiles.faq and th h-costume archives ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 09 Jun 95 09:24:00 BST Subject: Re: What Colour is Purple? One thing that has always puzzled me is that porphyry marble is always described as purple - the examples I've seen look more like a dried blood colour - but hence 'born in the purple'. Checking the spelling of porphyry in the dictionary I cam across the 'porphyrio' - a purple coot. What a wonderful idea! Caroline ------------------------------ From: nielsen@boba.mayo.edu (Ann Nielsen) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 08:18:57 -0500 Subject: COSTUME: V & A Museum Hi there! Christina wrote: >Hi Costumers, > >I'm going to the Victoria & Albert Museum (in London, of course!) next >week. Any recommendations? Special exhibits not to be missed? Is the >bookstore good? Comments? Advice? > >Bet you're jealous! > >Christina > Naaah...gonna go there, gonna do that --- in a couple of weeks. Might even buy a t-shirt. ;-) Ann (Therica in the SCA --- Hi Kate!!) -- ********************************************************* * Ann Nielsen --'--,--{@ * * nielsen.ann@mayo.edu * * SPPDG Mayo Foundation * * Rochester, MN 55905 * * *** * * Out of sight, out of mind: Invisible Idiot * ********************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Jun 1995 10:50:37 -0400 From: Joe Marfice Subject: Period Behavior (was: Diverse Information) On 05 Jun 95 11:11:00 BST, Caroline writes: > On the comments on 'Dangerous Liaison', yes the costumes are beautiful, > but they chose the wrong period, because they didn't like the heavier > costumes and wigs of the period the novel is set in (1780's, 90s) > Secondly, why put such effort into the costumes and cast actors who > don't move properly in them! John Malkovich walks like a cowboy, and at > one point Michelle Pfeiffer stomps - in panniers!!! I know she is > expressing anger but there are better ways of showing it when wearing > panniers - it just looked silly. Glenn Close however moved very well - > you could believe she had been brought up from childhood dancing the > period dances. I saw the original production in London, with Alan > Rickman as Vicomte de Valmont - now there's a man who knows how to move > in costume! The production was lovely too, though not naturalistic, all > soft golds as though the sun was beating down outside, like long sultry > afternoons with little to do..... Where does one find comprehensive, reliable documentation of people's personal habits in history! Honestly, how can one presume to know that these actors didn't "don't move properly in them"? We can _presume_ certain aspects of general bearing, from our own experiences of wearing _reproduction_ costume (however fallible in construction), and can infer what "polite society" desired of its adherents from period etiquette books, but to forbid an actor to stomp -- that seems a tad overreaching. The best we can ever hope to do, is to _reasonably_ reconstruct what They might have done. To proscribe a given item, action, or method; that's pretty dicey without solid evidence. | Broom, at The Lady Perrine | aka Joe Marfice | Ministerium honor est. \|/ which means "I'll show you mine if you show me your...source." /|\ 513-222-2330 233 Perrine Street //|\\ af289@dayton.wright.edu Dayton (my fayre citee), OH 45410 ------------------------------ From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Fri, 09 Jun 95 12:11:48 EST Subject: Re: Period Behavior (was: Diverse Information) For Broom, who comments about period behavior: George Washington had (or wrote, I forgot which) a very good book of ettiquette, which still exists, for I have a copy of it. The book explains how to act under various circumstances, how to treat people of certain classes, etc. There also are books of ettiquette and behavior for ladies. When I was doing 18th century living history in some of the historic house in the Washington DC area, we had classes in 18th century behavior based on these books. I learned how to courtsy properly, how to hold my hands or where to put them, who to look in the eye and who not to look in the eye.Society was pretty strictly structured in the 18th century and a faux pas was not tolerated. If you read the novels of manners, you can see what type of behavior was and was not tolerated. The point is that there are contemporary books out there on behavior and movement and they are available for reference. If you want, I can look up the citation. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ************************************************************************** "Nothing arouses suspicion quicker than genuine, all-round proficiency." -- Francis Crawford of Lymond ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: jeff.sargent@hmg.com Date: Fri, 09 Jun 95 09:27:54 Subject: Re[2]: Period Behavior (was: Diverse Information) How delightful - we are recreating the generation gap as well. You are doing a perfect imitation of a maiden aunt remonstratiing with a young lady in regards to her posture. "...and that "chamber music" they listen to...it's just noise..." ;-) Of course there is accurate documentation of people's "proper" manners, but that's because it was improper to record anything else - still we see many documents of misbehavior (the number of laws that come from that time concerning bastards