From: Gretchen Miller Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 18:34:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 341, 7/13/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 341, July 13, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: On Kilts Question: Civil War era dyes Sources of metal rings Timefarer Footwear address Some recommended books ISO: Info on cleaning silk knitted gloves Buttoning which side? ISO: market for handwoven Lithuanian fabrics MdM Pompedour dress Period reds Lucet supplier ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Cpt11Miss@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 09:10:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Looking for More Kilt Res... Dear Carol and whoever else maybe interested!: In response to the 'medieval kilt' and lack of reference may be due to the fact that in Scotland and Ireland, the kilt is still the belted plaid until about 1780! The transition of the kilt occurs as follows: 17th-19th c. Belted Plaid Felleadh-mor; 18th-19thc. Felleadh-beag consisting of 4 yards draw-stringed or with keepers being box or knife pleated(c. 1780); late 18thc-early 19thc. 4 yard box, knife or varient pleated, mid to late 19th c 5-6 yd box or knife pleated, and of course the military barrel or regimental box pleating. The man to contact for numerous sources is reknown kilt historian Bob Martin, 11 Benson Road, Travelers Rest, SC 29690 803-834-3355. He will answer any questions and back it up with numerous sources! Hope it helped! Karen Chartrand, owner The Bonnie Lass Co. (Historical Highland Dress) 314-463-1122 ------------------------------ From: VICKI@lib.uttyl.edu Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 11:32:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: effect of time on dyes I have seen two homespun dresses of the Civil War time period, one of linen and one of cotton, which apparently use similar dyes, probably also home produced. Both are small plaids, both use an off-white, probably undyed fiber, a "country" blue similar to faded blue jeans color (probably indigo), and the third color is currently a mustard brown with a rusty tinge. In other words a yellowy-orangey-brown. I have not been able to touch the dresses to look at seams or to see the undersides which presumably have seen less light. My question is----is this butternut? another dye? has this color changed over time/light/washing? What was it originally? Does anyone out there have any experience with garments of the same period using the same colors? I would appreciate any input. By the way, the linen dress is at Cragfont, near Gallatin, Tennessee. The cotton dress is at the Alabama State Archives in Montgomery. I have not talked with the curators at either place, but I will. I just thought that I'd start with the amazing knowledge on this list first. Vicki Betts vicki@lib.uttyl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jul 95 10:33:07 PST From: "Deena Monchick" Subject: Re: metal rings Actually, I'd suggest that you catch up with someone locally who makes chainmail if you can. Most SCA armorers have the necessary stuff. Have them make chainmail links from brass wire. This is the easy part of making chainmail and it will probably be less expensive than tackle shop rings. Deena ______________________________ Reply Separator Subject: metal rings Author: dawn@babel.DIALix.oz.au (Dawn Elson) at SMTPLINK Date: 7/5/95 4:57 PM For those peaple talking about reinforced eyelets. The best source of rings that I have found-yes I have tried this, is fishing tackle shops. The critters are called "solid brass rings" and come in at least two sizes and several colours. There is NO problem with strength here. These also work brilliantly for the front closure rings on early Italian renaissance gowns. > Now I >need to find some type of ring -- maybe a very narrow washer? Or a very >strong jump ring? Prob. whichever I can find. Dawn -- -------------------------------+------------------------------------- Dawn Elson | dawn@babel.dialix.oz.au -------------------------------+------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 1995 15:15:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Library - Vineland Research Station Subject: Timefarer Footwear (again, just in case0 Melanie asked me to supply the "Timefarer" address. I believe someone else already gave it, but here it is again for those of you who are too fast on the draw with the "delete" key: Timefarer Footwear Telephone: 0456 486696 Shoemakers, Gorthleck, Inverness IV1 2YS Scotland U.K. My husband inquired about price for WWI footwear - the 1916 boot was 165 Sterling and the officers trench boot was 275 sterling. Judging from their brochure, their products appear excellent. This may be a premature announcement, but for those of you who are into 1812 or the Regency period, a Canadian shoemaker is supposed to be making a copy of working class women's shoes from a Parks Canada original. If anyone else is interested, I'll get his address. Hey, I'm salivating! Sheridan Alder library@onrsvi.agr.ca ------------------------------ From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Tue, 11 Jul 95 15:34:53 EST Subject: Gloves & Swatches Here are two books that may be of interest to people on this list. I think one has been cited before, but it is especially for bjhill who asked about Barbara Johnson's swatch album. Barbara Johnson's Album of Fashion & Fabrics ed. by Natalie Rothstein Thames & Hudson, London 1987 no ISBN # It was $75 when I bought it some years ago. May be