From: Gretchen Miller Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 19:13:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 337, 7/11/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 337, July 11, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: Hair and makeup styles Red dyes for linen Metal eyelet sources ISO: Info on dance pumps and gloves for mid 19th C America ISO: Historically correct costume info for "Fanny's First Play" Costume museums in Italy ISO: Info on 13th C French hairstyles Bias-cut hose experiences What is an escoffin? Questions and answer on Victorian hairstyling and hats ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 22:21:56 -0700 From: das3@ix.netcom.com (David Salzman ) Subject: hair and makeup As the others have said, in theatrical releases hair and makeup is very much influenced by contemporary styles. That is because the movie maker must sell his product. He has to make the stars look as appealing as possible to the modern audience. Hair is very much influenced in sublte ways by the current stlyes and makeup is always, always, contempoary. Even when the movie seems to be wonderfully costumed and very accurate, the costume designer cannot escape totally the impact of what is considered currently attractive. It takes a period of about 10 years after a movie is made for the viewer to detect the affect of the current mode. I know that all of us can "date" a historical movie by the hair-stlyes and makeup. Even costumes aid in telling when the movie was made. A costume designer may chose to emphasis certain details that will appeal to the modern audience. Choice of fabric is also telling. Hence Claudette Cobert in the moive CLEOPATRA in the 30s had gowns cut on the bias, while Liz Tayor wore stiffer materials that wore popular in the 60s. Lastly, the actresses in most historical movies are wearing contemporary underwear. The shape of a womans bust is very telling when you want to date a movie. Think 50s and the uplift bra. I have found in some movies, eg Age Of Innocence, the hair of the exras, not the stars, was much more accurate. So watch the background if you really want to get a feel for "being there". Thank you Antonia ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 02:05:12 -0500 (EST) From: andrea ruth leed Subject: Re: red dye for linen To the best of my knowledge, the brightest, most colorful red of the time came from cochineal (the exoskeloton of some tropical beetle or other) that was colorfast on both vegetable and animal (wool and silk) fibers. It was used in Turkey and the middle east a thousand years ago, if not more. Linen is a hard fabric to dye. The only other common red dye I know of is madder, which is a pain to use and usually results in a pinkish red color, unless one uses a month's salary to create a quadruple-strength dye solution. Drea On Wed, 5 Jul 1995 TheaG@aol.com wrote: > While having a rambling discussion the other day, the topic of dyeing linen > red came 'round. One participant voiced the opinion that a bright red dye > (such as we now have) was not possible with natural dyes and that when an > historic source refers to cloth being "red", the actual color was more what > we now would call brown. > > 1. Is there a natural dye that > a. produces a bright red > b. produces a bright red when applied to linen fabric > c. was available in Europe (Italy?) in the 16th century > d. was used in Europe (Italy?) in the 16th century > > 2. Would such a dye have been > a. used on linen fabric > b. colorfast (and to what degree) > > While I'm at it, would linen fabric have been used as the main outer fabric > for a gown or doublet, etc.? > > Thea > TheaG@aol.com > ============================= aleed@ezmail.ucs.indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: BJHILL@STTHOMAS.EDU Date: Thu, 06 Jul 1995 08:02:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Red dye Another red dye would be vermillion. I know of this to be a dye for body paint but also could be theoretically used for clothing. I believe it comes from China, and would have been available in Europe as early as the 14th C. I have seen references of it in North America as early as the mid 1700's. My dictionary describes it as "a bright red pigment consisting of mercuric sulfide; broadly: any of various red pigments or a variable color averaging a vivid reddish orange." If someone has an OED maybe they could shed more light on this dye for us? brian hill bjhill@stthomas.edu ------------------------------ From: "Cindy Abel" Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 08:10:45 CDT Subject: metal rings for stays,corsets, etc. I am making "a pair of bodies", i.e. 16th century style stays for a 24" tall lady doll I am making. I have discovered that some leftover jewerly jump rings(about 8mm) make good enforcers for eyelets. They aren't terribly thick and I've seen jump rings run at least as large as 20mm in craft stores. The stays in Janet Arnold's "Patterns of Fashion, 1550-1620" have metal rings sewn both around the