From: Gretchen Miller Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 11:09:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 333, 7/7/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 333, July 7, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: "Elizabethan Costuming" ordering info 18th C dress fastenings Opinions on Braveheart ISO: Info on The Queen's Needle ISO: Info on WWII Soviet uniforms Woad/Blue paint Whats the difference between straight and crossed lacing? ISO: Bone needles ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tristeen@aol.com Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 16:52:38 -0400 Subject: Elizabethan interests Hi!! My name is Emily Thompson and I have a book that is I think is something to share. I am a member of the Society for Creative Anachronism. SCA for short. I have an interest in Elizabethan clothing and recently picked up a book I thought many of you would like to know about. The book is called: ELIZABETHAN COSTUEMING FOR THE YEARS 1550-1580 It's by Janet Winter and Carolyn Savoy. While, unlike many books this one is written plainly and even humorously in places, I have found it to be very well thought out, researched and ir is arranged in a somewhat logical order. I've included all of the important data about this book and I highly reccommend it, it has been an indespensable companion in my business for over a year now. Publisher: Other Times Productions 361 60th St Oakland, CA 94618 (sorry, no phone #) ISBN 0-9630220-0-8 $15.00 Talk to you again later Tristeen@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 16:17:09 -0500 (EST) From: andrea ruth leed Subject: Re: 18th c. dress fastener many dresses had grommets up the back that were covered with thread matching the fabric of the dress. Just sew around the grommets, lacing the thread through the middle and putting it through the cloth on the outside. It is something of a tedious pain, but the results are beautiful. On Wed, 28 Jun 1995, Trystan L. Bass wrote: > Greetings all--- > > I'm making an 18th century ball gown & using the Pegree of Williamsburg > 1776 dress pattern (it seems to work for me ; - ) . It's for a historical > fantasy event in November. > > I'm changing the pattern so the closure is in the back instead of the > front/stomarcher side. I did this w/this pattern once before & used hook & > eye tape up the center back, but I'm not sure I want to do that again. > Instead, I want some kind of lacing (primarily so it has a little more > flexibility in fit). > > Now, my question is, how should I do the lacing? I could make little loops > out of cording & run the laces thru these loops (w/a big placket behind > it). Or I could use grommets -- this would give a more snug fit & smoother > look, which I prefer. But metal grommets down the back of this (hopefully) > lovely gown would look ugly. So what do I do? What else can I use to > reinforce the lacing holes, that is moderatly historically accurate and is > not _too_ difficult for a proficient beginner seamstress? > > I'm not anal about historical authenticity, so sources & citations aren't > necy. I just want something that looks kinda right with the costume & that > is not insanely difficult for me to do! > > Thanks so much!!! > ---Trystan (aka Constanza . . . ) > > fishcat@hooked.net @->->-- Trystan L. Bass --<-<-@ TrystBass@aol.com > http://www.hooked.net/users/fishcat/ > > > ============================= aleed@ezmail.ucs.indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: Tristeen@aol.com Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 17:26:05 -0400 Subject: Re:Dress Fastener Hello, No, grommets aren't strictly authentic. BUT< they did do a trick which is fairly close, they would cut small holes in the fabric and sew around the holes AND small round metal rings. These would be used like grommets. The holes would be neat because of the stitching and they would be reinforced because of the metal rings. They used this method during the Elizabethan era so I don't know why it wouldn't have been used in the 18th century. : ) Emily Tristeen@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Tristeen@aol.com Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 17:26:20 -0400 Subject: Braveheart Hello, Here's some of my veiws on Braveheart. : ) Makeup was popular during this time period, indeed it has been in fashion around the world since early Babylonia. This includes: eyeshawdow, eyeliner, mascara (of a sort), lipstick and rouge. So I didn't think the makeup was out of place. The blue warriors paint is also correct to a degree, I am not sure if it was a clan thing or what. In the scene where William Wallce makes his great speach Only his men were wearing face paint. Not the men of the other nobles. I have to agree that the dresses did look suspiciously clingy, although during that period a dress called a coutehardie was worn which was rather form-fitted. I do remember the pink dress you speak of and I'll let you in on a little secret, I have practically the same material the dress made of in my closet and it isn't anywhere near period authenticity. I don't know if white wedding dresses were popular before Queen Victoria or not but, I do know that as the bride and the future Queen, she could wear anything she wanted to. Including black or orange. (Yuk!) :) One last penny, I found the book that was released along whith the movie, at B Dalton booksellers. In it is both a forward and a epilogue by Randalph Wallace the writer of the movie/book, (I don't know which came first), and he does state that there isn't much known about the life and times of William McWallace, but he wrote the story as he likes to imagine it happened. He doesn't make any claims to period costume, customes, etc., and etc. Thanks for letting me put in my two cents worth, Emily Thompson Tristeen @aol.com ------------------------------ From: Tudorldy@aol.com Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 17:54:10 -0400 Subject: Queen's Needle Greetings. The recent listing of the new business, The Bonny Lass, has made me curious about another listing I found in the archives, The Queen's Needle. I was thrilled to death when I found it, as it sounded like just my sort of place. However, when I called the phone number listed (310 area code), the number was disconnected. Does anyone know what became of them? Is anyone formerly connected with them on this list? Please e-mail me directly. Many thanks! TudorLdy@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "Lassman, Linda" To: grm+@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: RE: 18th c. dress fastener Date: Thu, 29 Jun 95 16:03:00 PDT >>Now, my question is, how should I do the lacing? I could make >>little loops >>out of cording & run the laces thru these loops (w/a big placket >>behind >>it). Or I could use grommets -- this would give a more snug fit & >>smoother > >I think loops would not allow for a very tight closure - >they strike me as a very bad choice (but, suit yourself!) >Grommets are indeed wrong for the period - metal grommets >weren't around. The correct closure (besides the >fact that dresses DIDN'T close in the back) would be >to punch holes with an awl and sew around them, turning >them into round button holes (through which you put your >lacing). >Deb Baddorf baddorf@fnal.gov Actually, there are any number of Renaissance portraits from Italy (at least!) showing metal eyelets, so they were definitely around! I will, however, not state whether or not they're correct for the period under discussion, since I know very little about it. :-) If you don't like the look of grommets but are concerned about the strength of round buttonholes, have the best of both worlds--put in your grommets and then sew over them so they're hidden! - Linda Lassman Winnipeg, Manitoba Lassman@bldgdafoe.lan1.umanitoba.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 16:22:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Tracy Miller Subject: RE: 18th c. dress fastener On Thu, 29 Jun 1995, Deb wrote: > I think loops would not allow for a very tight closure - > they strike me as a very bad choice (but, suit yourself!) > Grommets are indeed wrong for the period - metal grommets > weren't around. The correct closure (besides the > fact that dresses DIDN'T close in the back) would be > to punch holes with an awl and sew around them, turning > them into round button holes (through which you put your > lacing). I think Janet Arnold's book on 16th c. costuming shows metal (2-piece) grommets used, but covered w/ thread. Tracy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 20:03:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Heather Rose Jones Subject: Re: Braveheart On Thu, 29 Jun 1995 Tristeen@aol.com wrote: > The blue warriors paint is also correct to a degree, I am not sure if it was > a clan thing or what. In the scene where William Wallce makes his great > speach Only his men were wearing face paint. Not the men of the other > nobles. I'm curious on what basis you believe this is "correct to a degree". Are there historical refernces to Wallace's men painting their faces blue? Heather Rose Jones ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 95 22:57:20 CDT From: bednarek@tidalwave.med.ge.com (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097) Subject: Re: 18th c. dress fastener :> From grm+@andrew.cmu.edu Thu Jun 29 16:30:59 1995 :> :> many dresses had grommets up the back that were covered with thread :> matching the fabric of the dress. Just sew around the grommets, lacing :> the thread through the middle and putting it through the cloth on the :> outside. It is something of a tedious pain, but the results are :> beautiful. :> Could another possibility be painting the gromets with a flat paint the same color as the fabric? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 00:28:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Stephen Lawrence Gibbs Subject: Re: WWII Soviet uniforms Hello, I am a history teacher looking to add to my collection of impressions that I can bring into the classroom. Can anyone help me find accurate information on WWII Soviet combat uniforms? I especially need reference materials and a source for patterns or original/reproduction uniform parts and gear. Feel free to contact me directly. Thank You! stepheng@tenet.edu Stephen Gibbs Churchill H.S. San Antonio, TX ------------------------------ From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 30 Jun 95 08:53:00 BST Subject: Dress closure I've done quite a lot of 16th century bodices/gowns, making holes in the relevant closure and buttonholing the hole - I've only once bothered with metal eyelets (as they are called ofer here) and they seemed more bother than they were worth. The buttonholing stops the hole fraying and otherwise the strength of the closure depends on the fabric you are using, and the stiffeners inside the bodice. Covering the metal takes more work than buttonholing the hole, otherwise metal gleams through! One effect I have found depends on whether I straight or cross-lace. Straight-lacing when using steel bones, tends to make the fabric ride up, there is much less tendancy to do so when cross-lacing. Anyone else found this - do you know what the period solution was? If you could sew through the bones when making the holes, that would stop the fabric riding up, but can you sew through whalebone? The only time I've seen it was in a museum case. You certainly can't through reeds. BTW On Queen Elizabeth's drawers, there's a Costume Society event in September on the Westminster finds, which I am planning to attend. I will let you know what is reported. I'm off to Kentwell for the 16th century event this evening for a week - and England is in the middle of a heat wave. Apparently temperatures in Wimbledon centre court (tennis for non-aficionados) reached 100 degrees yesterday! Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 07:14:36 +0500 From: artg@nchgr.nih.gov (Art Glatfelter) Subject: COSTUME: Braveheart I have not had the pleasure of seeing the movie under discus ion. But on the subject of velvet I would like to make one observation. A shop near where we lived dealt in high end fabrics, one of which was a silk on silk velvet. I saw the owner unroll a yard or so of fabric, then lay her ring roughly in the middle. By pinching the cloth between thumb and forefinger she was able to draw the fabric through the ring with little or no resistance. Upon personal examination I found it to be far more "synthetic" in appearance and drape than the lycra on the next table. I would be interested in knowing what was used for a ground in 13th cent. velvets, and would be surprised if it was cotton. Most statutes were concerned with adulteration, and I would speculate that making silk cloth with a cotton base would fall in that category. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 08:27:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Staff - Michigan Health Promotion Clearinghouse Subject: Re: Braveheart > I'm curious on what basis you believe this is "correct to a degree". Are > there historical refernces to Wallace's men painting their faces blue? > > Heather Rose Jones > No documentation, so I probably shouldn't even fan the fire, but I always heard, (before this movie came out) That they stripped naked & painted their whole bodies blue. I may be victim of a legend. Ellen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 10:09:10 -0400 (EDT) From: "Janice K. Pfaff" Subject: Braveheart/Woad The use of woad as facial paint is an an anachronism in Braveheart. The Picts painted their faces with woad, wore tattoos, and went naked into battle, but this was documented over 1000 years before William Wallace. Anachronistic or not, I did enjoy the movie! J.K. Pfaff jkpfaff@mailbox.syr.edu ------------------------------ From: Pam Rowe (Mrs. J. Pollard) Subject: Types of lacings Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 09:29:28 -0500 (CDT) Forwarded message: > From grm+@andrew.cmu.edu Fri Jun 30 08:31:18 1995 > From: Mrs C S Yeldham > Subject: Dress closure > One effect I have found depends on whether I straight or cross-lace. Please forgive me, fellow listmembers, but what is the difference between these two types of lacings. That is, how is each done? I probably should have learned about this somewhere along the way, but I seem to have missed it somehow. Are there other types of lacings? Please email; this is probably not of interest to many, as I suspect that I am only clueless. --<-{@ --<-{@ --<-{@ --<-{@ --<-{@ --<-{@ --<-{@ --<-{@ --<-{@ Pam Rowe (Rowanna in the SCA) | I speak for no one but myself!! prowe@msrcnavo.navy.mil | Located in soggy south Mississippi/Louisiana!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 07:46:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Lori Kishimoto Subject: Braveheart: Woad Warrior > > I'm curious on what basis you believe this is "correct to a degree". Are > > there historical refernces to Wallace's men painting their faces blue? > > > > Heather Rose Jones On Fri, 30 Jun 1995, Staff - Michigan Health Promotion Clearinghouse wrote: > > No documentation, so I probably shouldn't even fan the fire, but I always > heard, (before this movie came out) That they stripped naked & painted > their whole bodies blue. I may be victim of a legend. > > Ellen I think the "blue paint" is supposed to be woad, derived from a plant also used for dying. If the actors used the real stuff, they were "braver of heart" that we realize, because it was supposed to be particularly, uh..., "pungent". One theory was that they wore it in hunting and in battle because it covered the "scent" of fear. I am told that this practice came from the Picts. Lori ------------------------------ From: "Joe Cook" Subject: Bone needles Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 8:50:37 I am attempting to gather materials for a display of embroidery tools within historical period. What I would like to get a hold of are needles that could be considered historically correct such as bone needles. Any ideas where I could track down such items? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 12:24:08 +0500 From: artg@nchgr.nih.gov (Art Glatfelter) Subject: Re: Woad Warrior >> > I'm curious on what basis you believe this is "correct to a degree". Are >> > there historical refernces to Wallace's men painting their faces blue? >> > >> > Heather Rose Jones > >On Fri, 30 Jun 1995, Staff - Michigan Health Promotion Clearinghouse wrote: >> >> No documentation, so I probably shouldn't even fan the fire, but I always >> heard, (before this movie came out) That they stripped naked & painted >> their whole bodies blue. I may be victim of a legend. >> >> Ellen > >I think the "blue paint" is supposed to be woad, derived from a plant also >used for dying. If the actors used the real stuff, they were "braver of >heart" that we realize, because it was supposed to be particularly, uh..., >"pungent". One theory was that they wore it in hunting and in battle >because it covered the "scent" of fear. > >I am told that this practice came from the Picts. > >Lori The odor is not so inconvenient as the remarkable degree of colour fastness. One individual I know who experimented with woad was still bright blue four days later when we parted company, and that after several prolonged and vigorous attempts at removing the dye. It is a pleasant plant, I intend to put in a small plot of woad this July. ------------------------------ End of Volume 333 -----------------------