From: Gretchen Miller Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 18:09:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 329, 6/22/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 329, June 22, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: Question and answer: Frock coat or pattern Archer's clothing Historic clothing in "Withnal and I" Bias cut hose -- reality or myth Heritage Wedding Gown collection Question and answers: Costume museums in Spain and Greece Articles of interest in "Citizen's Companion" Beauty medicines More Folkwear info Bath costume museum recommendation ISO: Picture archives ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JREYNOLDS@VAX2.LUTON.AC.UK Date: Mon, 19 JUN 95 12:13:22 BST Subject: 1830(ish) Frockcoat My fiance has his mind set on wearing a frock coat (England c. 1830-1837) for our wedding. Can anyone out there recommend how to go about either hiring or making one for him. I am in the UK, so obviously I would have to hire from somewhere in the UK, although I am quite happy to travel to most places to pick one up. Thing is, I don't know that many places will have something that specific. So - I guess I will have to make it. The problem is I am not an experienced costumer. The books recommended in the last thread on frock coats were great - but I have difficulty in resizing the patterns correctly. Is there anywhere either in Britain (or which does overseas mailorder) which provides full size patterns for frockcoats? What about materials - what sort of thing would be suitable? Or am I being totally unrealistic in even thinking of doing this? Jo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 06:40:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Kazimierz Samostrelov Subject: Re: Archer's Clothing Gretchen Thanks a bunch. I just hope that my local Arkansas bookstore will order the Osprey book in for me (being in the south, so many places here believe that history begins with the Civil War) Thanks again Chris Nogy aka ] Subject: Re: Bias-cut hose I was reading an article in Costume magazine that talked about the hose worn by a certain sect of nuns in Provence, France. The nunnery claimed that the style of hose hadn't changes since the fifteen hundreds. These hose were cut on the bias. Drea Leed On Tue, 13 Jun 1995, Donna Holsten wrote: > I've heard a lot of people, both here on this list and in the SCA talk about > bias-cut men's hose. I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any primary > sources to show that "they" (of any period/place before knitting became > popular) actually did cut men's hose on the bias. > > I question this for several reasons. First of all, I hand-weave on a 36" > horizontal loom. The widest wool fabric I can get (after > finishing/shrinking) is about 29". I certainly couldn't fit a 45 degree > bias cut leg on this fabric. In fact, I'm not sure that I could even fit a > *calf* on this fabric. And the (little) research I've done into period > textiles has given me the impression that even 29" is somewhat wide for > hand-woven fabric. And, if you've never woven fabric, you don't know quite > how labor-intensive it is. *I* certainly wouldn't want to waste *any* of > the fabric, and with bias-cutting you waste the top and bottom corners. > > Secondly, if you put the pattern piece on the bias, you lose the design of > the fabric. I.E., if the fabric is woven with vertical stripes, (or > chevrons or whatever), and you bias cut the piece, the stripes become > diagonal. And I *know* that I've seen pictures of men with vertical stripes > on their legs, but I've never seen a picture of a man with diagonal stripes. > (If someone knows of one, please let me know!) > > Thirdly, I've seen lots of documentation indicating that men had to be sewn > into their hose every day, to make them well fitting. They had to be sewn > at ankles and knees, and even still bagged a little. (Which implies, to me, > cut on the grain.) > > Finally, I made my husband (who has quite average legs) a pair of hose out > of cotton broadcloth, cut with the grain. They fit quite well, and bag only > a little at the knees and ankles. And broadcloth certainly doesn't have the > stretchiness of wool. And I wasted *much* less fabric than I would have had > I cut the hose on the bias. > > This is something I've been wondering about for a while, and I would love to > hear comments either way. > > Donna Holsten > ============================= aleed@ezmail.ucs.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 09:53:05 -0400 From: Joe Marfice Subject: Re: Bias-cut hose On Tue, 13 Jun 1995 Donna Holsten wrote: >I've heard a lot of people, both here on this list and in the SCA talk >about bias-cut men's hose. I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any >primary sources to show that "they" (of any period/place before knitting >became popular) actually did cut men's hose on the bias. > >I question this for several reasons. First of all, I hand-weave on a >36" horizontal loom. The widest wool fabric I can get (after >finishing/shrinking) is about 29". I certainly couldn't fit a 45 degree >bias cut leg on this fabric. In fact, I'm not sure that I could even >fit a *calf* on this fabric. And the (little) research I've done into >period textiles has given me the impression that even 29" is somewhat >wide for hand-woven fabric. And, if you've never woven fabric, you >don't know quite >how labor-intensive it is. *I* certainly wouldn't want to waste *any* >of the fabric, and with bias-cutting you waste the top and bottom >corners. Very true. Everything I've ever seen of period Medieval patterns suggests an intense obsession with conserving fabric. However, the "top and bottom