inside and outside of the eyelets--the construction seems to be of a "everyday" pair of stays, not the ones made of luxury fabrics sometimes listed in royal account books. Perhaps jump rings would also be a solution to reinforce 18th eyelet holes as well. Even the small rings I used improved the shape of the hole and made it easier to draw a lace through then the "plain" eyelet holes I made for a 17th set of stays for a doll last year. Cindy Abel Health Sciences Library Creighton University 2500 California Plaza Omaha NE 68178-0400 Phone: 402-280-5144 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jul 95 15:32:28 -0600 From: telecom@fairfield.com (Jeffrey M. Smith) Subject: 1837-1847 dance outfit We are performing at the Iowa Susquecentennial in January for the Governor and special guests. We would like to have accurate costumes for our evening of singing and dancing. We read about a man's dance pump in the literature but haven't seen any examples. What does it look like? Where can we get it? Also, were gloves always used when dancing? Jeffrey M. Smith Telecom International Affinity Partnerships 806 North Fourth St. Fairfield, IA 52556 USA +515-472-7116 Fax +515-472-8464 Group discount programs, Telecommunications rates specialist. ------------------------------ Date: 03 Jul 95 14:45:15 EDT From: "Timothy P. Jeffryes" <74757.2766@compuserve.com> Subject: Fanny's First Play Hi: Westside Repertory Theatre in New York city is seeking costume information (preferably photos) for Shaw's "Fanny's First Play". Mr. Trotter, a well-known critic for the London Times (c. 1911), is a member of the new "Academic Committee" and wears a uniform like the "French Academy". Duvallet is a lieutenant in the French Navy. We are seeking information on both of these characters and what their costumes may historically look like. Both are circa 1911. The script describes Mr. Trotter's outfit as having a "cocked hat and a sword". Thanks for your response. Tim Jeffryes ------------------------------ From: dlxibm!Liz_Jones@SMTPGWY Date: Mon, 03 Jul 95 11:25:02 EST Subject: Mueums in Italy I lived in Italy for a year (Florence) and have been back half a dozen times or so since then. Unfortunately, I was not in the SCA when I lived there, and hence missed great opportunities that I now have to cram into vacations. Advice on the Uffizi : go BEFORE it opens (have a coffee in the piazza) to avoid INCREDIBLY long lines. The Vatican is not as bad, but still warrants an early visit. One museum that I did not know about until recently is in Prato (NE Italy?), and I believe it is a textile museum. I will look it up when I go home and continue this. It has examples of chemises, shirts and "bloomers" that are purported to be women's (like those shown by Vecellio on his prostitute "flip-up") circa mid 1500's. I would LOVE to get some literature and postcards from there if I can give you some money. Also, I have never gone to the Palazzo Ducale (of Sforza fame) in Milano, but have seen some portraits from there also. You can email me directly (don't try to "reply"!) at ljones@datalogix.com. Ciao, Damiana ------------------------------ From: MUISE Amanda Subject: Re: Hair - up and/or covered Date: Wed, 05 Jul 95 10:09:00 PDT Hi! I've been in the SCA for about 2 years as a 13th cent French noble woman. Could you please e-mail me with more information on exactly HOW you put up your hair? I agree with your views about hair being covered or up. Amuise@shl.com ---------- >From: grm+ >To: Costumers; GILLIAN RICHARDS (02) 716 3712 >Subject: Re: Hair - up and/or covered >Date: Wednesday, July 05, 1995 8:27AM > > Reply to: RE>Hair - up and/or covered C19th > >That is one of my pet peeves. I have been in the SCA for 15 years and as a >16th cent Elizabethan noble woman, my hair is always up in a coif or >escoffion. I have tried for years to persuade others that a) wearing your >hair up is the more period way to wear it, and b) at camping events it stays >much cleaner and neater that way. I also hate it in movies when the clothes >aren't to far off period but the hair is flying every which way. Drives me >crazy. Oh well, maybe if more like minded folk get on the band wagon we can >make a change here. > >-------------------------------------- >Date: 7/5/95 0:46 >To: Karen Lovejoy >From: GILLIAN RICHARDS (02) 716 3712 >Greetings, > >I have recently been reading a lot of US 19C frontier Women's Autobiographies > >(and watching the Wild West series on our Government channel) and one thing >that >struck me was the difference in hairstyles between what was written/shown as >documentary and ANYTHING done as fiction/historical fiction/movie/series. > >THe "genuine" sources all stated that once a girl started wearing corsets and > >her dress was full-length, then her hair was up anywhere in public, and at >the >very least in plaits or otherwise confined at other times (like when at home >with the family - and even then only while doing extremely hard work or in >very >isolated areas) > >I cannot recall any movie or series