From: Gretchen Miller Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 18:27:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 332, 6/30/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 332, June 30, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: How to get the archives Costumes in Braveheart The Secret of Scotland Question and Answer: Identifying WWII German officer's hat Elizabethan Interests update ISO: 1800s coachman's cloak Question and answer: Closures for 18th C ball gown Costume museum in Spain ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 09:49:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Teresa Shannon Would someone please instruct me in very precise terms using very small words, as to how I can access old files? I brought up the TOPICS and have tried seven different ways to get those files: h-costume get hcos.950221@lunch.engr.sgi.com get hcos.950221 get 'hcos.950221' get "hcos.950221" h-costume-hcos.950221@lunch.engr.sgi.com h-costume-get hcos.950221@lunch.engr.sgi.com I forgot the seventh try, anyway, nothing worked, the manager wasn't informative enough for me. Please give me an example, sorry to waste everyones time. Teresa ------------------------------ From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Subject: Re: getting specific files Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 09:50:58 -0700 (PDT) > Would someone please instruct me in very precise terms using very small > words, as to how I can access old files? I brought up the TOPICS and > have tried seven different ways to get those files: > > h-costume get hcos.950221@lunch.engr.sgi.com > get hcos.950221 > get 'hcos.950221' > get "hcos.950221" > h-costume-hcos.950221@lunch.engr.sgi.com > h-costume-get hcos.950221@lunch.engr.sgi.com Send the commands: get h-costume hcos.950221 as the body of a message to the server: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com and the server will send you back the specific file hcos.950221. In order to successfully send you a file, the Majordomo server needs to know the answers to the following questions: what do you want to do? ("get"); where do you want to "get" stuff from? (h-costume); and what do you want to get? (hcos.950221). Therefore, what you need in your command line, and the order you need it in, is: get name-of-list name-of-file So you need the "get" command, the name of the list (h-costume), and the specific name of the file (like TOPICS or hcos.950221 or whatever.) -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) ------------------------------ From: ccary@tiara.wpd.sgi.com (Christina Cary) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 10:52:54 -0700 Subject: COSTUME: Braveheart Hi Costumers, I saw Braveheart, starring Mel Gibson, on Saturday night. Entertaining but very gory film--lots of decapitation, torture, dismemberment, throat slashing, eye gouging, stabbing, etc. Eeek. Anyway, I am interested in educated opinion on the costumes worn in the film. It starts in 1280 and ends (via voiceover) in 1314. It is set in Scotland, with some scenes set in England. They do talk about clans, and wear tartans, although they were often so grubby that I couldn't tell one from another. And was it customary for soldiers of the time to paint their faces in blue stripes for battle, as William Wallace (Gibson) and his compatriots did? Regarding the women's costumes, there are only 3 women's roles in the film. One heroine wears grubby stuff. Princess Isabella (Princess of Wales, daughter of the King of France) and her lady in waiting wear some nice things. I was curious about their correctness, however. For one, the bridal gown is ivory and gold. I thought that white/ivory bridal gowns weren't popular until Queen Victoria, who married about 1840 or so. Was white/ivory also worn before that, or was this done to cue modern audiences that she was the bride in the scene? Also, a couple of Isabella's dresses were made of what appeared to be panne crushed velvet, and darned if they didn't cling like they were made of Lycra! One was also in a deep raspberry pink. (I won't comment on the lipstick, eye shadow, eyeliner, and mascara.) Any comments on fabrics or colors of this period? She looked lovely, but was it authentic 13th century? Apologies if this has already been covered. Oh, by the way--judging from this film, nothing comes between a Scotsman and his kilt. Nothing. Thanks! Christina -- First name: Christina Last name: Cary E-mail address: ccary@tiara.wpd.sgi.com _____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 20:18:57 PDT From: aterry@Teknowledge.COM (Allan Terry) Subject: Scostmen and kilts Well, last time I asked a Scottish reenactor what Scotsmen wear under their kilts, he invited me to come up tp his place and find out. However, there were problems with this research method, so I guess I'll never know. . . . Fran Grimble ------------------------------ From: Susan Carroll-Clark Subject: re: costume in Braveheart Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:54:09 -0400 (EDT) Hi all... Delurking. This is the period I study. I cannot speak for the Scottish clothing, but I will add a couple of comments on the womens' dress. It looks as if the costume research was not terribly bad on this one--at least for the most part I could understand what they were _trying_ to do, despite the clinging lycra-ish velvet. The basic styles were OK, though I would have expected to see more surcotes (simple sleeveless ones--not quite