From: Gretchen Miller Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 19:18:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 330, 6/28/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 330, June 28, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: Bias-cut host--myth or reality Heritage gown collection Bead shop sale Question: History of shoulder padding The Bonnie Lass Picture archives H-costume bibliography available ISO: Info on 18th C masks ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jennyb@pdd.3com.com Date: Wed, 21 Jun 95 10:45:26 BST Subject: bias cut hose | I've heard a lot of people, both here on this list and in the SCA talk about | bias-cut men's hose. I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any primary | sources to show that "they" (of any period/place before knitting became | popular) actually did cut men's hose on the bias. Textile History,18 (2), 175-86, 1987 The Bocksten Man's Costume Margareta Nockert The original evaluation of the costume by Dr Albert Sandklef listed the costume as consisting of cloak, hood, tunic, hose, foot wraps, quiver and a cod piece made of wool, together with a belt, a sword-belt, two knife sheaths, a cover for the thumb, and a pair of leather shoes. Margareta Nockert puts up a good arguement for the quiver being another hose (it shows wear at the point where a knee should go, and resembles the other hose). She also argues that the cod piece is actually a coin purse. From characteristics of the tunic she dates the body and costume to the 14th century. I shall quote from the section on The Hose and Footwraps... "The man wore long hose cut from a woolen twill. this cloth was originally fulled but is now worn on teh obcerse side, except in the folds. the fulling remains on the reverse side, except at the knees, where the hose are very heavily worn. The cloth was cut on the bias to make the hose more pliable. A complete loom width was used for each leg, and both selvedges are extant, one at the top of each leg and the other beneath the foot. The hose were joined together with a seam at the back. At the bottom they are cut to form a V-shaped piece above the foot, with a rectangular piece on each side of the wedge reaching down the sides of the foot. At the front the hose taper off into a point which reaches up the thigh. They were held up with leather straps attached to three points of each hose." | Secondly, if you put the pattern piece on the bias, you lose the design of | the fabric. I.E., if the fabric is woven with vertical stripes, (or | chevrons or whatever), and you bias cut the piece, the stripes become | diagonal. And I *know* that I've seen pictures of men with vertical stripes | on their legs, but I've never seen a picture of a man with diagonal stripes. As far as I know the cloth was plain coloured & was not patterned in any way, so no stripes would have shown onthis particular pair of hose. The bias cutting isn't as much of a waste of cloth as it seems, it's an easy way to get a fair amount of elasticity out of your cloth which one needs for tight fitting hose, and the bits left over at the corners could be used for the foot wrappings so they are not just thrown away. | And the (little) research I've done into period | textiles has given me the impression that even 29" is somewhat wide for | hand-woven fabric. It varied with time & place, wider stuff was woven in Europe to make square or rectangular capes from late Roman to early medieval times. Jennifer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 07:53:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Judy Gerjuoy Subject: Re: bias cut hose According to MEDIEVAL ENGLISH CLOTHMAKING: An Economic Survey by A. R. Bridbury, in appendix A, there is a lot of information about the length/width of cloth and the reguatlions governining its size. The minimums kept changing, and varied depending on whether it was English or foreign cloth, but for instance: 1196, cloth must conform in width to a standard of 2 yards. 1328, ray cloth before fulling must be 6 quarters wide, and colored 5.5 quarters. It was cancelled in 1653, and restored in 1373, with ray at 5 qurters, andcolord ar 6. More going back and forth, and then o 1464/5 back to 2 yards or 7 quarters. Even with the 5 quarters, and losing width through fulling, this material would be plenty wide enough for bias cut hose. Also, not all hose was free from bagging. Take a look at Durer's Drummer and Flutist. The hose that the flutist is wearing does not fit terribly well around the knee and the rear. There is definate sagging and bagging. There are other pictures as well, that is just the first that came to mine. Judy Gerjuoy jaelle@access.digex.net ------------------------------ From: erain@mv.us.adobe.com Date: Wed, 21 Jun 95 08:37:47 PST Subject: Re[2]: Heritage gown collection Sorry, I don't really have any further info. I got this from a one paragraph blurb on a daily pull off calendar. The exact wording is: "Breathtaking antique wedding gowns are the living legacy at East Amherst Museum in Stony Brook, New York, where brides-to-be can borrow dresses from the Heritage Wedding Gown Collection. The collection has grown to include more than 150 dresses, reflecting 150 years of bridal fashions." Maybe the editors didn't check their facts well? Eden _______________________________________________________________________________ Subject: Re: Heritage gown collection From: Staylace@aol.com at cc_smtp Date: 20 Jun 95 6:11:00 PM Well, I am a bit confused, as I live near Stony Brook. In that town, there is only ONE museum (The Museums at Stony Brook)--isn't East Amherst in Massachusetts?. The S.B. Museums might occasionally have gown exhibitions, but I am unaware