corners" you mention are only wasted at the beginning and end of the hose-cutting: make one pair, waste two corners; make 20 pair, waste two corners. A Chausser (hose-maker) from the XIVth C would not waste much fabric in his work-day! The limited width of the fabric is only a problem if you do not intend to piece the hosen; period practice allowed this, although I do not know how common it was. When the hose became parti-coloured (roughly XVth C), it became easy to piece from short-width fabric. ... >Finally, I made my husband (who has quite average legs) a pair of hose >out of cotton broadcloth, cut with the grain. They fit quite well, and >bag only a little at the knees and ankles. And broadcloth certainly >doesn't have the stretchiness of wool. And I wasted *much* less fabric >than I would have had I cut the hose on the bias. I wear a pair of separate wool hosen, strung from my trewes. They are cut on the bias and fulled. While not as snug as sewn-tight hosen, they fit quite nicely (especially after each washing). | Broom, at The Lady Perrine | aka Joe Marfice | Ministerium honor est. \|/ which means "Don't blame me--I just pretend to work here." /|\ 513-222-2330 233 Perrine Street //|\\ af289@dayton.wright.edu Dayton (my fayre citee), OH 45410 ------------------------------ From: erain@solitude.mv.us.adobe.com Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 10:47:40 PST Subject: Heritage gown collection Hello folks, My Victoria Magazine Calendar mentions the East Amherst Museum in StonyBrook NewYork as having a "Heritage Wedding Gown Collection" that they actually lend out to people for use in modern weddings. I'm really torn by this concept. Part of me thinks How Cool to let these dresses be used as they were meant to be & to allow brides to wear such wonderful pieces of our past. But the other part of me looks at how much more quickly these museum pieces will disintegrate because of the use they are being put to... Anybody out there have an opinion? Know of any other museums doing something like this? Especially here on the west coast? I'm just curious... Eden eden.rain@adobe.com Please copy replies to me directly since my mail system randomly eats the costume digests :-< ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 17:54:26 PST From: "Cynthia Barnes" Subject: Costume Museums in Spain I'm heading to Greece & Spain this Sept and I've found no reference to costume museums in either country. *sigh* Has anybody seen a reference to one in Spain? What kind of costume museum, you might wonder? Oh, any kind. I know about all the art galleries & places to look at paintings of fashion, but I like to look at real stuff for comparison purposes. The Benaki Museum in Athens is wonderful, if you're a fan of Byzantine jewelry. It's been a long time since Greece was one of the fashion capitals. --cin cynthia@caere.com "Sorry I haven't been around much. I'm easily distracted by shiny objects." --The Tick ------------------------------ From: VICKI@lib.uttyl.edu Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 20:44:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: articles in The Citizen's Companion The June/July 1995 issue of The Citizen's Companion has arrived and has the following articles of interest to ACW era costumers/reenactors: "Popular Trims for Fashionable Bonnets, 1855-1865" by Lynnette Miller, pages 13-15. "What's Wrong with This Picture? Well, Hair It IS!" by Jon Isaacson, pages 16- 18 [men's hairstyles, with recipes for hair oil, macassar, and four types of pomatums] "Victorian Sentimental Jewelry" by Jean Byassee, page 21. Also a review of the Ladies of the 1860's Seminar in Toledo, March 3-5, by Pat Wilson Respectfully submitted, Vicki Betts vicki@lib.uttyl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 19:23:13 -0700 From: fishcat@hooked.net (Trystan L. Bass) Subject: Re: Heritage gown collection erain@solitude.mv.us.adobe.com (Eden) writes: >My Victoria Magazine Calendar mentions the East Amherst Museum in StonyBrook >NewYork as having a "Heritage Wedding Gown Collection" that they actually lend >out to people for use in modern weddings..... >Anybody out there have an opinion? I know this is a *very* unpopular opinion & I'll get flamed till I'm crispy, but I think this is a fantastic idea! Obviously, every museum shouldn't lend out their collections for actual use, but why shouldn't just a few do it? I suspect they're not lending out the rarest and most valuable gowns in their collection, so why not give the public a chance to enjoy, appreciate, and learn about historical clothing in a hands-on situation? Yes, there will be wear & tear, but if they ask you to leave a hefty deposit & pay a substantial fee, then the museum will be better able to clean & repair the lent out items, *plus* they'll be making a little income to acquire more valuable items, *plus* it's great outreach & community PR. I'd love to hear more about this program, particularly what era the gowns are from & what is the rental procedure. And are any other museums in the US doing this??? ---Trystan fishcat@hooked.net @->->-- Trystan L. Bass --<-<-@ TrystBass@aol.com http://www.hooked.net/users/fishcat/ ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 1995 08:33:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Library - Vineland Research Station Subject: Re: costume museums in spain (or elsewhere) Perhaps I'm prejudiced because I'm a librarian, but I can't help but think that if you called your local public library, they would be able to help you from their reference collection. There is a publication called the Museums Directory which I believe covers museums worldwide, as well as North America. I've seen a lot of questions