From: Gretchen Miller Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 19:39:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 327, 6/16/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 327, June 16, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: Indelicate historic costuming terms Question and answer: Jugglers clothing for Ren Faire Bias cut hose--reality or myth Period behaviour ISO: Tibetan Chupa pattern "The wearing of costume" back in print ISO: Info on caped coats ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Edward Wright Date: Tue, 13 Jun 95 12:30:19 TZ Subject: Re: Historical terms (Was: Co... Well, I see someone's been reading Janet Winters again. :-) | The 'bum-roll' of great debate was not the french farthingale - that was the | structured skirt beneath (today's hoop skirt). No, that was the Spanish farthingale. The Italian farthingale was a drum-shaped version of the hoop skirt. The French farthingale was the bum roll. | The bum roll was called a hip bolster, and was a padded roll worn over the | farthingale. Picture a C shaped sausage, with the points ending at about the hip | bones and you've got the hip bolster. Except that it wasn't always C-shaped. Depending on the period, the wearer, the style she was trying to achieve, it could either a C-shape or a full donut. The bumroll might be worn with a Spanish farthingale or instead of one, depending on the period, the wearer, and the occassion. | The trunk hose were actually bias cut fabric or knitted silk hose, with | canions worn over. Canions were almost a male bumroll, being wide, round, | and usually covered in decorated fabric strips. No, canions (or cannons) were the tight-fitting extensions attached to the bottom of (some) trunk hose. They were so called because they covered the femur, or canon bone, of the leg. Bias-cut fabric might sometimes be used for the cannons, because they needed to be tight-fitting. The trunk hose are the wide, round hose you are calling "cannons." The lining of the trunk hose was often cut on the bias, again because they were fairly tight-fitting and needed to give, but the outside, in general, would not be. Knitted silk was used for stockings, or "netherhose", but not, to the best of my knowledge, for trunkhose. | 'Pumpkin pants' were pansied slops. Only during the brief American Renn Faire period, c. 1960-1995. They were never called "pumpkin pants" during Elizabethan times. In fact, if you check the OED, you will find that the word "pumpkin" did not enter the English language, even as the name of a vegetable, until much later than that. I hope you aren't using Janet Winters's patterns as well. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 14:29:54 +0600 From: paulha@psoft.postalsoft.com (Paul Halter) Subject: Jugglers needing RenFaire costumes Hello! I need some costume help, and this seems like the right place to ask for it: I'm a member of a juggling troupe, just starting out, and with any luck, we'll be doing our first Renaissance Festival this summer. We are in need of costumes. In particular, I'm hoping someone can give me advice on what our costumes should be like, and how we ought to go about obtaining or making them. We'd like to keep our expenses to a minimum while trying to look at least reasonably appropriate in a Renaissance setting. Is there something we can make relatively easily? I'm also beginning to look through some Renaissance related text from the archives of this list, but I'd really appreciate any advice anyone might offer. Thanks in advance! Paul --------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Halter o o "I can't remember when I've felt Software Engineer and o o o better!" - Ralph Wilson after Juggler-in-Training o O trying new Norecog vitamins with (paulha@postalsoft.com) _/[ ]\_o special memory inhibitors ------------------------------ From: Edward Wright Date: Tue, 13 Jun 95 13:31:17 TZ Subject: RE: Bias-cut hose | I've heard a lot of people, both here on this list and in the SCA talk about | bias-cut men's hose. I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any primary | sources to show that "they" (of any period/place before knitting became | popular) actually did cut men's hose on the bias. Are you including trunk hose, or only nether hose (stockings)? Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashions shows parts of some trunk hose made out of bias-cut material. She doesn't have any examples of nether hose that use bias-cut cloth, but then, she doesn't have any examples of nether hose. | And the (little) research I've done into period | textiles has given me the impression that even 29" is somewhat wide for | hand-woven fabric. The standard width for English cloth in Elizabethan times and earlier (I don't have the references with me to tell you how much earlier) was one yard. Broad cloth, which was made on a special loom that required two operators, was two yards wide (hence the name). | Secondly, if you put the pattern piece on the bias, you lose the design of | the fabric. I.E., if the fabric is woven with vertical stripes, (or | chevrons or whatever), and you bias cut the piece, the stripes become | diagonal. And I *know* that I've seen pictures of men with vertical stripes | on their legs, but I've never seen a picture of a man with diagonal stripes. In the pictures I've seen, the stripes appear to follow the contours of the leg, suggesting that the stocking was knitted with the stripes or that it was pieced using two colors of cloth (possibly bias cut). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 15:52:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Subject: Re: Bias-cut hose Dear Ms. Holsten: First of all you never give what country or century you were specifically asking for, so I can only answer on what I know, England 14th century. I am alos not a weaver, nor is this information specific. There is a pattern for bias-cut chausses from a fifteenth century (Joan of Arc's time) French abbey that I have seen, but I don't know of the implications for men. Somethings you may want to consider: They did have fabric wider than 29" in the fourteenth century. There were quite a few innovations with machines just before that helped. Non european cloth, say oriental was woven on wider looms that are documentable, and I have seen referenced in Florence May's Silk Textiles of Spain. Additionally, English broadcloth, one of their most reknowned exports was called broadcloth becaus of its unusually large width. Also, bias cut doesn't have to be 45 degrees. That does yield the maximum stretch, but moderate canting of the pattern will give you some of that. Knitting stockings in England were rare even into the sixteenth century where they were imported from Spain. I have the impression that Spain had them some time earlier. Will give you information for the chausesses if you are interested. Sorry I cannot help you. I do know they frequently block printed their designs for stockings, the Germans were true masters of this. Many of the non'knitted designs were embroidered, empearled [sp] or printed. Take care Teresa > > Thirdly, I've seen lots of documentation indicating that men had to be sewn > into their hose every day, to make them well fitting. They had to be sewn > at ankles and knees, and even still bagged a little. (Which implies, to me, > cut on the grain.) > > Finally, I made my husband (who has quite average legs) a pair of hose out > of cotton broadcloth, cut with the grain. They fit quite well, and bag only > a little at the knees and ankles. And broadcloth certainly doesn't have the > stretchiness of wool. And I wasted *much* less fabric than I would have had > I cut the hose on the bias. > > This is something I've been wondering about for a while, and I would love to > hear comments either way. > > Donna Holsten > ------------------------------ From: triciaa@cats.ucsc.edu Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 16:39:04 -0700 Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 325, 6/12/95 Hello, everyone. Just to add my small mite to the "how can we know past etiquette" discussion: During some recent research (18th c), I ran across various letter entries talking about how the middle class women would try to ape the clothes and such of their "betters" and how, upon leaving after a visit with said betters, the betters would rush to the window to laugh at how the middle class women walked, stood, talked, you name it. I found it rather less than aristocratic behavior, m'self, but I just need to know what they did, not judge them. But it was obvious from this passage that there were "right" ways of walking and so forth and less than right ways. And as to the fromping about, one thing becomes very clear after doing any kind of research on the 18th c and earlier: what we think of as genteel (and even the notion of genteel) or aristocratic behavior is vastly different from what the folks who were there thought of it. Some of the "Private Lives" books help, but mostly contemporary attitudes are more easily gleaned from letters, diaries, journals, plays, and novels of the time. Btw, if anyone has any great references for the 18th c (around 1750, English and some French), please let me know! E-mail me privately, it you wish to not clutter the list. (Though I personally *love* the bibliographies that have been posted!) Tricia Adams triciaa@cats.ucsc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 95 16:57:52 PDT From: susanf@EERC.Berkeley.Edu (Susan Fatemi) Subject: Tibetan chupa I had