From: Gretchen Miller Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 17:56:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H-Costume Digest, Volume 343, 7/17/95 The Historic Costume List Digest, Volume 343, July 17, 1995 Send items for the list to h-costume@andrew.cmu.edu (or reply to this message). Send subscription/deletion requests and inquiries to h-costume-request@andrew.cmu.edu Enjoy! ------------------------------ Topics: Formal gloves San Jose Historic Museum costume shop Dying in the washing machine warning History of drawers English Civil War pattern sources Buttoning on which side ISO: Info on period underwear ISO: Fishman's address ISO: Info on Satin history ISO: Info on costume CD-ROMs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Jul 1995 14:04:30 U From: "Carole Newson-Smith" Subject: Re: Formal Gloves Reply to: RE>Formal Gloves Alison Kondo wrote: : the girls at proms in the 1950's & 60's had to turn back their gloves :the same way when they snuck out for a smoke, to avoid nicotine :stains on the white gloves. (I don't smoke, so I don't know how :much this would really stain...). Well, I'm probably showing my age, but white kid gloves were proper formal wear for ladies and young girls as late as the mid 1960's in the deep South (Georgia, in my case). The gloves had to be handled gently. Kidskin is thin, and you had to put the gloves on carefully so as not to stretch the leather. The white ones were easily discolored by food, lipstick, or anything greasy. It was possible to get the gloves dry cleaned if you lived in a city that had decent cleaners (I was not in this position.), but the gloves never looked quite the same afterward. I had a pair of the long white gloves that went above the elbow for formal dinners and dances. It was a lot less work to remove just your hand from the glove for dining than it was to take the entire glove off. Gloves that didn't reach above the elbow didn't have a slit at the wrist for that purpose, so it seemed obvious that shorter gloves were to be removed entirely at a meal. Carole Newson-Smith SCA: Cordelia Toser ------------------------------ From: dianeg@orion.csd.sgi.com (Diane Grason) Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 14:46:47 -0700 Subject: Re: San Jose Historic Museum Tours On Jul 12, 1:39pm, Diane Barlow Close wrote: > Subject: San Jose Historic Museum Tours > The best part for costume lovers is the Museum's extensive costume > shop -- in addition to renting clothing and selling hats and other > accessories, they carry Past Patterns, Old World Enterprises and several > other recreation companies' stuff! The store is located in the small > costume museum-house in the park, and the small costume displays are > quite nice too. All the staff and tour guides dress in reproduction dress > (of varying accuracy) too. Its nice to see this group get some exposure! I wish I had known about this place years ago, but have just discovered it recently myself. I just wanted to mention something else...they also hold regular classes, some subjects included are hat making, corset construction, and walking skirts. I've taken the hat class and it was definately worthwhile. During the last class Julie invites a vendor in that sells a large variety of vintage lace, buttons and other trim suitable for hats. She also has a nice variety of hat blocks that she lets the class use. Give them a call, their number is separate from the Museum's, but you can call them and ask for the number to the costume shop run by Julie Peterson. They also participate in period events. The most recent being something called "Hands on History" (open to the public). But the best event by far was the "Civil War Memorial"...that was lots of fun. Julie is always looking for costumed volunteers! dianeg -- ____________________________ | | | Diane M. Grason | "The great thing in this world is | dianeg@csd.sgi.com | not so much where we stand as in | System Admin, CSD R&D | what direction we are moving." | (415) 390-1473 | | (415) 254-9279 (pager) | -Oliver Wendel Holms |____________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 11:01:19 +0000 From: "GILLIAN RICHARDS (02) 716 3712" Subject: Re: Red Lin(n)en re-dying WARNING! If you DO dye in the washing machine, be sure you run an "empty" wash through afterwards, just to make sure you've got rid of the last traces of dye. Unless, of course, you LIKE red streaks through your clothes, and a pink tinge in the towels. Gillian. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 95 19:09:18 PDT From: Allan Terry Subject: Period drawers Kat, Actually, I didn't refer to anything as "underpants." There are photos of two surviving pairs of late 16th-century drawers in Janet Arnold's _Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlocked_. Caroline recently mentioned on this list the discovery of a pair that may have belonged to Queen Elizabeth I. For earlier periods, Ruth Matilda Anderson's _Hispanic Costume 1480-1530_ has some discussion and pictures of drawers in that period. Also, I'm somewhat embarrassed to admit this, but my current reading material is Pietro Aretino's _Dialogues_, published in 1536 and 1556. Embarrassed, because although the book does contain social commentary and insights into Italian life of the period, it is largely pornograhy. In the dialogues, an older (retired?) whore tells her daughter how to practice this profession in light of the mother's experiece, told in the form of anecdotes. There is also a dialogue between an experienced bawd and a woman who wants to set up as one. Naturally, a work of this type contains references to underclothes. Just today I was reading, in an anecdote of how the bawd made a man attracted to a whore (who he thinks