more so now. Contains 121 samples of fabric from 1746 to 1823 (!) Beautifully photographed so you can almost feel the cloth. Has notes on what type of fabric, how much it cost, how many yards she got, etc. A real treasure trove and worth every penny. The other is "Make Your Own Gloves" by Gwen Emlyn-Jones Scribners, NY, 1974 ISBN-0-684-14105-1 DOn't even know if it's in print. Very good book covering such topics as - History - Leathers - Tools & Materials - Buttoneed Gloves - Lined Gloves - Working with Fur - Care of Gloves - Books & Suppliers - Patterns along with many chapters on how to make gloves. Worthwhile if you are contemplating making your own. Now a query. I know we discussed the topic of de-staining silk a while ago and I saved the postings. I recently acquired a pair of antique white knit silk hose. I am in the process of mending them. They are stained with what looks like rust -- it is sort of yellowish or brownish. Are the methods we discussed on how to de-stain and wash silk *fabric* valid for woven silk? Thanks in advance for your suggestions. Kathleen kathleen@anstec ***************************************************************************** Nothing arouses suspicion quicker than genuine, all-round proficiency. - Francis Crawford of Lymond ***************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:48:20 -0400 (EDT) From: John Sek Subject: Men and Women's button holes While salvaging War of 1812 uniforms by turning them inside out (a practice that was used by the British army during that period as well) my wife notice that the button holes will of course end up on the opposite side. As we know in today's fashions, men's and women's button holes are on opposite sides to each others. The question my wife Jane has asked, when did this (can we call it a tradition?) started and why? Of course the next question, with regards to the uniforms, is it historical correct to change the button holes to the "proper" side of these uniforms or would they have been left alone? And could this be the reason why women's button's are on the opposite side to men's, since the women wore the men's cast-off uniforms? Jane was working overtime, so of course she had one more question. The term "turn coat" usually refers to a traitor or someone changing sides. Is there a link here as well, since as Jane has put it, she has turned over a lot of coats (uniforms) lately. Regards, *********************************************************************** John Sek,C.E.T.,C.S.T. jsek@freenet.niagara.com 222 Emerick Avenue telephone: 1-905-871-7449 Fort Erie, ON, CANADA L2A 2W5 fax/modem: 1-905-871-0696 ------------------------------ From: ccary@tiara.wpd.sgi.com (Christina Cary) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:33:31 -0700 Subject: Costume: Baltic Fabric? Hi Costume List, I just came back from a visit to Lithuania, and while I was there, I met a lady who does the traditional weaving used for the national costumes. The market for such fabric has been shrinking but she has kept on weaving, with the result that she has a stockpile of fabric in her apartment but a shrinking market. I was wondering if anyone on this list either is interested in buying this traditional fabric, or knows of a group (such as a Baltic Dance Group) that woudl be interested. She can also weave to order, of course. Emilja weaves various weights of fabric in various traditional designs, all geometric as far as I could see. She makes tightly woven pure white linen jacquard, the heavy black-background colorful fabric used for the big pleated skirts, and the colorful striped fabric that is used to make the traditional vest. I believe she uses natural fibers exclusively, except for some rayon for accent. Linen predominates. I'm sorry, I don't have the faintest idea what this fabric would cost. I can find out, of course. I'd appreciate any suggestions on how to find a market for Emilja's work. Thank you very much! Christina -- First name: Christina Last name: Cary E-mail address: ccary@tiara.wpd.sgi.com _______________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jul 95 19:12:10 PDT From: Allan Terry Subject: Madame Pompadour dress Sharon, Yes, if the dress is "very heavy and sturdy" and has traces of modern makeup on it, it is probably a theatrical costume. Is it made out of upholstery brocade? Upholstery brocade is very popular for costumes because it often has historic-looking fabric designs, but it is usually heavier than dress fabric. I assume that by "Madame Pompadour" you mean an 18th-century style. However, the Victorians imitated 18th-century styles in their own manner and the dress could be Victorian inspired; I can't tell from your description. In any case, the undergarments you need are a chemise (a period slip), with a neckline similar to the dress's but a bit lower; a corset, which you correctly assumed must be the right shape for the bodice; probably a hoop to hold the skirt out, which has to be the right shape for the skirt; and a petticoat that will cover the hoop ridges (unless one was included with the dress). I do not agree with the theory that drawers were not worn in the 18th century; they certainly were in the 19th. In any case most modern women prefer to wear something and modern underwear will not work because this is the bottom layer and the corset; etc. traps the waistband so you cannot take the underwear down. What I am getting at is you need a pair of drawers with an open inner seam. A modern corset will not work for Victorian styles and even less for 18th-century ones. Norah Waugh's book _Corsets and Crinolines_, published in New York by Theatre Arts Books and recently reprinted, has lots of information on, and patterns for, 18th- and 19th-century corsets and hoops. Dorothy Burnham's book _Cut My Cote_, published in Toronto by the Royal Ontario Musuem in 1973, has a number of chemise patterns. You can buy these books, also sized patterns (which in some cases appear to be derived from these books) from reenactment suppliers. The two biggest are Amazon Drygoods 2218 East 11th St. Davenport, IA 52803 (319) 322-6800 and Raiments PO Box 93095 Pasadena, CA 91109 (818) 797-2723 I think the Amazon pattern catalog is $7, the book/general catalog $3, and the shoe catalog $3. The Raiments catalog is $5. Both companies also sell some ready-made and custom-made clothes. Hope this helps. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ From: cpecourt@mhv.net Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 23:31:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Red Linnen Hello I hav esome red linnen (sp? *blush*) that I got so cheap that it would have been a crime to pass it up, even if it is BRIGHT red. Anyone know of a way to mute its tone?? I cannot wear a dress that red to an sca event..no no no :-) Thanks Chantal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 23:43:43 -0400 (EDT) From: "Katherine L. Rodman" Subject: Re: Madame Pompadour dress Fran: I agree with your description of period undergarments, a brief look in my "History of Underclothes" by C. Willett and Phillis Cunnington confirmed all you wrote. However, there are no references to these "underpants" you describe. So I went looking in "Corsets and Crinolines", again no such reference. Is there a more in depth book you could recommend? I have only found one reference to women's underpants in the above mentioned "History of Underclothes" found in Samuel Pepys' diary "I am ashamed to think what a course I did take by lying to see whether did wear drawers today as she did use to, and other things to raise my suspicions of her". I'm curious to see if any one has any other references. Kat afn25136@freenet.ufl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 23:00:24 -0500 (EST) From: dbrowne Subject: Re: Lucet I have not given up hope on finding my information on Lucet cord and sending it out to those of you who requested it, I still have your addressess. Last weekend I found someone who sells lucet made of various hardwoods, they seem to be well finished and are of a good size to fit the hand. He will mail order them and send instructions. Rainbow Pegasas Kathy Shaw 624 Osage Valparaiso, IN 46383 1-219-759-2601 I will list woods and prices: Maple-6$&7$, Oak-7$&8$, Walnut-8$&9$, Amaranth-7$&8$, Koa-9$&10$, Teal-8$&9$, Vermillian-7$&8$, Zebra-8$&9$, Rose wood-9$&10$. I thought this might help those of you on the eternail search for lacing:). Katrinn Kathy B ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jul 95 23:43:52 CDT From: bednarek@tidalwave.med.ge.com (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971 ~BHOSVWZ#097) Subject: Re: Men and Women's button holes :> From: John Sek :> Subject: Men and Women's button holes :> :> While salvaging War of 1812 uniforms by turning them inside out (a :> practice that was used by the British army during that period as well) my :> wife notice that the button holes will of course end up on the opposite :> side. As we know in today's fashions, men's and women's button holes are :> on opposite sides to each others. The question my wife Jane has asked, :> when did this (can we call it a tradition?) started and why? :> Date wise i cannot give you anything on this however it was explained to me several time was why. The more afluent females usually had chamber maids who dressed them. It was easier for them to be buttoned up with the buttons on the left side when they were facing them compared to a male dressing himself with the button hole on the right side. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 22:45:33 -0700 From: das3@ix.netcom.com (David Salzman ) Subject: Re: Men and Women's button holes .After.reading.the.post.on.mens.and.womans.button.holes.I.went.and hung one of my husbands shirts next to one of mine and buttoned and unbuttoned each. I do admit, I found it easier to unbutton the womans shirt. However, the more I praticed, the easier it became to work on the mans shirt. I, too, have heard that womens shirts unbutton right over left because women had ladies maids to dress them. I, however, perfer a different theory I have read. Men have coats that close so that they can place their right hand, their sword hand, inside their coat and keep it warm. It seems that no one likes to have a cold stiff sword hand. Bad for survival, you know. Speaking of survival, woman have shirts that flap so that the left breast is more readily exposed. This facilitates nursing on the left side. You see, any woman who has nursed an ifant will tell you that the babe gets placed more often on the left breast than on the right. This leave the right hand free. Good for survival. This is just a theory, but it makes sense to me and I like it. No offense intended to my southpaw friends. Antonia ------------------------------ From: mholland@on-ramp.ior.com Date: Tue, 11 Jul 95 23:37 PDT Subject: Re: Madame Pompadour dress >Sharon, > >Yes, if the dress is "very heavy and sturdy" and has traces of modern makeup >on it, it is probably a theatrical costume. Is it made out of upholstery >brocade? Upholstery brocade is very popular for costumes because it often >has