of any lending. In the next town over, Port Jefferson, however, there is a gown shop which RENTS vintage gowns for weddings. Quite a classy place--and they care for their clothes. Please clarify. Tom Lierse Long Island Staylace Association ------------------------------ From: Staylace@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 14:03:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Re[2]: Heritage gown coll... Yes, it does appear that way. Any gowns at the Museums of Stony certainly would not be in the number range of 150 in any case. They might have 10 or so, if that. Well, one cannot believe everything one reads. Interesting idea, though. Regards, T. Lierse L.I. Staylace Association ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jun 95 14:45:25 PST From: "Lynn Meyer" Subject: Bead Shop Sale If you're interested in bargain beads... there's a "maybe-closing sale" described below. Disclaimer: I haven't been there myself, but several beaders have said it's a good source. -- Halima ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ >Subject: RISING ARROW CLOSING SHOP >Author: lyn@anchor.engr.sgi.com (Lyn Dearborn) at Internet >Date: 6/21/95 2:26 PM CALLING ALL BEAD WEAVERS/ ARTISANS OF NATIVE AMERICAN PERSUASION, ETC. Chris & Jerry of Rising Arrow in Sunnyvale are retiring/closing the shop, etc. One of their best workers/sales people/wonder women, D.J., would like to buy the store **IF** she can get some other people interested in investing money &/or time in this venture. Jerry is willing to handle a "2nd" on it if interested parties can come up with the 1st half. The price **WAS** $145,000 including their BIG truck which is used to haul a major part of their inventory to the various PowWows. He has since some down significantly on the value of the truck itself. It often doesn't seem "THAT CROWDED" in the store itself, but he does an excellent business in Mail Order. So, D.J. and probably Kathy Aronstem (who used to work there) are trying to get other investors. IF INTERESTED, OR EVEN **POSSIBLY** INTERESTED, CALL KATHY ARONSTEM AT: 415/ 855-9576. CLOSING SALE: Beginning Monday July 3rd, the following discounts will be happening: Week of July 3rd, 10% off; Week of July 10 20% off; Week of July 17, 30% off. Flyers will be mailed out to people on their mailing list shortly. Give it some thought, and spread the word!! ^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+ "We did not weave the web of life. We | Lyn Dearborn; Naturalist/Person are merely a strand in it. Whatever | Turtle Clan Ojibwe we do to the web, we do to ourselves" | Basketry Instruction --"Walk gently on Mother Earth" -- | dearborn@anchor.engr.sgi.com ^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:28:16 -0700 From: das3@ix.netcom.com (David Salzman ) Subject: male shoulders Hello- Can anyone help me? I would like to call upon the expertise of this group. A friend of mine bought a frock coat from a company that specializes in 1890s western wear. She says that the coat is made from an authentic pattern, but the shoulders are padded the same as modern mens jackets. The pads are at least an inch thick. When did mens coats began to be padded across the shoulders? I know that in the 18th century, the coats were padded across the chest, and the shoulders were not padded. When did the "broad shouldered" look start. Thank you. Antonia ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 22:57:05 +0800 From: writan@iinet.com.au (Writan Consulting) Subject: FORM >X-POP3-Rcpt: writan@classic >>From web Thu Jun 22 11:25:43 1995 >Return-Path: web >Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 11:25:41 +0800 >From: Web Admin >To: writan@iinet.com.au >Subject: FORM > >Results of form are: > > email: fauburn@ecel.uwa.edu.au > name: Assoc. Prof. Francis Auburn > destination: writan@iinet.com.au > description: This is a very attractive Home Page with a particularly good collection of photos and graphics. > >I would be grateful if you could give me the email/snail mail/fax address of Writan so that I can see their rates for Home Page work > >Want to earn some Quids as our official pici bloke :-) out of the blue Bevan ------------------------------ From: Cpt11Miss@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 14:41:10 -0400 Subject: Historical Scottish Attire, Lady Dear Friends: I have been reading a lot of our recent mail concerning Brave Heart and thought I would pass on a name for your files. The Bonnie Lass Company specializes in historical Scottish Womens clothing c. 1630-1830, hand woven tartans by master weaver Peter McDonald of Scotland, and Kilts by Bob Martin, reknown kilt historian. The owner, Karen, has researched period clothing intently and accurately reproduces garments both in material and sewing techniques. She is a wealth of knowledge and has numerous connections in the Scottish societies. She can be reached at arisaid@aol.com. Hope this helps those who are interested in historic Scottish attire! Layne Chartrand ------------------------------ From: joannl@compass-da.com Subject: RE: Heritage gown collection Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 15:53:13 PDT Eden write: >> From: erain@solitude.mv.us.adobe.com >> Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 10:47:40 PST >> Subject: Heritage gown collection >> My Victoria Magazine Calendar mentions the East Amherst Museum in >> StonyBrook NewYork as having a "Heritage Wedding Gown Collection" that >> they actually lend out to people for use in modern weddings. I'm really >> torn by this concept. Part of me thinks How Cool to let these dresses be >> used as they were meant to be & to allow brides to wear such wonderful >> pieces of our past. But the other part of me