is a lady): . . . "just as she let a glove fall, and bending to pick it up, acted out a lovely little mishap. . .while picking up her glove, she also grasped the hem of her skirt and displayed so much of her dainty leg that the unhooded falcon could see her blue stockings and her black velvet drawers. . ." General histories of underwear through the ages are usually not very good for researching specific questions, such as exactly when women started wearing drawers. _Corsets and Crinolines_ focuses on structural garments, not other types of underclothes. A few months ago the question of "when did women wear drawers" was pretty thoroughly hashed over on h-costume. This discussion should still be in the archives. Fran Grimble ------------------------------ From: jennyb@pdd.3com.com Date: Thu, 13 Jul 95 08:46:16 BST Subject: gloves, leather colourants On the subject of gloves, my mother & her sister were taught by my grandmother that when going out in lace gloves they should sit for five minutes with their hands in the air so that the blood drained out of their hands & they looked fine & white rather than coarse & red. Seemed rather pointless to me as once one lowered one's hands the blood would promptly rush back again, my mother agreed on the whole, but thought it might make some difference if one had been working hard? Anyone else run across this custom? On the subject of leather colourants, thanks for the info. Catherine, does your leatherworker have any sources/refernces for the information that he/she is willing to share? Jennifer ------------------------------ From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 13 Jul 95 08:45:00 BST Subject: English Civil War A little while ago someone (and I've lost the mailing) was asking about patterns and sources for 1642 in England. I'm a bit surprised if they don't know, but the Sealed Knot and the English Civil War Society both have extensive Merchant set-ups associated with them. I have heard it said that at a big muster with associated Merchants Alley, a person could enter one end of the Alley in modern dress and emerge the other completely outfitted as a 17th century soldier. I know more people in the ECWS, who are supposed to be better than Sealed Knot on the living history side, and if someone is interested I will try and put them in touch. Caroline PS Fran Black velvet drawers! It sounds very uncomfortable. This may be an area where I continue to be 'authentick' even if the opposite is proved true! It's difficult enough in a long skirt but with a farthingale! ------------------------------ From: ehp648c@crusher.dukepower.com Subject: Re: Men and Women's button holes Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 07:54:05 -0400 (EDT) > Speaking of survival, woman have shirts that flap so that the left > breast is more readily exposed. This facilitates nursing on the left > side. You see, any woman who has nursed an ifant will tell you that > the babe gets placed more often on the left breast than on the right. > This leave the right hand free. Good for survival. I nursed two babies for a year apiece, and I did my best to rotate breasts evenly. (Images of Gypsy Rose Lee rise to my eyes, but you know what I mean.) Favoring one breast over the other invariably led to swelling and pain in the neglected breast. Betsy (moo) Perry ------------------------------ From: Staylace@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 09:13:21 -0400 Subject: Re: Buttonholes Yes, but men's clothing usually fastened in the front, not rear. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 06:10:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Maurine Roller Subject: San Jose Historical Museum costume shop I am a new subscriber and have enjoyed postings to date. I am very interested in the San Jose Hist. Museum costume shop and wonder if anyone could please post the address and phone number (hopefully 1-800 since I live in Nebraska!) for me. Thanks. Maurine Roller Subject: ECW clothing patterns Re: Susann's post about looking for 1642 shoe patterns. I'm afraid I can't help there (but I will also be looking for those replies). Does anyone know of some good sources for patterns for English Civil War era clothing (preferably available in the U.S.)? I could adapt from pictorial sources but actual patterns would be wonderful. I'm looking specifically for middle/merchant classes but anything would be helpful. I have tapes of the series 'By the Sword Divided' and was considering using some of the costumes in there as models, but I don't know how accurately the series was costumed (although it looked fairly good to me). Many thanks in advance for your help. Sharon =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= + Sharon L. Nelson sln@nccseq.noctrl.edu + | Systems Administrator, Computer Support | + North Central College, Naperville, IL 60540 + =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ------------------------------ From: KATHLEEN@ANSTEC.COM Date: Thu, 13 Jul 95 13:27:43 EST Subject: Re: ECW clothing patterns I'll probably get shot for this, but I use the Bolivian Milkmaid Jacket pattern from Folkwear Patterns for most of my 17th century stuff and I have won authenticity awards with my clothing. It's a good basic bodice pattern that you can use with different sleeve treatments (or use the top part of the sleeve pattern only). Just about any long skirt will do for a petticoat. You can shape the petticoat or just use rectangular pieces on a waistband or a drawstring. I don't know of any 17th century chemise patterns, but I'm sure some one does. Kathleen kathleen@anstec.