where at least one of the "women's" hair >was >loose around her shoulders or back in a normal situation (like doing the >shopping or visiting neighbours). Would this not be considered extremely >uncouth? > >As a long-hair myself, my hair only comes out at exceptional parties - and >even >then it's held back with combs. It would get far too grubby otherwise, nit to > >mention knotted. > >(I also wonder if my messages are getting on - I certainly get them back, but >I >have never seen a reply to any of them - we have a weird server here and >there >are suspicions that it may be being "censored" - could someone just privately > >e-mail me to let me know they've seen this? sorry to let my insecurities get >in >the way). > >Yours > >Gillian > > > > ------------------------------ From: dlxibm!Liz_Jones@SMTPGWY Date: Wed, 05 Jul 95 11:51:43 EST Subject: bias-cut hose Regarding the museum of London bias-cut examples I have both seen and made the hose diagrammed therein. On my husband, they work fairly well, although on my example I had to fiddle with the cut of the heel and toe a bit. Also, we both have very thick ankles and wide feet, which make it necessary for the ankle area to be a bit larger than for the average person. This gives a bit of bagginess, but nothing that bad. All in all, I was very pleased with the fit. I did a mockup out of thin poly-cotton, and the second rendition out of wool satteen/satin (?). I also brought them up to doublet level, although it is hard to see where the originals might have ended. I am very interested in this subject, especially about Italian examples that do not have any "triangle inserts" on either side of the arch. Also, I have experimented with this design and diagrams from Kohler on the buttocks piecing. Unfortunately, what I derived was baggy-butt syndrome: in order to allow someone to sit down, the seat would back when standing. Obviously the Italian ones did not do this, although I have seen "meaner" peasant examples in Bruegel, etc. that obviously did not fit as well. There are at least two articles on similar hose in various issues of Costume magazine. Any info on the butt/Italian issues would be Greatly Appreciated. Regards, Damiana/Liz Jones ljones@datalogix.com ------------------------------ From: AWILSON.abrscbr@anca.erin.gov.au (AWILSON) Subject: Re: Hair - up and/or covered Date: Thu, 06 Jul 95 09:28 Karen wrote "... as a 16th cent Elizabethan noble woman, my hair is always up in a coif or escoffion. " I haven't run across the word "escoffion" before. What is it please?? Thanks Annette Wilson email - awilson.abrscbr@anca.erin.gov.au ------------------------------ From: DCROSS@bentley.edu Date: Thu, 06 Jul 1995 11:01:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: red dye for linen >While having a rambling discussion the other day, the topic of dyeing linen >red came 'round. One participant voiced the opinion that a bright red dye >(such as we now have) was not possible with natural dyes and that when an >historic source refers to cloth being "red", the actual color was more what >we now would call brown. >1. Is there a natural dye that >a. produces a bright red YES! Kermes (also called grain), St. John's Blood (Polish Cochineal), Lac, Brazil, Madder, Lady's Bedstraw. Cochineal available today is the New World cousin of Kermes and has similar, albeit stronger, dye constituents. >b. produces a bright red when applied to linen fabric No. Linen does not take dye well. Extant recipes for green and black exist, but that's about it. You must torture the fabric (layer it with the slimey, pastey dye and bury it in a dung heap for a while!) in order for it to take the dye. Linen does dye nicely with woad/indigo. >c. was available in Europe (Italy?) in the 16th century >d. was used in Europe (Italy?) in the 16th century Yes and Yes. Look at the Plictho of Gianventura Rossetti, ed. by Edlestein and Borghetti, MIT Press 1969. He collected the secrets of the Italian guild dyers and published them in 1548. >2. Would such a dye have been >a. used on linen fabric Maybe (I have not found absolute proof either way, but certainly not to achieve a bright red.) >b. colorfast (and to what degree) None of the above dyestuffs were as colorfast as some modern chemical dyes, but madder was pretty close. The insects: kermes, St. John's blood, lac, can be rather fast. Brazil is not very lightfast (take a look at the back of tapestries if you ever get the chance-the brazil red has faded on the sunny side to a pinkish tan. The yellows also faded and left the tapistry looking blue dominant when some of the blue was originally green!). Most seem to be fast to washing. Modern detergents will change the color of the insect dyes to a purpler shade. Setting vith salt and or vinegar is often helpful (and indicated in some recipes). >While I'm at it, would linen fabric have been used as the main outer fabric for a gown or doublet, etc.? Probably not. I have never seen an extant doublet with linen as the outer fabric. But boy, are they almost all