go out to lists that could be answered in most libraries (don't forget your local college or university library - for a small fee you can usually get a borrowing card). Of course it's always fun and profitable to pick the brains of people with similar interests on lists such as this! Sheridan Alder library@onrsvi.agr.ca ------------------------------ Date: 20 Jun 95 08:44:51 EDT From: Dee Wilson <100545.3105@compuserve.com> Subject: Beauty and laxatives You may know from my earlier post that I am writing a book on the history of domestic medicine 1750-1965. This is really a record of the things that we have done to our bodies - both good and bad. Please forgive this posting which is not strictly historical costume, but the history of beauty treatment. In the 18 and 19 Centuries, especially the 19C, people associated proper workings of the bowels with good health and beauty. To this end some women, desiring clear skin, bright eyes and shining hair dosed themselves with laxatives and purgatives. In some cases the dose was 2 or 3 times what we would consider acceptable today. Besides castor oil, squills and buckthornm, a favourite was calomel - a mercury compound. Thus in the 18C ladies were using poisonous metals both internally and externally. Even as recent as the 1950s child care books mothers were expected to know how to dose children with the aim of modifying the natural bowel processes in the name of good health and radiant health.. Can anyone help with any historical references to this rather unpleasant beauty treatment ? Dee 100545.3105@compuserve.com ------------------------------ From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 20 Jun 95 14:40:00 BST Subject: Spain It's not strictly speaking a museum, but Seville Cathedral had a superb exhibition of Opus Anglicanum copes (late medieval English embroidery) last time I was there. They also had 5 Stradiverius's for those interested in musical instruments. Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 10:07:08 -0500 From: Allison Welch Subject: More Folkwear info I called Taunton Press (1-800-888-8286) yesterday to order Folkwear patterns. Just wanted to let everyone know that, as of yesterday, all patterns were in stock except for #207 Kinsale Cloak. You will have to find another source (Raiments, Earth Guild, etc.) for that one. I asked about discounts if buying several patterns and there are no discounts unless you buy a certain quantity of the same pattern. However, in comparison to other sources (unless you are able to buy from a local store who is offering them at a discount), I found that ordering from Taunton to be the least expensive because the shipping charge is only $3.50, no matter how many patterns you buy. I would have paid $12 had I ordered from Raiments. At any rate, if anyone knows of a less expensive way to buy Folkwear patterns, please post. Thanks, -Allison Welch (awbm@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu) ------------------------------ From: "HEATHER ASPINALL" Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 10:11:32 EST10 Subject: Re: 1830(ish) Frockcoat Hi folks! Jo wrote in about making a frock coat for her fiance: >So - I guess I will have to make it. The problem is I am not an experienced >costumer. The books recommended in the last thread on frock coats were great - >but I have difficulty in resizing the patterns correctly. Is there anywhere >either in Britain (or which does overseas mailorder) which provides full size >patterns for frockcoats? What about materials - what sort of thing would be >suitable? Or am I being totally unrealistic in even thinking of doing this? I'm no expert on frock coats or resizing, but if you have patterns available that need fitting or resizing perhaps you might think of taking them to a professional dressmaker or tailor. They ought to have the technical knowledge to resize the patterns and fit them personally and, in my experience, they don't charge exorbitant fees for the amount of effort. If it's for your wedding it's worthwhile having something that fits well and will look great, and it may not cost much more than hiring or buying anyway. Just a thought! Cheers, Heather aspinall@rsbs-central.anu.edu.au ------------------------------ From: Josefowski@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 21:05:37 -0400 Subject: Bath Costume Museum An excelllent clothing museum is located in Bath, England. My wife and I traveled through Bath a couple of years ago. Excellent, period pieces. I think it was associated with a textile study university. ------------------------------ From: Staylace@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 21:13:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Heritage gown collection The S.B. Museums might occasionally have gown exhibitions, but I am unaware of any lending. In the next town over, Port Jefferson, however, there is a gown shop which RENTS vintage gowns for weddings. Quite a classy place--and they care for their clothes. Please clarify. Tom Lierse Long Island Staylace Association ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 23:35:21 -0700 From: althea_sexton@wsu.edu (Althea Sexton) Subject: COSTUME:Archives Does anyone know a source of a list of clothing archives and women's photograph archives in the US? I am doing research on maternity clothing history and post-natal clothing. Needless to say, I am having a hard time finding info sources. You can post me privately or on-list. Thanks in advance. end | Althea L. Sexton | Cannot find REALITY.SYS. Universe halted. | http://134.121.231.75/ppweb.html | ALTHEA_SEXTON@WSU.EDU | ALTHEA@UIDAHO.EDU ------------------------------ End of Volume 329 -----------------------