should tell you something). If your particular hobby-horse is depicting an era's self-image, then you're spot on: that boy does clump about, and the young lady should control her tantrums. My dad enjoys dating films by the cars. It's a big world. Oops...must fly. Trousers to render. Cheers et al. -Jef ____________________________________________________________ Jeffery Linden Sargent (510) 601-0900 x310 Sr. MultiMedia Animator jsargent@HMG.COM HyperMedia Group * 5900 Hollis Ste O * Emeryville, CA 94608 ____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________________________ >Subject: Re: Period Behavior (was: Diverse Information) >From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM at Internet >Date: 6/9/95 12:11 PM For Broom, who comments about period behavior: George Washington had (or wrote, I forgot which) a very good book of ettiquette, which still exists, for I have a copy of it. The book explains how to act under various circumstances, how to treat people of certain classes, etc. There also are books of ettiquette and behavior for ladies. When I was doing 18th century living history in some of the historic house in the Washington DC area, we had classes in 18th century behavior based on these books. I learned how to courtsy properly, how to hold my hands or where to put them, who to look in the eye and who not to look in the eye.Society was pretty strictly structured in the 18th century and a faux pas was not tolerated. If you read the novels of manners, you can see what type of behavior was and was not tolerated. The point is that there are contemporary books out there on behavior and movement and they are available for reference. If you want, I can look up the citation. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ************************************************************************** "Nothing arouses suspicion quicker than genuine, all-round proficiency." -- Francis Crawford of Lymond ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: DGC3%Rates%FAR@bangate.pge.com Date: Fri, 9 Jun 95 11:32:22 PDT Subject: re:Period Behavior (was: Diverse Information) I agree with Kathleen. We do have a wealth of material available on period behavior, thanks to the etiquette books and dance manuals printed for the rising middle class in the 18th-19th centuries. As for improper behavior, as dance authority Richard Powers says, when the manuals say, "no lady or gentleman ever...", that is a sure sign people were doing it; it just wasn't "proper". Although some people (at both ends of the social spectrum) flout the "code", whatever it is in your time/place, most people observe it. And there are varying codes for different classes within the same time & place, such as Regency aristocrats vs. the "cits" or middle class. A good start on 18th C. research is _An Elegant Art_, ed. by Edward Maeder, which contains several essays and wonderful costumes from an exhibit at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art (LACMA) ten years ago. One essay is devoted to "The Elegant Art of Movement"; its bibliography points to a number of dance manuals and etiquette books from the period that are primary sources. I was browsing through my copy recently and it is a delight. Regarding secondary sources, are there any descriptions of 18th C. period movement and behavior that could be recommended to people who don't care to wade through the primary sources? _From the Ballroom to Hell_, by Elizabeth Aldrich, which deals with 19th century dance manners, is the best compilation I have seen. Is anything similar out there for other eras? Danine ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Danine Cozzens Internet: dgc3@pge.com Pacific Gas and Electric Company San Francisco, CA ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Fri, 09 Jun 95 17:06:11 EST Subject: Re[3]: Period Behavior (was: Diverse Information) I think Jeff Sargent missed the point of the discussion, which began with a criticism of the film "Dangerous Liaisons" regarding period manners and behavior and how we didn't know how people acted back then. It was pointed out that we did indeed know and that books had been written about proper ettiquette in the 18th century. I don't think anyone was remonstrating anyone else about behavior. If you are doing living history, do you just re-create the clothing and ambience or do you re-create the behavior as best you can. It depends on how far you want to go in your interpretations. But the fact remains that we have ettiquette books that date back into the Middle Ages that we can draw upon if we want to. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ From: jeff.sargent@hmg.com Date: Fri, 09 Jun 95 17:33:33 Subject: Re[4]: Period Behavior (was: Diverse Information) >I think Jeff Sargent missed the point of the discussion... >how far you want to go in your interpretations. But the fact remains that we >have ettiquette books that date back into the Middle Ages that we can draw upon >if we want to... Didn't miss a thing - I was pointing out that the "etiquette books" governed "good" behavior, whereas "Les Liaisons Dangereuses" was about misbehavior, and the passions it drove people to. I made the "recreation" remark in reply to your scandalized reaction - very like the reaction the good Vicomte's walk, or Madame's ill-temper in questionable garb would have raised from their elders. And while garment mistakes were no-doubt made, I find nothing inapropos in the performances. These were exceptional people, therefore it is logical to assume that they would not behave according to the specs of the time - otherwise, they wouldn't be exceptional (I know it's a rather "well duh" response, but I want to make sure I'm being clear.) So, while etiquette books may be concrete, they are not the whole truth of the time. As Daniel Boorstein pointed out, I think it was in _Hidden History_, one can find a fine 10 volume limited-edition contemporary biography of Washington in mint condition in a variety of places, but you are hard-pressed to find a readable copy of Crockett's Almanac, which was in most homes of the time Bon chance. I have the honor to remain yours, in deep and sincere sarcasm, Jeffery Linden Sargent ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jun 95 20:49:08 PDT From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: More books for sale Hey guys, I'm not really a used book dealer but. . . I was recently hired as a reviewer for a new publication focusing on reviews of costume, textile, and needlework books. I will post details as soon as they permit me and as soon as it will be useful (as far as I can tell, regular publication won't begin for some months). I just reviewed the first two books they sent. As it happens I already own copies and want to sell the duplicates. The books are _Draping and Designing with Scissors and Cloth 1920s_ and _Draping and Designing with Scissors and Cloth 1930s_ Both were edited by Sandra Ericson and published by Antiquity Press. They are quality paperback editions, 8 1/2" by 11", each between 50 and 60 pages long. These are reprints of books published by the Women's Institute of Domestic Arts and Sciences. They are step-by-step draping texts. They don't contain patterns or, except for some construction hints, sewing instructions. The 1920s manual focuses on draping whole garments, while the 1930s manual focuses on sections (bodices, sleeves, skirts) that can be combined into garments. There is almost no overlap in the content of the two books or the styles described. The publisher charges $18.95 per book, plus $2 shipping per book. While they are good books I think they are overpriced. I'm willing to sell them together for $15 plus $2 postage (for both). They're in good condition. If you're interested, please send e-mail to aterry@teknowledge.com If you buy them please include a note to indicate that this is what you are buying. I wrote and sell another book called _After a Fashion: How to Reproduce, Restore, and Wear Vintage Styles_. Someone really wanted a vintage sewing manual I mentioned on the net, but sent a check without saying what it was for. So I sent her the wrong book. (We've straightened out the problem, but . . .) Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 21:57:07 -0700 From: das3@ix.netcom.com (David Salzman ) Subject: re period behavior Apparently not all movements while wearing paniers were graceful. In 1744 Eliza Haywood wote that women entering public spaces "do not walk but straddle, and sometimes run with a frisk and a jump, throw their enormous hoops almost in teh faces of those who pass them." If this be the case, can stomping be inconcievable? Antonia ------------------------------ From: PM035@lampeter.ac.uk Date: Sat, 10 Jun 1995 12:07:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Period Behaviour I think we can be more pradgmatic: 1. etiquette books introduce accepted conventions; the correct beh. according to circumstance- an idealized form of beh. Take on board elements of an ideal. form of beh. - act 'within them'. The appropriate rules may well be observed at a function for diplomats but in the majority of social occassions or even in the context of 'everday life' people will be more expressive, less fettered by any sort of rigid code. Maybe, I am treating history in too general terms. Our society is vastly different to med. or anglo-saxon soc. , smaller more closely knit communities- a greater emphasis upon person to person interaction. Any ideas, N.J>Smith. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jun 1995 14:15:07 -0700 From: fishcat@hooked.net (Trystan L. Bass) Subject: Re: COSTUME: V & A Museum ccary@tiara.wpd.sgi.com (Christina Cary) wrote: >Hi Costumers, >I'm going to the Victoria & Albert Museum (in London, of course!) next week. >Any recommendations? Special exhibits not to be missed? Is the bookstore good? >Comments? Advice? >Bet you're jealous! >Christina Went to the V&A 2 years ago & loved it! Spent all of New Year's Day on the dress collection. Very uncrowded. I recommend taking a sketch book, a camera, & a decent amount of money. When I was there the museum *gasp* allowed non-flash photography! Make sure you have really slow speed film (or is it fast speed for low light conditions? I can't remember, but if you ask at a camera shop, they'll know!), & if you're camera has auto-flash, turn it off. Of course, the museum may have come its senses & stopped allowing photography at all! Even if you can take pictures, you might not get much detail since the light is very low & everything is behind thick glass. This is where you start sketching. I just sat down in front of the pieces I liked & started drawing. Don't be shy -- most visitors seem to be the typical tourists who only glance at the displays. Any serious students will be patient and let you finish your sketch, since they want to do the same thing. You will also want to buy books & picture postcards available in the gift shop. I actually couldn't find the _400 Years of Fashion_ book by the V&A about the dress collection, but I did get all the postcards of different dresses. I found the book in a London bookstore, but it's also available from the Raiments catalog. I hope you're going to the Costume Museum in Bath too. Oh yeah, and Nottingham's collection is pretty cool (lots of lace [duh] & great tapestries). And there's all those regiment museums in Scotland. And . . . Enjoy! fishcat@hooked.net @->->-- Trystan L. Bass --<-<-@ TrystBass@aol.com watch this space for my www address --- coming as soon as I master HTML ! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jun 1995 12:24:04 -0400 From: Rowan Subject: hello? Just got the FAQ for this list and it sounds lovely. My current project is an Algerian dress sort of thing. Okay, I know there are better descriptives but I haven't been able to find more than one picture of what I want. It's the sort of thing with a beaded and embroidered square over the chest and I need suggestions for period stitches and patterns. I am told that rug patterns are a good place to start but I need to know how they would have attatched the beads and mozunas and stuff. -Rowan ------------------------------ From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Re: Shops and bibliographies and accessing the archives. Date: Sun, 11 Jun 1995 09:37:46 -0700 (PDT) You wrote: > I have a suggestion, and this may be in the faq (I haven't read it in a > while), but could someone compile a listing of all of the shops/vendors > addresses that have been suggested as good places to find things. It Yes, that's already in the archives as "textiles.faq". textiles.faq is a copy of the historic costume FAQ that's put on rec.crafts.textiles.sewing as well as in this archive, and it has a list of all the mail order sources for costuming, as well as lists of related books and magazines. To get it, send the words: get h-costume textiles.faq as the body of a message to: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com > would be so much easier to pull up one list of address (And what they > sell), than have to go back through several hundred digests to find the > address for a supplier. And then send this list out as a seperate There are also files called TOPICS and CONTENTS which make the job of searching the other archive files for something specific much easier. > Second, Is someone archiving the bibliographies seperate from the > general posts? Same reasons as above. I could probibly do one or the Since people come and go frequently, and since some object to their personal info being available separately, the posted bibliographies are not kept separate, but are available through the general archived discussion files (the digests produced by this list). As I mentioned earlier, separate alphabetical list files (TOPICS and CONTENTS) help make the job of searching for something specific much easier. If posters use a unique subject line, then you can search using that. (Which is why it's important to change the subject line when you change the topic of discussion when doing follow-ups to someone else's article.) Here's how to use the h-costume archives: Archives are available by using e-mail, from the archive server, majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. To get an index of available files, send a message with the words: index h-costume as the body of the message, to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com. Then use the command: get h-costume filename where "filename" is the actual name of the file, to retrieve the named file. Multiple requests per message are allowed. I suggest starting with the files CONTENTS and TOPICS. Note that they are spelled in all capital letters -- the server is case sensitive. When you get an index of files back, you'll notice that some file names are spelled in all capital letters and some are a mix of lower case letters and numbers. Request them exactly as you see them listed. I.e. if you request "contents" you'll get back an error message, but if you ask for CONTENTS you'll get back that file. The CONTENTS file is a list of all the topics discussed, split up by volume numbers. The TOPICS file is an alphabetical list of all the topics discussed, and a notation that tells you in which volume they can be found. So, if you wanted the file called CONTENTS you'd send: get h-costume CONTENTS as the body of a message to majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com and the server would send you back that file. The archives get *at lot* of use -- between 200 and 400 files are requested *each* month! If anyone has a specific file they'd like made available to everyone (an ad for your own store, for example), then please send it directly to me and I'd be happy to place it in the archives and announce its availability to everyone. -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Official keeper of the h-costume archives; on holiday until mid-June) I'm at lunch today though. :-) ------------------------------ End of Volume 325 -----------------------