the full sideless] of a few decades later). The headgear was quite good--I've seen the style with the wimple and "princess Leia" earpieces in monumental brasses, though from a slightly later period. The male English styles were also fairly good--once again, no surcotes, though. Colour-wise for the class these pieces were meant for I saw few real problems. Mulberry pink is actually a fairly easy colour to obtain, though usually it's more of a wine colour. Pastel pink is possible, but doesn't seem to be common during this period. The one unforgivable sin, IMHO, was the use of obvious synthetic crushed velvets which had that unmistakable lycra drape. I kept thinking of my velvet leggings, which are made of the same stuff. Ugh. Not bad for Hollywood, 'tho. Cheers! Susan Carroll-Clark sclark@epas.utoronto.ca ------------------------------ From: PM035@lampeter.ac.uk Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 13:21:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: WW2 German Army Officers Visor Cap. The grandfather of a friend shot a german officer in WW2, taking his armband and cap. Trying to identify cap, but no luck. Details I have consulted B.L Davis ' German Army Uniforms and insignia 1933-45' but cannot positively identify it. Seems to be standard Army- in terms of shape and colour. Has red piping, silver wreath cockcade has instead of the colours of the german flag, a small swastika in the centre of what seems to be a cog wheel. The eagle is a yellow/ bronze colour, so differs from standard silver eagle. The twisted silver braid cap cord is missing but the buttons that would secure it are of an enamel type. These seem to be the notable differences in respect to a standard army officers cap. Any ideas as to value- I would guess about 350- 500 pounds? Thanks, N.J.Smith. ------------------------------ From: acacia@iccu6.ipswichcity.qld.gov.au (Christina d'Aquino) Subject: Re: COSTUME: Braveheart Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 00:11:23 Hi - Also delurking Saw Braveheart - Loved the film. The dresses on the women are too awful. The cut is OK for the Coathardies but the lycra velvet no way - velvet was not in the 1300 for which the film is set and I would have also expected some surcoats or maybe later period cyclas. The head gear on the other hand was wonderful - wimple etc are strait off some of the brass rubbings, etc from the period - though more around the very early 1400's. The pale pink may also be period - definately illuminations of the early 1400 show women in pale pink dresses. i.e Christine de Pisan L'Epistre d'Othea - Hunting for Deer - French c1400 definately show men and women in pink and red dress. I did hear some where (can't remember now) of a poem (or something similar from the period) which told of how to get pink from a plant growing in a circle of oak trees at a particular time of year. How in england they followed the instructions to the letter and were able to get a particular shade of pink. Seems at that time of the year a chemical reaction triggered by the oak trees causes that pigment to be producted - Strange! Don't know about anyone else but I am going back to see the movie and look closer at the headwear ( and do my best not to look at the dresses) Bye for Now Acacia Navarre (Engage Lurk Mode) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 13:36:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb Subject: RE: Scostmen and kilts >Well, last time I asked a Scottish reenactor what Scotsmen wear under their >kilts, he invited me to come up tp his place and find out. However, there >were problems with this research method, so I guess I'll never know. . . . *I've* been told that you really don't want to ASK a Scotsman this question -- as he will grab your hand and make you feel for yourself. On the other hand, a newly kilted Scotsman in my RevWar group had his first experience with "dying in battle" in a kilt this past weekend. He was accustomed to falling to the ground with abandon -- and mortally embarassed himself by exposing himself to his neighbors. (Since it was his first day in a kilt, he WAS wearing shorts, but I expect the word "embarassed" is particularly appropriate, if you take it apart by syllables!) Deb Baddorf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 12:44:10 PDT From: "SNORTON.US.ORACLE.COM" Subject: Identity German Officer's Visor Cap Call Christie's or Sotheyby's in NY. Both (especially Christie's) have military experts on staff and may be able to identify the cap from a photo. Both of these auction houses have regular auctions of military items. They could tell you the most recent selling price for a cap of that type. Sally Norton snorton@US.oracle.com ------------------------------ From: MarieD0108@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 22:28:20 -0400 Subject: Elizabethan Interests - Update Wow! I would never have guessed there were so many people out there interested in the Elizabethan period. Unfortunately, my online service is not particularly friendly towards large mailings (it chokes) and that makes it difficult to shear off from the main list. So, lets just talk for everyone to enjoy, and see what happens. I still have everyone's email addresses, so I will continue to try and find a way to make it happen. Marie ------------------------------ From: Edward Wright Date: Wed, 28 Jun 95 10:51:11 TZ Subject: Re: COSTUME: Braveheart | The cut is OK for the Coathardies but the lycra velvet no way - velvet was not | in the 1300 Do you mean was not in Scotland by 1300? Velvet was probably invented during the 12th Century -- 13th Century at the very latest. By 1247, Florence had a guild established for velvet weavers. St. Paul's in London had velvet chausubles in its inventory by 1295. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 15:17:48 -0500 (EST) From: andrea ruth leed Subject: Re: COSTUME: Braveheart Velvet, yes--crushed lycra velvet, no. the closest thing modern fabric stores have to period velvet is cotton velvet. Go to Jo-Ann's sometime, and compare cotton velvet and crushed lycra velvet. The difference is unpleasantly obvious. On Wed, 28 Jun 1995, Edward Wright wrote: > > Do you mean was not in Scotland by 1300? Velvet was probably invented > during the 12th Century -- 13th Century at the very latest. By 1247, > Florence had a guild established for velvet weavers. St. Paul's in > London had velvet chausubles in its inventory by 1295. > ============================= aleed@ezmail.ucs.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 17:55:24 -0700 From: jdhester@ix.netcom.com (JOSEPH HESTER ) Subject: coachman's cloak To whom it may concern: I am interested in finding a 1800's style "coachman's cloak" (ie reproduction). If you have any information on such an item, please respond to me at: jdhester@ix.netcom.com Thank you for your time. Sincerely, Joseph Hester ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 19:13:35 -0700 From: fishcat@hooked.net (Trystan L. Bass) Subject: 18th c. dress fastener Greetings all--- I'm making an 18th century ball gown & using the Pegree of Williamsburg 1776 dress pattern (it seems to work for me ; - ) . It's for a historical fantasy event in November. I'm changing the pattern so the closure is in the back instead of the front/stomarcher side. I did this w/this pattern once before & used hook & eye tape up the center back, but I'm not sure I want to do that again. Instead, I want some kind of lacing (primarily so it has a little more flexibility in fit). Now, my question is, how should I do the lacing? I could make little loops out of cording & run the laces thru these loops (w/a big placket behind it). Or I could use grommets -- this would give a more snug fit & smoother look, which I prefer. But metal grommets down the back of this (hopefully) lovely gown would look ugly. So what do I do? What else can I use to reinforce the lacing holes, that is moderatly historically accurate and is not _too_ difficult for a proficient beginner seamstress? I'm not anal about historical authenticity, so sources & citations aren't necy. I just want something that looks kinda right with the costume & that is not insanely difficult for me to do! Thanks so much!!! ---Trystan (aka Constanza . . . ) fishcat@hooked.net @->->-- Trystan L. Bass --<-<-@ TrystBass@aol.com http://www.hooked.net/users/fishcat/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jun 95 18:07 WET From: bach@lava.net (Terry A. Bach) Subject: costume museums in Spain This message is for the person who was looking for Costume Muesums in Spain. Sorry, I tried to reply that day, but my computer was being a bad boy. Anyway, I lived in Madrid from 91-94, and the only costume stuff there is a small side part of the Palicio Real. They have coats of armor, and some existing textile stuff. There is a great Museo de Textils in Barcelona. It is in the Gothic Quarter, very close to the Picasso Museum, just down the street. It has a good collection of authentic garments from the 18th Century to Present. I would highly reccomend it. Please E-Mail me privately and I'll tell you how to get to the small textile area of Madrid, if you are interested. Buena suerte! Laura Bach ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 10:45:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Deb Subject: RE: 18th c. dress fastener >Now, my question is, how should I do the lacing? I could make >little loops >out of cording & run the laces thru these loops (w/a big placket >behind >it). Or I could use grommets -- this would give a more snug fit & >smoother I think loops would not allow for a very tight closure - they strike me as a very bad choice (but, suit yourself!) Grommets are indeed wrong for the period - metal grommets weren't around. The correct closure (besides the fact that dresses DIDN'T close in the back) would be to punch holes with an awl and sew around them, turning them into round button holes (through which you put your lacing). You could also make 1/4" buttonholes in the regular, straight slot manner. Not especially correct, but you said you didn't care. Make them horizontally, not vertically, if you use this method. Since you don't care, a really easy choice (dead wrong, but easy, and might look ok) would be to buy the hook&eye tape like you used last time. Buy twice as much. Sew the EYE tape on both sides, and put your lacing through THAT. Throw away the hooks. This would have less give than your loop suggestion, so it would be capable of a snug closure. Not sure I would LIKE it, but it's easy. What's wrong with the original closure up the front or side of the stomacher? The stomacher could be laced up the center with a bit more historical correctness than the back closure (though stomachers, being decorative, were usually closed with hooks). Anyway, there's a few random suggestions! Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov ------------------------------ End of Volume 332 -----------------------