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 95 14:23:37 PDT From: "SNORTON.US.ORACLE.COM" Subject: English Civil War Caroline, Would you publish contact information (address, phone, email, FAX, whatever) for Sealed Knot and the English Civil War Society? I think many of us are looking for merchants who sell costume pieces for gentlmen. I'm collecting information on outfitters and would be grateful for information and recommendations. Thank you. Sally Norton snorton@US.oracle.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 21:05:10 -0700 From: jastown@halcyon.com (Jas. Townsend & Son, Inc. ) Subject: bagging some silk Some friends and I are going to a Rev event in Wheaton, Il at the end of the month and want to do some shopping for fabric, especially silk, in Chicago on the way there. I'm planning on making a ballgown based on the 1745 painting of Barbara Campanini by Antoine Pesne - too cool. It has a leopard print (I refuse to believe that it was made of fur) bodice and sleeve caps and big fabric flowers stuck all over. I'll have to carry a copy because nobody will believe it's period. I have the address for Fishman's (anybody willing to attempt directions from an easterly approach?). Is there any place else you might recommend we check out? Please e-mail me directly so's not to clutter the list - thanks in advance! Theta @jastown ------------------------------ From: Mrs C S Yeldham Date: 14 Jul 95 08:52:00 BST Subject: English civil War Since there seems to be quite a bit of interest in English Civil War sources, I will go through my contacts and try and get the best sources who would not mind being contacted. This may take a few days since most of my contacts are currently at Kentwell in the 16th century! Caroline ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 19:48:59 +0800 From: bill@iinet.com.au (Bill and Gaynor McConnell) Subject: satin Brief question... Does anyone know when and where satin was first produced? Gaynor ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 13:03:19 +0100 (BST) From: LAURENCE K Subject: Costumes on CD-ROM Earlier this year there was some discussion in the rec.crafts.misc newsgroup about a history of fashion or costume on CD-ROM. Someone wanted to know if such a multimedia CD-ROM existed, and several other people offered their ideas about what features/content would be desireable. I'm considering doing a feasability study on such a product as a thesis for my MBA (I live in London, England, where a lot of the sources for such a CD-ROM are readily available), and so I'd like to resume the debate. Does anyone know if any kind of "fashion" CD-ROM currently exists? What about software to help consumers design their own clothes? If such a CD-ROM was to be developed, what would you like it to do? Assuming it had the history of fashion as its basis, what interactive features would you like to see? The technology exists, for example, to enter your measurements and a scanned photograph of your face, and then see what you would look like in any costume/outfit on the disk. Would this be any use, or merely fun? Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated. Please email me directly if you think this subject is off topic for this mailing list. Many thanks, Kevin Laurence K.Laurence@city.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 09:29:16 -0400 From: Joe Marfice Subject: Re: Men and Women's button holes On Tue, 11 Jul 1995 John Sek wrote: >While salvaging War of 1812 uniforms by turning them inside out (a >practice that was used by the British army during that period as well) >my wife notice that the button holes will of course end up on the >opposite side. As we know in today's fashions, men's and women's button >holes are on opposite sides to each others. The question my wife Jane >has asked, when did this (can we call it a tradition?) started and why? We had a rather lengthy thread on this topic that began (I think) on 26 Jan 95, with several widely varying theories: Women had servants to dress them. (But men had servants dress them, too) Men needed access to their swords. (But men's garments are easier for right-handed people to open; this doesn't explain the women's mode) The industrial textile revolution a/o modern marketing "decided" on this for us. (This for various potential reasons) At any rate, there appears to be evidence of both M & F clothing made with examples of both L & R buttons at least through the last century. So, while there may be trends in historical periods, the tradition was not solidified until (from a Medievalist's perspective :{) very recently. To retrieve the relevant digests, send email to: majordomo@lunch.engr.sgi.com and include in the body of the letter: get h-costume where is hcos.950126 for the 26 Jan edition, etc. I'm not sure how long the thread lasted, but it went on for a while. Try including index h-costume to obtain the (you guessed it! ;{), and then ask for the rest of the thread. Or, if you'd rather, I'll send you my (incomplete) copy of this thread (I only saved what _I_ felt was relevant to me). Warning: It's not short. Your servant, | Broom, at The Lady Perrine | aka Joe Marfice | Ministerium honor est. \|/ which means "This end up." /|\ 513-222-2330 233 Perrine Street //|\\ af289@dayton.wright.edu Dayton (my fayre citee), OH 45410 ------------------------------ From: dlxibm!Liz_Jones@SMTPGWY Date: Fri, 14 Jul 95 09:34:33 EST Subject: Mens/Womens buttonholes Regarding the start of preference of one side versus the other for buttonholes on mens or womens clothing: I can offer the fact that in Patterns of Fashion 1560-1620 by Janet Arnold, the men's doublets of circa 1600 still show either side being used. I cannot recall if they differed in nationality, however, as this may have influenced the choice. ------------------------------ End of Volume 343 -----------------------