historic-looking fabric designs, but it is usually heavier than dress >fabric. > >I assume that by "Madame Pompadour" you mean an 18th-century style. >However, the Victorians imitated 18th-century styles in their own manner and >the dress could be Victorian inspired; I can't tell from your description. > >In any case, the undergarments you need are a chemise (a period slip), with >a neckline similar to the dress's but a bit lower; a corset, which you >correctly assumed must be the right shape for the bodice; probably a hoop to >hold the skirt out, which has to be the right shape for the skirt; and a >petticoat that will cover the hoop ridges (unless one was included with the >dress). I do not agree with the theory that drawers were not worn in the >18th century; they certainly were in the 19th. In any case most modern >women prefer to wear something and modern underwear will not work because >this is the bottom layer and the corset; etc. traps the waistband so you >cannot take the underwear down. What I am getting at is you need a pair of >drawers with an open inner seam. > >A modern corset will not work for Victorian styles and even less for >18th-century ones. Norah Waugh's book _Corsets and Crinolines_, published >in New York by Theatre Arts Books and recently reprinted, has lots of >information on, and patterns for, 18th- and 19th-century corsets and hoops. >Dorothy Burnham's book _Cut My Cote_, published in Toronto by the Royal >Ontario Musuem in 1973, has a number of chemise patterns. You can buy these >books, also sized patterns (which in some cases appear to be derived from >these books) from reenactment suppliers. The two biggest are > >Amazon Drygoods >2218 East 11th St. >Davenport, IA 52803 >(319) 322-6800 > > and > >Raiments >PO Box 93095 >Pasadena, CA 91109 >(818) 797-2723 > >I think the Amazon pattern catalog is $7, the book/general catalog $3, and >the shoe catalog $3. The Raiments catalog is $5. Both companies also sell >some ready-made and custom-made clothes. > >Hope this helps. > >Fran Grimble Dear Fran: Thanks a million for your in-depth insight into this situation. The knowledge that I have seen on this list since I signed on is very impressive to me. I admire all of the contributors to the h-costume list. I am sorry that I didn't do a better job of describing the dress so that you could afix the correct era to it. I will give a few more details here. I just wanted to also thank you for warning me about the waistband/undergarment situation - I am not sure I would have thought about it until it was too late! Boy, would I have been embarrassed! You were right about the upholstery brocade. Now that you bring it up, I am sure that is what it must be. As far as the hoop is concerned, it did come with the dress and it is not round. it is oval-shaped. It appears that it is to be worn so that it holds the dress out to the sides and not the front and back. There is a tremendous lot of fabric in the skirt and it does extend quite a ways to the side. The back is full. It comes up to the neck and is the same brocade fabric. The neckline is square. The neckline does a slow roll-off at the shoulder and becomes very wide-set. It goes straight down to the (whatever-you-call-it) that serves as the straight-across part of the neckline. It is extremely low (my husband LOVES it!) and comes to the center of the bust. The way it is now, without the proper undergarment, is that the bust tends to "pooch out" over the top of the neckline. The areola is slightly visible and the dress is tight. It reminds me of the dress Glenn Close wore in the movie, Dangerous Liaisons. I have been told that there is a dress something like it in a new movie called, "The Many Wifes of King Henry VIII", but I have not seen that movie yet. Although I had no intention of becoming a historical costume fan, this is very intriguing. I just feel lucky that there are all of you to assist and encourage. I know that it really isn't a real period dress, but you have all been wonderful anyway. Thanks, Sharon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 15:02:06 +1000 From: ser@adminserver.canberra.edu.au (Sarah Randles) Subject: Re: H-Costume Digest, Volume 336, 7/11/95 >From: TheaG@aol.com > One participant voiced the opinion that a bright >red dye (such as we now have) was not possible with natural dyes and >that when an historic source refers to cloth being "red", the actual >color was more what we now would call brown. I do not know much about dyes or dying, but I am currently looking at the Lady with Unicorn tapestry pictured on my Medieval Woman's Calendar. It shows several shades of bright red, and from my memory of the original tapestry, the colours have not been distorted significantly in this reproduction. The extant tapestries and other textiles of the middle ages are excellent sources for the colours which were available in textiles. If the colour is in a tapestry, then it had to be obtainable by dying. The same does not necessarily hold true for portraits and illuminated manuscripts. The argument that it was not possible to achieve a true red (or pink, or purple, or black) is specious, as these extant textiles prove, although it may be harder to achieve bright colours on vegetable fibres. Sarah **************************************************************************** ********************************************** Sarah Randles ser@adminserver.canberra.edu.au Research Office Phone: (06) 201 2955 University of Canberra Fax: (06) 201 5381/5999 ------------------------------ End of Volume 341 -----------------------