looks at how much more >> quickly these museum pieces will disintegrate because of the use they >> are being put to... Anybody out there have an opinion? I have an opinion, but have no specific information about the East Amherst Museum. During my salad days, I worked as a secretary at a museum attached to Oregon State University in Corvallis (Horner Museum). I can state for a fact that, though something may be old, it does not necessarily have historic or curatorial value it its own right. A museum may acquire or be gifted items which are not of use to its collection. Often museums will trade items, but sometimes they just sell them off (something to remember before you give great-aunt Minnie's china to your local museum). IMHO, if a museum could rent its non-historic vintage clothing to finance restoration of its rare pieces it would be appropriate (the collectable clothing giving its life as it were to save its rarer siblings). No museum worthy of it's name would loan out its collection for wearing. Just my opinion, joann loos ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 19:03:56 -0400 From: jembree@sparky.inasec.ca (John Embree) Subject: picture archive A friend of mine gave me the following site that I thought might be of interest to people on this list. It's a collection of historical gifs of people, places, cultures and events. Lots of interesting stuff. It's slanted to Canadian history from the 1600's to the 1960's. It's at http://schoolnet.carleton.ca/cdisk/gallery. John Embree ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 15:19:13 PST From: "Cynthia Barnes" Subject: h-costume bibliography Fellow Fashion Fanatics, After a year and a half of reading h-costume, I've decide to post the list of books that have had any mention at all on h-costume (and similar lists like cw-reenactors). It was a group effort. Thanks to all the librarians, casual reviewers and enthusiasts for supplying info and commentary. You can fetch your own copy to clutter up your mailbox! Send the commands: get h-costume costume_bibliography.faq as the body of a message to: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com and the server will send you back the file. Yes, I'm sure there will be corrections. Please send them directly to me not to the list or the list maintainers. Updates as the spirit moves me! --cin Cynthia@caere.com "Sorry I haven't been around much. I'm easily distracted by shiny objects." --The Tick ------------------------------ From: ccary@tiara.wpd.sgi.com (Christina Cary) Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 16:47:30 -0700 Subject: Re: Heritage Wedding Gowns > From: erain@solitude.mv.us.adobe.com > Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 10:47:40 PST > Subject: Heritage gown collection > > Hello folks, > My Victoria Magazine Calendar mentions the East Amherst Museum in > StonyBrook NewYork as having a "Heritage Wedding Gown Collection" that > they actually lend out to people for use in modern weddings. I'm really > torn by this concept. Part of me thinks How Cool to let these dresses be > used as they were meant to be & to allow brides to wear such wonderful > pieces of our past. But the other part of me looks at how much more > quickly these museum pieces will disintegrate because of the use they > are being put to... Anybody out there have an opinion? Know of any > other museums doing something like this? Especially here on the west > coast? > I'm just curious... > Eden > eden.rain@adobe.com Yeow, I would be dead against that. Are you sure these are genuine vintage gowns, or could they be reproductions? Different sizes of bodies putting on the gowns, straining the seams, perspiring, spilling food and drink... I have recently bought "400 Years of Fashion" and "Fashion in Detail" from the Victoria and Albert Museum, and "Worth to Dior" from a museum in Victoria, Australia. All 3 books emphasize how delicate vintage garments are or become over time, how careful and painstakingly they have to be cleaned, how quickly the colors and fabrics deteriorate when exposed to light. Certainly none of these museums would lend out their garments. I'd much rather hear about authentic reproductions that people can rent to have that vintage experience without endangering the dwindling numbers of genuine vintage garments that exist. In fact, that's a pretty good idea for a business! Christina -- First name: Christina Last name: Cary E-mail address: ccary@tiara.wpd.sgi.com _______________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 16:43:37 PST From: "Cynthia Barnes" Subject: Photo Archives @ UCLA >From: althea_sexton@wsu.edu (Althea Sexton) >Does anyone know a source of a list of clothing archives and women's >photograph archives in the US? I am doing research on maternity >clothing history and post-natal clothing. UCLA photo archives is rumoured to have put out a CD-rom based on their extensive collection. --cin Cynthia@caere.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 20:47:22 -0700 From: jastown@halcyon.com (Jas. Townsend & Son, Inc. ) Subject: 18th century masks I have a request for any information on 18th century masks. At our local Rev event in October we always have a fancy dress ball on Saturday evening. This year the theme is a Masked Ball, as in the film _Amadeus_. Since this is after hours we don't have to quite as concerned about authenticity, but the more we know the better the results will be. Meaning, the masks in the movie were fantastic, but how accurate were they? (Other than those weird long hook-nosed masks - I've seen pictures of those elsewhere and I'm sure those are correct.) Thanks in advance, Theta @jastown ------------------------------ End of Volume 330 -----------------------