a great weekend indulging in textile orgies. One of the places I went was a Tibetan store--lots of interesting things, one of which was a blouse and jumper set. It was $75 and not great material, but I remembered seeing the jumper pattern in the Folkwear catalogue. Well, it was the OLD folkwear catalogue, before Taunton press took it over. I called them and the rats said they weren't currently publishing it and apparently have no plans to do so. So my question is: Does anyone have this pattern in theri possession? Would you be willing to lend it, sell it, trade it?? I have an unused Folkwear Gaza dress I would be willing to part with, but really I would just like to be able to copy the jumper pattern. They are publishing the Tibetan blouse pattern, but I want the jumper. Thanks to anyone who can give me a lead. Susan Fatemi susanf@eerc.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 20:44:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Bias-cut hose On Tue, 13 Jun 1995, Donna Holsten wrote: > I've heard a lot of people, both here on this list and in the SCA talk about > bias-cut men's hose. I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any primary > sources to show that "they" (of any period/place before knitting became > popular) actually did cut men's hose on the bias. The hose from Herjolfnes (Greenland) are made of bias-cut wool (see, for example Blanche Payne "History of Costume" pp.183-6). "Textiles and Clothing" by Crowfoot, Pritchard & Staniland (pp.185-190) discusses bias-cut hose in England with actual finds from the 14th through 16th century and mention of manuscript illustrations of hose with diagonal striping (such as you suggest would be expected) as early as the 11th century. > I question this for several reasons. First of all, I hand-weave on a 36" > horizontal loom. The widest wool fabric I can get (after > finishing/shrinking) is about 29". I certainly couldn't fit a 45 degree > bias cut leg on this fabric. In fact, I'm not sure that I could even fit a > *calf* on this fabric. And the (little) research I've done into period > textiles has given me the impression that even 29" is somewhat wide for > hand-woven fabric. For a horizontal loom, but not for an upright loom. Early examples of the style may have been made from cloth woven on a warp-weighted loom, which can produce significantly wider fabric with ease. Another possibility on narrower looms is a doubled fabric, if the weave is fairly simple (like tabby). Another possibility could have been piecing, although this would seem counterproductive if elegance were the motivative factor in the style. > diagonal. And I *know* that I've seen pictures of men with vertical stripes > on their legs, but I've never seen a picture of a man with diagonal stripes. > (If someone knows of one, please let me know!) The later vertical stripes could be the result of piecing. Certainly that's the best guess for the entirety of the particolor fad. See above for a reference to diagonal stripes. > Thirdly, I've seen lots of documentation indicating that men had to be sewn > into their hose every day, to make them well fitting. They had to be sewn > at ankles and knees, and even still bagged a little. (Which implies, to me, > cut on the grain.) Interesting. Is it possible that only certain parts of the hose were re-sewn (like the ankles and knees, perhaps) just as the wrists of sleeves might be re-sewn for each wearing but not the entire sleeve. Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jun 95 21:32:56 PDT From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: 18th-century etiquette I was leafing through my copy of _The Age of Magnificence: Memoirs of the Court of Louis XIV_, by the Duc de Saint-Simon, selected, edited, and translated by Sanche de Gramont. Saint-Simon was a vivid writer in a gossipy way, but I don't have time to type in complete entries. But here are some examples of conduct at Louis XIV's court: The Duchesse de Bourgogne took enemas in her chambers in front of the King, the Queen, and others. When on one occasion they asked what she was doing, "The princess explained that Nanon [her maid] brought the syringe all prepared under her aprons, lifted her skirts while she held herself as though she was warming her behind at the fire, and Nanon slipped in the nozzle. Then Nanon lowered her skirts and left with the syringe. . .People usually thought Nanon was fixing the princess's dress. The King and Mme. de Maintenon were extremely surprised and thought it was most amusing." The Duc de Richelieu "often took an enema, which he "would carry around three or four hours before releasing it wherever he happened to be." On the Duc de Vendome: "His filth was extreme, and he bragged about it. . .In the field he . . .mounted