lined with the stuff! Since little trace of the masses are left, though, I can't begin to assume they never used linen as overgarments. The upper classes and nobility went for the silk, leather, and wool. >Thea -Elayne Courtenay (EK Dyeing Laurel) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 09:13:41 -0600 (MDT) From: None Of Your Business Subject: Re: Hair - up and/or covered On 5 Jul 1995, Karen Lovejoy wrote: > Reply to: RE>Hair - up and/or covered C19th > > That is one of my pet peeves. I have been in the SCA for 15 years and as a > 16th cent Elizabethan noble woman, my hair is always up in a coif or > escoffion. I have tried for years to persuade others that a) wearing your > hair up is the more period way to wear it, and b) at camping events it stays > much cleaner and neater that way. I also hate it in movies when the clothes > aren't to far off period but the hair is flying every which way. Drives me > crazy. Oh well, maybe if more like minded folk get on the band wagon we can > make a change here. First of all darling, you might want to try them (longhairs) one at a time, I have had great results with that method here. Also keep in mind the f word (fun) make it seem fun and people will respond. One last point, there are just enough examples in period sources of hair down (mostly for artistic reasons that there will always be those who would rather display thier hair and feel pretty that way. :> Keep the faith > > -------------------------------------- > Date: 7/5/95 0:46 > To: Karen Lovejoy > From: GILLIAN RICHARDS (02) 716 3712 > Greetings, > > I have recently been reading a lot of US 19C frontier Women's Autobiographies > > (and watching the Wild West series on our Government channel) and one thing > that > struck me was the difference in hairstyles between what was written/shown as > documentary and ANYTHING done as fiction/historical fiction/movie/series. > > THe "genuine" sources all stated that once a girl started wearing corsets and > > her dress was full-length, then her hair was up anywhere in public, and at > the > very least in plaits or otherwise confined at other times (like when at home > with the family - and even then only while doing extremely hard work or in > very > isolated areas) > > I cannot recall any movie or series where at least one of the "women's" hair > was > loose around her shoulders or back in a normal situation (like doing the > shopping or visiting neighbours). Would this not be considered extremely > uncouth? > > As a long-hair myself, my hair only comes out at exceptional parties - and > even > then it's held back with combs. It would get far too grubby otherwise, nit to > > mention knotted. > > (I also wonder if my messages are getting on - I certainly get them back, but > I > have never seen a reply to any of them - we have a weird server here and > there > are suspicions that it may be being "censored" - could someone just privately > > e-mail me to let me know they've seen this? sorry to let my insecurities get > in > the way). > > Yours > > Gillian > > > > ------------------------------ From: DCROSS@bentley.edu Date: Thu, 06 Jul 1995 11:15:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Red dye Another red dye would be vermillion. I know of this to be a dye for body paint but also could be theoretically used for clothing. I believe it comes from China, and would have been available in Europe as early as the 14th C. I have seen references of it in North America as early as the mid 1700's. My dictionary describes it as "a bright red pigment consisting of mercuric sulfide; broadly: any of various red pigments or a variable color averaging a vivid reddish orange." If someone has an OED maybe they could shed more light on this dye for us? brian hill bjhill@stthomas.edu Elayne here again- As far as I have seen in period dyers manuals and sources (pre-1600), vermillion is not used as a dye. It is a pigment, but probably won't bind to mordant and fabric. I've not tried it, because there hasn't been a recipe calling for it. As a modern, I'd not want to try it-too complicated to get rid of the toxic waste (dyebath)! Anyone fascinated by color in the middle ages and Renassance going to Pennsic should check out their class schedules. I'm putting together a presentation on color in painting vs. colors achieved by dyes on textiles. There are alot of differences in what colors they could paint and what colors they could wear! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jul 95 09:20:05 PST From: "Gail DeCamp" Subject: Victorian hairstyles? The recent thread on hairstyles has sparked a question for me, namely, how do you achieve a proper victorian hairstyle? I see a lot of people stuffing their hair in a snood--and I can understand why, because it's easy and if you've been in the SCA or whatnot you probably already own one. But I don't think the hair-in-snood look was representative of hairstyles of the time. I've been looking at period photographs, fashion plates, et cetera to try and find a hair arrangement shown clearly enough that I could try it. Unfortunately, period photos never show the back of a woman's head--only the front! The fashion plates aren't much better; typically the best you get is a 3/4 view. With that struggle in mind, I have these questions: a) When was it proper for a victorian lady to wear a hat/bonnet? b) When was it proper for a victorian lady to wear neither hat nor bonnet? (I see pictures of women without hats. Since I've heard that women always went out with hats/bonnets on, that implies that the woman in question left her house with a hat or bonnet, got to the photographer's studio, and removed it--in which case I'm very impressed by their hairdressing skills, since whenever I take off a hat I have a raging case of "hat hair" and don't care to be photographed.) c) How did they dress their hair to go under a hat? d) How did they dress their hair to go hatless? If you can point me to any references, I'd be very grateful. Thanks. Gail DeCamp decampg@smtplink.ngc.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 95 10:27:26 PDT From: "SNORTON.US.ORACLE.COM" Subject: Victorian hairstyles Gail, What specific years interest you? The Victorian era covers a long time and hair styles changed. The side ringlets of the 1850s look very different from soft upsweep of the 1890s. The 1850s - 1860s are very easy to do if you have long hair that takes a curl easily with electric curlers. Part your hair in the center. Set the hair on each side in electric curlers that are placed vertically (rather than the usual horozontal). Use a lot of mouse. Leave the curlers in for awhile to let the curl really set. Take all of the rest of your hair and pull it into a ponytail at the top of your head. Braid the ponytail then wind it around in a small braided topnot. Secure with a long pin. Remove the curlers slowly and shape the curl around your finger. When you wear a bonnet, the long side curls will be pushed forward and frame your face. If you go indoors and remove the bonnet the side curls will fall straight down. The braided topnot will be smooth and tidy and not "mussed" by your bonnet. This style also works for evening: add a spray of flowers across the top of your head (similiar to a headband). The bridal sections of fabric stores carry small floral sprays that work well; they can be painted to match the colour of your ballgown. If you're interested in other decades, we can get into that as well. Sally Norton snorton@US.oracle.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jul 95 11:28:37 PST From: "Lynn Meyer" Subject: Re: Red dyes Kermes (the Old World insect producing a vivid red dye) was grown (if that's the right word) in medieval Spain, as well as Turkey... Dunno how widely available it was in Europe overall. -- Halima de la Lucha lynn_meyer@intuit.com ------------------------------ From: Edward Wright Date: Thu, 6 Jul 95 11:32:36 TZ Subject: Re: red dye for linen | To the best of my knowledge, the brightest, most colorful red of the time | came from cochineal (the exoskeloton of some tropical beetle or other) | that was colorfast on both vegetable and animal (wool and silk) fibers. | It was used in Turkey and the middle east a thousand years ago, if not | more. Cochineal comes from the Coccus cacti larva, which is native to Mexico. It was used by the natives prior to 1518 and imported by the Spanish after that. The Spanish did not understand where cochineal came from, however, thinking that its source was a type of berry. Prior to the discovery of cochineal, the chief source of red dye was the Coccus ilicus larva, commonly called kermes, which feeds on oaks in Southern Europe. I suspect that it was probably Coccus ilicus that the Turks were using. I would also assume, as a result of this, that red cloth was more common and less expensive in Southern Europe than in the north, where it would have to be imported. | Linen is a hard fabric to dye. Linen and cotton are primarily cellulose, which takes natural dyes less easily than animal protein (such as wool, fur, and silk). The only other common red dye I | know of is madder, which is a pain to use and usually results in a | pinkish red color, unless one uses a month's salary to create a | quadruple-strength dye solution. There was also an English recipe for dyeing "red as a rose" with a mixture of galls, alum, greenwood (Genista tinctoria), and brasil. I don't know what results it would give with linen, which the English would be unlikely to be dyeing anyway. | On Wed, 5 Jul 1995 TheaG@aol.com wrote: | > While I'm at it, would linen fabric have been used as the main outer fabric | > for a gown or doublet, etc.? Hm. Well, I know that canvas (heavy linen) was for theatrical doublets, and for fencing doublets, too, I believe. I can't think of any other examples. I have seen some portraits of Italian gowns with an outer layer of white, which might be linen, but for colored fabric, linen would probably not be the material of choice. ------------------------------ End of Volume 337 -----------------------