his chaise percee and stayed on it to write dispatches and give the morning's orders. It was the time for generals and distinguished persons to come and see him. . .The bishop of Parma was startled at being received by M. de Vendome on his chaise percee, and even more startled at seeing him get up in the middle of the conference and wipe his behind in front of him." Monsieur le Prince subjected his wife to "frequent insults, kicks, and blows." The Abbe Dubois (a cardinal) was once visited by Mme. de Conflans, who thought she was seeking a favor and would not let her explain that she was not. "The cardinal seized her shoulders, flung her around, and dug his fist into her back, saying 'Go to the devil and leave me in peace.' She almost fell in a deal faint, and left in anger and in tears." The Princesse d'Harcourt "openly cheated at gambling, with inconceiveable boldness. When she was caught, she reviled her accuser and pocketed her winnings." Perhaps these are some of the discrepancies between ideal etiquette and actual behavior people have been postulating? Fran Grimble ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 08:35:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Irene Joshi Subject: Re: Period Behavior (was: Div... For those of you who know the book you will be glad to hear that it has been reprinted. Ruth M. Green The wearing of costume: the changing techniques of wearing clothes and how to move in them from Roman Britain to the Second World War. London: Safira, 1994. ix, 171 p. Reprint of: London: Pitman, 1966. I do not know the price. I do not know if the publisher will accept credit card orders The ISBN is 0952114119. The publisher's address is: Safira Publications 93 Darwin Court Gloucester Avenue London NW1 7BH UK --The trouble with being prompt is that people think you have nothing better to do.-- Irene Joshi ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 11:35:17 -0400 From: Joe Marfice Subject: Re: photos at V & A Museum On Sat, 10 Jun 1995 14:15:07, Trystan L. Bass wrote: > ...Of course, the > museum may have come its senses & stopped allowing photography at all! ????? Explain, please? ????? | Broom, at The Lady Perrine | aka Joe Marfice | Ministerium honor est. \|/ which means "I'll show you mine if you show me your...source." /|\ 513-222-2330 233 Perrine Street //|\\ af289@dayton.wright.edu Dayton (my fayre citee), OH 45410 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 16:08:40 +0000 From: "GILLIAN RICHARDS (02) 716 3712" Subject: Subscribing It's so good to know that I'm not the only one that stuffs up commands to the system!!!! Besides that - can anyone enlighten me about capes on coats? I have read many times (usually in G. Heyer) that a coat with many capes was a sign of the wearer being adept at handling the reins. Now, a Dryzabone (Australian Stockman) coat has one cape to keep the rain off the shoulder seams. I saw today a greatcoat with 2 capes. But the descriptions in Heyer include up to 15 capes, and I don't see how that many could fit on, unless they go down past the ankles (ancles?) Were they fitted in a particular way? or was her exaggeration massive, to say the least? Gillian Richards gillian.richards@tafensw.edu.au ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 09:49:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Carl Olson Subject: Re: Jugglers needing RenFaire costumes On Tue, 13 Jun 1995, Paul Halter wrote: > Hello! I need some costume help, and this seems like the > right place to ask for it: > > I'm a member of a juggling troupe, just starting out, and > with any luck, we'll be doing our first Renaissance > Festival this summer. We are in need of costumes. In > particular, I'm hoping someone can give me advice on what > our costumes should be like, and how we ought to go about > obtaining or making them. We'd like to keep our expenses > to a minimum while trying to look at least reasonably > appropriate in a Renaissance setting. Is there something > we can make relatively easily? > > Dear Paul, I have had good success with two publications by Harriet Stetser, called "Pleasant Peasant Costume for Men and Women," which teaches how to adapt modern commercial patterns into renaissance period attire, and "Fancy Pants! A gallery of styles," which gives instructions for making period breeches in a variety of styles. You won't win any awards for authenticity (that word again) but they are a good place to begin and you can embellish and embroider them as the spirit guides you. Her address is: Queta's closet Harriet Stetser 5703 - 19th Avenue south Gulfport, FL 33707 Tel. (813) 381-1238 When I ordered from her a few years ago, these were both $4.00. Best of luck. ------------------------------ End of Volume 327 -----------------------